Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

robindch · 09-10-2020 8:21am

Turns out that the unapproved antibody juice which #45 consumed last weekend to treat his mild dose of covid was produced by cell line derived from a foetus aborted in Holland in the 1970's. The 2020 Republican party opposes stem cell research, has successfully blocked some funding for it, and wants to block the lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/08/trump-covid-drug-developed-using-cells-derived-from-abortion

Igotadose · 10-10-2020 4:50pm

robindch wrote: »

Turns out that the unapproved antibody juice which #45 consumed last weekend to treat his mild dose of covid was produced by cell line derived from a foetus aborted in Holland in the 1970's. The 2020 Republican party opposes stem cell research, has successfully blocked some funding for it, and wants to block the lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/08/trump-covid-drug-developed-using-cells-derived-from-abortion

We're asking the Trumplodytes on the various Trump/election threads about this. None have raised an objection, in fact, none have commented at all. "With silence comes assention." So, all good, fetal stem cells for the win in any med research.

10-10-2020 5:51pm

Igotadose wrote: »

We're asking the Trumplodytes on the various Trump/election threads about this. None have raised an objection, in fact, none have commented at all. "With silence comes assention." So, all good, fetal stem cells for the win in any med research.

Not surprising, most pro lifers and trump supporters on here don't have an issue saying that migrants should be left to drown at sea.

Also reminds me of the fact that the Reagans in the U.S. were quite against abortion, treated hiv suffers with stigma etc, but when Ronnie got alzheimers Nancy was quite vocal on the push for stem cell research.

magicbastarder · 10-10-2020 6:00pm

turns out the trumps own shares in regeneron.

robarmstrong · 10-10-2020 7:05pm

DubInMeath wrote: »

Not surprising, most pro lifers and trump supporters on here don't have an issue saying that migrants should be left to drown at sea.

Also reminds me of the fact that the Reagans in the U.S. were quite against abortion, treated hiv suffers being treated without stigma etc, but when Ronnie got alzheimers Nancy was quite vocal on the push for stem cell research.

This is the part that annoys me the most.

It goes against their own moral code or standings until it affects them personally, which annoys me because straight away I'm thinking "so you had to wait until you were personally affected by this matter/issue before you changed your mind, previously condemning those who were in your exact shoes beforehand?".

Madness.

Igotadose · 10-10-2020 7:09pm

DubInMeath wrote: »

Not surprising, most pro lifers and trump supporters on here don't have an issue saying that migrants should be left to drown at sea.

Yeah, they're not pro life, they're pro birth (or, as I think of them, pro 'forced birthing.') Once born, fahgeddaboutit, and if they need something from a dead fetus, no problem.

10-10-2020 9:26pm

robarmstrong wrote: »

This is the part that annoys me the most.

It goes against their own moral code or standings until it affects them personally, which annoys me because straight away I'm thinking "so you had to wait until you were personally affected by this matter/issue before you changed your mind, previously condemning those who were in your exact shoes beforehand?".

Madness.

Pretty normal in my experience.
Neighbor of mine was always giving out about unmarried mothers and gossiping about other people's kids when I was younger until their own daughters got knocked up. As my dad said at the time, it soon got them to shut the f*ck up about the subject.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-10-2020 8:23pm

Covid restrictions make it difficult for Irish women seeking abortions to travel

Figures from the British Department of Health and Social Care, provided to The Irish Times under freedom of information legislation, show 101 Irish women travelled for abortions between January and June this year, compared with 215 during these months last year.

Since enactment of the 2018 Abortion Regulation Act there have been reports of doctors reluctant to certify a foetal abnormality as fatal where there is any doubt, and others of women not finding out they are pregnant until almost 12 weeks or later, and falling outside the Act.

A spokeswoman said the British Pregnancy Advisory Service had seen a “significant decline in the numbers of women travelling from the Republic of Ireland. Women who have travelled have met significant difficulties, including flights being cancelled at short notice, sometimes when women were at the airport, leaving women stranded.

“Women have also been left without accommodation due to hotels closing without any warning. During the height of lockdown when all flights were suspended, women were forced to make the journey via ferry and trains.”

