Religious persecution in Ireland

jonniebgood1 · 29-05-2011 12:05pm #1

I would'nt be a big fan of religion in any form and in Ireland it has been a real source of division despite the fact that there are very little differences between supposed opposite sides. The story of the Limerick Pogrom is just one sad episode representing how these differences manifest into outright bigotry in a nasty way:

In 1904 a young Catholic priest, Father John Creagh, of the Redemptorist order, delivered a fiery sermon castigating Jews for their rejection of Christ, being usurers[27] and allies of the Freemasons then persecuting the Church in France, taking over the local economy, selling shoddy goods at inflated prices, to be paid for in installments. He urged Catholics "not to deal with the Jews."[27] Later, after eighty Jews had been driven from their homes, Creagh was disowned by his superiors saying that: religious persecution had no place in Ireland.[28] The Limerick Pogrom was the economic boycott waged against the small Jewish community for over two years. Keogh suggests the name derives from their previous Lithuanian experience even though no one was killed or seriously injured.[27] Limerick's Protestant community, many of whom were also traders, supported the Jews throughout the pogrom, but ultimately Limerick's Jews fled the city.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Pogrom#Pogrom

It is shocking if the jewish community actually had to fully leave the Limerick area as it was an outright victory for narrow mindedness. I believe Arthur Griffith did not cover himself in glory in relation to this either, supporting the pogrom.

Does anyone have any other examples of this type of religious persecution in Ireland(perhaps not including 1918-1923)? Or further information on the Limerick Pogrom?

PatsytheNazi · 29-05-2011 2:05pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I would'nt be a big fan of religion in any form and in Ireland it has been a real source of division despite the fact that there are very little differences between supposed opposite sides. The story of the Limerick Pogrom is just one sad episode representing how these differences manifest into outright bigotry in a nasty way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Pogrom#Pogrom

It is shocking if the jewish community actually had to fully leave the Limerick area as it was an outright victory for narrow mindedness. I believe Arthur Griffith did not cover himself in glory in relation to this either, supporting the pogrom.

Does anyone have any other examples of this type of religious persecution in Ireland(perhaps not including 1918-1923)? Or further information on the Limerick Pogrom?

There you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws_%28Ireland%29

Simples.

R.Dub.Fusilier · 30-05-2011 1:05am

it was hardly a "pogrom" , it was a boycott of Jewish businesses and very little , if any , violence was used.

enfant terrible · 30-05-2011 1:06am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I would'nt be a big fan of religion in any form and in Ireland it has been a real source of division despite the fact that there are very little differences between supposed opposite sides. The story of the Limerick Pogrom is just one sad episode representing how these differences manifest into outright bigotry in a nasty way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerick_Pogrom#Pogrom

It is shocking if the jewish community actually had to fully leave the Limerick area as it was an outright victory for narrow mindedness. I believe Arthur Griffith did not cover himself in glory in relation to this either, supporting the pogrom.

Does anyone have any other examples of this type of religious persecution in Ireland(perhaps not including 1918-1923)? Or further information on the Limerick Pogrom?

Was this a one off or has Ireland always had a problem with Jewish people.

jonniebgood1 · 30-05-2011 11:07am

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

it was hardly a "pogrom" , it was a boycott of Jewish businesses and very little , if any , violence was used.

Semantics- The events are widely recorded as the 'Limerick pogrom'. Whether it was a pogrom or not depends on the definition- "1 ( noun ) pogrom organized persecution of an ethnic group" http://www.definition-of.net/pogrom

enfant terrible wrote: »

Was this a one off or has Ireland always had a problem with Jewish people.

I think it was one off- De Valera in 1937 protected Jewish people in the constitution as a result of persecution in Germany.

CDfm · 01-06-2011 7:59am

My grandfather in Cork had a jewish dentist whose family had moved from Limerick at that time.

Ben Briscoe senior in Dublin fought in 1916 -attended a CBS school and was jewish.

Gerald Goldberg a onetime FF Cork Lord Mayor & solicitor recounted an incident at UCC when students questioned his right to debate as a Jew and the republican students came to his rescue.

