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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion
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Truth is ShaneC I think we are all getting sick and tired of this on message boards, and FB and twitter etc, lets see the bloody report and get on with it, honestly I am really tired, if the report says the railway is the best idea since sliced white bread and will transform the economy then lets get on with in but can we at least see it ... we paid for it.
In the meantime great to see Marian Harkin come out in support of the greenway, a previous stalwart of West on Track, quite remarkable turn around in views. Well done Marian Harkin for listening and rationalising that takes courage. Thank you!
I agree with you to a point, but - and there's always a 'but' - but when you say "if the report says the railway is the best idea since sliced white bread and will transform the economy then lets get on with in but can we at least see it ... " then can I just point out that a country not-far-from-here has adopted that approach on a certain Other Matter and look at what following advice blindly got them....
Publish, yes, be damned, no.Ode To The Motorist
“And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road”
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Except of course they had no such reports, just "gut feel" that doing That Thing would be totally worth it and provide massive unspecified and unlikely-looking benefits. Remind you of anything?
Scrap the cap!
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It will pretty much end when the report is released, I'm told it is absolutely definitive in its conclusions. The western rail corridor has finally been put to bed by the consultants in a very damning report.
That's so weird because I heard something quiet different from that. My source is a gov. advisor and former public figure. I had heard that the report is neither damning or urgent regarding rail. And they suggested that government want to kick the can down the road and promises nothing to anyone.0 -
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That's so weird because I heard something quiet different from that. My source is a gov. advisor and former public figure. I had heard that the report is neither damning or urgent regarding rail. And they suggested that government want to kick the can down the road and promises nothing to anyone.
Nothing new there then so; however if the report is not urgent re the railway doesn't that exactly fit the greenway argument; not urgent in government parlance is never, and as we know doing nothing and promising maybe doesn't lose votes.0 -
Nothing new there then so; however if the report is not urgent re the railway doesn't that exactly fit the greenway argument; not urgent in government parlance is never, and as we know doing nothing and promising maybe doesn't lose votes.
So the call to release the report will be:
“What do we want?”
“Something mediocre”
“When do we want it?”
“Whenever you can get round to it”0 -
she has had a genuine change of opinion based on reasoned argument
Galway County Councillor and current East Galway Dail Candidate Pete Roche is another. He was formerly in favour of the railway, but is now in favour of the Greenway - he was an attendee at the infamous Western Inter County Railway Commitee thingys.Hotblack Desiato wrote: »A rare thing in Irish politics, unfortunately.0 -
A few considerations:
1. The "Rail Report": I think we know by now (from hearsay information we've all received from folk that have read it), that it will neither be a glowing call for reinstating rail service, nor will it damn that option and recommend abandonment of the ROW. It will likely be along the lines of the prior review, where the line has "reactivation potential," but is deemed to not quite meet the cost/benefit threshold for reactivation. There will be nuggets for both sides. So what happens if the report we get is not actionable? Probably nothing at all, and that is unfortunate. But let's not deceive ourselves with the idea that building a greenway somehow "preserves" the ROW. Greenways do not preserve rail corridors...they erase them permanently. I would challenge anyone here to provide a "rails-to-trails-to-rails" example in the modern world. I understand that IE have made various overtures regarding revocable licenses; however, if there is any real possibility of reactivation, you'll never get a license.
2. The "Quiet Man Greenway" is not "shovel-ready." It requires planning permission, which likely entails the preparation of an Environmental Impact Assessment Report. Even if there was 100% political consensus from all stakeholders (including IE), and if funding was secured to pursue entitlements, and if a tender was prepared and issued tomorrow to start that planning process, we are still looking at a minimum of 18-24 months before full planning permission is secured (if everything goes smoothly). My point here is that a greenway is not an easy accomplishment, and the idea that it would just fall from the sky if a few politicians would stand aside is just asinine.
3. The "Quiet Man Greenway" is not inexpensive. Even if IE grant a license to develop a bicycle trail, there are significant costs for developing the project. The greenway is "iffy" (at best) with regard to the scenery and connectivity criteria of the National Greenways Strategy, so funding is not garunteed. Ongoing operation and maintenance costs will compete with local authority roads budgets, which are woefully inadequate.
4. The "Quiet Man Greenway" will require land acquisition. There is a fallacy circulating that all of the land necessary is entirely in public ownership. While that's true of the main corridor, it is not true for access roads that are needed at each intersession with a public roadway, and there are dozens of these along the way. CPOs may still be required to meet design standards with regard to access.
