Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Lord Glentoran · 11-08-2019 11:01am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are making repeated assertions with little to back them up

...

Point of fact, it would be cheaper for the exchequer to pay for taxis for the current users than to keep the line open.

Be fascinating to see something to back that assertion up. But then again, the railways in Ireland are dead and all need to be handed over to the cycling fraternity, now.

Sam Russell · 11-08-2019 11:24am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

You are making repeated assertions with little to back them up

As a matter of clarification, posts in that Facebook group talking about the open section point to the lack of usage, the ridership being far, FAR, below the original projections, the insane subsidies required to keep it open and the farcical proposal to extend the line given all of those facts.

Point of fact, it would be cheaper for the exchequer to pay for taxis for the current users than to keep the line open.

Be fascinating to see something to back that assertion up. But then again, the railways in Ireland are dead and all need to be handed over to the cycling fraternity, now.

It is very hard to back up any figures regarding Ennis to Athenry because no figures are published for ridership.

Irish Rail sell tickets for this line - even for those with FTP. So in theory they know the loading of each train and each station. Now season tickets are over this, but even then they know how many they sell.

So why no figures?

end of the road · 11-08-2019 3:28pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is very hard to back up any figures regarding Ennis to Athenry because no figures are published for ridership.

Irish Rail sell tickets for this line - even for those with FTP. So in theory they know the loading of each train and each station. Now season tickets are over this, but even then they know how many they sell.

So why no figures?

because the service is galway to limerick. there are no ennis athenry specific services. even the ennis athenry line is not a separate line but the middle section of the galway to limerick line. so it's the figure traveling from galway to limerick that is relevant. and that figure is decent.

Sam Russell · 11-08-2019 5:02pm

end of the road wrote: »

because the service is galway to limerick. there are no ennis athenry specific services. even the ennis athenry line is not a separate line but the middle section of the galway to limerick line. so it's the figure traveling from galway to limerick that is relevant. and that figure is decent.

Limerick to Galway by BE is 1 hr 20 min, on an hourly service, whereas on the train it is 2 hrs 15 min on a four or five services per day (direct service). They do a service with three changes, but that is nuts (3hrs 45 min).

dowlingm · 11-08-2019 5:24pm

March 2010
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/limerick-galway-train-back-on-track-after-34-years-1.645091
August 2010
https://m.facebook.com/BusEireann/posts/105612506162274

One of those times when you would really wish BE was subject to FOI.

end of the road · 11-08-2019 6:18pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Limerick to Galway by BE is 1 hr 20 min, on an hourly service,

1 hour and 20 minutes in absolute perfect conditions perhapse. i doubt that is being achieved at the height of rush hour. either way as good as the service may be for those who want buses and who wish to use them, it means nothing for the rail users who have no intentions of using buses.

Sam Russell wrote: »

whereas on the train it is 2 hrs 15 min on a four or five services per day (direct service). They do a service with three changes, but that is nuts (3hrs 45 min).

they do a service with 3 changes on the galway to limerick line? where are these changes?
or are you talking about going via athlone and portarlington which, while being an option, is probably not a way many would choose to do the journey, and is tbh scraping under the barrel in terms of an argument against a rail service between the 2 cities.

Sam Russell · 11-08-2019 6:42pm

end of the road wrote: »

1 hour and 20 minutes in absolute perfect conditions perhapse. i doubt that is being achieved at the height of rush hour. either way as good as the service may be for those who want buses and who wish to use them, it means nothing for the rail users who have no intentions of using buses.

There is a motorway - M18 - which should help.

they do a service with 3 changes on the galway to limerick line? where are these changes?
or are you talking about going via athlone and portarlington which, while being an option, is probably not a way many would choose to do the journey, and is tbh scraping under the barrel in terms of an argument against a rail service between the 2 cities.

There are few services, I did not count the 'change at Port Arlington' as usable.

