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WHS - Slopes

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    #92
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Kingswood Rover wrote: »
    WTF are you guys talking about, jeez it sounds very complicated
    It is MASSIVELY complicated. But the calculations really shouldn't be something we should be bothered about. Your Handicap Index is all you really need to know and that will change much the same as your handicap changes currently.



    My posts here are purely for the pointy heads on here who like this kind of thing. :D


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    #93
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Mods
    any chance we can merge these 2 threads please

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106203569


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    #94
    Rikand
    Registered Users Posts: 20,340 ✭✭✭✭Rikand


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    It is MASSIVELY complicated. But the calculations really shouldn't be something we should be bothered about. Your Handicap Index is all you really need to know and that will change much the same as your handicap changes currently.



    My posts here are purely for the pointy heads on here who like this kind of thing. :D

    I like this kind of thing!


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    #95
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Russman


    Given this is such a huge change, does anyone know if there will be any workshops/presentations etc for clubs & members to explain the nuts and bolts of it ? As opposed to it being just on the website.


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    #96
    HighLine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭HighLine


    Russman wrote: »
    Given this is such a huge change, does anyone know if there will be any workshops/presentations etc for clubs & members to explain the nuts and bolts of it ? As opposed to it being just on the website.

    We have an information night at my club for members on Friday night.. one presentation about the new handicapping system and the other about rules. I don't expect many to attend. Unfortunately a high number of members just aren't interested in educating themselves on either subject. (I can sort of understand their unwillingness to learn about the new handicap system because at the end of the day, members don't really need to worry about it)

    Whenever I post anything rules related/handicap information on our club's social media, it garners zero interest. Yet I will go out to play week in week out and witness guys who have played for 20 years asking me how to take a drop from an unplayable lie :mad:


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    #97
    Golfgraffix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Golfgraffix


    Russman wrote: »
    Given this is such a huge change, does anyone know if there will be any workshops/presentations etc for clubs & members to explain the nuts and bolts of it ? As opposed to it being just on the website.

    I booked myself in for the Golf Ireland night in Malahide Golf Club on the 24th.


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    #98
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Russman wrote: »
    Given this is such a huge change, does anyone know if there will be any workshops/presentations etc for clubs & members to explain the nuts and bolts of it ? As opposed to it being just on the website.
    There have been (presumably on a continuing basis) WHS seminars for club handicap and competition secretaries.


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    #99
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Russman


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    There have been (presumably on a continuing basis) WHS seminars for club handicap and competition secretaries.

    Yeah, I knew they were happening alright. I was kinda thinking of the general membership though, I mean most guys know there's some class of a new system coming in, but, just from random conversations in the clubhouse, there's about 10 different versions (at least) that people think are coming.
    I appreciate there will be a WHS website and Golf Ireland presumably will have info on their site, but (and apologies if its not PC to say this, I don't mean it disparagingly at all) for lots of average golfers, say, middle aged to elderly, they won't really be interested in going online to research the new WHS, its hard enough to get some of them to use an online timesheet, never mind see how slope and course ratings work.
    I think Golf Ireland should really look at doing presentations or workshops in clubs over the summer, it wouldn't have to be every club, you could run it in areas that might have 3 or 4 clubs very close to each other. Obviously plenty of guys won't be interested but you might get 40 or 50 in every club who are.
    I dunno, just IMO.


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    #100
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Russman wrote: »
    Yeah, I knew they were happening alright. I was kinda thinking of the general membership though, I mean most guys know there's some class of a new system coming in, but, just from random conversations in the clubhouse, there's about 10 different versions (at least) that people think are coming.
    I appreciate there will be a WHS website and Golf Ireland presumably will have info on their site, but (and apologies if its not PC to say this, I don't mean it disparagingly at all) for lots of average golfers, say, middle aged to elderly, they won't really be interested in going online to research the new WHS, its hard enough to get some of them to use an online timesheet, never mind see how slope and course ratings work.
    I think Golf Ireland should really look at doing presentations or workshops in clubs over the summer, it wouldn't have to be every club, you could run it in areas that might have 3 or 4 clubs very close to each other. Obviously plenty of guys won't be interested but you might get 40 or 50 in every club who are.
    I dunno, just IMO.
    I imagine that they intend golf clubs to do this themselves. So they have seminars for the club competition and handicap secretaries and they in turn brief their members.