5. There are no ancillary uses of the WRC. I forget where it was, but someone was claiming that the ROW would be suitable for either a natural gas pipeline and/or for a corridor for "industrial strength" broadband. Both were recently developed from Mayo to Athenry in a separate corridor several miles to the west, so there is likely no need for parallel services in our lifetime. Even if there were a need for such projects, they would be completely separate from a rail or greenway project, and could be advanced without either.
Anyway, just a few thoughts this evening. My personal view is that the greenway campaign's best bet is to look at the combined costs/benefits of a side-by-side alignment from Athenry to Tuam, and that such an idea may be the only way that either makes it over the finish line.0 -
So the call to release the report will be:
“What do we want?”
“Something mediocre”
“When do we want it?”
“Whenever you can get round to it”
eh? I just don't comprehend what you are implying, I am sure the report will be a fudge, it was always destined to be so, the call for the release of the report is really quite simple, We have paid half a million for it, its ours, let us see it. Remember a vote in Galway coco about what, 2 years ago and it was deferred until the report is ready, the report hadn't even been started then, Canney said it was imminent, he was lying. So much has been made of this report we are entitled to see it, so I have no idea what the thinking is in your comments/0 -
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EZ you have made a lot of effort there so deserve a response at leastA few considerations:
1. The "Rail Report": I think we know by now (from hearsay information we've all received from folk that have read it), that it will neither be a glowing call for reinstating rail service, nor will it damn that option and recommend abandonment of the ROW. It will likely be along the lines of the prior review, where the line has "reactivation potential," but is deemed to not quite meet the cost/benefit threshold for reactivation. There will be nuggets for both sides. So what happens if the report we get is not actionable? Probably nothing at all, and that is unfortunate. But let's not deceive ourselves with the idea that building a greenway somehow "preserves" the ROW. Greenways do not preserve rail corridors...they erase them permanently. I would challenge anyone here to provide a "rails-to-trails-to-rails" example in the modern world. I understand that IE have made various overtures regarding revocable licenses; however, if there is any real possibility of reactivation, you'll never get a license.
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You are probably right it will be a monumental fudge with a bit given here and bit given there, and you are right nothing will happen.
A greenway does protect the route in public ownership in perpetuity, maybe it will never return to rail, it probably won't because the long distance nature of the greenway will make it a resounding success. Re the license model the wording is pretty watertight but has never been tested (no comber please)2. The "Quiet Man Greenway" is not "shovel-ready." It requires planning permission, which likely entails the preparation of an Environmental Impact Assessment Report. Even if there was 100% political consensus from all stakeholders (including IE), and if funding was secured to pursue entitlements, and if a tender was prepared and issued tomorrow to start that planning process, we are still looking at a minimum of 18-24 months before full planning permission is secured (if everything goes smoothly). My point here is that a greenway is not an easy accomplishment, and the idea that it would just fall from the sky if a few politicians would stand aside is just asinine.
No one ever said it would be easy, and yes the planning permission and all the technical rigmarole has to be sorted, this is only getting started now in Sligo but it will happen there and once it is out the way building will start, the Sligo greenway will probably open in about 4 years time.3. The "Quiet Man Greenway" is not inexpensive. Even if IE grant a license to develop a bicycle trail, there are significant costs for developing the project. The greenway is "iffy" (at best) with regard to the scenery and connectivity criteria of the National Greenways Strategy, so funding is not garunteed. Ongoing operation and maintenance costs will compete with local authority roads budgets, which are woefully inadequate.
Relative terms the cost of a greenway on closed railway is small change, re the scenery argument go to the QMG facebook page, people get very touchy on the no scenery argument, personally I think it is a load of old bollox. Re maintenance costs of a greenway they are going to exist but will be neglgble.4. The "Quiet Man Greenway" will require land acquisition. There is a fallacy circulating that all of the land necessary is entirely in public ownership. While that's true of the main corridor, it is not true for access roads that are needed at each intersession with a public roadway, and there are dozens of these along the way. CPOs may still be required to meet design standards with regard to access.
Not insurmountable problems, or at least not enough to stop the project from happening.5. There are no ancillary uses of the WRC. I forget where it was, but someone was claiming that the ROW would be suitable for either a natural gas pipeline and/or for a corridor for "industrial strength" broadband. Both were recently developed from Mayo to Athenry in a separate corridor several miles to the west, so there is likely no need for parallel services in our lifetime. Even if there were a need for such projects, they would be completely separate from a rail or greenway project, and could be advanced without either.
Anyway, just a few thoughts this evening. My personal view is that the greenway campaign's best bet is to look at the combined costs/benefits of a side-by-side alignment from Athenry to Tuam, and that such an idea may be the only way that either makes it over the finish line.
