Hate crime nonsense

TomTomTim · 16-04-2021 12:42pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Gas the way that a lot of people that would have been in favour of removing our previous blasphemy laws are delighted about these new blasphemy laws.

The same people who wanted religion out of school, who now want to push gender ideology and "liberalized" sexual education in school. They never hated indoctrination, they simply hated that it was the "wrong" kind of indoctrination.

Smee_Again · 16-04-2021 12:42pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

Gas the way that a lot of people that would have been in favour of removing our previous blasphemy laws are delighted about these new blasphemy laws.

Whats gas is you getting upset because you think you can no longer do something that you don't do even though there's been no change in the law affecting the thing that you don't do.

Hector Savage · 16-04-2021 12:45pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Whats gas is you getting upset because you think you can no longer do something that you don't do even though there's been no change in the law affecting the thing that you don't do.

I also don't draw stick figures of Mohammed, but I find it absolutely terrifying that one could be thrown in jail for doing this as some people will claim that is extremely offensive and distressing to them, and they will class it as "hate".

Again, you may think you are OK as it doesn't affect you, but one day they will come for you, you'll have the wrong opinion on something.

JimmyVik · 16-04-2021 12:46pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

Whats gas is you getting upset because you think you can no longer do something that you don't do even though there's been no change in the law affecting the thing that you don't do.

Please dont mention gas in the context of hate crime.
Some may find it offensive.

Mad_maxx · 16-04-2021 12:47pm

if a bunch of travellers show up at my widowed mothers house pressuring her to allow them to clean her gutters , if she utters the following

" get of my property you tinker scumbags "

is she guilty of " hate crime " under the proposed new legislation ?

Smee_Again · 16-04-2021 12:48pm

Hector Savage wrote: »

I also don't draw stick figures of Mohammed, but I find it absolutely terrifying that one could be thrown in jail for doing this as some people will claim that is extremely offensive and distressing to them, and they will class it as "hate".

Again, you may think you are OK as it doesn't affect you, but one day they will come for you, you'll have the wrong opinion on something.

OK, let me try one more time because you seem determined to miss the point.

Is drawing an image of Mohammed already a crime?

AFAIK it isn't, so it can't be a hate crime.

KyussB · 16-04-2021 1:01pm

These are all existing crimes that people are punished for anyway, this law literally does nothing useful and is dangerously vague.

It's blindingly obvious that the purpose of this law is to lay a precedent that will be expanded later. No new crimes today, but that's the very next thing that will be legislated for, with "we already have hate crimes" as the justification.

Remember that laws like the latter have been used to criminalize e.g. boycott's on Israeli settlement goods, in other countries.

TomTomTim · 16-04-2021 1:02pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

OK, let me try one more time because you seem determined to miss the point.

Is drawing an image of Mohammed already a crime?

AFAIK it isn't, so it can't be a hate crime.

No, but calling him a pedophile is.

E.S v. Austria was a case held before the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) case where the court upheld a domestic court's fine on an Austrian woman who had called Mohammed a pedophile. [1]

The applicant, E.S., is an Austrian national who was born in 1971 and lives in Vienna.

In October and November 2009, Mrs S. held two seminars entitled “Basic Information on Islam”, in which she discussed the marriage between the Islamic prophet Muhammad and a six-year old girl, Aisha, which was consummated when she was nine. Inter alia, the applicant stated that Muhammad “liked to do it with children” and “… A 56-year-old and a six-year-old? … What do we call it, if it is not paedophilia?”.

On 15 February 2011, the Vienna Regional Criminal Court found that these statements implied that Muhammad had had paedophilic tendencies, and convicted Mrs S. for disparaging religious doctrines. She was ordered to pay a fine of 480 euros and the costs of the proceedings. Mrs S. appealed but the Vienna Court of Appeal upheld the decision in December 2011, confirming in essence the lower court’s findings.

Smee_Again · 16-04-2021 1:04pm

TomTomTim wrote: »

No, but calling him a pedophile is.

So what?

Vic_08 · 16-04-2021 1:15pm

Smee_Again wrote: »

So what?