I must go down and try the Ennis to Galway section. I have got the Limerick Junction to Ennis, and found the 'change' at Limerick Colbert was just a change of direction, not a change of train - quite quaint, almost 19th century Percy French - ('Are you right there, now Michael, are you right').

Greaney · 11-08-2019 9:10pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a motorway - M18 - which should help.).

What if..

You don't drive
You don't have a car
You're disabled and are not allowed to drive
You're banned and not allowed to drive

And by the way... most people prefer train travel to buses. If it were more affordable like on the continent it'd be used more in a shot. I don't mind taking longer on a journey for the comfort of a train. (Buses can smell of vomit and dettol)

Muckyboots · 11-08-2019 9:15pm

Greaney wrote: »

Bikes and rail really mix well. It's easier to take yer bike on the train and then pedal out to where ever you work. Some folk don't drive, don't have a car, need public transport, simple as.

Athenry has more to gain in the line of tourism and day tripping than any other town in the catchment area of the Quiet Man Greenway. The business people there know this. If you are from Athenry and you can't see this you should step back and take a more holistic look. Having the railway feeding in from Dublin, Limerick and Galway to a "greenway town" make it an absolute no brainer for Athenry.
Tuam doesn't want or need the railway. The town is especially well served with public transport by buses.
Claremorris doesn't have the population, or need, to justify a rail link to Athenry.

Greaney · 11-08-2019 9:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You are making repeated assertions with little to back them up

As a matter of clarification, posts in that Facebook group talking about the open section point to the lack of usage, the ridership being far, FAR, below the original projections, the insane subsidies required to keep it open and the farcical proposal to extend the line given all of those facts.

Point of fact, it would be cheaper for the exchequer to pay for taxis for the current users than to keep the line open.

Point of fact, I use that train line and it's well used. It gets more used as time goes on.
Point of fact, I've gotten of the train in Athenry, heading for Limerick with folk sitting on the floor because of lack of seats. (after 4pm)
Point of fact, the train is used by Students to go to school & College in Gort & Athenry and all the towns between, as well as workers.

Seriously, you think taxis are a solution for mass transit?

All mass transit is subsidised, so is...
Childcare
Education
Road infrastructure
Water infrastructure
Street lighting

The point of mass transit is not to make money. The cost is recovered by making the West a more viable area for other investment & proper planning and development.

There is a cost to our huge car use. I can see we are both stuck in our opinions, you simply cannot see a use for rail that cannot be covered by buses. I've lived many times without access to use a car, both in Ireland and abroad.... and abroad is easier. Our public transport is shockingly bad

westtip · 11-08-2019 9:28pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is very hard to back up any figures regarding Ennis to Athenry because no figures are published for ridership.

Irish Rail sell tickets for this line - even for those with FTP. So in theory they know the loading of each train and each station. Now season tickets are over this, but even then they know how many they sell.

So why no figures?

The figures are not published unless you ask for them, I did recently in an FOI, and yes Irish Rail are well aware of the loadings on each train. They are attached as .pdf extract from the presentation made to EY by the greenway lobby. The detail is simple, the measure of intercity passengers using the route is those bums on seats inbetween Ennis/Athenry which are clearly the passengers doing Limerick/Galway/Limerick. I was told by a senior executive in Irish Rail they have meticulously kept records on performance of the WRC since day one. The stats tell a quite different story from the exagerated claims of 400,000 passengers on the WRC. These are the facts of the matte sittign on the desks of the analysts at EY.

Greaney · 11-08-2019 9:30pm

Muckyboots wrote: »

Athenry has more to gain in the line of tourism and day tripping than any other town in the catchment area of the Quiet Man Greenway. The business people there know this. If you are from Athenry and you can't see this you should step back and take a more holistic look. Having the railway feeding in from Dublin, Limerick and Galway to a "greenway town" make it an absolute no brainer for Athenry.

Tuam doesn't want or need the railway. The town is especially well served with public transport by buses.

Claremorris doesn't have the population, or need, to justify a rail link to Athenry.