I have put those arguments up, disagree with you on fibre optic cabling, why not have this route in public ownership as back up to any other route that pre-exist.
Your final comment re side by side, a noble idea, but it is only noble if the railway is ever going to happen. It isn't but the fact the report may say it may be tenable in ten or twenty years time will be enough for West on Track to stop it.
In short I think nothing will happen, but at least the railway campaign will be happy that thousands of people who want a greenway will have been denied.
Hey ho on we go.0 -
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I have put those arguments up, disagree with you on fibre optic cabling, why not have this route in public ownership as back up to any other route that
Am I right in saying a fibre optic cable travels along the railway network already? Maybe not along the closed section but along the operating network.0 -
ShaneC1600 wrote: »Am I right in saying a fibre optic cable travels along the railway network already? Maybe not along the closed section but along the operating network.
Multiple. BT, Irish Rail Telecoms and some spare duct space depending on where.
I believe the only disused section to have it is the North Kerry alignment
TII have ducts on all semi recent build roads sot there is already a duct to Tuam but the schemes north of there on the N17 that are done are too old.0 -
A greenway does protect the route in public ownership in perpetuity, maybe it will never return to rail, it probably won't because the long distance nature of the greenway will make it a resounding success. Re the license model the wording is pretty watertight but has never been tested (no comber please)
My point was that the greenway campaign was claiming that the "international best practice to protect closed railways" was to convert them to greenways, and that "the railway will always take precedence in the future." Does this ring a bell? I would submit this has nowhere occurred, ever, and that it is disingenuous to suggest that "trail-to-rails" is possible in the real world.No one ever said it would be easy, and yes the planning permission and all the technical rigmarole has to be sorted, this is only getting started now in Sligo but it will happen there and once it is out the way building will start, the Sligo greenway will probably open in about 4 years time.
The discourse I am seeing from the greenway campaign is that there are just a few politicians that are "greenway blockers," and if we vote them out, we'll get our greenway. That's an unfair portrayal.Relative terms the cost of a greenway on closed railway is small change, re the scenery argument go to the QMG facebook page, people get very touchy on the no scenery argument, personally I think it is a load of old bollox. Re maintenance costs of a greenway they are going to exist but will be neglgble.
No cost numbers have been published, so I cannot comment whether they are small or negligible. With regard to scenery, in fairness, it was one of your own that misquoted a Mayo Councillor to the effect of, "there is nothing to see in East Galway," that caused the annoyance amongst your ranks. Perhaps in the next revision to the Galway County Development Plan, your group can lobby to have the landscape value rating of East Galway reclassified from "Low" to "Outstanding?"Not insurmountable problems, or at least not enough to stop the project from happening.
Agreed.I have put those arguments up, disagree with you on fibre optic cabling, why not have this route in public ownership as back up to any other route that pre-exist.
It's a red herring. Nobody is advocating for ceding the WRC back to adjacent landowners. If someone wants to run fibre along that route, they can do that independently of any rail, trail, or rail-trail project.Your final comment re side by side, a noble idea, but it is only noble if the railway is ever going to happen. It isn't but the fact the report may say it may be tenable in ten or twenty years time will be enough for West on Track to stop it.
In short I think nothing will happen, but at least the railway campaign will be happy that thousands of people who want a greenway will have been denied
My personal (and completely biased) opinion is that there is adequate travel demand to justify reopening the line to Tuam. The centrality of the Tuam station is an amazing opportunity because most of the town core can walk to it. The 20+ buses to Galway each way provide a good service, but rail will beat it during peak times.0 -
Multiple. BT, Irish Rail Telecoms and some spare duct space depending on where.
I believe the only disused section to have it is the North Kerry alignment
TII have ducts on all semi recent build roads sot there is already a duct to Tuam but the schemes north of there on the N17 that are done are too old.
Yep, ESAT (now BT) ran fibre along the North Kerry line in the late 90s and it's been in use since then. Didn't stop the scummy land-grabbers extending their gardens/farmyards over sections of the permanent way though.
Fortunately they've mostly been dealt with and construction work on the next phases of the GST (Tralee-Fenit & Listowel-Abbeyfeale) is currently progressing.0 -
My point was that the greenway campaign was claiming that the "international best practice to protect closed railways" was to convert them to greenways, and that "the railway will always take precedence in the future." Does this ring a bell? I would submit this has nowhere occurred, ever, and that it is disingenuous to suggest that "trail-to-rails" is possible in the real world.
