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New Luas/Metro lines we might like.

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    #542
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    dont bother collecting social housing rent, reduce LPT constantly... Any power that they have, is too much

    They do collect social housing rent. €4m in arrears were accrued last year, compared to €135m that was actually paid.


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    #543
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭gjim


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Local authorities (ie. councils) should just be building them.
    It sounds appealing theoretically but I never know what this suggestion is supposed to mean in practice?

    LAs should be hiring brickies, labourers, architects, etc.?

    Or LAs should be buying completed blocks built by private companies?

    Or something in between?

    The construction sector is operating at max capacity at the moment - planning permission has been granted for far more dwellings than the entire industry is capable of delivering in a year. LAs "doing the building" wouldn't change the rate of supply of new builds at all - it would just shift this capacity around.

    And LAs have an absolutely terrible record delivering housing economically and most large scale LA developments since the founding of the state have been social disasters.

    I don't get why anyone thinks the solution to the shortage of housing is to give the LAs another crack at providing housing for the population when the vast majority of their attempts in this area historically have been social, economic and aesthetic disasters.


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    #544
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    A new luas or metro would likely go through three local authorities possibly four so probably adding hassle. I think a directly elected mayor with some powers over the 4 authorities including over public transport could be a great thing for the city.


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    #545
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    gjim wrote: »
    It sounds appealing theoretically but I never know what this suggestion is supposed to mean in practice?

    Your comments about the availability of labour are fair, although I think we are likely in a better position than ever to be able to import that.

    My comment about LA's building housing was in reply to a comment about the viability of inexpensive housing being constructed by private developers.

    I think at the root of housing costs is the value of land, and that's ultimately the primary reason why LA's can potentially build housing at lower costs.

    I disagree with your comments on the history of social housing in Ireland being a failure at LA level. That's not true - the failures have come from systemic inequality and underfunding of public services by conservative government after conservative government. Most of the social housing projects constructed in the 60s, 70s and earlier were massively successful. The areas they are in have just been left to rot by national governments.

    I highly recommend sparing a couple of hours to listen to Dublin Inquirer's excellent 4-part podcast about the housing crisis, where they go into this history of public housing, and talk about solutions for the future:

    https://dublininquirer.com/2019/02/06/supply-demand-a-podcast-about-dublin-s-housing-crisis-episode-1


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    #546
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭gjim


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I disagree with your comments on the history of social housing in Ireland being a failure at LA level. That's not true - the failures have come from systemic inequality and underfunding of public services by conservative government after conservative government. Most of the social housing projects constructed in the 60s, 70s and earlier were massively successful. The areas they are in have just been left to rot by national governments.
    There's a glaring contradiction in this paragraph - on the one hand you're blaming the government for the failures of social housing and on the other you're claiming social housing provision hasn't been a failure.

    I cannot agree with the latter having spent most of my life living in a couple of Irish cities. The worst parts of each were areas dominated by LA social housing - particularly large scale projects which you seem to be advocating.

    The political stuff is largely irrelevant to me - the point is that large scale public housing projects in Ireland have largely failed the people they were intended to serve and have failed to serve the cities that have built them.

    We can look around to blame people of a a particular political leaning for this ("socialists" for building them, "conservatives" for not spending money on them, etc) but it doesn't diminish the fact that efforts in this area in Ireland (and in many other places in Europe) have simply failed to deliver on the promises. A "this time it will be different" argument is too weak to convince me that what Ireland needs is another 70s era of mass social housing construction by LAs.

    If people are too poor to pay market rents then they need to be supported economically but it's far better for society and the people themselves and their children if they are not corralled into government built ghettos and instead are given the financial support to be able to live among the rest of society - which means living in "normal" houses and apartments (i.e. privately built).


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    #547
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    gjim wrote: »
    There's a glaring contradiction in this paragraph - on the one hand you're blaming the government for the failures of social housing and on the other you're claiming social housing provision hasn't been a failure..

    No, there's no contradiction - please read my post again.

    I said it wasn't a failure at LA level. In other words, the idea of social housing provided by LAs isn't inherently doomed to fail. I also just think that this perception that all social housing projects are disasters is a weird, narrow view that internet folks seem to have, but doesn't bear out in the real world. The vast majority of Cabra and Crumlin were social housing constructions, designed by Herbert Simms, and they are totally fine places to live.

    The core problem, in my opinion, is that successive national governments have simply created a society that absolutely does not allow people who require social housing to climb out of that situation.

    Anyway, what I'm talking about with a present-day local authority construction programme is not a repeat of the designs of the past. DCC are very much aware of the popular and successful Vienna model, and that's what I'm talking about - less about social housing specifically, more about affordable housing.