I've worked in conjunction with tourism groups and festivals in Athenry and the bane of our life has been the empty shops, high rents, and lack of browsability. Athenry get the September bounce (yes it's a thing) from the over 55 market who choose to holiday after peak season and a huge number of them choose to travel by rail. As one local said, 'Athenry has had 'potential' for years.

Many in Athenry & Tuam would love rail but there's been a lot of bullying and witch-hunting on the subject of the Quiet Man Greenway, just look at how they've given out about Ballyglunin, or the abuse our politicians got, so we all know keep shtum.

westtip · 11-08-2019 9:40pm

end of the road wrote: »

because the service is galway to limerick. there are no ennis athenry specific services. even the ennis athenry line is not a separate line but the middle section of the galway to limerick line. so it's the figure traveling from galway to limerick that is relevant. and that figure is decent.

it is not "pretty decent" it is an abject failure, see the real stats as provided by Irish Rail.137,000 passenger journies on Ennis/Athenry, that is bums on seats that are travelling Limerick Galway Limerick - see the real detail in the .pdf posted. Those figures come direct from Irish Rail, they keep detailed figures and keep the Department fully up to date on the figures. You may be using the service and fair play to you, there may the odd full train on a Friday night but on the whole this route has been an abject failure and no government is going to throw good money after bad, get used to that idea, why do you think the rail review is happening?

Muckyboots · 11-08-2019 9:51pm

Greaney wrote: »

Many in Athenry & Tuam would love rail but there's been a lot of bullying and witch-hunting on the subject of the Quiet Man Greenway, just look at how they've given out about Ballyglunin, or the abuse our politicians got, so we all know keep shtum.

I take your point about the bullying and I detest even the whiff of it. Athenry has terrific rail connections and I don't think any reasonable person would try and undermine it. My point is that a connected greenway would add bells and whistles to it.

11-08-2019 11:45pm

Greaney wrote: »

I've worked in conjunction with tourism groups and festivals in Athenry and the bane of our life has been the empty shops, high rents, and lack of browsability. Athenry get the September bounce (yes it's a thing) from the over 55 market who choose to holiday after peak season and a huge number of them choose to travel by rail. As one local said, 'Athenry has had 'potential' for years.

Many in Athenry & Tuam would love rail but there's been a lot of bullying and witch-hunting on the subject of the Quiet Man Greenway, just look at how they've given out about Ballyglunin, or the abuse our politicians got, so we all know keep shtum.

The cries of bullying, good grief, its an opposing view, one shared by the majority in Tuam and Athenry. You may not like it. Every time the greenway voice grows there are cries of bullying from WOT folks. Simply being used as a distraction, I'll not speak to it any further than that.

As for the spend by the over 55's, you need to move with the times, the demographics you want to be targeting are those from 25 - 45. Those are the big spenders.

As for politicians, there have been downright dirty moves made by some who paid for it dearly with their seats at the last election. There's one other who will be losing his seat at the next election too.

westtip · 11-08-2019 11:49pm

Greaney wrote: »

Many in Athenry & Tuam would love rail but there's been a lot of bullying and witch-hunting on the subject of the Quiet Man Greenway, just look at how they've given out about Ballyglunin, or the abuse our politicians got, so we all know keep shtum.

Is that why 3,000 people took to streets of Tuam last September, I didn't notice any marches demanding the railway, apparently a lot of people in Ballyglunin would like to see the greenway happen, so the railway station could flourish, as for the abuse our politicians got, pray tell me are we talking about one politician who has been heavily criticised? Nobody is bullying anyone, so get over it.

end of the road · 12-08-2019 12:44am

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is a motorway - M18 - which should help.

they still have to go to the cities at either end. that is generally where the problems are and the problems would cost to much to fix. unless private cars were priced out.

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are few services, I did not count the 'change at Port Arlington' as usable.

where are the 3 changes you are refering to then?