    Though I suspect that (as said above) the interest may not be as strong as we'd like to think it is.


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    #101
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Russman


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I imagine that they intend golf clubs to do this themselves. So they have seminars for the club competition and handicap secretaries and they in turn brief their members.

    Though I suspect that (as said above) the interest may not be as strong as we'd like to think it is.

    You'd hope that to be the case. Maybe I'm doing them a disservice, but my fear would be that 10 handicap secretaries could report back with 10 different takes on the system.


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    #102
    Poker Face
    Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭Poker Face


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I imagine that they intend golf clubs to do this themselves. So they have seminars for the club competition and handicap secretaries and they in turn brief their members.

    Though I suspect that (as said above) the interest may not be as strong as we'd like to think it is.
    Russman wrote: »
    You'd hope that to be the case. Maybe I'm doing them a disservice, but my fear would be that 10 handicap secretaries could report back with 10 different takes on the system.

    Info on this was sent to clubs at start of Feb and one part of the Educational Schedule is for Golf Ireland to have meetings for Club Members in Q2 of 2020.


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    #103
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 15,824 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Russman wrote: »
    I appreciate there will be a WHS website and Golf Ireland presumably will have info on their site, but (and apologies if its not PC to say this, I don't mean it disparagingly at all) for lots of average golfers, say, middle aged to elderly, they won't really be interested in going online to research the new WHS, its hard enough to get some of them to use an online timesheet, never mind see how slope and course ratings work.

    there already is

    https://www.whs.com/


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    #104
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    There's also a PowerPoint presentation on GolfNet that gives the basic information and details of how the rollout will progress. As not everyone has PowerPoint (don't think they're allowed here anyway), I've converted it to PDF and uploaded it here.

    Edit: DotGolf is a software provider based in New Zealand (I think) who provide software for clubs and associations. From what I understand, DotGolf will be providing the back end for Golf Ireland, but not replacing whatever software your club uses: HandicapMaster/HowDidIDo.


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    #105
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭blue note


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    For the transition to the new system, your handicap index will be based on your last 20 rounds before the cut off date. This can go back as much as three years to get the 20 rounds. For new members or members who haven't got the requisite 20 rounds, the handicap index will be worked out as follows:

    3 rounds - Lowest score differential -2
    4 rounds - Lowest score differential =1
    5 rounds - Lowest score differential
    6 rounds - Average of two lowest -1
    7 and 8 - Average of two lowest
    9 to 11 - Average of three lowest
    12 to 14 - Average of four lowest
    15 to 16 - Average of five lowest
    17 to 18 - Average of six lowest
    19 - Average of seven lowest
    2 and above - Average of eight lowest

    Score differential being calculated as shown earlier in the thread. Basically the net over course rating calculated with slope.

    I think I'll get a shot or two back from this. Plus I suspect corballis will be considered an easy course so that could be worth another shot when playing away. Even though from when I joined my handicap has gone down slightly.

    Happy days, more chance of getting a good score!


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    #106
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭slingerz


    Seve OB wrote: »
    there already is

    https://www.whs.com/

    i think people just want some form of calculator that they can enter their details into and get told what their handicap will be based on their current situation and then an inforgraphic on how their handicap will change


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    #107
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    slingerz wrote: »
    i think people just want some form of calculator that they can enter their details into and get told what their handicap will be based on their current situation and then an inforgraphic on how their handicap will change
    I'm not particularly blown away by that website. A lot of fluffy videos that really aren't that strong on detail. A calculator isn't difficult to put together, I created one in Excel. The problem is that it's not very useful without the proper course and slope ratings. By all accounts, we won't have those for all the courses in Ireland until the end of May at least.


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    #108
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    I have been reliably informed that slope and course ratings will be notified to clubs who haven't received theirs yet within the next three to four weeks. Interestingly the advice is not to put these on scorecards as I believe that they will be under constant review and may well change over time.


