Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 12:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

the public sector weren't protected from redundantsies in real terms, the redundantsies that were needed had likely taken place over the years anyway as jobs either were no longer needed or parts were integrated into other rolls.

What on earth are you talking about? How many public servants were made redundant as a result of the financial crisis?

The public sector will be back to its pre-crash high of 320,000 employees by the end of the year, according to government figures.

And here are the year-on-year changes in wages in the public and private sectors. No prizes for guessing who is doing better over the past couple of years. And now they want special housing allowances on top.

limnam · 28-11-2018 12:39pm

end of the road wrote: »

a nonsense soundbite. public sector workers do a real days work as well. the private sector don't all have it hard and aren't the only ones who know work.
the public sector weren't protected from redundantsies in real terms, the redundantsies that were needed had likely taken place over the years anyway as jobs either were no longer needed or parts were integrated into other rolls.

Not re-filling a head count != redundancy's and well you know it.

Moonjet · 28-11-2018 12:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never understood this argument that its implied that public servants should be excluded from the group known as 'taxpayers'. They are taxed and spend their earnings in the private sector like everyone else.

The fundamental difference is, in the private sector the source of the 'tax' (PAYE/PRSI/USC) being paid is not the State. I've never understood why people can't comprehend that simple concept.

Deise Vu · 28-11-2018 12:46pm

For the life of me I can never understand why the newspaper headlines don't read "EVEN public servants can't afford housing in Dublin". Instead we get this narrative that our public servants are somehow hard done by.

Here is the pay scale for teachers taken on since 2011 which the lowest scale:

https://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scales-and-qualification-allowances/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/

A starting salary of €36,318 plus €1,236 for a 1st or 2nd class HDip is €37,554. By year 2 the basic plus HDIP is already equal to the average pay across the economy of €39K. Factor in the holidays, snow days, storm days, holy days, 'personal' days and very generous sickness and maternity packages before you even consider pensions and suddenly things get a bit more perspective. And that is the lowest scale.

Another thing I don't understand is why Governments buy peace at any cost at the first sign of a public service dispute. Their reward for this craven approach is a guaranteed threat of a strike at the next available opportunity, there is never any peace dividend in it for the Govt. Considering Nurses and Teachers (and Guards and train drivers etc etc) will inevitably threaten a strike as soon as an election is called, is there no chance some Govt will try and win the votes of the 85% of us who aren't on the gravy train by telling them to GTFO.

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 12:51pm

limnam wrote: »

Huh

The number of vehicles on Irish roads has reached its highest level to date, with a total 2.68 million vehicles, including 2.1 million cars, using the State’s roads last year, according to the latest Transport Trends report

I'm talking about Central Dublin here.

28-11-2018 12:55pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

For the life of me I can never understand why the newspaper headlines don't read "EVEN public servants can't afford housing in Dublin". Instead we get this narrative that our public servants are somehow hard done by.

Here is the pay scale for teachers taken on since 2011 which the lowest scale:

https://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scales-and-qualification-allowances/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/

A starting salary of €36,318 plus €1,236 for a 1st or 2nd class HDip is €37,554. By year 2 the basic plus HDIP is already equal to the average pay across the economy of €39K. Factor in the holidays, snow days, storm days, holy days, 'personal' days and very generous sickness and maternity packages before you even consider pensions and suddenly things get a bit more perspective. And that is the lowest scale.

Another thing I don't understand is why Governments buy peace at any cost at the first sign of a public service dispute. Their reward for this craven approach is a guaranteed threat of a strike at the next available opportunity, there is never any peace dividend in it for the Govt. Considering Nurses and Teachers (and Guards and train drivers etc etc) will inevitably threaten a strike as soon as an election is called, is there no chance some Govt will try and win the votes of the 85% of us who aren't on the gravy train by telling them to GTFO.

If you're telling people how great you think the job is, did you ever consider having a go at it yourself?

limnam · 28-11-2018 12:55pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

For the life of me I can never understand why the newspaper headlines don't read "EVEN public servants can't afford housing in Dublin". Instead we get this narrative that our public servants are somehow hard done by.

Here is the pay scale for teachers taken on since 2011 which the lowest scale:

https://www.asti.ie/pay-and-conditions/pay/salary-scales-and-qualification-allowances/salary-scale-for-teachers-appointed-after-january-2011/

A starting salary of €36,318 plus €1,236 for a 1st or 2nd class HDip is €37,554. By year 2 the basic plus HDIP is already equal to the average pay across the economy of €39K. Factor in the holidays, snow days, storm days, holy days, 'personal' days and very generous sickness and maternity packages before you even consider pensions and suddenly things get a bit more perspective. And that is the lowest scale.