And this bit

The Jewish Mayor of Youghal & a Shakespearean Connection

Francis Annyas served as Mayor of Youghal in 1569, 1576 and 1581. It is sometimes said that he was Jewish. Indeed, Cecil Roth maintained that he was Jewish and that his sister Sarah married Rodrigo Lopez, the character upon whom Shakespeare based Shylock in ‘The Merchant of Venice’. The Shakespeare connection is curious as there is some speculation that the Bard might have once made a trip to Youghal and / or Molana Abbey. The Kassim family website also notes that a William Annyas was Mayor of Youghal in 1553, so one assumes he was an older brother, uncle or father. William Annyas is also mentioned, with Francis, in the Council Book of Youghal as "Agents of the town" in negotiations. There are also mentions of a Genette Annyas and a John Annyas. However, David Kelly (who discussed this case with Gerald Goldberg, former Lord Mayor of Cork) says that if Annyas was a Jew, it was covertly. The history of the Jews website does not mention him or Youghal. (With thanks to Eddie Cantwell and Kieran Groeger),

http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_irish/history_irish_raleigh.htm

jonniebgood1 · 01-06-2011 8:30am

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

very little , if any , violence was used.

I've come across more detail on the events from HistoryIreland:

Large numbers from the Arch Confraternity launched an attack on the Jewish sector of the city, pelting the Jews with mud, breaking windows and throwing stones. The police moved in and eleven were arrested and later prosecuted, but it was estimated that at least 200 had behaved violently.

There was widespread support for the actions of Creagh and his flock from Arthur Griffith to the London Times

After a lull, the violence flared again in March; in April there were 40 attacks on the Jews and the anti-Semitic stridency of the Arch Confraternity continued. The pogrom received wide coverage and on 4 April The Times in London published a letter supporting the anti-Jewish drive. A number of English people sent moral support to the activists through the correspondence columns of the Limerick Leader. One was Alfred Walmsley of the British League of Brothers, based in Stepney. He said that he regretted that English workers had not copied the initiative taken by the citizens of Limerick.

I laughed at the 'Munster news' editorial reply to the Cof I bishop who stood up for the Jewish community:

‘Let Bishop Bunbury behave himself. The days are gone when a Papist, ridden over by a Protestant fox-hunter, should crawl hat-in-hand to beg his honour’s pardon for having been in the horse’s way’.

http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume12/issue2/features/?id=305

MarchDub · 02-06-2011 12:48am

CDfm wrote: »

.

Ben Briscoe senior in Dublin fought in 1916 -attended a CBS school and was jewish.

You mean Robert Briscoe - Briscoe didn't actually fight in 1916 - he was out of the country at the time but he was so influenced and impressed by the Easter Rising that he joined a number of nationalists organizations when he returned to Dublin and eventually became a courier in the IRA during the War of Independence.

Michael Collins was impressed by him and appointed him to the General Headquarters of the IRA and made him chief gun runner for arms in 1919. Briscoe was highly successfully in procuring arms and set up an elaborate shipping network via Germany, Belgium and Holland and broke through the British blockade a number of times.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 02-06-2011 2:57am

The Blueshirt's were anti-Semitic, they allowed all Christians to join (including all denominations of Protestant) but excluded Jews.

PatsytheNazi · 02-06-2011 2:20pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

The Blueshirt's were anti-Semitic, they allowed all Christians to join (including all denominations of Protestant) but excluded Jews.

Here are some female Blueshirts, not surprised they were anti Jewish. To be honest, their was quite a lot of ignorance in Ireland back then. I remember watching a program on TG4 about the Germans interned in the Curragh in WW2 and it told how a German airman after been relaeased from the Curragh at the end of the war wanted to marry a woman from Athlone. He was a Bavarian Catholic but the local priest refused to marry them saying " it wasn't right for a young Irish girl to marry such a ' foreigner ' !!!! So they married in a registery office instead.

PatsytheNazi · 02-06-2011 2:24pm

CDfm wrote: »

My grandfather in Cork had a jewish dentist whose family had moved from Limerick at that time.

Ben Briscoe senior in Dublin fought in 1916 -attended a CBS school and was jewish.

