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Hybrid Drive of ICR 22000 Fleet

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    #32
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Cork-Dublin electrification with 225km/hr running would be terrific. Hybrid trains could also use most of the route to serve Kerry and Limerick, journey times would be slashed. No other mode of transport would be competitive on journey time and we can stop the highly inefficient flights from Dublin to Kerry. Express Cork-Dublin in 70-80 mins, Limerick-Dublin in an hour. Kerry Dublin in a little over 2 hours. Also consider the time savings for Waterford and Galway. A Tullamore-Dublin commute could be cut down to half an hour for example. In short Electrifying Dublin-Cork would benefit almost every other intercity route if combined with hybrid trains.


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    #33
    Praetorian
    Registered Users Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭Praetorian


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Cork-Dublin electrification with 225km/hr running would be terrific. Hybrid trains could also use most of the route to serve Kerry and Limerick, journey times would be slashed. No other mode of transport would be competitive on journey time and we can stop the highly inefficient flights from Dublin to Kerry. Express Cork-Dublin in 70-80 mins, Limerick-Dublin in an hour. Kerry Dublin in a little over 2 hours. Also consider the time savings for Waterford and Galway. A Tullamore-Dublin commute could be cut down to half an hour for example. In short Electrifying Dublin-Cork would benefit almost every other intercity route if combined with hybrid trains.

    Nice dreams!


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    #34
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    It ageee the focus right now needs to be on commuter services to reduce traffic, make a lot of people’s lives a lot more pleasant and have a significant impact on CO2 output.

    All of the Dublin commuter lines should be DART and the frequencies should be improved. Metrolink should be completed urgently and they should also be looking at serious capacity into West Dublin and areas of the city that aren’t served by decent mass transit.

    Cork also needs at least one major mass transit link. There are >100,000 vehicles a day on the N40 south ring. That’s absolutely insane for a city the size of Cork and indicates that there’s a massive problem with public transport.


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    #35
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,430 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    It ageee the focus right now needs to be on commuter services to reduce traffic, make a lot of people’s lives a lot more pleasant and have a significant impact on CO2 output.

    All of the Dublin commuter lines should be DART and the frequencies should be improved. Metrolink should be completed urgently and they should also be looking at serious capacity into West Dublin and areas of the city that aren’t served by decent mass transit.

    Cork also needs at least one major mass transit link. There are >100,000 vehicles a day on the N40 south ring. That’s absolutely insane for a city the size of Cork and indicates that there’s a massive problem with public transport.

    The n40 is the main distributor road for cork.. City and county.. A lot more than 100,000.
    It links everything from ballincolig round to glanmire, and also serves the north ring, and airport .
    But doesn't really connect any public transport services... I can't get off the Midleton train at dunkettle to go to mahon.. Any services that cross the n40 can't link up... To go from ballincolig to the airport by bus involves going into the city centre and back out to the airport..



    . A frequent n40 bus going from ballincolig to dunkettle and maybe on over to Blackpool with stops at curraheen, bishopstown, wilton, togher, kinsale Road, Douglas, Broomfield (for carrigaline) mahon and dunkettle, and into tivoli, it'd need dedicated stops and preferably park and rides, bike racks whatever to make each stop a decent transport interchange.
    . . And if major employers/ industrial estates were encouraged to have shuttle buses to and from their nearest stop rather than big carpark all the better,
    Sorry that went way off topic... Forgot Which thread I was on...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #36
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Praetorian wrote: »
    The Hybrid Drive's sound great (pun intended). I wonder how long the (battery) packs will last considering some of the trains must operate 12-16 hours a day?

    Well in EV cars if actively cooled, they can last decades.

    I suspect they might replace them after 10 years or so. But that shouldn't be a major issue, prices of batteries are dropping quickly and after 10 years you could likely replace them with batteries with twice the capacity in the same size and weight. Which would help to increase on fuel savings and offset costs.

    BTW for those who don't know, after use like this, the batteries aren't useless, they usually get reused in less demanding applications like fixed energy storage and then eventually get recycled. There is a lot of value in even old battery packs.
    EdgeCase wrote: »
    It ageee the focus right now needs to be on commuter services to reduce traffic, make a lot of people’s lives a lot more pleasant and have a significant impact on CO2 output.

    All of the Dublin commuter lines should be DART and the frequencies should be improved. Metrolink should be completed urgently and they should also be looking at serious capacity into West Dublin and areas of the city that aren’t served by decent mass transit.