Another thing I don't understand is why Governments buy peace at any cost at the first sign of a public service dispute. Their reward for this craven approach is a guaranteed threat of a strike at the next available opportunity, there is never any peace dividend in it for the Govt. Considering Nurses and Teachers (and Guards and train drivers etc etc) will inevitably threaten a strike as soon as an election is called, is there no chance some Govt will try and win the votes of the 85% of us who aren't on the gravy train by telling them to GTFO.

keep in mind the 39k across the private sector is someone most likely not getting 4+ months off a year and working "full" days.

When you work it out into an hourly wage for hours actually in the classroom it's a staggering amount of money for someone starting out in a new job.

limnam · 28-11-2018 12:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're telling people how great you think the job is, did you ever consider ever having a go at it yourself?

Such a BS retort.

28-11-2018 12:58pm

limnam wrote: »

Such a BS retort.

If people are unhappy with their current career selections, b*tching at others is not a good way to solve the problem.

28-11-2018 1:02pm

Myah Flaky Tablecloth wrote: »

And here are the year-on-year changes in wages in the public and private sectors. No prizes for guessing who is doing better over the past couple of years. And now they want special housing allowances on top.

Rough Totals -
Private: 2+2+1.4+2.2+2+2.2+2.3+1.5+2.5 = 15.1
Public: (-1.1)+(-0.9)+1+1.3+2+3.3+3+3.1+3.5 = 15.2

Yeah, the public sector are streets ahead :pac: And that's ignoring the 4-5 years previous to that when the real cuts came in.

Never change, Boards. Never change.

jam_mac_jam · 28-11-2018 1:03pm

Don't address any of the issues. Yeah its all jealousy, that's it

Deise Vu · 28-11-2018 1:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If you're telling people how great you think the job is, did you ever consider having a go at it yourself?

I mentioned the Guards, Nurses and train Drivers also. Do I have to do those jobs in my spare time to have an opinion on their pay and conditions? I suppose if I was on a teacher's hours I probably would be able fit it in alright.

engiweirdo · 28-11-2018 1:05pm

Averages are useless in fairness particularly here. That €47k average includes politicians, senior consultants and medical professionals and long serving civil servants. For the vast majority of new entrants the salaries are much lower and as with everything else in this poxhole of a country, most of the positions will be based in Dublin. Best of luck with that lads. Its grand though, I'm sure all the poor saps will just be grateful for the chance to live in such a wonderful global city. On par with London or New York it is.

amcalester · 28-11-2018 1:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Rough Totals -
Private: 2+2+1.4+2.2+2+2.2+2.3+1.5+2.5 = 15.1
Public: (-1.1)+(-0.9)+1+1.3+2+3.3+3+3.1+3.5 = 15.2

Yeah, the public sector are streets ahead :pac: And that's ignoring the 4-5 years previous to that when the real cuts came in.

Looks like you've just shown that the public sector is increasing faster than the private (and from an already higher base ).

Those real cuts were job losses in the private sector, in the public sector it was a pay cut.

Now tell me which is worse?

28-11-2018 1:06pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I mentioned the Guards, Nurses and train Drivers also. Do I have to do those jobs in my spare time to have an opinion on their pay and conditions? I suppose if I was on a teacher's hours I probably would be able fit it in alright.

But why engage in negativity and generate bad PR about other people's career choices and associated pay & conditions? Where is it getting you? Honestly?

28-11-2018 1:14pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I mentioned the Guards, Nurses and train Drivers also. Do I have to do those jobs in my spare time to have an opinion on their pay and conditions? I suppose if I was on a teacher's hours I probably would be able fit it in alright.

No, you don't have to be employed in the PS to have an opinion. But if it's so cushy a number, why don't you climb aboard the gravy train? Free sick days, flexi time and gilt-edged pensions for all!

The levels of hypocrisy from people (Not aimed at you, Deise) who've never worked in a public job and only have this outdated view of the civil service from the 80's is staggering. From the abolition of benefits and increased working hours "not really being pay cuts" to the restoration of some of them being labeled as "Yet more pay increases!!!!?!".

Here you go, grab one for yourself.