The discourse I am seeing from the greenway campaign is that there are just a few politicians that are "greenway blockers," and if we vote them out, we'll get our greenway. That's an unfair portrayal.
No cost numbers have been published, so I cannot comment whether they are small or negligible. With regard to scenery, in fairness, it was one of your own that misquoted a Mayo Councillor to the effect of, "there is nothing to see in East Galway," that caused the annoyance amongst your ranks. Perhaps in the next revision to the Galway County Development Plan, your group can lobby to have the landscape value rating of East Galway reclassified from "Low" to "Outstanding?"
Agreed.
It's a red herring. Nobody is advocating for ceding the WRC back to adjacent landowners. If someone wants to run fibre along that route, they can do that independently of any rail, trail, or rail-trail project.
My personal (and completely biased) opinion is that there is adequate travel demand to justify reopening the line to Tuam. The centrality of the Tuam station is an amazing opportunity because most of the town core can walk to it. The 20+ buses to Galway each way provide a good service, but rail will beat it during peak times.
I can confirm that International Best Practice is actually to reopen railway routes and undertake a completely thorough planning exercise that builds housing and Zones business districts adjacent to the route.0 -
You put "international best practice" with caps. I presume so there is a link that you can share.I can confirm that International Best Practice is actually to reopen railway routes and undertake a completely thorough planning exercise that builds housing and Zones business districts adjacent to the route.0 -
Muckyboots wrote: »You put "international best practice" with caps. I presume so there is a link that you can share.
Yes indeed I can share a few links. Have a look at https://www.campaignforbordersrail.org/
https://www.eastwestrail.org.uk/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau–Canfranc_railway
https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/re-opening-ivanhoe-rail-line-3628607.amp
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=122387330 -
I can confirm that International Best Practice is actually to reopen railway routes and undertake a completely thorough planning exercise that builds housing and Zones business districts adjacent to the route.
And you think that is going to happen in the land of one off housing in rural ireland, the horse has already bolted Sligo Eye, well and truly over the horizon.0 -
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Proper planning would be to develop cities for people who want to work in cities and not stringing development along meandering railway lines forcing long commutes on people.0
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Muckyboots wrote: »You put "international best practice" with caps. I presume so there is a link that you can share.
I presume there is a link you can share where greenways are happily handed over to rail use.0 -
Lord Glentoran wrote: »I presume there is a link you can share where greenways are happily handed over to rail use.
You'll find me an easy target on this point. I think that the whole "happily handed over" argument is a red herring in this case. The WRC is unfit for modern rail. The case of return to former use is merely a housekeeping issue for the property owners. The argument serves only to empower the small number or railway nostalgics with some kind of faux authority.
Anyway, I think Eastwest might have pointed to some rail line in New Zealand where they returned it from trail to rail after discovering a new vein of gold in the mountains that it served. Frankly though, it doesn't really matter.
The fact is that WRC doesn't belong to railway advocates.
If you search back you may find that this argument totally contradicts something I said in a an earlier thread.0 -
Some interesting numbers coming from the Waterford greenway.
https://www.clareecho.ie/stars-aligning-for-west-clare-greenway/lans for the Waterford Greenway commenced in 2004, Reddan outlined. It had 250,000 visitors in 2018 and 290,000 last year. During the Council’s trip, they used three businesses on the day, these included Waterford Greenway Bike Hire Company which has twelve full-time staff and 10 part-time staff, hiring out 300 bikes per day and 500 on peak days, there are an additional 12 bike hire companies on the route.
They also stopped at Coach House Coffee in Kilmacthomas which opened in 2017. The previously derelict building opened in 2017 and in the space of two years has gone from having twenty six seats to two hundred, their staff has also increased from five to twenty five with forty five people employed in high season. “Kilmacthomas has gone from having one to seven cafes in two years, 120 people are employed from Kilmacthomas,” Reddan stated. She pointed out that visitors will stay 65km away from the Greenway during peak times.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Some interesting numbers coming from the Waterford greenway.
It looks amazing. It certainly ticks all of the boxes.0 -
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Most of those proposals are extant operational freight lines that just need stations and rolling stock.0
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£500m for 25 miles?0
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half a billion in the spin doctors pockets and not an inch of railway0
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it was the fibre that saved that route in the end, otherwise it was gone.Yep, ESAT (now BT) ran fibre along the North Kerry line in the late 90s and it's been in use since then. Didn't stop the scummy land-grabbers extending their gardens/farmyards over sections of the permanent way though.
Fortunately they've mostly been dealt with and construction work on the next phases of the GST (Tralee-Fenit & Listowel-Abbeyfeale) is currently progressing.