Sam Russell wrote: »

I must go down and try the Ennis to Galway section. I have got the Limerick Junction to Ennis, and found the 'change' at Limerick Colbert was just a change of direction, not a change of train - quite quaint, almost 19th century Percy French - ('Are you right there, now Michael, are you right').

that's not an unusual happening. similar reversals happen at kilkenny and killarney.

end of the road · 12-08-2019 12:51am

Muckyboots wrote: »

Athenry has more to gain in the line of tourism and day tripping than any other town in the catchment area of the Quiet Man Greenway. The business people there know this. If you are from Athenry and you can't see this you should step back and take a more holistic look. Having the railway feeding in from Dublin, Limerick and Galway to a "greenway town" make it an absolute no brainer for Athenry.
Tuam doesn't want or need the railway. The town is especially well served with public transport by buses.
Claremorris doesn't have the population, or need, to justify a rail link to Athenry.

it doesn't matter whether they want the railway or not. it's not sustainable for the country to pander to the americanised spraul and the subsiquent large suades of road that is required to serve it, hence the town needs the railway to cut long term infrastructure costs, as in try and remove the need for more massively expensive road expansion should the town become another commuter town.
tuam is unlikely to be especially well served with public transport by buses, as if it was then there would hardly be any car traffic from the town.

westtip wrote: »

it is not "pretty decent" it is an abject failure, see the real stats as provided by Irish Rail.137,000 passenger journies on Ennis/Athenry, that is bums on seats that are travelling Limerick Galway Limerick - see the real detail in the .pdf posted. Those figures come direct from Irish Rail, they keep detailed figures and keep the Department fully up to date on the figures. You may be using the service and fair play to you, there may the odd full train on a Friday night but on the whole this route has been an abject failure and no government is going to throw good money after bad, get used to that idea, why do you think the rail review is happening?

the route is not an abject failure now. the trains are full as testified to by some regular users of which sadly i'm not one given i don't live in that part of the country.

jackofalltrades · 12-08-2019 5:28am

Greaney wrote: »

What if..

You don't drive
You don't have a car
You're disabled and are not allowed to drive
You're banned and not allowed to drive

You could take a bus.

And by the way... most people prefer train travel to buses.

Great if you prefer taking the train over taking a bus, then pay the difference in what it costs to run the service.

This country desperately needs a system that quantifies the value of a service and therein the level of subsidy that it receives.

jackofalltrades · 12-08-2019 5:32am

end of the road wrote: »

they still have to go to the cities at either end. that is generally where the problems are and the problems would cost to much to fix. unless private cars were priced out.

Looks like you've found one of the possible solutions to your problem there.

Isambard · 12-08-2019 8:16am

Greaney wrote: »

I've worked in conjunction with tourism groups and festivals in Athenry and the bane of our life has been the empty shops, high rents, and lack of browsability. Athenry get the September bounce (yes it's a thing) from the over 55 market who choose to holiday after peak season and a huge number of them choose to travel by rail. As one local said, 'Athenry has had 'potential' for years.

Many in Athenry & Tuam would love rail but there's been a lot of bullying and witch-hunting on the subject of the Quiet Man Greenway, just look at how they've given out about Ballyglunin, or the abuse our politicians got, so we all know keep shtum.

i thought Athenry already had rail, you're surely not suggesting the people of Tuam would use a rail link to browse the shops of Athenry.

westtip · 12-08-2019 9:43am

end of the road wrote: »

i

the route is not an abject failure now. the trains are full as testified to by some regular users of which sadly i'm not one given i don't live in that part of the country.

137,000 passengers are on Ennis/Athenry as measured by Irish Rail, go ask them it's easy bang in an FOI. Trains might be full on Friday afternoon in term time, you don't build railways to accomodate students for at most 35 Friday afternoons a year (I have taken a stab at 17 weeks holiday period); you say you don't live in that part of the country, there is also reported anecdotal evidence of trains rumbling through rail crossings on the route that waiting motorist have seen zero passengers.