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    #548
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,410 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    gjim wrote: »
    There's a glaring contradiction in this paragraph - on the one hand you're blaming the government for the failures of social housing and on the other you're claiming social housing provision hasn't been a failure.

    I cannot agree with the latter having spent most of my life living in a couple of Irish cities. The worst parts of each were areas dominated by LA social housing - particularly large scale projects which you seem to be advocating.

    The political stuff is largely irrelevant to me - the point is that large scale public housing projects in Ireland have largely failed the people they were intended to serve and have failed to serve the cities that have built them.

    We can look around to blame people of a a particular political leaning for this ("socialists" for building them, "conservatives" for not spending money on them, etc) but it doesn't diminish the fact that efforts in this area in Ireland (and in many other places in Europe) have simply failed to deliver on the promises. A "this time it will be different" argument is too weak to convince me that what Ireland needs is another 70s era of mass social housing construction by LAs.

    If people are too poor to pay market rents then they need to be supported economically but it's far better for society and the people themselves and their children if they are not corralled into government built ghettos and instead are given the financial support to be able to live among the rest of society - which means living in "normal" houses and apartments (i.e. privately built).

    Well, the problems are explained by a story told by Brendan O'Carroll about his mother who was a TD in the fifties I believe.

    She was given the job of travelling around to various Garda stations and getting the message across that the numbers of Gardai should be cut. A normal Garda station comprise of a Garda Sergent and nine Garda. Now most of these Garda stations had little or no crime. To the sergent - 'You don't need 9 Garda' got the response 'No, I don't, but if I didn't have them, then I would need them!'. And how right he was. One police lose the grip on the community, crime rate rise, and the severity of that crime escalates.

    Now when the Ballymun flats were built, and were shiny new, there were caretakers who looked after them with a vigilance that would make one think that their life depended on their proper upkeep. Their work kept the whole area in great order. Roll on a few years, and the number of caretakers was reduced gradually to zero. The lifts were not maintained, and the general astmosphere deteriorated, and the 'good' tenants moved out and were replaced by others that were not so socially minded. Thus began the descent of the flats until they were demolished.

    The lesson to be learnt from the Ballymun experience is that these places need social support, sports clubs, maintenance, policing, etc. But so does any other place, irrespective of the social mix.

    We need to be building estates of mixed size homes, but mixed in the ratio of 30% social houses, 30% affordable houses, and 40% market price houses. Currently, the proposed mix is 10% social, with the rest market price houses. The problem is that 30% or more will never be able to afford to purchase at current prices and will need subsidy.

    They also need security of tenure which is totally lacking in Ireland at this time.


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    #549
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    She was the Labour Party chief whip for 5 years. And as he vaguely based Mrs Browne in the novels on her you still get reports that Mrs Brown in the TV series is based on her!


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    #550
    tom1ie
    Registered Users Posts: 10,129 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    loyatemu wrote: »
    in German cities (or at least Munich and Cologne) most apartment blocks are 6-8 stories and served by tram lines. But they obviously have a much higher ratio of apartment blocks to houses, which would be difficult to achieve here without large scale demolition.

    I’m kinda going off topic a bit here, but how can German cities build 8 story apartment blocks yet we are told by Irish builders it’s too expensive to go 6+?
    In Germany who delivers the buildings? Is it local councils and then the builder gets a set price?
    I’m slightly off topic, but the density problem is heavily linked with being able to deliver efficient pt.


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    #551
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    tom1ie wrote: »
    I’m kinda going off topic a bit here, but how can German cities build 8 story apartment blocks yet we are told by Irish builders it’s too expensive to go 6+?
    In Germany who delivers the buildings? Is it local councils and then the builder gets a set price?
    I’m slightly off topic, but the density problem is heavily linked with being able to deliver efficient pt.

    The higher you go up the deeper the foundation goes down, plus we expect car spaces for all which may not be the norm elsewhere, the parking thing is one of the reasons student accommodation is popular as no parking means no big dig, quicker to build and cheaper.


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    #552
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,843 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    salmocab wrote: »
    The higher you go up the deeper the foundation goes down, plus we expect car spaces for all which may not be the norm elsewhere, the parking thing is one of the reasons student accommodation is popular as no parking means no big dig, quicker to build and cheaper.

    I think this should be applied to normal apartments now in central locations...


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    #553
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    I think this should be applied to normal apartments now in central locations...

    It’s a tricky one, for developers it might drive the sale price down far enough as to make the build not worthwhile. I’ve no issue with it but it could be cutting off noses to spite faces.