So what?

You think a law that makes it a criminal offence to say something that is true is no big deal?

cheezums · 16-04-2021 1:22pm

Seems like most people here are annoyed they cant be racist towards travellers anymore.

Your Face · 16-04-2021 1:24pm

cheezums wrote: »

Seems like most people here are annoyed they cant be racist towards travellers anymore.

Oh they still can.
All this does is push the overt discrimination underground and give it a more insidious nature.

Smee_Again · 16-04-2021 1:26pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

So what?

You think a law that makes it a criminal offence to say something that is true is no big deal?

What law does that?

eleventh · 16-04-2021 1:28pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

...
I really cannot understand what's going on. It's like a sickness.

It's all part of the takeover of Ireland. (It's not overt so most won't see it until it's already done).
The few who do see it or start to wake up will be labelled 'hateful' by the likes of those making this legislation and their lackeys in RTE, Irish times etc.

osarusan · 16-04-2021 1:30pm

eleventh wrote: »

It's all part of the takeover of Ireland. (It's not overt so most won't see it until it's already done).

Who's doing the taking over?

eleventh · 16-04-2021 1:32pm

Pinch Flat wrote: »

The only people getting upset about this are those who would appear to condone what it's trying to prohibit.

What a simple-minded view. It's very common, it is media and politician-led: If someone doesn't support something then they must be 100% to the other extreme. No in-between or anything outside - it has to be yes-no, love-hate, for-against.

BanditLuke · 16-04-2021 2:03pm

cheezums wrote: »

Seems like most people here are annoyed they cant be racist towards travellers anymore.

How can you be racist towards them as they are the same race as us?

seamus · 16-04-2021 2:26pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

is she guilty of " hate crime " under the proposed new legislation ?

No.

eleventh wrote: »

It's all part of the takeover of Ireland. (It's not overt so most won't see it until it's already done).
The few who do see it or start to wake up will be labelled 'hateful' by the likes of those making this legislation and their lackeys in RTE, Irish times etc.

"Takeover". "The few who do see". Ah, a Gemma O'D lackey. Good luck to ye.

Hector Savage · 16-04-2021 2:27pm

cheezums wrote: »

Seems like most people here are annoyed they cant be racist towards travellers anymore.

racist he says ... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

16-04-2021 2:57pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

if a bunch of travellers show up at my widowed mothers house pressuring her to allow them to clean her gutters , if she utters the following

" get of my property you tinker scumbags "

is she guilty of " hate crime " under the proposed new legislation ?

No.

And not even remotely close.

Outside of the United States, Ireland has the most liberal hate speech laws in the world. It's exceptionally difficult to be convicted of hate related crime in Ireland.

A key proviso under the new legislature remains "the intent to stir up hatred."

This legislation is merely a minor tweak on our already very loose laws.

GarIT · 16-04-2021 4:27pm

seamus wrote: »

It's the same rules for everyone, so that should put your mind at ease.

Problem is people inventing hate crimes. A Garda shoots someone weilding a weapon about to go into a property as they are trained to do and it's a racist murder becasue the assailant was black.

Some nutcase white guy shoots up a massage parlour becasue he says he has addiction issues which is nuts but apparently that's a hate crime becasue he's lying and it's clearly becasue he hates Asian people despite their being no evidence of that.

Police officer kneels on a guys neck and kills him, apparently that's a hate crime despite no evidence of race being a motive.

Police shoot somone who stole their taser that's a hate crime.

3 Black guys murder a white woman and that's just a crime.

Siginificant numbers of asylum seekers in Germany rape white women and it isn't a hate crime, but talking about it potentially being an issue with the culture of asylum seekers is a hate crime.

A black guy stabs a white guy multiple times while shouting "black lives matter" repeatedly and apparently race wasn't a factor.

If you read RTE.ie you will quickly notice, if a black or arab person commits a crime against a white person RTE just says it's a man or a woman comitting the crime. White person commits a crime against a black person and it's a hate crime becasue of their race with no evidence to back it up.

eleventh · 16-04-2021 4:33pm

seamus wrote: »

"Takeover". "The few who do see". Ah, a Gemma O'D lackey. Good luck to ye.