WWW.PUBLICJOBS.IE

Now, time to put the snout back in the trough.

28-11-2018 1:21pm

amcalester wrote: »

Looks like you've just shown that the public sector is increasing faster than the private (and from an already higher base ).

Those real cuts were job losses in the private sector, in the public sector it was a pay cut.

Now tell me which is worse?

1. No, I've shown that the overall increase is 0.1% of a difference across both sectors
2. "Average" wage in each sector is a bullsh!t statistic that has been dismissed as meaningless, so your "already high base" is, again, rubbish.

Mad_maxx · 28-11-2018 1:26pm

Lana Black Conduit wrote: »

A meaningless stat considering public sector workers have a very high proportion of highly skilled jobs compared to the private sector so you would naturally expect a higher average salary.

Also teaches, nurses and guards etc are very underpaid for the jobs they do in any part of the country never mind Dublin.

That old chestnut

The gulf between public and private in other EU countries is a fraction of what it is here, do you think public servant's in those countries are less educated?

dotsman · 28-11-2018 1:35pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

Anyone with half a brain should see that the current govt have been utterly abysmal to the point of wanton neglect in even beginning to deal with the housing scandal. They simply do not care and, even if they truly did, are totally incompetent in tacking the issues. There's a neo-liberal free market must trump common good ideology in place and those losing out are turning against each other.

How is it the government's fault? Sinn Fein & friends run the councils. They're the ones who manage the housing supply, strategy, planning, services etc, not the government. The only thing the government has done wrong is not step up and shut down our incompetent city councils and run them nationally. There would be massive uproar and potential legal issues, but that is all the government can do on the matter.

Oh, and by the way, the property market in Ireland is the most anti-free-market you can get. So, apologies if this doesn't fit in with your left-wing/anarchist ideology, but you're going to have to look to your own on this one.

wrangler · 28-11-2018 1:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never understood this argument that its implied that public servants should be excluded from the group known as 'taxpayers'. They are taxed and spend their earnings in the private sector like everyone else.

Alright then, all revenue originates from the private sector......apart of course from what we're borrowing to run the country

28-11-2018 1:58pm

wrangler wrote: »

Alright then, all revenue originates from the private sector......apart of course from what we're borrowing to run the country

Another little factoid parroted by people with zero understanding of how an economy functions.

Here's one for you: All tax is collected by civil servants, without whom the economy would collapse.

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If people are unhappy with their current career selections, b*tching at others is not a good way to solve the problem.

Why do you have to be unhappy with your current career to discuss anthers?

28-11-2018 2:11pm

wrangler wrote: »

Alright then, all revenue originates from the private sector......apart of course from what we're borrowing to run the country

After tax, public sector workers spend the large majority of their salary in the private sector. Cut their numbers and/or wages, who will suffer the most?

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:12pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm talking about Central Dublin here.

only people in central dublin can't afford a car?

wtf?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 2:13pm

limnam wrote: »

Christ.

She's young. She can share. Get a room in a house for 280e a month.

That leaves her with over 1300e a month with shared bills.

God forbid we're ever in a_real_ crisis.

In Dublin? Are you joking? I felt lucky getting a room in a houseshare in Cork for €280 per month in the very worst of the recession. She’d pay double that for a houseshare in Dublin now and it might not even be nice or near where she works, adding transport costs.

jimgoose · 28-11-2018 2:15pm

I think that's a fantastic idea. In fact, I think all public servants living out Whoop-Whoop should have their pay cut by 20%, and all of them living Above in the Dublin should have it hiked by 20%. That'll sort it out, with no downsides whatsowhomeverforth.

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:15pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

In Dublin? Are you joking? I felt lucky getting a room in a houseshare in Cork for €280 per month in the very worst of the recession. She’d pay double that for a houseshare in Dublin now and it might not even be nice or near where she works, adding transport costs.

daft.ie

have a look yourself.

amcalester · 28-11-2018 2:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

1. No, I've shown that the overall increase is 0.1% of a difference across both sectors
2. "Average" wage in each sector is a bullsh!t statistic that has been dismissed as meaningless, so your "already high base" is, again, rubbish.

Yes, Public Sector wages are increasing faster than private sector and they are calling for further increases.

It's good that you admit that.

28-11-2018 2:19pm

limnam wrote: »

Why do you have to be unhappy with your current career to discuss anthers?

I wouldn't call it a 'discussion'. Maybe I could bend it a little and call it an 'Irish discussion' though........