Even at that, there is one guy who persists in using the greenway as a cattle yard.0 -
meanwhile, a claim on fb just now states that poiticians of all parties have got behind re-opening the WRC.
So where does the truth lie? Supporters of the Greenway claim on here that only a couple of politiicans back the WRC
So where does the truth lie? Lying to your own supporters is very foolish0 -
meanwhile, a claim on fb just now states that poiticians of all parties have got behind re-opening the WRC.
So where does the truth lie? Supporters of the Greenway claim on here that only a couple of politiicans back the WRC
So where does the truth lie? Lying to your own supporters is very foolish
Very good question, Isambard. And may I post a rather long-winded political response, even though I will not be voting on the the 8th due to circumstances beyond my control.
It is claimed that one of the chief Quiet Man Greenway "champions" is Minister Ciarán Cannon (FG), likely because of his mainstream and social media presence, and perhaps by his attendance at the Tuam greenway event last year. But has he really been the QMG's chief advocate? Or (as I would submit) has he inadvertently doomed it by a prior populous intervention?
Let's turn the clock back to 2015, long before the idea of greenway spandex dollars danced in the minds of East Galway folk. At that time, the issue was a far away greenway in Kerry - one that farmers were none-to-happy about, because it relied heavily on a CPO approach. (As an aside, are not CPOs warranted if they are needed to deliver such valuable tourism infrastructure)?
In waltzes Minister Cannon, who astutely acknowledges the bad vibes over the Kerry CPOs, and sees an opportunity to cash in on the same controversy that undoubtedly was going to occur with the Athlone to Galway greenway, which was then only in the infancy of planning. Minister Cannon (as a sympathetic representative of rural farmers - the constituency du jour) cleverly meets with the landowners and reinforces their fears that CPOs are just awful, that their lands would be severed, and that they "just weren't being listened to." He offers no alternative route or process, other than a generic one which would just suit everyone to a tee (completely ignoring the stark reality that the only way you will get a square metre of a Galway farmer's land is by a CPO). And the conclusion of Minister Cannon's intervention is a call to Minister for Transport to abandon the greenway altogether!
"Having met with numerous landowners I am now in no doubt that the current route is completely unviable and should simply be abandoned as an option for the delivery of a new greenway” - Minister Ciarán Cannon (https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/)
Fast forward to 2020. We now have a National Greenways Strategy, where the blocked Galway to Dublin greenway is the "centerpiece." We also have the same EuroVelo Route 2 (The Capitols Route) that is equally blocked (hopefully just delayed) similarly by Minister Cannon's interference. So it's no surprise that the good minister wholeheartedly supports a cheap and easy substitute greenway in East Galway (scavenging a rail line with reactivation potential) to compensate for his prior blunder.
But it's too late. The Galway-to-Athlone link is sufficiently mired in controversy to the degree that delivery will be delayed for years. That is an unfortunate turn of events for Minister Cannon, as the defunct route was to pass though his own town of Loughrea! And the irony of it all is that the absence of that Greenway negates the potential for connectivity to the QMG idea. So, perhaps the question to be asked this election is, "Who is the only candidate that has called on a Minister for Transport to "abandon" a fully supported and funded greenway that is in the National Strategy and part of the EuroVelo?" Minister Ciarán Cannon - that's who, because he wanted to placate East Galway farmers.
One thing that can be said about the Quiet Man Greenway campaign is that they are on constant alert for deception, trickery, tomfoolery, and the like. They accuse Sean Canney (whom I've never met) of this, even though he has constantly and simply stated that he supports Rail for Tuam, and also greenways where possible. The only "fudge" I have seen in this process so far is Minister Cannon prying his way into a meeting with the consultant preparing (what should be) an independent rail review, with bogus ideas and statistics, to the effect that there are "9 passengers per train from Ennis to Limerick." Honestly!
So we do need to ask ourselves whether Minister Ciarán Cannon is really so wonderful, and whether Sean Canney is really so awful, or are we perhaps deceived by a seasoned politician conveniently using a FB group administrated by out-of-county spite mongers?0 -
Can I interest you in a tinfoil hat, they come in many sizes0
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Deleted User wrote: »Can I interest you in a tinfoil hat, they come in many sizes
And you are quick to fashion them for those with whom you disagree.0 -
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There are mischief makers on both sides. This is top drawer in fairness to you. Practically all of it balderdash though.Very good question, Isambard. And may I post a rather long-winded political response, even though I will not be voting on the the 8th due to circumstances beyond my control.