Abortion Support Network director Mara Clarke said Covid had “added to the pile” of obstacles the women they support must overcome. “One woman arrived by ferry to Liverpool to find that the hotel we booked for her had given all their rooms to homeless and key workers,” she said, while some women with “fatal foetal indications are finding that many of the hospitals that used to provide care to them are closed to international patients”.

Cabaal · 31-10-2020 1:01pm

So we see the catholic church once again has its filthy hands involved in right wing politics in Poland, doing what it can do restrict womens rights and heakthcare.

Business as usual for the catholic church really.

lazygal · 01-11-2020 9:26pm

They know they lost in Ireland so they're off bothering more malleable states.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-11-2020 8:13pm

European Parliament says Polish government influenced abortion ban ruling

The European Parliament accused Poland’s nationalist government on Thursday of improperly influencing a court that imposed a near-total ban on abortion, and said that showed that the rule of law had collapsed in Poland.

The head of the court hit back, accusing the European Parliament of “unprecedented” interference in Polish affairs - the latest in a series of clashes between institutions in Warsaw and Brussels.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles have taken to the streets since an October 22nd Constitutional Tribunal ruling that sharply limited Poland’s already restrictive abortion laws.

The protests have seen a broader outpouring of anger at Poland’s nationalist rulers, with many criticising government judiciary reforms they say have allowed the ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party to hand pick judges.

Since coming to power in 2015, PiS has clashed with the European Union over the judiciary reforms, which the bloc says violate democratic standards. PiS has rejected such accusations.

Poland and Hungary vetoed the EU budget and a Covid-19 recovery fund this month, after member states sought to tie the funds to adherence to the rule of law.

The motion from members of the European Parliament described the abortion ruling as “yet another example of the political takeover of the judiciary and the systemic collapse of the rule of law in Poland”.

“The aforementioned ruling was pronounced by judges elected by and totally dependent on politicians from the PiS (Law and Justice)-led coalition,” it added.

The resolution called for EU institutions to do more to support sexual and reproductive health rights across member states and to support grassroots and civil society groups that foster the rule of law.

It passed with 455 votes for, 145 against and 71 abstentions.

Julia Przylebska, the head of Poland’s Constitutional Tribunal, accused the European Parliament’s lawmakers of interfering in internal issues.

“MEPs are entering into the area of the independence of the Constitutional Tribunal ... which violates the separation of powers, and thus the foundations of democracy,” she added.

Poland’s government has not yet published the court ruling on abortion, meaning it is not yet enforceable. PiS says the government is waiting for the court to provide a more detailed justification.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-12-2020 2:31pm

Anti-abortion TDs set up all-party group with aim to amend legislation

Anti-abortion TDs have set up a new all-party group and will seek to amend the legislation on abortion when it comes up for review next year.

Independent TD Carol Nolan said the amendments were likely to require that pain relief be administered to foetuses in the case of late-term abortions carried out on the grounds of fatal foetal abnormalities.

The new group, the Oireachtas Life and Dignity Group, was launched at Leinster House and published a call for what it called “a humane response” to the question of foetal pain.

“It is routine practice for unborn babies undergoing surgical procedures to be given pain relief to ensure they feel no pain or distress during the procedure,” the group said in a document published on Wednesday morning.

“Babies being aborted at an identical gestational age, however, are denied the same dignity and respect as they are regarded as non-persons in the eyes of the law and by those carrying out the abortion procedure,” it said.

Ms Nolan said that recent research had found that foetuses felt pain after 12 weeks’ gestation and said that she wanted to see “humanitarian pain relief for babies” required. She said the group would be “initiating discussions on the issue and down the road certainly there would be amendments tabled”.

The abortion legislation is due to be reviewed next year, three years after its passage.

This doesn't seem unreasonable in itself but I can't help but think they'll use this as a means to obstruct or restrict abortions in general. (And just how many prenatal anaesthetists are there in the country anyway?)

