RaboPro12 13/14 season thread

Buer · 29-10-2013 2:10pm

Visser ruled out of the game for up to the next 4 months after fracturing his shin. Will miss the rest of the HEC and possibly early games in the 6N also.

who_me · 30-10-2013 5:34pm

Interesting stat from Peter Jackon's latest column: link

He's comparing tries scored vs goals (penalties/conversions). Munster unusually scoring more tries than goals? Wat?? Zebre's try rate isn't bad at all.

Munster 1.06 (16 tries, 15 pens)
Ospreys 1.00 (20 tries, 17 pens, 3 drops)
Glasgow Warriors 0.82 (9 tries, 11 pens)
Connacht 0.80 (8 tries, 10 pens)
Zebre 0.77 (10 tries, 13 pens)
Ulster 0.72 (13 tries, 18 pens)
Leinster 0.68 (13 tries, 18 pens, 1 drop)
Benetton Treviso 0.47 (8 tries, 17 pens)
Newport Dragons 0.47 (8 tries, 15 pens, 2 drops)
Scarlets 0.42 (8 tries, 19 pens)
Edinburgh 0.37 (6 tries, 16 pens)
Cardiff Blues 0.25 (7 tries, 26 pens, 2 drops)

jacothelad · 31-10-2013 2:29pm

who_me wrote: »

Interesting stat from Peter Jackon's latest column: link

He's comparing tries scored vs goals (penalties/conversions). Munster unusually scoring more tries than goals? Wat?? Zebre's try rate isn't bad at all.

Munster 1.06 (16 tries, 15 pens)
Ospreys 1.00 (20 tries, 17 pens, 3 drops)
Glasgow Warriors 0.82 (9 tries, 11 pens)
Connacht 0.80 (8 tries, 10 pens)
Zebre 0.77 (10 tries, 13 pens)
Ulster 0.72 (13 tries, 18 pens)
Leinster 0.68 (13 tries, 18 pens, 1 drop)
Benetton Treviso 0.47 (8 tries, 17 pens)
Newport Dragons 0.47 (8 tries, 15 pens, 2 drops)
Scarlets 0.42 (8 tries, 19 pens)
Edinburgh 0.37 (6 tries, 16 pens)
Cardiff Blues 0.25 (7 tries, 26 pens, 2 drops)

It's pretty pointless. No non pun in 10 did.

who_me · 31-10-2013 2:55pm

jacothelad wrote: »

It's pretty pointless. No non pun in 10 did.

I don't think so.

If a team has a low try count but high penalty count it could be indicative of a side putting on a lot of pressure but with little cutting edge. Conversely, a team with a high try:goal ratio has probably more attacking penetration, scoring off relatively little domination of possession.

...or just a terrible goal kicker.

Tox56 · 31-10-2013 6:19pm

who_me wrote: »

I don't think so.

If a team has a low try count but high penalty count it could be indicative of a side putting on a lot of pressure but with little cutting edge. Conversely, a team with a high try:goal ratio has probably more attacking penetration, scoring off relatively little domination of possession.

...or just a terrible goal kicker.

I wouldn't have put Connacht and Zebre in the top 5 in the league or Munster first in terms of 'attacking penetration', I don't think you can read that much into it

jacothelad · 01-11-2013 7:31pm

who_me wrote: »

I don't think so.

If a team has a low try count but high penalty count it could be indicative of a side putting on a lot of pressure but with little cutting edge. Conversely, a team with a high try:goal ratio has probably more attacking penetration, scoring off relatively little domination of possession.

...or just a terrible goal kicker.

"a team with a high try:goal ratio has probably more attacking penetration, scoring off relatively little domination of possession."

It doesn't mean diddley squat at the moment. Munster for example scored 14 of their tries against 4 of the weakest teams in the league so there is no weighting given to results. Scoring 5 tries against Embra for example isn't the same as scoring 5 against Ospreys (here's hoping...:cool:).

