Hybrid Drive of ICR 22000 Fleet

bk

The government has just announced 15 million funding for hybrid drives for the ICR fleet:

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/climate-action/topics/climate-action-fund/call-for-applications/first-call-2018/project-assessments/Pages/default.aspx

Anyone have any idea what that is about?

Battery hybrid?

Also seemingly trails of alternative fuel buses to start in Cork and Dublin net week!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/electric-car-charging-network-one-of-seven-projects-to-share-77m-climate-action-fund-888456.html

For those interested, a lot of other and interesting environmental projects too. Finally an extensive EV car charging network. Street lighting to be converted to LED, etc.

EDIT: A bit more:

Irish Rail: Hybrid Drive for Inter City Railcar fleet Up to €15 million is being invested to design new hybrid power-packs for intercity railcars to reduce diesel use and greenhouse gas emissions. Following the proof of concept in one three car train, the hybrid power-packs will be implemented across the wider fleet.

And the buses sound like they will be natural gas models:

a grant scheme to support circa 74 compressed natural gas vehicles.

bk

Ah, a lot more info about it here:

https://www.mtu-report.com/Rail/Railcars/Hybrid-drives-for-the-Emerald-Isle

Sounds really good. Basically hybrid drive like you get in a Prius. Breaking recharges the battery.

They are talking about 33% fuel reductions. And it can even run fully in battery only mode in urban areas and around stations, leading to 75% reduction in noise and a big reduction in NOX and particulates emissions around stations. Nice.

goingnowhere

Old news was announced in September

Lots of PR crap from Kildare street, Irish Rail has no involvement in the design or research thats all MTU work, they simply unbolt the current engine raft and put the new one in.

bk

goingnowhere wrote: »

Old new was announced in September

Lots of PR crap from Kildare street, Irish Rail has no involvement in the design or research thats all MTU work, they simply unbolt the current engine raft and put the new one in.

Ah, I hadn't come across it. Some of the stuff announced is definitely new. The EV charging network is big news in that community and very welcome as is lighting etc.

Not surprised it is all the manufacturer, that is the way of the world now. Manufacturers looking after and upgrading systems is the norm now, Boeing, Airbus, Rolls Royce engines, Alstom Luas, Wrights DB, etc.

Sounds like the ICR's were built in a modular manner for relatively easy upgrade. That is good.

Jamie2k9

bk wrote: »

Sounds like the ICR's were built in a modular manner for relatively easy upgrade. That is good.

Luck rather than IE competence!

cgcsb

Sounds very promising. Still loads of work needed to electrify greater Dublin, which is 70 years beyond due.

The proposed district heating system for Dublin Docklands/Ringsend and Tallaght are very interesting, would be great to see this happen. I'd also suggest a similar scheme should be considered for the Guiness factory and the west of the City especially as our natural gas resources become scarce.


I still think there isn't nearly enough effort being put into electricity production. We're hardly using any of our offshore wind, tidal and wave resources at presents. Lough Foyle seems an ideal candidate for a tidal power but government isn't interested.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

I still think there isn't nearly enough effort being put into electricity production. We're hardly using any of our offshore wind, tidal and wave resources at presents. Lough Foyle seems an ideal candidate for a tidal power but government isn't interested.

While of course there is still loads to do, in fairness, massive strides have already been made in this area and continue.

In the last 20 years, the amount of CO2 per Megawatt produced has halved!

We have gone from well over 50% of our electricity being produced by coal, to almost 0% over the last 6 months *

Renewables have gone to low single figures to over 30% now and regularly hit 50% overnight (important as most EV's are charged overnight).

The announcement of the closure of the Peat power plants is great, long overdue news and hopefully Moneypoint will be next.

* There seems to be something really interesting going on the last few months, strictly speaking Moneypoint is still open, but it has been producing only low single digits and often 0% over the last few months, almost like unofficially is is already closed.

You are of course lots more to do. An interconnector to French Nuclear should allow for a lot more wind to be brought online.

bk

Interestingly right now, renewables (mostly wind) are at 50.67%, not surprising given how windy it is at the moment.