It is claimed that one of the chief Quiet Man Greenway "champions" is Minister Ciarán Cannon (FG), likely because of his mainstream and social media presence, and perhaps by his attendance at the Tuam greenway event last year. But has he really been the QMG's chief advocate? Or (as I would submit) has he inadvertently doomed it by a prior populous intervention?
Let's turn the clock back to 2015, long before the idea of greenway spandex dollars danced in the minds of East Galway folk. At that time, the issue was a far away greenway in Kerry - one that farmers were none-to-happy about, because it relied heavily on a CPO approach. (As an aside, are not CPOs warranted if they are needed to deliver such valuable tourism infrastructure)?
In waltzes Minister Cannon, who astutely acknowledges the bad vibes over the Kerry CPOs, and sees an opportunity to cash in on the same controversy that undoubtedly was going to occur with the Athlone to Galway greenway, which was then only in the infancy of planning. Minister Cannon (as a sympathetic representative of rural farmers - the constituency du jour) cleverly meets with the landowners and reinforces their fears that CPOs are just awful, that their lands would be severed, and that they "just weren't being listened to." He offers no alternative route or process, other than a generic one which would just suit everyone to a tee (completely ignoring the stark reality that the only way you will get a square metre of a Galway farmer's land is by a CPO). And the conclusion of Minister Cannon's intervention is a call to Minister for Transport to abandon the greenway altogether!
"Having met with numerous landowners I am now in no doubt that the current route is completely unviable and should simply be abandoned as an option for the delivery of a new greenway” - Minister Ciarán Cannon (https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/)
Fast forward to 2020. We now have a National Greenways Strategy, where the blocked Galway to Dublin greenway is the "centerpiece." We also have the same EuroVelo Route 2 (The Capitols Route) that is equally blocked (hopefully just delayed) similarly by Minister Cannon's interference. So it's no surprise that the good minister wholeheartedly supports a cheap and easy substitute greenway in East Galway (scavenging a rail line with reactivation potential) to compensate for his prior blunder.
But it's too late. The Galway-to-Athlone link is sufficiently mired in controversy to the degree that delivery will be delayed for years. That is an unfortunate turn of events for Minister Cannon, as the defunct route was to pass though his own town of Loughrea! And the irony of it all is that the absence of that Greenway negates the potential for connectivity to the QMG idea. So, perhaps the question to be asked this election is, "Who is the only candidate that has called on a Minister for Transport to "abandon" a fully supported and funded greenway that is in the National Strategy and part of the EuroVelo?" Minister Ciarán Cannon - that's who, because he wanted to placate East Galway farmers.
One thing that can be said about the Quiet Man Greenway campaign is that they are on constant alert for deception, trickery, tomfoolery, and the like. They accuse Sean Canney (whom I've never met) of this, even though he has constantly and simply stated that he supports Rail for Tuam, and also greenways where possible. The only "fudge" I have seen in this process so far is Minister Cannon prying his way into a meeting with the consultant preparing (what should be) an independent rail review, with bogus ideas and statistics, to the effect that there are "9 passengers per train from Ennis to Limerick." Honestly!
So we do need to ask ourselves whether Minister Ciarán Cannon is really so wonderful, and whether Sean Canney is really so awful, or are we perhaps deceived by a seasoned politician conveniently using a FB group administrated by out-of-county spite mongers?0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Only those with whackadoodle conspiracy theories with no factual evidence to back them up
Unless you have something to share in the way of evidence to back up the conspiracy theory? I'll happily review it
There's no conspiracy. Cannon's actions were his and his alone. And there's no complicated theory here, either. The simple "facts" of the Galway-Dublin Greenway are:
1. Farmers in Galway and other areas of the country were already (and will always be) concerned, and outright opposed to the use of CPOs for greenway land acquisition.
2. On several occasions in 2015, Cannon met with landowners (farmers) along the greenway route, which resulted in a political promise that that their lands would not be CPOd for a greenway.
3. Cannon called for the then Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe to "abandon" the planned greenway because the route was "completely unviable." (Think about that - the entire route!)
4. The controversy flared to the degree that the project was indeed deferred, and Galway's Greenway funds went to other segments.
5. Then, because the project was sufficiently banjaxed at that point, the Minister removed it from the Council's purview and gave it to TII to deliver. He also had to claw back Cannon's blanket "no-CPO" promise, but of course, the original route was too tarnished to reconsider at that point.
I don't believe that Cannon set out to intentionally block the greenway. It was just an easy score when it happened, and at a time when greenways ranked much lower in the local hierarchy of concerns. I don't dislike the man personally, but I can't stand his political muckraking. He seems to function best against the backdrop of a grumpy mob of his own creation. But hey, if he's your man...