So anyone who doesn't agree with what's happening to the country has to be a supporter of one individual - someone incidentally I'd never heard of outside of boards. She seems to be popular here. These issues existed long before she came on the scene which is only lately, after long & lucrative career in employ of establishment media rag (which in no small part has contributed to the destroying of the country). I don't trust her. I wouldn't agree with her on much.
That goes off-topic obviously, but it's to respond to your slur - automatic assumption that someone you don't agree with on something must be a supporter of xyz.

Again, this type of thinking is common now. In the US it's 'Trump supporter' by the lazy-minded if you don't agree with the establishment view. Here it's "ah, G O'D supporter".

osarusan · 16-04-2021 4:35pm

eleventh wrote: »

So anyone who doesn't agree with what's happening to the country has to be a supporter of one individual - someone incidentally I'd never heard of outside of boards. She seems to be popular here. These issues existed long before she came on the scene which is only lately, after long & lucrative career in employ of establishment media rag (which in no small part has contributed to the destroying of the country). I don't trust her. I wouldn't agree with her on much.
That goes off-topic obviously, but it's to respond to your slur - automatic assumption that someone you don't agree with on something must be a supporter of xyz.

Again, this type of thinking is common now. In the US it's 'Trump supporter' by the lazy-minded if you don't agree with the establishment view. Here it's "ah, G O'D supporter".

So who is doing the taking over of Ireland that you mentioned?

gw80 · 16-04-2021 5:19pm

cheezums wrote: »

Seems like most people here are annoyed they cant be racist towards travellers anymore.

Two things,
1. Traveler's are not a different race.
2. Traveler's are some of thee most racist people you could meet.

gw80 · 16-04-2021 5:40pm

maccored wrote: »

3.When to use an apostrophe - https://www.grammarly.com/blog/apostrophe/

Thanks for that, I shall join, up and tell all my friends that I, am a member, and they will think, I am deadly, because I, know now, where to put apostrophe,s,
Am I using the commas corecetly,? Do you know a club for that too

Overheal · 16-04-2021 5:58pm

gw80 wrote: »

Two things,
1. Traveler's are not a different race.
2. Traveler's are some of thee most racist people you could meet.

Best way to prove your point about travelers being the most racist is to stereotype them as being the most racist. That’s not discriminatory or racist at all.

If you want to be a pedant nobody is a different race. Pointing out that travelers aren’t a different species or whatever is not that clever of a smokescreen.

BanditLuke · 16-04-2021 6:09pm

gw80 wrote: »

Two things,
1. Traveler's are not a different race.
2. Traveler's are some of thee most racist people you could meet.

They are incredibly racist. I clearer remember them openly hurling racist abuse at two Muslim women on an Irish Ferries crossing from Holyhead some years back. Must have been 30-40 of them sitting around all skulling pints thinking it was great crack altogether then when some of the staff on the ship asked them to please stop they decided to insult the ships staff for being eastern european.

Their reputation is well earned.

Overheal · 16-04-2021 6:11pm

BanditLuke wrote: »

They are incredibly racist. I clearer remember them openly hurling racist abuse at two Muslim women on an Irish Ferries crossing from Holyhead some years back. Must have been 30-40 of them sitting around all skulling pints thinking it was great crack altogether then when some of the staff on the ship asked them to please stop they decided to insult the ships staff for being eastern european.

Their reputation is well earned.

But there must also have been cases where regular Irish have been racist toward muslims? Would then Irish reputation for being racists be well deserved because a hate crime occurred?

https://fra.europa.eu/en/databases/anti-muslim-hatred/research-findings?page=35

By your logic this proves that Europeans are all very racist.

bfa1509 · 16-04-2021 6:25pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Imagine thinking that legislation protecting people is a bad thing!

Yes the more safety we have in the form of legislation the better. Freewill and free movement are overrated anyway. Tools of criminals even. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear as they say.