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 2:23pm

limnam wrote: »

only people in central dublin can't afford a car?

wtf?

oh honestly forget it.

The point is underground car parks in Central Dublin are under utilised by residents and they are extremely costly to construct.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 2:25pm

limnam wrote: »

daft.ie

have a look yourself.

Searched from low-high, rentwise. There was ONE place for €150 per month. How many people do you think viewed that place? From there, you’re talking €500+ plus a month. Many are advertised by their WEEKLY rent and clearly come to way more than double €280 per month.

And even with the odd cheap one that becomes available - does daft.ie provide information about how many queries those cheap rooms got?

I’m sure the bordering counties are cheaper but then you need to add significantly higher transport costs. I lived on roughly the entry level clerical workers salary in Dublin a few years ago. I don’t have a car, I don’t smoke and I barely drink. And it was very hard to get by.

So yeah, once again, are you joking?

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:28pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Searched from low-high, rentwise. There was ONE place for €150 per month. How many people do you think viewed that place? From there, you’re talking €500+ plus a month. Many are advertised by their WEEKLY rent and clearly come to way more than double €280 per month.

And even with the odd cheap one that becomes available - does daft.ie provide information about how many queries those cheap rooms got?

So yeah, once again, are you joking?

What's wrong with this?

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/house-share/porterstown/saint-mochtas-chase-porterstown-dublin-1052023/

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:29pm

cgcsb wrote: »

oh honestly forget it.

The point is underground car parks in Central Dublin are under utilised by residents and they are extremely costly to construct.

You said people couldn't afford a car....

jimgoose · 28-11-2018 2:30pm

limnam wrote: »

What's wrong with this?

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/house-share/porterstown/saint-mochtas-chase-porterstown-dublin-1052023/

It's sharing with a couple and child. Totes 'mare.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 2:32pm

limnam wrote: »

What's wrong with this?

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/house-share/porterstown/saint-mochtas-chase-porterstown-dublin-1052023/

Nothing, I’m sure the 100 people who viewed it thought it was grand. AND crucially, it’s in deep west Dublin, so add on a nice lump per month for transport costs.

And as the above poster said, sharing with a couple and their kid. You’d be a lodger. Hence the cheapness. Find a houseshare where everyone living there is on equal footing for that price.

jimgoose · 28-11-2018 2:33pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Nothing, I’m sure the 100 people who viewed it thought it was grand. AND crucially, it’s in deep west Dublin, so add on a nice lump per month for transport costs.

In fairness, it's in Clonsilla - Porterstown is really out Whoop-Whoop. :pac:

amcalester · 28-11-2018 2:33pm

limnam wrote: »

What's wrong with this?

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/house-share/porterstown/saint-mochtas-chase-porterstown-dublin-1052023/

Pretty much everything TBF.

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:34pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Nothing, I’m sure the 100 people who viewed it thought it was grand. AND crucially, it’s in deep west Dublin, so add on a nice lump per month for transport costs.

A monthly bus ticket.

How are people suppose to survive on 1300 a month when they have to get a bus!

come off it.

Trigger Happy · 28-11-2018 2:45pm

limnam wrote: »

What's wrong with this?

https://www.daft.ie/dublin/house-share/porterstown/saint-mochtas-chase-porterstown-dublin-1052023/

I am not sure what they are getting at with this line- “M looking nice & clean woman. ”

Do they want a housemate or a sex slave?

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:46pm

Trigger Happy wrote: »

I am not sure what they are getting at with this line- “M looking nice & clean woman. ”

Do they want a housemate or a sex slave?

perks :pac:

Birneybau · 28-11-2018 2:48pm

This sh!t again

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 2:51pm

limnam wrote: »

A monthly bus ticket.

How are people suppose to survive on 1300 a month when they have to get a bus!

come off it.

As said, I was paid near what entry-level PS clerical workers are paid around 2014. I’m careful with my money, I rarely drink, don’t own a car and don’t smoke. Living on that in Dublin was really tough even without those very common expenses. My rent was €500 per month and that the standard at the time (and things are much worse now) and I was lucky to get that room, there were many candidates.

You can say it’s a perfectly fine amount to live on in the capital but you’re convincing nobody. Claiming that a houseshare can easily be got for €280 per month was your first mistake. I’m sure they crop up but very rarely, I should think, and only one person gets that room.