Gerald Goldberg a onetime FF Cork Lord Mayor & solicitor recounted an incident at UCC when students questioned his right to debate as a Jew and the republican students came to his rescue.

And this bit

Former Labour TD Mervyn Taylor was also Jewish. So is Alan Shatter. For a small community they have been quite successful in politics here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mervyn_Taylor

enfant terrible · 02-06-2011 2:47pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Former Labour TD Mervyn Taylor was also Jewish. So is Alan Shatter. For a small community they have been quite successful in politics here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mervyn_Taylor

Ya they are incredible people, the success they've had despite all the persecution they suffered throughout history.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 02-06-2011 3:14pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I remember watching a program on TG4 about the Germans interned in the Curragh in WW2 and it told how a German airman after been relaeased from the Curragh at the end of the war wanted to marry a woman from Athlone. He was a Bavarian Catholic but the local priest refused to marry them saying " it wasn't right for a young Irish girl to marry such a ' foreigner ' !!!! So they married in a registery office instead.

Reminds me of a story I heard about John McGahern recently. When 'The Dark' was banned the local priest rang him to complain saying 'If it was just the dirty books we might be able to help ya, but with ya marrying a foreign woman you've made yourself into a hopeless case altogether'.

jonniebgood1 · 07-06-2011 9:43pm

It seems that Cromwell didnt reserve his persecution to only one religon -he turned his force also against Quakers in Ireland:

The radicalism of the early Quakers struck fear into the hearts of their contemporaries. Their ideas seemed to represent a challenge to the social order of the day. Henry Cromwell had the army in Ireland purged the Quakers because they feared that they were undermining the discipline of the regiments. Quaker pamphlets were seized and burned in Ireland. Quaker preachers from England were arrested and banished from the country. Many Quakers were arrested. This marked the start of a large scale persecution of Quakers in Ireland. In 1659, there was widespread fear that the Quakers would overthrow the government. This was of the factors that lead to the restoration of Charles II in 1660.

In the years that followed 1660 the threat of a Quaker rising disappeared as the early evangelical Quakers were gradually replaced by a self-censored and self-disciplined society. One reason for this change is that the period after 1660, known as the Restoration Period, witnessed a rejection of most of the radical ideas that been propagated during the 1640s and 1650s

http://www.mountmellick.net/history/quakers/birthofquakers.htm

They are a very small group in Ireland- Maybe this is down to Cromwell but they seem like a decent group.

In Ireland, the Quakers helped suffering people after of the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. During the 1798 Rising, the Quakers aided people regardless of religious or political affiliation. History records that the day after the Battle of Vinegar Hill near Enniscorthy, the streets of the County Wexford town were full of corpses but the Quakers went to their meeting and on to do their good works.

Their social work was particularly noted during the Great Famine. After the potato crop failed, Quakers quickly organised food supplies for the starving multitudes. They set up soup kitchens in Dublin and Cork and in County Galway, they organised a model farm where efficient crop cultivation was practiced to help people manage their holdings better. The Quakers, even though numerically small even then, gave aid worth £200,000 during the famine, which compared more than favourably with the £10 million given by the British government.

SugarHigh · 07-06-2011 10:21pm

Dervla Kirwan was on "Who do you think you are" the BBC version. She had a Jewish great grandfather who ended up in court in front of a very anti-semitic judge. The judge had a history of being unfair against Jews and was thus being watched. It was even brought up in parliament and the Jewish guy was let free after 6 months. The trial was also apparently referenced in Ulysses.

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2011 9:34am

Was it not the Quakers that offered soup in exchange for denouncing the Catholic church?

I know the Anglican and Catholic church denounced the practice, but I haven't heard what denomination was actually doing it.

PatsytheNazi · 08-06-2011 11:21am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

It seems that Cromwell didnt reserve his persecution to only one religon -he turned his force also against Quakers in Ireland:

http://www.mountmellick.net/history/quakers/birthofquakers.htm

They are a very small group in Ireland- Maybe this is down to Cromwell but they seem like a decent group.