Look, lets put something straight here, nobody in the greenway camp is advocating the closure of ennis athenry, people are saying its there its not going away but there is no need to extend north of Athenry, because the "Friday rush"proves there is a need for it. It is quite simply not a great success, it has improved a modicum, but not by much. Yes given there is evidence to suggest that the increase in services through Athenry has increased commuter traffic from Athenry/Oranmore, yes that is to be welcome, but the demographics north of Athenry simply do not stack up. What I really despair of with West on Track and the whole WRC lobby is the energy going into re-opening a line that will deliver very little for the west, if they were campaigning for electrification of Dublin Galway, Dublin Westport, Dublin Sligo, more double tracking for commuter stopping services from Athlone to Galway, and indeed Athlone - Dublin, more passing loops for all the freight they are talking about; then yes many many more people would support their cause, but the fixation with re-opening a single track line from a town the size of Claremorris to Athenry and on to Galway is an obsession they need to rid themselves of. I think its time for an alternative West on Track lobby group, that lobbies for what the west really needs for rail services.

Greaney · 12-08-2019 10:50am

Isambard wrote: »

i thought Athenry already had rail, you're surely not suggesting the people of Tuam would use a rail link to browse the shops of Athenry.

No, that's obviously silly

Athenry has rail and we love it. Many of us think others should have this terrific amenity as well.

1) We love it so much that a huge amount of folk have only one car, the commuter ticket is about 1/3 the price of running a second car
2) I assume folk from Tuam don't get off in Athenry but would be heading to Galway, Dublin, Limerick, Six mile bridge (they've a great Fleadh and the train has a great session going down

)
3) Because it's a very easy service for the disabled to use, many organisations have centres in Athenry ie; The Brothers of Charity and Independent Living Ireland.
4) IDA have a huge site in Ballygarraun. They had ear marked Athenry as one of the towns they want to develop one of their industrial parks in.

Athenry also have a bus service (private), this is handy for late night shifts etc. Even with a fairly decent bus service, the train is very busy.

Muckyboots · 12-08-2019 11:37am

Greaney wrote: »

2) I assume folk from Tuam don't get off in Athenry but would be heading to Galway, Dublin, Limerick, Six mile bridge (they've a great Fleadh and the train has a great session going down

Not possible- Tuam travellers, and the Claremorris commuter, would have to dismount and take the foot bridge over the track, change in Athenry to catch the next Dublin (or Limerick)-Galway service. It's just not a runner. Tuam doesn't want or need this kind of broken transport option. A greenway into Athenry is a much better proposal. The single track from Athenry to Galway is a barrier to more frequent services and a double looped track should be installed long before adding an unproven line in for the Mayo dot joiners.

Sligo eye · 12-08-2019 11:59am

Muckyboots wrote: »

Not possible- Tuam travellers, and the Claremorris commuter, would have to dismount and take the foot bridge over the track, change in Athenry to catch the next Dublin (or Limerick)-Galway service. It's just not a runner. Tuam doesn't want or need this kind of broken transport option. A greenway into Athenry is a much better proposal. The single track from Athenry to Galway is a barrier to more frequent services and a double looped track should be installed long before adding an unproven line in for the Mayo dot joiners.

And again you are missing the point about providing railway services. In most countries infrastructure drives development rather than the development driving infrastructure.

I do note the rather hysterical tone coming from those who choose to spend time online attacking railway development. It’s clear that they now realise the Greenway proposals are widely seen as purely an attempt to stop development in the West. We all know that dream is over; it would seem that they realise it is too.

12-08-2019 12:21pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

And again you are missing the point about providing railway services. In most countries infrastructure drives development rather than the development driving infrastructure.

I do note the rather hysterical tone coming from those who choose to spend time online attacking railway development. It’s clear that they now realise the Greenway proposals are widely seen as purely an attempt to stop development in the West. We all know that dream is over; it would seem that they realise it is too.

On the contrary. The extension from Ennis to Athenry did more damage to the cause of rail development than anything anyone else might say or do.

As for the greenway idea, it's been said all along, greenway now, both later. Once a line further north of Athenry becomes viable, sure, build it. But the majority of what's there now will need to be replaced so simply extend the width at that time to fit both the greenway and the rail line. It's done like that all the time in many places around the world.