At least the IT didn't use the p** l*** term

In terms of actual meaningful change, the 3 day wait is complete BS and needs to go. 12 weeks LMP is really only 10 weeks since ovulation, and for some is a tight enough timescale. Those who have a pill abortion fail within the current legal period need access to a legal surgical abortion.

lazygal · 03-12-2020 3:12pm

The anti choice campaign have brought over US anti choice campaingers to train and advise their younger cohort especially. They've advised them the best way to proceed is to chip away at access because they've no chance of overturning the whole system of abortion provision. So I expect there will be an exclusive focus on so called late term abortions, with a heavy emphasis on how these are carried out and the doctors who don't want to provide this health care.
Of course, these people oppose all abortion, be it at three days, three months or 33 weeks, so they're being entirely disingenuous when they use one particular set of abortions as their focus. But they know most people in Ireland voted for abortion access so they want to use what they consider the extreme end to work away at trying to make abortion progressively more difficult to access.
There should be no legal limit on abortion. It is health care and being prescriptive about it in law makes no sense. Might as well dictate when c sections should be allowed. I strongly suspect the govt parties will make noises about how the people voted on the proposed 2018 legislation so no changes of any real substance will be made and people who need healthcare after 12 weeks of pregnancy who can't access it here will still have to travel.

nozzferrahhtoo · 03-12-2020 3:33pm

"Ms Nolan said that recent research had found that foetuses felt pain after 12 weeks’ gestation and said that she wanted to see “humanitarian pain relief for babies” required."

Would love to see the research she is referring to.

I suspect it is the same wildly misquoted and misunderstood "research" that the anti choicers on boards.ie like Outlaw Pete cited on occasion during their failed campaign against the Referendum.

Spoiler: it simply showed that a Fetus responds to stimuli, including stimuli we as ACTUALLY feeling human beings would refer to as "painful". But that in no way says that the fetus "feels" pain or the costly administration of pain medication would achieve a damn thing.

Although it triggered Pete every time I mentioned it.... even a single celled amoeba will respond to a needle. That does not mean it "feels" anything.

Igotadose · 03-12-2020 4:06pm

FWIW, and it took a few years for me to get around to it, but we've sworn off the Irish Independent from our household. Too many I Own Her 'opinion' columns masquerading as data. David Quinn's bad enough, but last week was abject nonsense, from a woman who claims to be a Psychologist who is also listed as a board member or sponsor of that Institute, going on about 'feticide' whatever the f*ck the anti-choice chooses that to mean. No more copies of the Independent being purchased here.

lazygal · 03-12-2020 4:53pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

"Ms Nolan said that recent research had found that foetuses felt pain after 12 weeks’ gestation and said that she wanted to see “humanitarian pain relief for babies” required."

I once asked an anti choicer who wanted 'pain relief' to be required for a foetus what would happen if the pregnant person refused the administration of said pain relief via their vagina or injection into the uterus via abdomen. They couldn't answer me. These pain relief amendment attempts are nothing more than an attempt to make all abortion access more difficult.
The same person couldn't tell me if a foetus being squeezed through the birth canal felt pain as the plates of the skull shifted to allow delivery via the vagina and should all people be required to allow foetal pain relief to be administered as soon as labour started just in case.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-12-2020 11:51pm

Igotadose, problem is you'll find the Irish Times has a weekly Iona column too! :rolleyes: and feck knows why this is, probably a warped idea that this is necessary for "balance".

BAI, RTE and IT seem to think that "balance" means giving religious nutters unfettered access to mass media. It's not. Facts have a pro-liberal, pro-choice bias... that's unfortunate for the opponents of facts, but screw 'em.

In reality, balance means that ideas with rational substance are heard, ideas without rational substance are NOT heard except by those who choose to be misled.

end of the road · 04-12-2020 12:29am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Facts have a pro-liberal, pro-choice bias... that's unfortunate for the opponents of facts, but screw 'em.

in your opinion.
you forgot to mention that.

Bannasidhe · 04-12-2020 1:40am

end of the road wrote: »

in your opinion.
you forgot to mention that.

Mod

Verging on backseat modding there.
Just thought I'd mention that.

eviltwin · 04-12-2020 9:52am

I’d forgotten the legislation is coming up for review. Don’t know about anyone else but I’m not looking forward to more abortion debate. I wonder will they get much support.