What we needed at the time was a true "greenway champion" to tirelessly tout the benefits of greenways to our towns and villages, and to reassure land owners that all measures would be taken to minimise land severance and disruption. What we got were calls to cancel and abandon the planned greenway in favour of no alternative route.0 -
I agree about the need for a greenway champion, the issue is that the campaign for greenways has descended into rail versus trail arguments rather than looking for opportunities to build new off road routes.0
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Muckyboots wrote: »A bit like Benjamin Netanyahu talking to Palestinians there.
While he remains Israeli PM he needs to...0 -
Deleted User wrote: »Only those with whackadoodle conspiracy theories with no factual evidence to back them up
Unless you have something to share in the way of evidence to back up the conspiracy theory? I'll happily review it
Crikey, the dogs on the street know that Cannon meddled in the Eurovelo project, holding meetings etc. For those who want greenway to run along side rail (not much opposition to the idea, just not at the expense of rail), from some of these articles he positively pooh hoo's rail.
https://irishcycle.com/2014/12/15/compulsory-purchase-orders-to-be-used-for-dublin-galway-greenway-if-necessary-says-minister/
https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/
https://connachttribune.ie/minister-cannon-comes-under-fire-for-supporting-greenway-000/
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/need-for-compulsory-purchase-orders-on-greenway-route-cant-be-ruled-out/
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dublin-Galway_Greenway
https://connachttribune.ie/cannon-rules-out-cpos-for-future-greenway-routes/
https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/07/15/4176982-athlone-to-galway-cycleway-plan-resurrected/
https://www.advertiser.ie/Galway/article/108698/galway-tops-greenway-development-application-list
From reading the above articles, I see him as someone who's talking out both sides of his mouth.... I also notice the media that is not in his electoral jurisdiction has a lot less 'drama' in the story (Westmeath Independent)0 -
meanwhile, a claim on fb just now states that poiticians of all parties have got behind re-opening the WRC.
So where does the truth lie? Supporters of the Greenway claim on here that only a couple of politiicans back the WRC
So where does the truth lie? Lying to your own supporters is very foolish
errr wrong. It is only in Mayo that is seems the entire political establishment is living in a deluded world. In Sligo all serious candidates with a chance of being elected are behind the greenway, including one candidate independent Marian Harking a former stalwart of the WRC made the most remarkable statement in favour of the greenway. There is a majority in Sligo County county council that supports the greenway and it seems there is a similar majority now in Galway Coco, witness by the fact that the small cohort opposed did not call for a vote on some recent pro-greenway motions, why? Because they know the game is up on Galway coco, it is now a greenway favourable council. Of the TD hopefuls in Galway East we know who opposes the Greenway, Canney for reasons of his own and Sinn Fein because they cannot disobey party orders. The remaining candidates including all those from two main parties fully support it.
In Mayo, where I think you are drawing your comment from, a report this week said all the candidates in Mayo said they support the WRC, well bully for them. The FG manifesto actually refers to the WRC, saying whether it happens or not is entirely subject to the outcome of the infamous Rail Report we have been barred from seeing before the election. The FF candidate does not even mention the phrase WRC. Lisa Chambers claim she has supported the railway ever since she became a Cllr. Wrong she told me in an off the record telephone conversation in 2014 that it had no chance of ever being built. The bandwagon of promising the undeliverable WRC seems to be still in favour with the denialists from Mayo.
In conclusion, you have made a rather sweeping statement about all parties getting behind the WRC in fact you are talking total and utter bulls**t. You don't happen to be a Mayo candidate do you?0 -
Very good question, Isambard. And may I post a rather long-winded political response, even though I will not be voting on the the 8th due to circumstances beyond my control.
It is claimed that one of the chief Quiet Man Greenway "champions" is Minister Ciarán Cannon (FG), likely because of his mainstream and social media presence, and perhaps by his attendance at the Tuam greenway event last year. But has he really been the QMG's chief advocate? Or (as I would submit) has he inadvertently doomed it by a prior populous intervention?
Let's turn the clock back to 2015, long before the idea of greenway spandex dollars danced in the minds of East Galway folk. At that time, the issue was a far away greenway in Kerry - one that farmers were none-to-happy about, because it relied heavily on a CPO approach. (As an aside, are not CPOs warranted if they are needed to deliver such valuable tourism infrastructure)?