Perhaps at the end of the season when everyone has played against everyone else it might provide a bit of interest but even then it depends who you play during the international windows. Simply dividing the number of penalty goals by the number of tries scored is daft.. As you point out if you have a poor kicker and don't score all your kickable goals it makes the whole thing meaningless.

Take Jackson for example. He has missed, I think, about 10 fairly kickable penalties so far this season. If he had converted those - as Biggar or Madigan or Keatley would have done - Ulster's figures would be 13 tries and 28 penalty goals. This would give a figure of 0.46. Does this now mean that if Paddy was a better goal kicker Ulster would now be considered a team lacking in penetration. It's ballix frankly.

thomond2006 · 01-11-2013 9:42pm

Edinburgh 12-17 Zebre at half-time.

thomond2006 · 02-11-2013 4:18pm

Zebre got a LBP last night, not too bad a result.

Cardiff are down 10-13 to Treviso at half-time.

molloyjh · 12-11-2013 8:45pm

Unconfirmed reports of Davies heading to Clermont....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10442435/Jonathan-Davies-to-join-Clermont-Auvergne-from-Llanelli-Scarlets-as-exodus-of-Wales-players-to-France-continues.html

CatFromHue · 12-11-2013 8:48pm

I thought it was confirmed?

Not sure how many games he'll have left for Lanelli now as I think his chest injury has ruled him out of the 6N.

Edit: Or maybe just out of the start of the 6N

molloyjh · 12-11-2013 8:53pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I thought it was confirmed?

Not sure how many games he'll have left for Lanelli now as I think his chest injury has ruled him out of the 6N.

Edit: Or maybe just out of the start of the 6N

Haven't seen it officially confirmed but maybe. Either way there's no end in sight to this problem for the Welsh which is bad news for the Pro12.

Buer · 12-11-2013 8:53pm

It is confirmed according to other reports. He's ruled out for 4 months so I'd say there's a good chance he'll miss all of the 6N or, at best, get back for the last game or two.

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/205775.html

Tox56 · 12-11-2013 9:02pm

Buer wrote: »

It is confirmed according to other reports. He's ruled out for 4 months so I'd say there's a good chance he'll miss all of the 6N or, at best, get back for the last game or two.

http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/205775.html

No BOD v Davies 6 Nations showdown?

Buer · 12-11-2013 9:04pm

Tox56 wrote: »

No BOD v Davies 6 Nations showdown?

8th February so almost certainly not.

Buer · 12-11-2013 9:10pm

Also worth noting that Scott Williams and Rhys Priestland, Scarlets other two regular internationals, are out of contract this season.

matthew8 · 22-11-2013 10:02pm

Dragons pulling off the upset in Glasgow, 20-8 up with 20 left.

thomond2006 · 22-11-2013 10:03pm

That would be a serious favour to the Irish sides! C'mon Dragons!

its_phil · 22-11-2013 10:16pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

That would be a serious favour to the Irish sides! C'mon Dragons!

3/4 Irish sides...

vienne86 · 22-11-2013 10:19pm

Still 8 - 20, only 5 minutes to go. C'mon Dragons!!

Sorry, update, now 8 - 23, drop goal from Tovey!

thomond2006 · 22-11-2013 10:32pm

8-23, cheers NGD!

former legend · 22-11-2013 10:35pm

Massive result. Losing at home to the Dragons was not in Glasgow's script.

In one way, the Dragons benefit from being sh*t because they don't lose too many players in the international windows.

CatFromHue · 23-11-2013 4:21pm

Ospreys beating Zebre 15-13 at halftime. All Ospreys points have come from penalties and Zebre were leading right up until the very end of the half.

CatFromHue · 23-11-2013 5:36pm

Finished 30-20 with a late penalty for Ospreys denying Zebre a LBP and only two tries for Ospreys so no try BP for them.