Igotadose · 04-12-2020 10:00am

lazygal wrote: »

The anti choice campaign have brought over US anti choice campaingers to train and advise their younger cohort especially. They've advised them the best way to proceed is to chip away at access because they've no chance of overturning the whole system of abortion provision. So I expect there will be an exclusive focus on so called late term abortions, with a heavy emphasis on how these are carried out and the doctors who don't want to provide this health care.
Of course, these people oppose all abortion, be it at three days, three months or 33 weeks, so they're being entirely disingenuous when they use one particular set of abortions as their focus. But they know most people in Ireland voted for abortion access so they want to use what they consider the extreme end to work away at trying to make abortion progressively more difficult to access.
There should be no legal limit on abortion. It is health care and being prescriptive about it in law makes no sense. Might as well dictate when c sections should be allowed. I strongly suspect the govt parties will make noises about how the people voted on the proposed 2018 legislation so no changes of any real substance will be made and people who need healthcare after 12 weeks of pregnancy who can't access it here will still have to travel.

100% agree. Also, no more 3 day 'cooling off' nonsense. Just putting women on the back foot, which is what anti-choice has always been about. You should never be required to travel abroad from Ireland for medical care, especially safe well proven medical care.

nozzferrahhtoo · 04-12-2020 11:19am

eviltwin wrote: »

I’m not looking forward to more abortion debate.

Hah I wonder how many users of the site read the story and thought "Oh crap we're gonna get an ass load more of nozzferrahhtoo now arent we".

Think even the people who agree with me on the issue(s) were/are sick of me at this stage

Hotblack Desiato · 04-12-2020 11:23am

eviltwin wrote: »

I’d forgotten the legislation is coming up for review. Don’t know about anyone else but I’m not looking forward to more abortion debate.

I am

This is only abortion law mk.1. The bare minimum.

We need to liberalise the law substantially.

lazygal · 04-12-2020 11:53am

There should never have been a compromise on non fatal anomalies.

volchitsa · 04-12-2020 12:02pm

lazygal wrote: »

There should never have been a compromise on non fatal anomalies.

Yes that's been a problem. Predictably. It's not like women weren't traveling for that reason before the reform.

I suspect the recent article(s) about medical staff supposedly being traumatised by carrying out late terminations was in preparation for this review, so they'll be looking to reduce that access, not broaden it.

lazygal · 04-12-2020 12:22pm

The medical staff being traumatised isn't a reason to reduce access. Better training is required. Its clearly a clumsy attempt by anti choice elements in the medical profession to chip away at access.

volchitsa · 04-12-2020 2:33pm

lazygal wrote: »

The medical staff being traumatised isn't a reason to reduce access. Better training is required. Its clearly a clumsy attempt by anti choice elements in the medical profession to chip away at access.

And I don't even know that they were, because the study itself was behind a paywall so all I saw of it was how it was being spun by Iona-heads.

That said, I'm sure it's a terrible situation to be in - but that's a result of the terrible diagnosis. It's not because couples are just rocking up for late abortions for the heck of it. I don't think sending them off to England was really any better, except in an "out of sight out of mind" way. Nor could sending them home to wait and then dealing with a dying baby and distraught parents a few months later be any easier.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-12-2020 6:29pm

Renua being as classless as ever.

https://twitter.com/RENUAIreland/status/1335262239893368834?s=19

RENUA IRELAND
@RENUAIreland
·
Dec 5
If Min. McEntee can rightly recognise the humanity of her own unborn child (baby on board) then she can surely accept that the thousands of unborn children killed under her party's abortion regime were human too - as deserving of life as all humans.
Justice Minister Helen McEntee announces pregnancy
McEntee is the first woman to announce a pregnancy while in Cabinet.
thejournal.ie
RENUA IRELAND
@RENUAIreland
·
Dec 5
6,666 lives snuffed out, spare us the faux outrage. Is it only a baby when it's wanted?

aloyisious · 10-12-2020 1:00am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Renua being as classless as ever.

https://twitter.com/RENUAIreland/status/1335262239893368834?s=19

Pointless pointing out to them that our country's governments [including the ones Renua's forebears were in] had an abortion policy prior to the legalisation of terminations here and that policy was to silently, complicitly, go along with the terminations to be done abroad - the three wise monkeys trick.

smacl · 10-12-2020 3:45pm

I see in the Irish Times today that according to the Catholic Church it is ‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells. Seems like the height of hypocrisy from where I'm sitting though not sure what else they could say.