In waltzes Minister Cannon, who astutely acknowledges the bad vibes over the Kerry CPOs, and sees an opportunity to cash in on the same controversy that undoubtedly was going to occur with the Athlone to Galway greenway, which was then only in the infancy of planning. Minister Cannon (as a sympathetic representative of rural farmers - the constituency du jour) cleverly meets with the landowners and reinforces their fears that CPOs are just awful, that their lands would be severed, and that they "just weren't being listened to." He offers no alternative route or process, other than a generic one which would just suit everyone to a tee (completely ignoring the stark reality that the only way you will get a square metre of a Galway farmer's land is by a CPO). And the conclusion of Minister Cannon's intervention is a call to Minister for Transport to abandon the greenway altogether!
"Having met with numerous landowners I am now in no doubt that the current route is completely unviable and should simply be abandoned as an option for the delivery of a new greenway” - Minister Ciarán Cannon (https://irishcycle.com/2015/09/22/td-calls-for-end-to-current-dublin-to-galway-greenway-route/)
Fast forward to 2020. We now have a National Greenways Strategy, where the blocked Galway to Dublin greenway is the "centerpiece." We also have the same EuroVelo Route 2 (The Capitols Route) that is equally blocked (hopefully just delayed) similarly by Minister Cannon's interference. So it's no surprise that the good minister wholeheartedly supports a cheap and easy substitute greenway in East Galway (scavenging a rail line with reactivation potential) to compensate for his prior blunder.
But it's too late. The Galway-to-Athlone link is sufficiently mired in controversy to the degree that delivery will be delayed for years. That is an unfortunate turn of events for Minister Cannon, as the defunct route was to pass though his own town of Loughrea! And the irony of it all is that the absence of that Greenway negates the potential for connectivity to the QMG idea. So, perhaps the question to be asked this election is, "Who is the only candidate that has called on a Minister for Transport to "abandon" a fully supported and funded greenway that is in the National Strategy and part of the EuroVelo?" Minister Ciarán Cannon - that's who, because he wanted to placate East Galway farmers.
One thing that can be said about the Quiet Man Greenway campaign is that they are on constant alert for deception, trickery, tomfoolery, and the like. They accuse Sean Canney (whom I've never met) of this, even though he has constantly and simply stated that he supports Rail for Tuam, and also greenways where possible. The only "fudge" I have seen in this process so far is Minister Cannon prying his way into a meeting with the consultant preparing (what should be) an independent rail review, with bogus ideas and statistics, to the effect that there are "9 passengers per train from Ennis to Limerick." Honestly!
So we do need to ask ourselves whether Minister Ciarán Cannon is really so wonderful, and whether Sean Canney is really so awful, or are we perhaps deceived by a seasoned politician conveniently using a FB group administrated by out-of-county spite mongers?
Got to admit, the hilarity on this thread has now passed a new level, what a complete and utter load of bollox0 -
Got to admit, the hilarity on this thread has now passed a new level, what a complete and utter load of bollox
That’s a novel way of saying you have no answer to the very valid points made. Meanwhile why the west on crack page? Were you bored? Did you have a lot of cross dresser pics on your hard drive that needed an airing?0 -
Lisa Chambers claim she has supported the railway ever since she became a Cllr. Wrong she told me in an off the record telephone conversation in 2014 that it had no chance of ever being built.
Message loud and clear then - never have an off the record conversation with the Greenway campaign because it will be on the record eventually!! #GrassNotGrassroots0 -
That’s a novel way of saying you have no answer to the very valid points made. Meanwhile why the west on crack page? Were you bored? Did you have a lot of cross dresser pics on your hard drive that needed an airing?
Ewwwwww! What a creepy, sleazy FB group! Sexualizing the debate over a greenway? Really? And then insulting the citizens of Galway all along the way. Way out of bounds!!0 -
Lord Glentoran wrote: »Message loud and clear then - never have an off the record conversation with the Greenway campaign because it will be on the record eventually!! #GrassNotGrassroots
Indeed, candidates running for council were hounded by certian folk in the Greenway Campaign, their correspondence they thought private, was screen shot and published.
I'd give them a 'Wide Berth'.0 -
That’s a novel way of saying you have no answer to the very valid points made. Meanwhile why the west on crack page? Were you bored? Did you have a lot of cross dresser pics on your hard drive that needed an airing?
That page is nothing to do with me mate, but I do find it quite funny, anyway no worries you will soon have an SF/WOT government who can deliver the piped dream of the WRC; SF are the only party actually promising its delivery, and as for the not being prepared to argue with that overlong post, a few posts up and calling is complete bollox; It is simply because I am bored making the same point over and over again, so better to simply call it as it is, a complete and utter load of bollox. Anyway if SF deliver the promised land to the commandant in Claremorris then fair cop to you all. Hey ho on we go. Im off to a safe house.0 -
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