Not surprising, he was a bloodthirsty lunatic tyrant who heard voices and fervently believed that God sent him to cleanse and purge the entire world of dissenters and papists and who liked nothing better than a mass slaughter followed by a brutal suppression. It's no wonder his regime failed to take hold and collapsed after his death. Still, Hugh Dubh O'Neill and the boys at Clonmel gave him a bloody nose and he soon had to return to England after it.

And then they have a statue in his ' honour ' outside Westminister :rolleyes:. But then the Brits also have them to war criminals like bomber Harris etc should it surprise anyone :mad:

ejmaztec · 08-06-2011 2:45pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Not surprising, he was a bloodthirsty lunatic tyrant who heard voices and fervently believed that God sent him to cleanse and purge the entire world of dissenters and papists and who liked nothing better than a mass slaughter followed by a brutal suppression. It's no wonder his regime failed to take hold and collapsed after his death. Still, Hugh Dubh O'Neill and the boys at Clonmel gave him a bloody nose and he soon had to return to England after it.

And then they have a statue in his ' honour ' outside Westminister :rolleyes:. But then the Brits also have them to war criminals like bomber Harris etc should it surprise anyone :mad:

I didn't know that he was into religious persecution.

CDfm · 08-06-2011 2:56pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Was it not the Quakers that offered soup in exchange for denouncing the Catholic church?

I know the Anglican and Catholic church denounced the practice, but I haven't heard what denomination was actually doing it.

Killinaskully had a great episode on it called "the Visit" .

Anyway, here is a quote from an article on the issue that I found by googling "soupers" .

There was a noted proselytising centre at Achill Island in County Mayo where the afore-mentioned Revd. Edward Nangle, a Dublin-born Anglican minister and his family and small group of like-minded evangelicals, bought land and set up a 'Protestant colony', with a church, schools, employment, medical support and a printing press - this latter was important to allow the missions to disseminate their views and beliefs to the wider community 26. The parish priest on Achill at the time, Father Michael Gallagher, claimed that the famine '… compelled … the greater number of the population to send their children to Nangle's proselytising, villainous schools … they are dying of hunger and rather than die, they have submitted to his impious tenets'. Gallagher explained that 'as soon as Lumpers (potatoes of an inferior quality) make their appearance', the 'souper' Catholics would turn their backs on them and return to the true flock. The parish priest for Ballinakill in Clifden reported: 'It cannot be wondered if a starving people be perverted in shoals, especially as they (the proselytisers) go from cabin to cabin and when they find the inmates naked and starved to death, they proffer food, money and raiment, on the express condition of becoming members of their conventicler.' 27

Some Catholics, in a desperate attempt to save the lives of their starving children, accepted this preferential treatment by converting to an alien faith and became known as 'Croghan Soupers' - named after a landed aristocracy in Roscommon. In some cases, soupers were protected by British soldiers from their co-religionists. Even today, such a label raises hackles, although the actual numbers of families 'converted' appear quite minimal. But then, a great deal of bitterness existed at this association of famine relief and saving lives with proselytising campaigns which, although it was carried out well before the potato blight, radically increased and became very widespread during it. The granting of Catholic Emancipation in 1829 injected urgency into the push for Protestant expansionism and the next year, the less-than-subtly-named Protestant Colonisation Society was set up, heralding the revitalisation of the proselytising campaign 28
. As the famine spread, a large number of these organisations began operating throughout the country - the Exeter Society, the Orphan Association and the Belfast Society for the Relief of Distress in Connaught. Dudley Edwards et al 29
explain that provision of basic food in the form of soup became a 'strong inducement to adults to attend bible-reading classes or to send their children to local Protestant schools'. A particularly nasty strategy was employed by some groups like the Church Missionary Societies in Holywood and Down who offered meat soup on Fridays 'to starving people whose resistance might be worn thin by hunger', given the belief among Catholics that it was sinful to eat meat on Fridays. 'Many were so uncharitable as to conclude that it was the food, and not the Bible, that the children love, and that as soon as they were deprived of one, they would reject the other', a surprised John Brannigan explained 30

Here is a link to the whole article

http://homepage.eircom.net/~archaeology/two/famine.htm

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2011 3:23pm

The link is good, but just refers to "Protestants, although they point out Nangle was an evangelist.