    Cork also needs at least one major mass transit link. There are >100,000 vehicles a day on the N40 south ring. That’s absolutely insane for a city the size of Cork and indicates that there’s a massive problem with public transport.

    I agree completely. I know this is probably an unpopular opinion with some rail fans. But IMO intercity transport has already been well looked after by the government by pouring 10 billion into the intercity Motorway network and it has given us fantastic results. I know it isn't rail, but it is the way the vast majority of people and freight move between our cities.

    However when doing that, they mostly ignored the needs of our cities beyond Luas and a few buses. And now we are suffering the effects of that terrible underinvestment in our cities.

    We now need to focus on fixing that. Spend the next 10 years and next 10 billion on our cities commuter infrastructure. Metrolink, Dart Expansion, BusConnects, Luas for Cork, etc.

    Once that is all done, we can return the focus to major improvements to intercity rail, but for now, we have bigger problems to deal with IMO.


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    #37
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    The only big exception to that I would say at the moment is the Northwest. We need to ensure that those counties aren't just left to wither after Brexit. That also needs to be funded to a large degree from the brexit divorce bill as it's being caused by circumstances beyond our control.


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    #38
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    The only big exception to that I would say at the moment is the Northwest. We need to ensure that those counties aren't just left to wither after Brexit. That also needs to be funded to a large degree from the brexit divorce bill as it's being caused by circumstances beyond our control.

    The northwest is hardly affected by rail investment though. Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan and Meath(mostly) don't have any rail service.


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    #39
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    cgcsb wrote: »
    The northwest is hardly affected by rail investment though. Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan and Meath(mostly) don't have any rail service.

    Yeah. We did notice that. Last time the subject of Donegal and trains was mentioned here some years ago the thread descended into a few warriors from the WRC thread asserting that self driving electric cars would render any new railway redundant, so it MUST NORT be built ever.

    :rolleyes:


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    #40
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Lord Glentoran wrote: »
    Yeah. We did notice that. Last time the subject of Donegal and trains was mentioned here some years ago the thread descended into a few warriors from the WRC thread asserting that self driving electric cars would render any new railway redundant, so it MUST NORT be built ever.

    :rolleyes:

    A Dublin-Northwest intercity line would be nice, but it's far fetched. Given that the cities won't have sufficient transport infrastructure until the 2030s at the earliest, then there needs to be serious improvements made to make Dublin-Cork medium/high speed.

    Then when you take partition and Brexit into account it seems an impossible ask in the first half of this century. At present the 2 largest Cities in Ireland only have 8 trains a day between them, running at extremely poor speed (max 145kmh) and there isn't a service that can get you to either city for a 9am meeting.


    Until this things change, it seems unlikely.


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    #41
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    I wouldn't have thought that rail's an appropriate solution for the Northwest to be perfectly honest due to the low population densities.

    The region needs some investment in good quality N-roads and investment into the road network in general. I don't really buy the argument that environmentally friendly transportation absolutely has to be rail. If you put some proper investment into electric car charging infrastructure and things like hybrid coach type busses you can cover a low-density largely rural area like Donegal quite effectively.

    We have at most two, and probably only one route that meets the definition of intercity heavy rail i.e. Cork-Dublin and the rest are basically equivalent in terms of population densities to what you'd see in rural western France or Scotland. They're actually not too bad for what they are in terms of rolling stock and maintenance and so on. I'm a bit disappointed that the possibility of smaller more regular 22000s haven't been used to improve frequencies though on some of those routes.

    However, all that aside, I think we need to use rail where high-capacity transit is viable and appropriate and that is around the Dublin area and increasingly Cork is showing needs for it too.

    We also need to be at the very least planning it in for Limerick and Galway and to a lesser degree of urgency due to scale Waterford- i.e. reserving space for a future tram system and ensuring that one's possible at the cheapest possible rate in decades to come. For example, we could be doing this in a phased way i.e. create bus-based greenways that can ultimately be replaced by trams.

    We absolutely should be using the greenest technologies for busses to i.e. hybrids, electric or whatever becomes possible as time goes on. Running diesel busses isn't really a great solution either from a CO2 output point of view or local particulate pollution perspective in cities.

    The aim should be a technology/mode neutral project that aims to get maximum 'bang for buck' and benefit to end users and the environment. I think sometimes we get debates here that can be fixated on rail for the sake of rail.