Bredabe · 10-12-2020 3:49pm

smacl wrote: »

I see in the Irish Times today that according to the Catholic Church it is ‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells. Seems like the height of hypocrisy from where I'm sitting though not sure what else they could say.

I read that, who but them would thinking of such a thing, especially in a lifesaving vaccine.
IMO more evidence of their fixation on things none of their business.
Surely saving a life is a life saved? looking too closely at the details of that is just looking for something to depress themselves with. funny tho, when I was growning up things were always god's will and had to be quietly accepted. Seems that doesn't apply to the clergy.

smacl · 10-12-2020 4:01pm

Bredabe wrote: »

I read that, who but them would thinking of such a thing, especially in a lifesaving vaccine.
IMO more evidence of their fixation on things none of their business.
Surely saving a life is a life saved? looking too closely at the details of that is just looking for something to depress themselves with. funny tho, when I was growning up things were always god's will and had to be quietly accepted. Seems that doesn't apply to the clergy.

Yep, god's will or, failing all else, mysterious ways. Their PR people seem to be losing their touch.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-12-2020 4:05pm

Whisper it but there are all sorts of human cell lines being used in research, one of the most famous ones derives from a cell culture taken without consent from a woman who died in 1951.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

The Nazis did research into immersion hypothermia using unwilling live subjects during WWII, later the rest of the world used this research to save lives.

Ethical?

Yes if you ask me. Wrong was certainly done but what's done is done, and to discard the good that could derive from it only harms still-alive and yet-to-be-born humans for no good reason.

ohnonotgmail · 10-12-2020 4:28pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Whisper it but there are all sorts of human cell lines being used in research, one of the most famous ones derives from a cell culture taken without consent from a woman who died in 1951.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

The Nazis did research into immersion hypothermia using unwilling live subjects during WWII, later the rest of the world used this research to save lives.

Ethical?

Yes if you ask me. Wrong was certainly done but what's done is done, and to discard the good that could derive from it only harms still-alive and yet-to-be-born humans for no good reason.

the dachau experiments on hypothermia are of dubious scientific value at best. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199005173222006

As for the HeLa the biggest controversy was that the institution that initially cultured them made massive amounts of money from them and passed none of it on to the woman involved.

10-12-2020 9:50pm

smacl wrote: »

I see in the Irish Times today that according to the Catholic Church it is ‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells. Seems like the height of hypocrisy from where I'm sitting though not sure what else they could say.

It's going to trigger the more conspiracy theory based religious believers.

eviltwin · 10-12-2020 9:58pm

Imagine being of the mentality that you would take your public health guidance from a man who worships a fantasy figure.

10-12-2020 11:34pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Imagine being of the mentality that you would take your public health guidance from a man who worships a fantasy figure.

No different in a way than those who take it from Facebook etc and out and out grifters.

Igotadose · 11-12-2020 7:27pm

Argentina's lower house of Government passes abortion legalization. Abortion will be legal until the 14th week.

This is a big deal for them, a very conservative, predominantly Catholic country, almost there to legalizing abortion. Still needs to be passed by the Argentine Senate.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/argentina-abortion-lower-house-vote-b1769959.html

Hotblack Desiato · 12-12-2020 5:38pm

A similar law was blocked there in 2018.

Igotadose · 12-12-2020 6:33pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A similar law was blocked there in 2018.

Well, fingers crossed it doesn't happen this time. The article I linked said the feeling was it would go through the Argentine Senate, too.

Hotblack Desiato · 14-12-2020 1:19am

It appears the current government was elected with a pro-choice mandate, so as you say, fingers crossed...

Imagine how crazy the debate would have been here in 2018 though if we'd had an Irish pope!!!

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2020 2:20am

Man charged with termination of a pregnancy

A man has appeared in court charged with the termination of a pregnancy.

The man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was before Letterkenny District Court in Co Donegal on Monday.

Garda PJ Folan told the court that the accused man was arrested by arrangement at Letterkenny Courthouse.

The man was charged under Section 23(2) of the Health (regulation of termination of pregnancy) Act 2018 on February 14th, 2020 in Letterkenny.