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    #109
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Interestingly the advice is not to put these on scorecards as I believe that they will be under constant review and may well change over time.

    Wouldnt that change your handicap?


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    #110
    DuckSlice
    Registered Users Posts: 2,884 ✭✭✭DuckSlice


    Surely they would only need to be reviewed if the course was changed?


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    #111
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    etxp wrote: »
    Surely they would only need to be reviewed if the course was changed?

    I'm guessing they are allowing for "getting it wrong"


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    #112
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭blue note


    I'm delighted to read that in terms of accuracy of the ratings. I remember asking the question on this forum if they'd be adjusted after they see the scores come in. And I was told that a club could request to be reassessed, but that they wouldn't be factoring in scoring on your course.

    But for me if it is to be an accurate system, you have to adjust if a course is not yielding scores within tolerance. The stark example I gave was calculating my handicap with the calculator and plugging it into the two courses I've been a member of. I'd find the two courses of similar difficulty, I suspect most would find corballis a bit easier. But I was getting a difference of 8 for my handicap from the whites on each.

    I suspect on some courses, such as corballis, if a player plays most of their golf there they'll have too high a handicap. And the average scores of members from these courses playing in opens on other courses will be noticeably higher. The reverse would also be true on courses ranked too hard.

    A part of me is also not delighted with it though. Last time I played Tramore I had 36 points while not playing particularly well. If I'd had an extra 8 shots I'd have cleaned up!


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    #113
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Wouldnt that change your handicap?
    Depends how much the rating changed by. But you'd probably be talking marginal changes. Like from 139 to 140 or 141 for example. But handicap changes are going to be the rule from course to course anyway, so this would be just another variable. I imagine it will settle down over time and we won't see any more changes. But rating is a subjective thing, so I think it's best to be flexible - at least for the first year or two.


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    #114
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭blue note


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    I have been reliably informed that slope and course ratings will be notified to clubs who haven't received theirs yet within the next three to four weeks. Interestingly the advice is not to put these on scorecards as I believe that they will be under constant review and may well change over time.

    You sound like a man in the know. I asked this on another thread and was told that the slopes can only change from another physical review. This would use the same criteria as the original. In other words, the only change would be as a result of the first review (or the second) essentially being wrong. My understanding is that the criteria is quite prescriptive and not open to interpretation. So three different reviewers reviewing the same course should come up with the same ratings. And to be honest if they don't, the slopes might as well be based on local surveys of what the most difficult courses are.

    But my question was was whether competition scores would be taken into consideration and lead to course ratings being altered.

    I'll use corballis as an example since it looks to me like it's rating doesn't reflect it's difficulty. Say a visitor to a course should average 32 points, but after a year we see that visitors to corballis are averaging 30 points. That would suggest that the playing handicap people get for corballis is 2 shots too low. On the flip side, what if corballis members are averaging 33 points when visiting courses? That would mean they're getting a shot too many when playing away.

    Any time you set criteria for something like this, it's not going to be perfect for the 10s of thousands of courses it's for. It might yield an accurate result for most courses but not all. Adjusting based on play seems the most logical way of tuning the ratings to me. And is this the constant review you're talking about?


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    #115
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,033 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Depends how much the rating changed by. But you'd probably be talking marginal changes. Like from 139 to 140 or 141 for example. But handicap changes are going to be the rule from course to course anyway, so this would be just another variable. I imagine it will settle down over time and we won't see any more changes. But rating is a subjective thing, so I think it's best to be flexible - at least for the first year or two.

    Handicap changes due to results are normal, but this is the equivalent of changing the SSS and then adjusting everyones handicap after the fact...it's not normal for your handicap to change without hitting a shot, other than a review, nevermind everyone's changing!

    I guess it's equivalent to a review, but it potentially impacts anyone that has s counting score on that course, members and visitors alike.


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    #116
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Handicap changes due to results are normal, but this is the equivalent of changing the SSS and then adjusting everyones handicap after the fact...it's not normal for your handicap to change without hitting a shot, other than a review, nevermind everyone's changing!