Good result for all the Irish teams so.

phog · 23-11-2013 10:04pm

from twitter

BZyJa8UIIAAweQl.jpg:large

Best Leinster can do tomorrow is move up to joint 2nd place.

Next week the fixtures are:

Ospreys Glasgow
Dragons Munster
Edinburgh Connacht
Treviso Cardiff
Zebre Ulster
Leinster Scarlets

Buer · 24-11-2013 12:07pm

Bradley Davies apparently hitting the road. Can the last rugby player in Wales turn out the lights when he leaves?

The Pro12 will fall into disrepair completely if this keeps up. It will be a league consisting of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Glasgow.

thomond2006 · 25-11-2013 2:41pm

Buer wrote: »

Bradley Davies apparently hitting the road. Can the last rugby player in Wales turn out the lights when he leaves?

The Pro12 will fall into disrepair completely if this keeps up. It will be a league consisting of Munster, Leinster, Ulster and Glasgow.

The regions and the union are constantly at loggerheads and while that infighting is happening they are hemorrhaging players.

A regional starter moving to Wasps is quite something though, I understand going to the Toulons or the Clermonts of the world but Wasps?! That's a very bad sign for the regions, imagine if a provincial starter in Ireland (who is not quite in the international picture) moved to a low level English club! Of course there's Tom Court but he is 33 and was offered a 3 year deal. Bradley Davies turns 27 in January and is in his prime.

As you say the league suffers as a whole.

CatFromHue · 25-11-2013 3:02pm

Don't the Welsh have a salary cap of 3.5m for their Senior squad.

So if a squad is 30 players big that's an average of 116K each.

Granted that's a fairly simple calculation but the money could be better in loads of other places.

Also Davies plays for Cardiff so Wasps could well be a move up in the world.

Buer · 25-11-2013 6:41pm

Wasps coach is Dai Young which probably has an influence on Davies decision.

Anyway, with Wales playing yet again this weekend, it's a great opportunity for Leinster, Munster, Treviso and Glasgow to catch their Welsh opponents without their internationals while they've theirs back. Particularly good opportunity for BT to host Cardiff and get a win. Hopefully Glasgow bring back their internationals and claw a win in Swansea too. Would be superb results for Leinster and Munster.

Ulster and Connacht, unfortunately, have to make do with trips to Zebre and Edinburgh respectively.

CatFromHue · 25-11-2013 6:52pm

I could defo see the anger from the clubs towards the WRU. This season both Cardiff and Lanelli have actually their best chances in years making the knock out of the HEC but they won't have any preparation games before the back to back games due to Wales playing this weekend.

Cardiff have Glasgow and Lanelli have Clermont as their back to back games.Cardiff are 11 points behind a play off spot and Lanelli 5 in the Rabo.

These are really season defining games for both those clubs.

OldRio · 28-11-2013 1:43pm

TV Coverage of the Irish teams this weekend is a bit of a mixed bag.

Friday
Dragons v Munster. No coverage.
Glasgow v Connacht. No coverage.

Saturday
Zebre v Ulster. 1400hrs RTE
Leinster v Scarlets. 1915hrs TG4/S4C

Taco Corp · 28-11-2013 3:29pm

OldRio wrote: »

TV Coverage of the Irish teams this weekend is a bit of a mixed bag.

Friday
Dragons v Munster. No coverage.
Glasgow v Connacht. No coverage.

Saturday
Zebre v Ulster. 1400hrs RTE
Leinster v Scarlets. 1915hrs TG4/S4C

The ulster one is a bit bizarre, being on RTE. There's no home broadcaster for the Dragons game (according to the fixture list) which is competing with the Ospreys v Glasgow game on BBC Wales.

molloyjh · 28-11-2013 3:32pm

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

The ulster one is a bit bizarre, being on RTE. There's no home broadcaster for the Dragons game (according to the fixture list) which is competing with the Ospreys v Glasgow game on BBC Wales.