What I was curious to fing out was whether or not a particular denomination was particularly aggressive in this kind of proseletysing.

PatsytheNazi · 08-06-2011 3:24pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I didn't know that he was into religious persecution.

Just pointing out the similarities in honoring war criminals Einstein :rolleyes:

old hippy · 08-06-2011 3:27pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Not surprising, he was a bloodthirsty lunatic tyrant who heard voices and fervently believed that God sent him to cleanse and purge the entire world of dissenters and papists and who liked nothing better than a mass slaughter followed by a brutal suppression. It's no wonder his regime failed to take hold and collapsed after his death. Still, Hugh Dubh O'Neill and the boys at Clonmel gave him a bloody nose and he soon had to return to England after it.

And then they have a statue in his ' honour ' outside Westminister :rolleyes:. But then the Brits also have them to war criminals like bomber Harris etc should it surprise anyone :mad:

You do seem quite concerned at what the "Brits" have, no?

PatsytheNazi · 08-06-2011 4:48pm

old hippy wrote: »

You do seem quite concerned at what the "Brits" have, no?

So do you

ejmaztec · 08-06-2011 5:04pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Just pointing out the similarities in honoring war criminals Einstein :rolleyes:

It's odd that a country with a monarchy would be honouring a man who did away with one of that country's monarchs for a time.

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2011 5:47pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's odd that a country with a monarchy would be honouring a man who did away with one of that country's monarchs for a time.

Cromwell's statue isn't there so much to honour the man, more to serve as a constant reminder who is has the real power.

I find it odd that Patsy isn't a fan of Cromwell, he was after all a blood thirsty murdering republican.

Condatis · 08-06-2011 6:01pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

It's odd that a country with a monarchy would be honouring a man who did away with one of that country's monarchs for a time.

"For a time"!

Actually it was for all time. The beheading was final.

CDfm · 08-06-2011 6:10pm

Condatis wrote: »

"For a time"!

Actually it was for all time. The beheading was final.

wasnt cromwell dug up tried and beheaded and his head put on a spike ??

Fratton Fred · 08-06-2011 7:04pm

CDfm wrote: »

wasnt cromwell dug up tried and beheaded and his head put on a spike ??

He was, by King Charles grandson I believe.

owenc · 08-06-2011 8:00pm

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Not surprising, he was a bloodthirsty lunatic tyrant who heard voices and fervently believed that God sent him to cleanse and purge the entire world of dissenters and papists and who liked nothing better than a mass slaughter followed by a brutal suppression. It's no wonder his regime failed to take hold and collapsed after his death. Still, Hugh Dubh O'Neill and the boys at Clonmel gave him a bloody nose and he soon had to return to England after it.

And then they have a statue in his ' honour ' outside Westminister :rolleyes:. But then the Brits also have them to war criminals like bomber Harris etc should it surprise anyone :mad:

He didn't like the church of england either since they are not true protestants. And you have to remember if it wasn't for him then the towns in northern ireland would not exist nor would the people so it is worth honouring him. I don't believe this whole nonsense however that he moved all the catholics to galway i think thats a pile of **** there are still tons of catholics in derry and if he moved them all they wouldn't be there people have to remember there was no one barely in northern ireland before the plantation its just that alot of protestants converted to be catholics and thats why most catholics have planters names! I know loads of protestants who converted to be catholic for land, i would never convert for land!

owenc · 08-06-2011 8:02pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Was it not the Quakers that offered soup in exchange for denouncing the Catholic church?

I know the Anglican and Catholic church denounced the practice, but I haven't heard what denomination was actually doing it.

Doing what? Converting the folks? It was probably the presbyterian church, presbyterians are quite fundamental like catholics and they have a similar rule to the catholics whereby you must convert to be married in their church but they are not as bad because they do not force you to baptise your kids presbyterian so they would be of a similar idea.

ejmaztec · 08-06-2011 10:12pm

Condatis wrote: »

"For a time"!

Actually it was for all time. The beheading was final.

It took a long time to heal, but he's okay now:P.

Religious persecution in Ireland

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