    I guess it's equivalent to a review, but it potentially impacts anyone that has s counting score on that course, members and visitors alike.
    I wouldn't think it would be retroactive. Like SSS changes, would only take effect after the change.


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    #117
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    blue note wrote: »
    You sound like a man in the know. I asked this on another thread and was told that the slopes can only change from another physical review. This would use the same criteria as the original. In other words, the only change would be as a result of the first review (or the second) essentially being wrong. My understanding is that the criteria is quite prescriptive and not open to interpretation. So three different reviewers reviewing the same course should come up with the same ratings. And to be honest if they don't, the slopes might as well be based on local surveys of what the most difficult courses are.

    But my question was was whether competition scores would be taken into consideration and lead to course ratings being altered.

    I'll use corballis as an example since it looks to me like it's rating doesn't reflect it's difficulty. Say a visitor to a course should average 32 points, but after a year we see that visitors to corballis are averaging 30 points. That would suggest that the playing handicap people get for corballis is 2 shots too low. On the flip side, what if corballis members are averaging 33 points when visiting courses? That would mean they're getting a shot too many when playing away.

    Any time you set criteria for something like this, it's not going to be perfect for the 10s of thousands of courses it's for. It might yield an accurate result for most courses but not all. Adjusting based on play seems the most logical way of tuning the ratings to me. And is this the constant review you're talking about?
    A new Rules of Handicapping handbook was sent out to clubs a week or so ago. In the appendix on Course and Slope Ratings it says this:
    Course ratings must be reviewed periodically and revised and reissued as necessary. New golf courses can change frequently during the first years after construction and must be rte-rated within five years of the initial rating date. Thereafter, golf courses must be re-rated at least once every ten years.

    Although not specifically relating to ratings, it also says that the front of a teeing area should not be set more than 10m in front or behind permanent tee markers on tee boxes. And that overall, the length of a golf course should not be more than 100m from its measured length.

    I'd say a lot of golf courses exceed this on a very regular basis.


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    #118
    Golfgraffix
    Registered Users Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Golfgraffix


    prawnsambo wrote: »

    And that overall, the length of a golf course should not be more than 100m from its measured length. .

    This has always been the case, we had work done on our 18th a few years back and as a result we had to reduce the sss by one during the work.


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    #119
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Golfgraffix wrote: »
    This has always been the case, we had work done on our 18th a few years back and as a result we had to reduce the sss by one during the work.
    I'm reading this as not having tee markers placed in such a way that makes the course more than or less than 100m of its measured length for those tees. So if you place all tee markers 10m back from the permanent ones, you've shortened it by 180m. Not sure I've seen that mentioned before. I can absolutely see why changing the length of the course permanently (by for example moving a tee box or green) you may have to change the SSS, but the movable markers?


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    #120
    blue note
    Registered Users Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭blue note


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    A new Rules of Handicapping handbook was sent out to clubs a week or so ago. In the appendix on Course and Slope Ratings it says this:



    Although not specifically relating to ratings, it also says that the front of a teeing area should not be set more than 10m in front or behind permanent tee markers on tee boxes. And that overall, the length of a golf course should not be more than 100m from its measured length.

    I'd say a lot of golf courses exceed this on a very regular basis.

    I suspect based on that they're not going to keep going out to the course to re rate them, so they must be looking at scores. This seems sensible to me. Particularly because the rating might be accurate based on the criteria set, so if they were rerated nothing might change. Unless they sent someone out and told them the rating is too high, see where you can shave a few points off it.


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    #121
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,009 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    blue note wrote: »
    I suspect based on that they're not going to keep going out to the course to re rate them, so they must be looking at scores. This seems sensible to me. Particularly because the rating might be accurate based on the criteria set, so if they were rerated nothing might change. Unless they sent someone out and told them the rating is too high, see where you can shave a few points off it.
    It seems like the obvious conclusion alright. And not very hard to do. Consistently low scores would probably trigger a review and they'd still have the initial rating notes that they could refer to. Probably would be more surprising if they didn't intend to monitor and review them tbh.


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