But even over the past month they have been 40%, pretty nice Coal just 3.6%

cgcsb

I'd like to see Moneypoint converted to nuclear in the near future, and I think that's what the ESB want also. It'd give us security of supply instead of depending on French nuclear and it'd help address the impending boom in data centres, EVs and electric trains. Not to mention a future move to medium/high speed intercity. But considering the uproar over the last planned nuclear station in Wexford, I think it'd be difficult politically, the public aren't educated enough.

bk

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd like to see Moneypoint converted to nuclear in the near future, and I think that's what the ESB want also. It'd give us security of supply instead of depending on French nuclear and it'd help address the impending boom in data centres, EVs and electric trains. Not to mention a future move to medium/high speed intercity. But considering the uproar over the last planned nuclear station in Wexford, I think it'd be difficult politically, the public aren't educated enough.

I'd love that too, but realistically Ireland is too small for one conventional Nuclear plant. As in one plant would almost power the whole country, but then you'd have a single point of failure.

Perhaps in future some of the alternative designs for small reactors (pebble bed, etc.) will work out and that would be more suitable for us.

In the meantime the plan is for a 700MW interconnector to that lovely French Nuclear power. That is a more reasonable approach to using Nuclear power for the moment.

I think the plan for Moneypoint now is too convert it to biomass or maybe natural gas. Though with the increase in wind, it is looking like we might just not need it anymore. The ESB have already completely written it off their books financially.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

Lough Foyle seems an ideal candidate for a tidal power but government isn't interested.

The brits claim they own it to the Donegal shore

ax586

bk wrote: »

The government has just announced 15 million funding for hybrid drives for the ICR fleet:

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/climate-action/topics/climate-action-fund/call-for-applications/first-call-2018/project-assessments/Pages/default.aspx

Anyone have any idea what that is about?

Battery hybrid?

Also seemingly trails of alternative fuel buses to start in Cork and Dublin net week!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/electric-car-charging-network-one-of-seven-projects-to-share-77m-climate-action-fund-888456.html

For those interested, a lot of other and interesting environmental projects too. Finally an extensive EV car charging network. Street lighting to be converted to LED, etc.

EDIT: A bit more:



And the buses sound like they will be natural gas models:

Go-Ahead won a tender to trail buses six weeks in Dublin and six weeks in cork..there was a notice in the garage looking for drivers to do the trails it will be all done during the night..I’ll get more info on Saturday

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

I'd love that too, but realistically Ireland is too small for one conventional Nuclear plant. As in one plant would almost power the whole country, but then you'd have a single point of failure.

Perhaps in future some of the alternative designs for small reactors (pebble bed, etc.) will work out and that would be more suitable for us.

In the meantime the plan is for a 700MW interconnector to that lovely French Nuclear power. That is a more reasonable approach to using Nuclear power for the moment.

I think the plan for Moneypoint now is too convert it to biomass or maybe natural gas. Though with the increase in wind, it is looking like we might just not need it anymore. The ESB have already completely written it off their books financially.

There are a number of designs for small nuclear reactors, even as small as 300MW. Moneypoint can currently produce up to a GW, so building in that capacity wouldn't be a total oversupply, and we can always export.
We need to baseload with something and wind+grid storage just can't provide that baseload yet.

Electricity from biomass burning is an environmental disaster if you ask me. You'd be clearing forests in other countries, moving the wood to Ireland under diesel power and then burning it in massive amounts.

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

The brits claim they own it to the Donegal shore

fe(k them, what are they gonna do. Besides Eirgrid-ESB are basically running the show in NI anyway.

loyatemu

Carawaystick wrote: »

The brits claim they own it to the Donegal shore

maybe a joint project? after all we're all Europeans

Gael23

Don’t suppose there’s a chance of a fare reduction with the fuel saving?

EdgeCase

Seems like a relatively slow project. We should be working very much faster to get the CO2 emissions down.

They need to do something about the Diesel commuter DMUs too and probably buy some more efficient locomotives for the Cork and Belfast push-pull sets.

L1011

They are dithering about re-engineing the 201s at the moment

EdgeCase

They'd arguably be better off just buying new ones with better efficiency, new mechanical components and better aerodynamics and aesthetics while they're at it to future proof for 200km/h.

They're going to be 30+ years old by the time this dithering is over.

I'd say any EU funding for the Enterprise is in massive doubt now too with a possible hard Brexit and NI leaving. There won't be any more TEN-T projects from that point on.

goingnowhere

The MTU tech was only announced in Sept, 30% saving in fuel is huge, but its too good so there has to be an evaluation period to prove the tech works, is reliable and delivers.

The new lower emissions engine is pretty much just a cleaner version of the current, there is a new gearbox as well as the hybrid bits, a lot of risk and the railway environment is notorious for breaking parts that work fine elsewhere

The only route even remotely suitable for 200kph is Dublin Cork which already has a fleet of 200kph capable coaches, most of the others are still 120kph

EdgeCase

The coaches are designed to be 200km/h capable, but to do that they need their extra brakes fitted and 200km/h capable locomotives which are something IE do not own.