Note, I'm talking as far as Tuam. The alignment beyond that needs to be redone from scratch if you want realistic speeds.

However, leaving it sit idle for another 40+ years "just because" is a criminal waste of a national asset and will just lead to encroachment and further degradation.

Greaney · 12-08-2019 12:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

On the contrary. The extension from Ennis to Athenry did more damage to the cause of rail development than anything anyone else might say or do.

As for the greenway idea, it's been said all along, greenway now, both later. Once a line further north of Athenry becomes viable, sure, build it. But the majority of what's there now will need to be replaced so simply extend the width at that time to fit both the greenway and the rail line. It's done like that all the time in many places around the world.

Look, there are other options and strategies to develop greenways around Athenry. I attended the meeting that happened before the one in the Raheen woods where we looked at easements etc. Some of us are currently looking at rights of way and roads that have 'disappeared' from public view. Linking to the Dublin-Galway velo would be smart. Personally, I'm giving The Quietman Greenway campaign a wide berth, it's quiet a negative campaign.

As for rail doing damage, I'm stunned at how you came to that conclusion. The Pres is jammed with cars every morning. They really are a huge disruption to the residents of Ballygarraun parking in front of gates etc. (maybe the new road being open will ease that now). I'd love to see the cycle & rail use developed more. I know students come from Oranmore, Craughwell/Ardrahan, and Attymon to go to school there.

Remember, the Western Rail Corridor have had folk lobbying on it for over 20 years. The Quietman greenway's been on the go for a year.

cdaly_ · 12-08-2019 1:23pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

You could take a bus.

Can Bus Eireann coaches take wheelchairs now?

serfboard · 12-08-2019 1:33pm

end of the road wrote: »

1 hour and 20 minutes in absolute perfect conditions perhapse.

I have been on that service when it did the journey from Limerick to Galway in 1 hour and 15 minutes.

end of the road wrote: »

either way as good as the service may be for those who want buses and who wish to use them, it means nothing for the rail users who have no intentions of using buses.

No intention of using a bus? So the rest of the citizens of this country should massively subsidise your journey simply because you prefer not to use a bus?

Greaney wrote: »

What if..
You don't drive Bus
You don't have a car Bus
You're disabled and are not allowed to drive - the one (tiny) group of passengers that cannot currently use regular buses. But we won't build train lines and run services simply to service this small group of people. Far better to provide a wheelchair-accessible mini-bus service.
You're banned and not allowed to drive Bus

And by the way... most people prefer train travel to buses. Sorry, your preference does not justify the spend.
...
I don't mind taking longer on a journey for the comfort of a train. Maybe you don't, but other people do.

(Buses can smell of vomit and dettol) And trains never do?

end of the road wrote: »

tuam is unlikely to be especially well served with public transport by buses

Completely ignorant statement. There are 40 buses a day from Tuam to Galway - how many more do you want?

Sligo eye wrote: »

I do note the rather hysterical tone coming from those who choose to spend time online attacking railway development.

That's a hilarious comment from someone who either has never read WOT statements or comments, or is projecting.

Sligo eye wrote: »

It’s clear that they now realise the Greenway proposals are widely seen as purely an attempt to stop development in the West.

"Widely seen" by who? The thousands who marched in Tuam demanding it? Show me an example of the widely seen you are referring to?

Sligo eye wrote: »

We all know that dream is over; it would seem that they realise it is too.

Again you're projecting, but you're right - the dream of a Train on the Athenry-Claremorris line is over, and WOT realise it.

Muckyboots · 12-08-2019 1:52pm

Sligo eye wrote: »

In most countries infrastructure drives development rather than the development driving infrastructure.
.

Correct but in this part of the country Monsignuers build airports on mountain tops for pilgrims. Railways are demanded for fulfilment of academic priests and belligerent politicians. Planned infrastructure has nothing to do with either.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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