ThunbergsAreGo · 16-04-2021 6:55pm

Overheal wrote: »

But there must also have been cases where regular Irish have been racist toward muslims? Would then Irish reputation for being racists be well deserved because a hate crime occurred?

https://fra.europa.eu/en/databases/anti-muslim-hatred/research-findings?page=35

By your logic this proves that Europeans are all very racist.

So can you say anything about any grouping ever?

cheezums · 16-04-2021 6:55pm

BanditLuke wrote: »

How can you be racist towards them as they are the same race as us?

they're a distinct ethnic group recognized legally, and verified by actual science.

OneLungDavy · 16-04-2021 7:07pm

What about County/region discrimination? I'm sick of being called a "Culchie", can I get some protection? *Half serious*

Overheal · 16-04-2021 7:10pm

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

So can you say anything about any grouping ever?

Well I’m just saying that’s what we see going on with travelers. ‘We aren’t racist but the travelers are all a bunch of racists. I saw 40 of them doing the things one time. Travelers are therefore the most racist breed of people.’

So, you tell me?

Overheal · 16-04-2021 7:11pm

OneLungDavy wrote: »

What about County/region discrimination? I'm sick of being called a "Culchie", can I get some protection? *Half serious*

Scrabble is banning the word. That’s some half protection.

Smee_Again · 16-04-2021 7:11pm

OneLungDavy wrote: »

What about County/region discrimination? I'm sick of being called a "Culchie", can I get some protection? *Half serious*

Mattel’s got your back.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/culchie-among-400-words-to-be-banned-in-scrabble-as-game-becomes-more-politically-correct-40318305.html

HotDudeLife · 16-04-2021 7:31pm

Countries going down a very dangerous road. Will be leaving with my family as soon as this madness subsides, either Romania or Dubai until we decide our permanent move.

This below sums everything up, a childhood friend who works as an accountant was saving every penny for the past 10 years and basically not enjoying life so he could purchase a home for his family. He recently purchased a brand new house in Hollystown Dublin 15 for >400k with a high mortgage and guess who moves in on his road for free....George Nkentos family who are all on welfare, if he speaks out about this will it be labelled a hate crime?

Didn't take them long to cause trouble either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFrli2t8m0Y

nullzero · 16-04-2021 7:42pm

Overheal wrote: »

Well I’m just saying that’s what we see going on with travelers. ‘We aren’t racist but the travelers are all a bunch of racists. I saw 40 of them doing the things one time. Travelers are therefore the most racist breed of people.’

So, you tell me?

Travellers are rightly identified as being racist because they are. This is most likely due to their own entrenched xenophobia which extends to everyone who is not a traveller married with their distaste for education. They're also extremely misogynistic and homophobic, we as Irish people have experience of this, I can understand why you wouldn't as a non Irish person.

I find it odd you're picking the traveller rights rock as the one you perish on. I've discussed things with you on this site on numerous occasions and from what I know of you from that I think you would be horrified by the views that are still prevalent within traveller culture. Let's hope it soon becomes a thing of the past.

Overheal · 16-04-2021 7:57pm

nullzero wrote: »

Travellers are rightly identified as being racist because they are. This is most likely due to their own entrenched xenophobia which extends to everyone who is not a traveller married with their distaste for education. They're also extremely misogynistic and homophobic, we as Irish people have experience of this, I can understand why you wouldn't as a non Irish person.

I find it odd you're picking the traveller rights rock as the one you perish on. I've discussed things with you on this site on numerous occasions and from what I know of you from that I think you would be horrified by the views that are still prevalent within traveller culture. Let's hope it soon becomes a thing of the past.

Yet I see the same xenophobic views in settled Irish.

So you settled Irish are racist, right? Since I have evidence of a good bunch of settled Irish being racist, islamaphobic, antisemetic, and yes even mysoginistic and homophobic - your logic implies all of you must be. Your logic also implies the Irish race are alcoholics because loads of them are.

So then: ‘why are the Irish so racist do you reckon?’