Having intercity trains running at the same speed as motorway traffic at best, and often slower, is an absolute joke in this day and age. It's no wonder they're being beaten by busses and cars on most routes.

Jamie2k9

MK IV will never do 200km in Ireland. Cost way to much to bring them up to spec that a new fleet will be cheaper.

EdgeCase

I'm not sure why that would be the case as they're already built with that change in mind. It's just a matter of adding an extra disc brake on the axels, which is part of their design. It's not a retrofit or major modification. The expensive bit would be sourcing locomotives to replace the 201s and the very very expensive bit would be getting the signalling up to spec.

Jamie2k9

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'm not sure why that would be the case as they're already built with that change in mind. It's just a matter of adding an extra disc brake on the axels, which is part of their design. It's not a retrofit or major modification. The expensive bit would be sourcing locomotives to replace the 201s and the very very expensive bit would be getting the signalling up to spec.

Still don't see it. Just look at all the modification IE have to do to keep them at 160 km/h and the major costs with them. Even purchasing a loco capable of 200km/h plus with proven reliability won't be easy. Any operator with those speeds are almost exclusively EMU apart from class 800 in UK which just proves how bad they are on diesel. Mark IV were designed for two power cars and going back to CAF 20 years later isn't going to be straightforward nor do I think will happen.

If I was to make a prediction the Mark IVs will eventually move over to Belfast and operate alongside/replace DD and provide an hourly service or an early retirement and IE will push for electrified Cork/Dublin and purchase EMUs and operate at 225km/h for the route.

EdgeCase

Given where Brexit's going, it's actually questionable as to whether there'll be any need for such a service. You could be looking at significantly reduced trade and you will almost certainly be looking at cross border shopping becoming very unattractive if you're going to be stopped by Irish Revenue and British HMRC at the stations at either end.

If I were in IE or Translink management, I wouldn't spend a cent on that service until the current political turmoil is resolved. We could be going back to a scenario like pre 1993, and I think if that is the case, you're probably looking at the current Enterprise fleet being as good as it gets.

The MK4 fleet look to me to have been a bad mistake as a purchase in an era when they were fixated on loco-hauling and basically just did a direct replacement of the old BREL MK3 fleet that they scrapped. At least the 22000s use modern technology.

The BREL MK3, CAF MK3 and De Dietrich push-pulls are all basically form a bygone era.

You could also just top and tail the MK4s with electric locos and you'd easily have 200km/h service and there are reliable 200km/h diesels out there in use largely in high-speed freight on the continent and in the UK.

From a CO2 point of view, the priority at the moment should be electrification of the commuter rail network around Dublin, and possibly Cork and moving to electric-operations on trains that actually run frequently and with start-stop patterns.

It was incredible that we built modern commuter services with diesel trains. I haven't seen that anywhere else in Europe. It's a real cheap and nasty solution that looks like they didn't have the budget or vision to do the job properly. It's more like something you would see in the US.

If you could increase frequency and reliability and de-carbonise the commuter routes it would make a significant impact quite cheaply and quickly.

Not only are they CO2-heavy but the diesel commuter trains are generally rather rough experiences too and sound awful on board. They don't really make for a pleasant passenger experience as it sounds like you're on a truck half the time. The 22000s do not have that issue.

I don't think we can really justify electrification of anything other than maybe Cork-Dublin for intercity and that's probably pushing it.

cgcsb

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

IE will push for electrified Cork/Dublin and purchase EMUs and operate at 225km/h for the route.

Wouldn't that be wonderful. The morning express would only be about 90mins. They have this in Sweden operating across much longer distances and through way less populated areas.

cgcsb

EdgeCase wrote: »

Given where Brexit's going, it's actually questionable as to whether there'll be any need for such a service. You could be looking at significantly reduced trade and you will almost certainly be looking at cross border shopping becoming very unattractive if you're going to be stopped by Irish Revenue and British HMRC at the stations at either end.

If I were in IE or Translink management, I wouldn't spend a cent on that service until the current political turmoil is resolved. We could be going back to a scenario like pre 1993, and I think if that is the case, you're probably looking at the current Enterprise fleet being as good as it gets.