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    #554
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Connolly Quarter was designed with very minimal residents' parking, in addition to copious amounts of residents' cycling storage. That was great to see (although they later spoiled it a tad by sneaking in a surface car park for CIE use).


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    #555
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Is that not just temporary land use until there are new height rules for commercial, and that area will have an application for offices?


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    #556
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    L1011 wrote: »
    Is that not just temporary land use until there are new height rules for commercial, and that area will have an application for offices?

    No idea in that respect - they tried to claim they didn't need any planning permission for it and have held up the residential portion as a result.


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    #557
    citizen6
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭citizen6


    Article from Ronan Lyons is nearly 2 years old, but as relevant as ever.
    https://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/ronan-lyons-wheres-the-plan-to-provide-20-new-homes-per-acre-in-dublin-36993600.html
    The need for Dublin is an extra 20 dwellings on every acre of the city. What is the plan?

    Do we need a mayor of Dublin before there is a proper plan for the city's housing and transport? In the meantime, can someone working in a university or think tank come up with one, so it's ready to go if and when the political will exists?


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    #558
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,523 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Honestly, if you follow developments on Skyscrapercity, it's fairly true to say that we're getting 6 storey new builds on average where we would have gotten 4 storeys just a few years ago.


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    #559
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    citizen6 wrote: »
    Do we need a mayor of Dublin before there is a proper plan for the city's housing and transport?

    No. We would more likely get someone anti development who would only do more damage. The media would love writing articles singing the praises of some man/woman of the people looking to save a dilapidated cottage from a greedy developer. The bleeding hearts on social media would be all over it too, easy to get people riled up behind such a cause. Anyone promoting density in order to house our growing population in a sustainable way would be vilified and wouldn't stand a chance.


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    #560
    salmocab
    Registered Users Posts: 11,296 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    No. We would more likely get someone anti development who would only do more damage. The media would love writing articles singing the praises of some man/woman of the people looking to save a dilapidated cottage from a greedy developer. The bleeding hearts on social media would be all over it too, easy to get people riled up behind such a cause. Anyone promoting density in order to house our growing population in a sustainable way would be vilified and wouldn't stand a chance.

    Well the current system is hardly delivering, doesn’t the mayor of London have a big say in PT?


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    #561
    gjim
    Registered Users Posts: 1,115 ✭✭✭gjim


    MJohnston wrote: »
    No, there's no contradiction - please read my post again. I said it wasn't a failure at LA level.
    But you also provided reasons (conservative policy underinvestment) for the failures? This seems like contradiction to me as it takes both sides of the question: has large scale public housing projects been a success or failure in Ireland?
    MJohnston wrote: »
    In other words, the idea of social housing provided by LAs isn't inherently doomed to fail. I also just think that this perception that all social housing projects are disasters is a weird, narrow view that internet folks seem to have, but doesn't bear out in the real world. The vast majority of Cabra and Crumlin were social housing constructions, designed by Herbert Simms, and they are totally fine places to live.
    But they weren't always. When exclusively owned and managed by the council they were pretty rough. As more and more property moved out of council ownership, these places ended up with a far healthier social mix and now are indeed fine places to live.
    MJohnston wrote: »
    The core problem, in my opinion, is that successive national governments have simply created a society that absolutely does not allow people who require social housing to climb out of that situation.

    Anyway, what I'm talking about with a present-day local authority construction programme is not a repeat of the designs of the past. DCC are very much aware of the popular and successful Vienna model, and that's what I'm talking about - less about social housing specifically, more about affordable housing.
    Fair enough. I see things in more concrete terms - there simply isn't currently enough housing to meet demand. Therefore you need more residential property. The industry is only constrained by it's capacity to deliver at the moment so the LAs getting involved wont help at all. And, as I've said, I fear that large scale council housing building will just create new social ghettos - like they've often done in the past.


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    #562
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,618 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Has any work being done on the Finglas line such as potential routes?


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    #563
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,351 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender went out for a topographical survey of possible routes in Feb but that could be delayed now due to covid-19.


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    #564
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,618 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    marno21 wrote: »
    Tender went out for a topographical survey of possible routes in Feb but that could be delayed now due to covid-19.

    cheers I was being over optimistic I taught it might be a near shovel ready project


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    #565
    Lord Glentoran
    Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Honestly, if you follow developments on Skyscrapercity, it's fairly true to say that we're getting 6 storey new builds on average where we would have gotten 4 storeys just a few years ago.

    I only occasionally dip into Skyscrapercity to see what that utter bollox SpongeBob is up to. Long time readers will know what I mean.


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