The act says it is an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument or apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

Garda Folan said the man, who was represented by solicitor Rory O’Brien, made no reply when the charges were put to him.

The court heard the man had already appeared at Letterkenny District Court on a Section 3 assault charge on December 7th and that this was a related matter.

Garda Sergeant Jim Collins said the Director of Public Prosecutions had sent the case forward to Letterkenny Circuit Court.

Gardaí said they had no objection to bail but asked the court to apply a number of conditions.

They include that he does not interfere with witnesses in the case or the alleged injured party, provide a mobile phone, surrender his passport and sign on twice a week at Blanchardstown Garda station.

The court also ordered that if the accused is driving through Co Meath he does not stop in the county.

Judge Paul Kelly adjourned the case until February 8th to Letterkenny Circuit Court for the service of a book of evidence in the case.

Mules · 15-12-2020 2:48am

I read the article in the independent about the report in to late term abortions in Ireland. It describes babies being born alive and left to die. I support abortion but that is seriously wrong. It's not all fatal fetal abnormalities. There are other situations too. One doctor described how he delivered a baby (he used the term baby rather than fetus), anyway, it was an abortion but the baby was born alive. The doctor thought to himself 'what would happen to it, would there be anyone to look after it' and then decided to let it die

I found that horrific and very upsetting. I genuinely believed the government when they said that doctors would deliver viable pregnancies and put them up for adoption. Very naive of me in hindsight.

To be honest it shocked me to the core that anyone thinks this is ok. It's an emotive topic so I know how debate gets heated but out of curiosity, is anyone on the thread ok with the example the doctor gave? If so what's your reasoning? I'm not interested in arguing, I'd just like to understand how other people think about these things.

gctest50 · 15-12-2020 3:03am

This indo artice or another one ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ive-been-called-a-murderer-hitler-woman-who-travelled-to-the-uk-for-abortion-calls-for-an-end-to-stigma-35502293.html

The mother-of-one, desperate to have her impossible little girl, kept returning to the doctor, to see if there was any hope the baby could survive.

“And every time he told me she would pass away,” the woman said.

“By 18 weeks, we got the results which confirmed she had a complete extra set of chromosomes and that variant was fatal. There was no hope.

Mules · 15-12-2020 3:12am

gctest50 wrote: »

This indo artice or another one ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ive-been-called-a-murderer-hitler-woman-who-travelled-to-the-uk-for-abortion-calls-for-an-end-to-stigma-35502293.html

It was one that was out a few days ago. Maybe a week ago. It was reporting on a study in a British medical journal about late term abortions in Ireland since repeal. I'll try to find the link.

Mules · 15-12-2020 3:16am

Here's the link.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/pro-life-side-were-called-scaremongerers-but-what-we-warned-of-is-now-happening-39782972.html

gctest50 · 15-12-2020 3:18am

This study ? :

Fetal medicine specialist experiences of providing a new service of termination of pregnancy for fatal fetal anomaly: a qualitative study

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.16502?af=R

As plastered on the Aontuuuu website

Which part of fatal do you have difficulty understanding ?
.

Mules · 15-12-2020 3:23am

gctest50 wrote: »

This study ? :

Fetal medicine specialist experiences of providing a new service of termination of pregnancy for fatal fetal anomaly: a qualitative study

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.16502?af=R

As plastered on the Aontuuuu website

Which part of fatal do you not understand ?

The problem the doctors are having is it's not fatal as in the fetus is born dead or near death.. It's that it can live for weeks or months so it's not black and white. When I thought of fatal during the referendum, I thought it meant 'will be born dead or will die immediately' The study quotes a description given as 'not fatal enough' I think that's a good description.

gctest50 · 15-12-2020 3:32am

Mules wrote: »

Here's the link.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/pro-life-side-were-called-scaremongerers-but-what-we-warned-of-is-now-happening-39782972.html

That's a link to part of an opinion piece by some patron of the Iona Institute

Any link to the actual study ?

Mules · 15-12-2020 3:35am

gctest50 wrote: »

That's a link to part of an opinion piece by some patron of the Iona Institute

Any link to the actual study ?

Regardless of the views of the journalist, the study you posted details the facts. They are no different than what's in the indo article.

Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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