RTE aren't showing anything of any real note on the Friday and TG4 are showing boxing. BBCNI have the RL final on. Still a surprise that RTE went with the Ulster game. I'd have thought the Munster one would be the obvious choice for them?

Podge_irl · 28-11-2013 3:34pm

They're presumable picking up an Italian stream and didn't want to have to send their own cameras anywhere.

awec · 28-11-2013 4:01pm

Be weird watching us on RTE.

former legend · 28-11-2013 4:36pm

molloyjh wrote: »

RTE aren't showing anything of any real note on the Friday and TG4 are showing boxing. BBCNI have the RL final on. Still a surprise that RTE went with the Ulster game. I'd have thought the Munster one would be the obvious choice for them?

But they would never send cameras to Wales for a match; they would always rely on BBCW or S4C to provide the feed which isn't available tomorrow.

Swan Curry · 28-11-2013 6:02pm

Could part of the lack of coverage on the Friday be that they don't want anything good enough on to make people switch from the Late Late Toy Show?

molloyjh · 28-11-2013 6:05pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

Could part of the lack of coverage on the Friday be that they don't want anything good enough on to make people switch from the Late Late Toy Show?

Nah Podge and FL nailed it. No Irish station will be sending cameras abroad so if the Welsh and Scottish stations aren't covering the Munster and Connacht games respectively and TG4 got the rights of the Leinster game, the only one left is the Ulster game.

who_me · 29-11-2013 7:33pm

Might be just a case of me throwing my toys out of the pram.. but it doesn't help the profile of the Pro12 when the visit of the league leaders doesn't merit deferred coverage or even highlights. A condition of the awarding of TV rights should be that at least a highlights package be recorded for every single game.

irishbucsfan · 29-11-2013 7:41pm

who_me wrote: »

Might be just a case of me throwing my toys out of the pram.. but it doesn't help the profile of the Pro12 when the visit of the league leaders doesn't merit deferred coverage or even highlights. A condition of the awarding of TV rights should be that at least a highlights package be recorded for every single game.

Don't think it was a condition this time around, but with Sky taking the best game each week from next season hopefully the FTA broadcasters will be more likely to televise the smaller games. Someday we'll get them all!

Tox56 · 29-11-2013 7:54pm

who_me wrote: »

Might be just a case of me throwing my toys out of the pram.. but it doesn't help the profile of the Pro12 when the visit of the league leaders doesn't merit deferred coverage or even highlights. A condition of the awarding of TV rights should be that at least a highlights package be recorded for every single game.

Are you sure Munster won't put up their own highlights? That's what Leinster did when they went to the Dragons last season

CatFromHue · 29-11-2013 8:34pm

who_me wrote: »

Might be just a case of me throwing my toys out of the pram.. but it doesn't help the profile of the Pro12 when the visit of the league leaders doesn't merit deferred coverage or even highlights. A condition of the awarding of TV rights should be that at least a highlights package be recorded for every single game.

There probably will be highlights to some degree of the Munster match on RTE or TG4 tomorrow. There usually is a round up of a min or so.

You can't argue to much with the Welsh stations for showing Second v Fourth instead of Seventh v First especially when third v sixth will also be shown on Welsh TV tomorrow.

who_me · 29-11-2013 8:55pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Don't think it was a condition this time around, but with Sky taking the best game each week from next season hopefully the FTA broadcasters will be more likely to televise the smaller games. Someday we'll get them all!

Hah, I like your "silver lining" view point.

Do we actually know which games Sky are getting? If they pick the plum ties from every round, it wouldn't surprise me if other broadcasters end up dropping away rather than cover lower-interest ties. I'd love to think you're right, but if Sky get a preferential deal I'd worry that won't be the case.

I know people may argue there isn't a massive audience for (non derby) regular season Pro12 games, so they aren't shown. But IMO it's circular. If they aren't shown, interest dies down, the hype fades away. If they are shown, the "it's on TV, it must be important" mentality kicks in, the hype grows.