OMM 0000 · 16-04-2021 8:15pm

Wibbs wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out. Thought experiment: Gang of White thugs beat up a Black person. Gang of Black thugs beat up a White person. Which is more likely to be pitched and tried as a hate crime? A gang of Black thugs beat up a Traveller = some confusion. Will this be applied to those who are vocal in shouting that the Irish are racists? I doubt it. I suspect as usual the oppressor/oppressed politic will be in evidence.

Now Bubblypop noted earlier Imagine thinking that legislation protecting people is a bad thing! and of course that makes perfect bloody sense. Only a moron would be against protecting people and that's how this is framed, but it seems to me at least that (usually rushed through)hate crime legislation is a tacit admission that one's diverse multicultural melting pot society isn't quite the pluralistic paradise it's sold as.

Well, yes. Identity politics even with the best most honourable will in the world(and it usually is) by its very nature deepens divides. It marks out those in need of protection by group affiliation and again pushes the oppressor/oppressed narrative. Like this has worked anywhere, ever. But as Ireland has decided, though late to the game, to go down this route, while many other nations are backing off , so we are also firing through the same legislation that didn't work elsewhere. What was it Einstein said about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

I've been thinking about this post and this sticks out to me:

But as Ireland has decided, though late to the game, to go down this route, while many other nations are backing off , so we are also firing through the same legislation that didn't work elsewhere.

It's a great point. Should we be surprised though? There is something weird in Irish society where the establishment try so hard to pretend we're some multi-cultural, multi-ethnic society when in fact we're almost entirely white. All you have to do is look at rte.ie to see how they pretend we're France or something. I just looked right now and their article about our lockdowns has three women, two of them black.

It's this idiocy of pretending we're good boys and girls so of course the establishment are going to pretend we're a country of white supremacists and trans phobes, etc.

It's all so stupid and what's even more annoying is how so many people fall for it.

HotDudeLife · 16-04-2021 8:28pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I've been thinking about this post and this sticks out to me:

It's a great point. Should we be surprised though? There is something weird in Irish society where the establishment try so hard to pretend we're some multi-cultural, multi-ethnic society when in fact we're almost entirely white. All you have to do is look at rte.ie to see how they pretend we're France or something. I just looked right now and their article about our lockdowns has three women, two of them black.

It's this idiocy of pretending we're good boys and girls so of course the establishment are going to pretend we're a country of white supremacists and trans phobes, etc.

It's all so stupid and what's even more annoying is how so many people fall for it.

I thought i was the only one, it is truly bizarre. I recall a recent clip of students being interview regarding the leaving cert and the vast majority were black.

I also observed that in nearly every advertisement, it's mix raced couples and if a white Irish male does feature, he is portrayed as a buffoon.

thomas 123 · 16-04-2021 8:44pm

HotDudeLife wrote: »

I thought i was the only one, it is truly bizarre. I recall a recent clip of students being interview regarding the leaving cert and the vast majority were black.

I also observed that in nearly every advertisement, it's mix raced couples and if a white Irish male does feature, he is portrayed as a buffoon.

Don’t forget the same sex couples (nothing wrong with that). their ads do appear to push an narrative but it’s probably just them trying to be trendy.

Overheal · 16-04-2021 8:46pm

thomas 123 wrote: »

Don’t forget the same sex couples (nothing wrong with that). their ads do appear to push an narrative but it’s probably just them trying to be trendy.

When the airwaves were full of catholic family values and censorship practices though, that wasn't an agenda?

Some companies are tryhards, yes.

16-04-2021 8:51pm

Overheal wrote: »

If you want to be a pedant nobody is a different race. Pointing out that travelers aren’t a different species or whatever is not that clever of a smokescreen.

Travellers are Caucasian.. in terms of a race. They are {supposedly} a different ethnic group.

China has a huge population of Chinese people, which are represented by 56 ethnic groups. They're of the Asian 'race'.

Honestly, I don't even see Travellers as being a distinct ethnic group different from the remainder of Ireland. The size of Ireland and the overall population isn't large enough to have produced a variety of ethnic groupings.. the only difference with Travellers is purely cultural.

cheezums · 16-04-2021 8:58pm

HotDudeLife wrote: »

Countries going down a very dangerous road. Will be leaving with my family as soon as this madness subsides, either Romania or Dubai until we decide our permanent move.