The MK4 fleet look to me to have been a bad mistake as a purchase in an era when they were fixated on loco-hauling and basically just did a direct replacement of the old BREL MK3 fleet that they scrapped. At least the 22000s use modern technology.

The BREL MK3, CAF MK3 and De Dietrich push-pulls are all basically form a bygone era.

You could also just top and tail the MK4s with electric locos and you'd easily have 200km/h service and there are reliable 200km/h diesels out there in use largely in high-speed freight on the continent and in the UK.

From a CO2 point of view, the priority at the moment should be electrification of the commuter rail network around Dublin, and possibly Cork and moving to electric-operations on trains that actually run frequently and with start-stop patterns.

It was incredible that we built modern commuter services with diesel trains. I haven't seen that anywhere else in Europe. It's a real cheap and nasty solution that looks like they didn't have the budget or vision to do the job properly. It's more like something you would see in the US.

If you could increase frequency and reliability and de-carbonise the commuter routes it would make a significant impact quite cheaply and quickly.

Not only are they CO2-heavy but the diesel commuter trains are generally rather rough experiences too and sound awful on board. They don't really make for a pleasant passenger experience as it sounds like you're on a truck half the time. The 22000s do not have that issue.

I don't think we can really justify electrification of anything other than maybe Cork-Dublin for intercity and that's probably pushing it.

I'd be delighted with Greater Dublin, Greater Cork and Dublin-Cork electrified. Afterwards it'd be perfectly sensible to extend electrification to Dundalk. Forget about Belfast for the forseeable and run frequent trains to Dundalk.

Markcheese

What's the difference between a hybrid and diesel electric? Is it "just" the battery size and utilisation?

XPS_Zero

EdgeCase wrote: »

They'd arguably be better off just buying new ones with better efficiency, new mechanical components and better aerodynamics and aesthetics while they're at it to future proof for 200km/h.

They're going to be 30+ years old by the time this dithering is over.

I'd say any EU funding for the Enterprise is in massive doubt now too with a possible hard Brexit and NI leaving. There won't be any more TEN-T projects from that point on.

The EU has said that there will be financial aid to Ireland to help us cope with Brexit since we are disproportionately affected (not to mention owed all this solidarity after the ECB blackmailed us into bailing out senior bondholders during the crash), and they already accept that the peace process is critical to security on the island, cultural and social projects are key to establishing understanding between peoples which is why the Enterprise was funded to begin with, the funding may continue.

bk

Markcheese wrote: »

What's the difference between a hybrid and diesel electric? Is it "just" the battery size and utilisation?

A hybrid has batteries, diesel electric doesn't.

Basically with a Diesel Electric, the Diesel Engine drives an electric motor which is what drives the wheels.

A hybrid, adds a battery into this setup, so that regenerative braking can charge up the battery or the battery can be charged by the Diesel Engine and then the power from the battery can be used to drive the electric motor/wheels.

It has the following advantages:

- Gain power from braking, which can then be used for acceleration
- Diesel Engine can run at it's most efficient level, charging the battery with excess power
- Can switch off the Diesel Engine when stopped at stations, etc.

With a big enough battery, you could even run the Diesel Engine to charge the battery while in rural areas before it gets into more urban areas and then shutoff the Diesel Engine as it operates through the urban areas where NOX, etc. are a greater concern.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The EU has said that there will be financial aid to Ireland to help us cope with Brexit since we are disproportionately affected (not to mention owed all this solidarity after the ECB blackmailed us into bailing out senior bondholders during the crash), and they already accept that the peace process is critical to security on the island, cultural and social projects are key to establishing understanding between peoples which is why the Enterprise was funded to begin with, the funding may continue.

It could happen, but I'd have to agree with EdgeCase. Until the political situation with Brexit is resolved and clarified, it would be crazy to spend any money on the Belfast service.

Instead we have plenty to do and focus on with DART Expansion, Metrolink, etc. which are far more important then the intercity services IMO.

Improving intercity services is of course a nice to have and this particular hybrid project seems to be a really nice, affordable upgrade. But DART Expansion is where the greatest benefit is in both environmental impacts and benefit to rail users.

Praetorian

The Hybrid Drive's sound great (pun intended). I wonder how long the (battery) packs will last considering some of the trains must operate 12-16 hours a day?

I'd love to see the electrification build start ASAP and be extended as much as possible. Replacing the 201's engines as well would be nice. A more fuel efficient yet more powerful modern engine with better acceleration would help with the Cork / Belfast journey times.

Irish rail should not be allowed touch the 071's though. They are fine the way they are