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:55pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As said, I was paid near what entry-level PS clerical workers are paid around 2014. I’m careful with my money, I rarely drink, don’t own a car and don’t smoke. Living on that in Dublin was really tough even without those very common expenses. My rent was €500 per month and that the standard at the time (and things are much worse now) and I was lucky to get that room, there were many candidates.

You can say it’s a perfectly fine amount to live on in the capital but you’re convincing nobody. Claiming that a houseshare can easily be got for €280 per month was your first mistake. I’m sure they crop up but very rarely, I should think and only one person gets that room.

For someone starting in their first job yes it's fine.

I showed you clearly you could find a share for 280e

*shrug*

As I said. I'd hate to see the current lot in a _real_ crisis.

facehugger99 · 28-11-2018 2:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But why engage in negativity and generate bad PR about other people's career choices and associated pay & conditions? Where is it getting you? Honestly?

Personally, I don't give a **** about anyone's pay and conditions until I'm asked to fund it.

The money that the Government used to pay the eye-wateringly generous pay and pensions of the public servants is money that can't be used to fund much needed investment in schools, hospitals, roads, etc,

It is absolutely the business of every tax-payer in this country to question the value we are getting from public servants. They are over-paid, over-protected and constantly jostling to take a bigger share of the available resources available.

limnam · 28-11-2018 2:58pm

Teachers: "We want fair pay"

Will you take a pay cut to make it fair?

Teachers: "will we fck"

28-11-2018 3:06pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Personally, I don't give a **** about anyone's pay and conditions until I'm asked to fund it.

The money that the Government used to pay the eye-wateringly generous pay and pensions of the public servants is money that can't be used to fund much needed investment in schools, hospitals, roads, etc,

It is absolutely the business of every tax-payer in this country to question the value we are getting from public servants. They are over-paid, over-protected and constantly jostling to take a bigger share of the available resources available.

Schools & hospitals function due to the teachers, nurses and doctors that staff them. Cut the numbers and/or associated pay and conditions and services will suffer.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 3:07pm

limnam wrote: »

For someone starting in their first job yes it's fine.

I showed you clearly you could find a share for 280e

*shrug*

As I said. I'd hate to see the current lot in a _real_ crisis.

My own daft search showed that houseshares that cheap are like hen’s teeth. Finding one (and the one you found was a lodger situation) tells us very little. Like, how many applied to view the room, for example. I first moved to Dublin in 2002. Even then, €280 per month houseshares weren’t that common and you’d often often be sharing a room for that price and living in a kip.

But, I get it, you’re entrenched. It’s hard to climb out of that.

No idea what your ‘crises’ comment even means. You’ve no idea what anyone has been through.

facehugger99 · 28-11-2018 3:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Schools & hospitals function due to the teachers, nurses and doctors that staff them. Cut the numbers and/or associated pay and conditions and services will suffer.

What bollox,

Sure pay every nurse and teacher a salary of €1,000,000 each and we'd have the best health and system system in the world would we?

Teachers pay and pensions is hoovering up the money we have available to invest in education.

limnam · 28-11-2018 3:14pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

My own daft search showed that houseshares that cheap are like hen’s teeth. Finding one (and the one you found was a lodger situation) tells us very little. Like, how many applied to view the room, for example. I first moved to Dublin in 2002. Even then, €280 per month houseshares weren’t that common and you’d often often be sharing a room for that price and living in a kip.

But, I get it, you’re entrenched. It’s hard to climb out of that.

No idea what your ‘crises’ comment even means. You’ve no idea what anyone has been through.

It looks like you were not searching very well, as you missed a perfectly good room for 280e.

It means simply if people can't find a way to survive on 1300e a month. I wouldn't like to see them when the country is in a "real" crisis.

Remember this is on the assumption that someone is starting off in a new job in the public sector above minimum wage which was the example provided and they can't "afford" to live in Dublin.

It's rubbish.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 28-11-2018 3:20pm

limnam wrote: »

It looks like you were not searching very well, as you missed a perfectly good room for 280e.

It means simply if people can't find a way to survive on 1300e a month. I wouldn't like to see them when the country is in a "real" crisis.

Remember this is on the assumption that someone is starting off in a new job in the public sector above minimum wage which was the example provided and they can't "afford" to live in Dublin.

It's rubbish.

Sharing with a couple. And a baby.

I thought it was pretty terrible example actually that only strengthened my point. And I’m not sure how you’re having difficulty with the idea that any room that cheap will be inundated because it’s rare.

Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

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