This below sums everything up, a childhood friend who works as an accountant was saving every penny for the past 10 years and basically not enjoying life so he could purchase a home for his family. He recently purchased a brand new house in Hollystown Dublin 15 for >400k with a high mortgage and guess who moves in on his road for free....George Nkentos family who are all on welfare, if he speaks out about this will it be labelled a hate crime?

Didn't take them long to cause trouble either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFrli2t8m0Y

you and others seem to be having some trouble understanding what racism is.

giving out about a specific person or situation - not racist.

giving out about an entire race - racist.

hope that clears it up a bit for you.

cheezums · 16-04-2021 8:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Travellers are Caucasian.. in terms of a race. They are {supposedly} a different ethnic group.

China has a huge population of Chinese people, which are represented by 56 ethnic groups. They're of the Asian 'race'.

Honestly, I don't even see Travellers as being a distinct ethnic group different from the remainder of Ireland. The size of Ireland and the overall population isn't large enough to have produced a variety of ethnic groupings.. the only difference with Travellers is purely cultural.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

Travellers as ‘genetically different’ from settled Irish as Spanish

nullzero · 16-04-2021 9:12pm

Overheal wrote: »

Yet I see the same xenophobic views in settled Irish.

So you settled Irish are racist, right? Since I have evidence of a good bunch of settled Irish being racist, islamaphobic, antisemetic, and yes even mysoginistic and homophobic - your logic implies all of you must be. Your logic also implies the Irish race are alcoholics because loads of them are.

So then: ‘why are the Irish so racist do you reckon?’

Where, may I ask do you see xenophobic views in settled Irish people? A few posters on this site? Or are you surrounded by xenophobic Irish people where you live in America? Do you ask everyone that posts here about their ethnic status?

I'm assuming you can share your evidence of "a good bunch of settled Irish being racist, islamaphobic, antisemitic misogynistic and homophobic" and it isn't something you've gleaned from your interactions with a small number of posters on this site.

I'm also unaware of the Irish being a distinct race, when did this become a thing? I rarely drink and the obsession with alcohol people have in this country is a pet peeve of mine so you're pushing against an open door criticising us for that even if you were being facetious.

Ireland isn't an inherently racist place, there are some racists here, like everywhere but actual acceptance of xenophobic rhetoric is virtually non existent, our largest right wing party couldn't fill parish Hall with their supporters.

The whole traveller issue is difficult to break down unless you've had experience of it. It's easy to look at it from the outside and think "these people are being persecuted" but it isn't accurate.

Das Reich · 16-04-2021 9:16pm

HotDudeLife wrote: »

Countries going down a very dangerous road. Will be leaving with my family as soon as this madness subsides, either Romania or Dubai until we decide our permanent move.

This below sums everything up, a childhood friend who works as an accountant was saving every penny for the past 10 years and basically not enjoying life so he could purchase a home for his family. He recently purchased a brand new house in Hollystown Dublin 15 for >400k with a high mortgage and guess who moves in on his road for free....George Nkentos family who are all on welfare, if he speaks out about this will it be labelled a hate crime?

Didn't take them long to cause trouble either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFrli2t8m0Y

Why Romania or Dubai?

GarIT · 16-04-2021 9:17pm

cheezums wrote: »

you and others seem to be having some trouble understanding what racism is.

giving out about a specific person or situation - not racist.

giving out about an entire race - racist.

hope that clears it up a bit for you.

That's not what the majority believe. I've been called racist many times for complaining about George.

GarIT · 16-04-2021 9:18pm

cheezums wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/travellers-as-genetically-different-from-settled-irish-as-spanish-1.2969515

Travellers as ‘genetically different’ from settled Irish as Spanish

I didn't know we were so similar to Spanish people

16-04-2021 9:22pm

GarIT wrote: »

That's not what the majority believe. I've been called racist many times for complaining about George.

What do you base this on?

Hate crime nonsense

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