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    #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bk wrote: »
    We have gone from well over 50% of our electricity being produced by coal, to almost 0% over the last 6 months *

    Renewables have gone to low single figures to over 30% now and regularly hit 50% overnight (important as most EV's are charged overnight).

    snip

    * There seems to be something really interesting going on the last few months, strictly speaking Moneypoint is still open, but it has been producing only low single digits and often 0% over the last few months, almost like unofficially is is already closed.
    Moneypoint has had an enforced shutdown due to engineering faults in the turbines.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/turbines-at-moneypoint-power-station-out-of-action-due-to-forced-outage-1.3718846


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    #43
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Moneypoint has had an enforced shutdown due to engineering faults in the turbines.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/turbines-at-moneypoint-power-station-out-of-action-due-to-forced-outage-1.3718846

    Thanks for that, very interesting.

    Though it does show clearly that we don't need it any more. We seem to have plenty of generating capacity with much cleaner energy sources of wind, gas and interconnector.

    Probably wise to keep it around until Brexit is sorted and we know the impact of that. But ideally kept running as little as possible and just a backup, which it and the peat stations can be removed completely once the interconnector to France is built.


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    #44
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    It could actually be converted to carbon neutral biomass burning. That's assuming we could get sufficient biomass to supply it.


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    #45
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    carbon neutral biomass burning.

    Doesn't exist.

    Biomass for electricity is pure environmental vandalism, way dirtier than natural gas. Biomass district heating is one to consider though. It won't replace the baseloading of moneypoint though. We need a small nuclear reactor to baseload and guarantee energy security, especially in an era of electricity hungry data centres, EVs and elect trains.

    The interconnector to France puts us at the mercy of French energy policy.


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    #46
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,841 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/17/bombardier-battery-powered-electric-train/?guccounter=1

    I read that article which I found interesting!


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    #47
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Doesn't exist.

    Biomass for electricity is pure environmental vandalism, way dirtier than natural gas. Biomass district heating is one to consider though. It won't replace the baseloading of moneypoint though. We need a small nuclear reactor to baseload and guarantee energy security, especially in an era of electricity hungry data centres, EVs and elect trains.

    The interconnector to France puts us at the mercy of French energy policy.

    Nuclear unfortunately is just not going to happen.

    And small Nuclear doesn't really exist at the moment, but might in future.

    France is pretty much a safe bet. They are 80% Nuclear and their most recent plans show that continuing for decades to come. They are under pressure to increase renewables, so swapping some of their Nuclear for our wind is very much in their favour.

    The only way we will ever get close to renewables is by sharing the load across Europe and taking advantage of each others strengths.

    It is a pity Scotland is in our way of doing an interconnector with Norway and their lovely hydro power.


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    #48
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    The biggest issue in France isn't energy policy. It's more that you could get downtime due to a political climate that leads to endless public service and industrial strikes.

    That hasn't been a temporary phenomenon either. It's long established and regular.


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    #49
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    https://www.engadget.com/2018/09/17/bombardier-battery-powered-electric-train/?guccounter=1

    I read that article which I found interesting!

    Interesting that they are using Silicon, it seems to be popping up increasingly to help make smaller electronics. Extra small chargers, etc.


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    #50
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,430 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Converting money point to biomass would probably mean, a brand new boiler, and different material handling equipment, to be installed in a station near the end of its life.. And it still couldn't produce the energy it does now, because of huge difference in energy density in wood versus coal... And most importantly where would all the biomass come from?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #51
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    The biggest issue in France isn't energy policy. It's more that you could get downtime due to a political climate that leads to endless public service and industrial strikes.

    That hasn't been a temporary phenomenon either. It's long established and regular.

    While they have an obvious history of strikes, etc. That has never effected their energy sector. It is considered too crucial to be allowed to be impacted. Same here, folks at the ESB have always been well looked after.


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    #52
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    bk wrote: »
    Nuclear unfortunately is just not going to happen.

    And small Nuclear doesn't really exist at the moment, but might in future.

    France is pretty much a safe bet. They are 80% Nuclear and their most recent plans show that continuing for decades to come. They are under pressure to increase renewables, so swapping some of their Nuclear for our wind is very much in their favour.

    The only way we will ever get close to renewables is by sharing the load across Europe and taking advantage of each others strengths.

    It is a pity Scotland is in our way of doing an interconnector with Norway and their lovely hydro power.

    RE: small nuclear, Moneypoint is designed for 915MW. There are many nuclear stations in the UK that have similar output. Dungness for example is about 500MW. A 1000MW station to replace moneypoint wouldn't be a massive oversupply especially given the expected growth in demand and of course our current high prices.