I know in F1 Ecclestone did a superb job in changing the sport from a relatively marginal sport into one of the major global money generators. One of his methods is to charge cities an arm and a leg for hosting privileges - the result: there are no half-assed hosting attempts. Every host is "all in".

I'd love to see a similar philosophy in rugby. Force all stakeholders (teams, Unions, TV rights holders) to commit to the tournament fully. No fielding second teams for the hell of it, no pulling all the internationals out for weeks at a time for training camps, no scattered coverage.

That's why I thought the millions the Italians had to pay to join the tournament were a great idea - IF it was repaid based on performance criteria - matches won, attendance figures met etc. (on the other hand, if it just goes into the other sides' pockets, not such a good idea!)

who_me · 29-11-2013 8:56pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Are you sure Munster won't put up their own highlights? That's what Leinster did when they went to the Dragons last season

Better than nothing! But one guy with a shaky camcorder isn't exactly what we should be getting for a tie like this.

Tox56 · 29-11-2013 9:00pm

who_me wrote: »

Better than nothing! But one guy with a shaky camcorder isn't exactly what we should be getting for a tie like this.

In the grand scheme of things it isn't really the biggest game though, it's the first place team yes, but it's a mid season game against the league's perennial cellar dwellers. In 10 years (or even 10 months) there won't be people lamenting the day they missed an under strength Munster play the Dragons at Rodney Parade

its_phil · 29-11-2013 9:03pm

Henshaw starts run up to try combines with Griffin and McSharry and finishes in the corner

pappyodaniel · 29-11-2013 9:13pm

its_phil wrote: »

Henshaw starts run up to try combines with Griffin and McSharry and finishes in the corner

Score?

who_me · 29-11-2013 9:14pm

Tox56 wrote: »

In the grand scheme of things it isn't really the biggest game though, it's the first place team yes, but it's a mid season game against the league's perennial cellar dwellers. In 10 years (or even 10 months) there won't be people lamenting the day they missed an under strength Munster play the Dragons at Rodney Parade

No one's suggesting it's an epic tie. But if we want the Pro12's stature and profile to grow, having games not televised in the participants' nations is a bit of an own-goal. If a match isn't televised, it's essentially "out of mind".

It's not as if there are 20 teams vying for coverage and attention. There are only 4 teams in both Wales and Ireland, and it's extremely rare for all 4 to have home games on the same weekend.

No one can complain about fans/players not being interested in the Pro12 if the coverage is sporadic.

CatFromHue · 29-11-2013 9:21pm

Errr but the Ospreys are playing at home tonight against another top 4 team.

The coverage isn't sporadic either. There'll be 2 live games on Irish TV tomorrow and there's a live game on in Wales tonight. BT Sport, which is a specialist sports station, is only showing 3 Aviva Premiership games this weekend. Neither Sky Sports or ESPN don't have any Aviva Premiership games this weekend.

thomond2006 · 29-11-2013 9:25pm

who_me wrote: »

No one's suggesting it's an epic tie. But if we want the Pro12's stature and profile to grow, having games not televised in the participants' nations is a bit of an own-goal. If a match isn't televised, it's essentially "out of mind".

It's not as if there are 20 teams vying for coverage and attention. There are only 4 teams in both Wales and Ireland, and it's extremely rare for all 4 to have home games on the same weekend.

No one can complain about fans/players not being interested in the Pro12 if the coverage is sporadic.

Munster's next ten league matches are televised so we can't complain. It's Connacht that really get effed over.

CatFromHue · 29-11-2013 9:31pm

In fairness Connacht are bottom of the Rabo now and would have one of the smaller fan bases in the league but will still have 6 out of their next 10 Rabo games televised. It's not perfect but it's not terrible either. Of the games that aren't televised three are at home too.

RaboPro12 13/14 season thread

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