    Given French politics, it's unlikely they'll switch off their nuclear to buy our renewables.


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    #53
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Converting money point to biomass would probably mean, a brand new boiler, and different material handling equipment, to be installed in a station near the end of its life.. And it still couldn't produce the energy it does now, because of huge difference in energy density in wood versus coal... And most importantly where would all the biomass come from?

    We'd have to import the high bulk, low energy fuel by diesel container ship essentially, from Cambodia or the USA.


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    #54
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    cgcsb wrote: »
    RE: small nuclear, Moneypoint is designed for 915MW. There are many nuclear stations in the UK that have similar output. Dungness for example is about 500MW. A 1000MW station to replace moneypoint wouldn't be a massive oversupply especially given the expected growth in demand and of course our current high prices.

    Dungness is an old, 60's design. Modern reactors are coming well over 1,000 MW per reactor. The latest reactor in Finland is 1,600MW

    And that is just per reactor, you normally want two or three reactors per power station, so that one can be shutdown, for maintenance, refuelling, etc.

    I don't think there are any 500MW or 250MW reactors been built anymore, they aren't efficient or economically worth it compared to the massive cost of the overall plant. It is why a lot of older, smaller reactors are being shutdown and replaced by much bigger reactors.

    Modern PWR/BWR reactors have all gotten far to big for a country as small as Ireland. Maybe one of the new technologies like Pebble bed will suit us in future for smaller plants, but they aren't there yet.
    cgcsb wrote: »
    Given French politics, it's unlikely they'll switch off their nuclear to buy our renewables.

    They are actually under a lot of political pressure at the moment to reduce Nuclear and be seen to be green. I agree, all very silly. But by buying Irish wind, they can be seen increasing their usage of wind, while not needing to close their plants. It is a slight of hand, but one that can suit us well.


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    #55
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,782 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    bk wrote: »

    They are actually under a lot of political pressure at the moment to reduce Nuclear and be seen to be green. I agree, all very silly. But by buying Irish wind, they can be seen increasing their usage of wind, while not needing to close their plants. It is a slight of hand, but one that can suit us well.

    there's loads of wind turbines in France as well. Given the size of the country, an abundance of high ground and coastline I don't see why they would need to import wind power.


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    #56
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,491 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    loyatemu wrote: »
    there's loads of wind turbines in France as well. Given the size of the country, an abundance of high ground and coastline I don't see why they would need to import wind power.

    Basically they really, really don't want to shutdown their Nuclear plants. They know it is too important to their national security and independence.

    However if they build increasing amounts of wind power, they know they will come under increasing political pressure to shut them down. So instead they'd prefer to keep them running, but export the power generated, while using wind (yes both their own and imported) to make it look like they are reducing their use of Nuclear.

    I know it is a slight of hand and it is a really great position for them to be in. But they have to manage the public perception of Nuclear power carefully. Just look at the current yellow vest protests or the Green party in Germany stupidly getting Nuclear plants shutdown, with a resulting big increase in coal :rolleyes:

    It is all almost like an accounting trick. UK and France can say, hey we are using less Nuclear, look at all this wind. The countries importing Nuclear like us can safely say they aren't using Nuclear, instead the imports are simply shown as power supplied by an "inteconnector". It helps to keep Nuclear going, while keeping it out of the public eye.


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    #57
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,276 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Not great for Ireland's energy security though. We're relying on imported and domestic gas that's going to run out and then we'll be relying on French policy makers to make good decisions for us regarding their nuclear assets. We should be taking steps to secure our future energy security. Only now is there serious talk of district heating in parts of Dublin to replace gas, there needs to be more proactive policies here


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    #58
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    The old AGR design in the UK is not at all indicative of what's available now. It's a very old and also very odd design that was only ever used in the UK and never found any export markets.

    They're quite odd systems, were vastly more expensive than budgeted, took decades to deliver in some cases and never actually delivered their design output.

    Modern designs are way, way bigger output as you have to get the economies of scale and also you need access to a lot of infrastructure around them to process fuel, provide complex support and all of that.

    Then you've got to factor in the whole life cost which is enormous, particularly when you factor in decommissioning costs which can run into billions.

    Also the likes of the EPR is proving to be similarly insanely over budget and late. Look at what's going on at the first two sites.

    That's always the way with nuclear. They're not built very often, they're technically complex and often using obscure systems that have to be worked out as they go.
    That's why they tend to end up hugely over budget and late.

    Total life cost of nuclear always seems to make it less attractive.


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