Housing Crisis and Immigration?

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:06pm #1

I see that theres another thread about the primetime episode last night on immigration, but I have my own specific experience/slant on it.

Heres the episode on RTE player https://www.rte.ie/player/series/prime-time/SI0000000825?epguid=IH000368194

Looking at the map they created for immigration numbers in Dublin was staggering. Actually hard to believe. Lots of areas where irish people are in the severe minority, with Dorset street in particular being only 7% irish.

A few weeks ago a family member, a student, had three college mates turn up at the door late at night. Individually they had to leave their own accommodation because of the costs, and collectively they came up with the plan to "stay in the living room" of the family member. And if this last ditch plan didn't work out they would have to split back home to various parts of the country.

Of course the family member wasn't on for it at all, because there was no plan, it was all indefinite. Desperate stuff, especially coming close to exams.

So...

Besides that little anecdote (amongst many!), and then the non-stop reminders of the housing crisis (especially Dublin)….how can anyone not link the subject of that primetime episode and the housing crisis together?

It seems almost extraordinary that immigration is never linked to the housing crisis. But numbers are numbers, or at least they used to be!

It feels like people are losing/have lost their minds. When did the obvious become so invisible? Is it just taboo in the extreme?

I know there are many factors involved in the housing crisis, but my interpretation is that there is no bigger, glaring factor than the massive influx of people into Ireland/Dublin.

Is there a bigger contributing factor to the housing crisis? Some would say there aren't enough houses being built, but whats the point if they will only be filled up immediately? Id be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.

Del2005 · 15-05-2019 2:12pm

The housing crisis is because we didn't build anything for nearly a decade.

The other problem is that people looking for a council house only want to live next door to Mammy when people buying homes have to make do without Mammy.

The rental crisis is because of government interference diving accidental and small landlords out by a biased legislation and RTB.

I migration is a miniscule problem. There is hundreds of thousands of empty houses in the county.

Mad_maxx · 15-05-2019 2:13pm

In order to practice political correctness, certain truths must die

Beit preaching about the housing shortage while completely ignoring the large influx of immigrants or discussing " Me Too" issues while ignoring the fact that minorities are over represented when it comes to assault cases

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:14pm

To clarify, I said "whats the point of building more houses if they'll be filled up immediately?"

What I meant was there is little point in building more housing when you have an infinite amount of people ready to fill them up. Building towards a sustainable number is fine. But it seems to me like there is no sustainability in mind here.

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:17pm

Del2005 wrote: »

The housing crisis is because we didn't build anything for nearly a decade.

The other problem is that people looking for a council house only want to live next door to Mammy when people buying homes have to make do without Mammy.

The rental crisis is because of government interference diving accidental and small landlords out by a biased legislation and RTB.

I migration is a miniscule problem. There is hundreds of thousands of empty houses in the county.

Im aware of these other factors, but taking the extreme case of dorset street for example, 7% being irish is far more important a factor than anything you listed above, in my opinion.

And don't forget that (as mentioned in the episode), there are rapidly growing numbers of non-irish on those housing lists too. There was one guy talking about a new development of social housing of 80 units, and how he believes there should be a priority for irish people.

Edit: Your point about empty housing is a good one. I was reading an article in the independent yesterday and I learned of a new term, "cuckoo" funds/investors. People were complaining (rightly) about outsiders buying property with no intention of living there, or even in the country. It doesn't explain all of the empty housing, of course, but I'd guess its a sizeable chunk. Besides that, if they are empty with lots of immigration, then they would presumably be empty with no immigration too...in other words its a negligible point.

James Brown · 15-05-2019 2:23pm

beejee wrote: »

To clarify, I said "whats the point of building more houses if they'll be filled up immediately?"

What I meant was there is little point in building more housing when you have an infinite amount of people ready to fill them up. Building towards a sustainable number is fine. But it seems to me like there is sustainability in mind here.

We should all live at the side of the road, but we would run out of road eventually. What do you suggest mass murder? We have bogs for disposal.

Building Social housing is cheaper for the tax payer than buying at market rates to use as social housing. It's how private developers make money.

Diceicle · 15-05-2019 2:28pm

I thought it was Parnell that was only 7% white-irish - anyway, doesn't matter.
As I said in the other thread - that could mean its 90% Polish in that area - I think most people automatically assume the area is 93% African when they hear that stat first.

We need to do a couple of things:
- we need to build Up and not out
- we need to get a grip on REITs, Cuckoo Funds and Shadow Banks (David McWilliams talks about these on his new Podcast - worth a listen)
- we need to tax the hole off of land horders and those holding derelict sites

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:29pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We should all live at the side of the road, but we would run out of road eventually. What do you suggest mass murder? We have bogs for disposal.

Youre completely missing my point, even after I thought I had clarified it.

If theres no limit on the number of people, then there is no point in building houses. The housing crisis would be/is indefinite.

You have to draw a line towards sustainability.

Theres one house shared between two family's. Its less than ideal and causes problems. Solution = build another house. That's fine.

The real problem is that you build another house only to have another two family's show up. You haven't solved anything

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2019 2:29pm

RTE reported on this last month
https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/0401/1039821-homelessness-dublin-city-council-report/

Think it was mentioned once on a previous thread here, but that thread was quickly closed and comment removed.
Don't mention the 21% factor whatever you do!

ollkiller · 15-05-2019 2:31pm

Is it 100,000 houses we have vacant in Ireland. And as was said no social housing built for 10 years. So to me it's blatantly obvious terrible government policies have led to the lack of affordable housing for people. So my anger would be directed at the government, not immigrants.

Jamie2k9 · 15-05-2019 2:33pm

Its the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about because you would be branded a racist or far right. Year to April 2018 immigration counted for 50% increase in our population compared to year to April 2017.

UK got sick of it, we will eventually....

Colonel Claptrap · 15-05-2019 2:36pm

There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

My boss is Puerto Rican.

I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

Am I doing this right?

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:36pm

Diceicle wrote: »

I thought it was Parnell that was only 7% white-irish - anyway, doesn't matter.
As I said in the other thread - that could mean its 90% Polish in that area - I think most people automatically assume the area is 93% African when they hear that stat first.

We need to do a couple of things:
- we need to build Up and not out
- we need to get a grip on REITs, Cuckoo Funds and Shadow Banks (David McWilliams talks about these on his new Podcast - worth a listen)
- we need to tax the hole off of land horders and those holding derelict sites

Well, whether theyre polish or Nigerian or American doesn't matter. We have a relatively tiny population, and most other countries in the world dwarf us. As long as these immigration numbers keep up (and it appears to be increasing quite rapidly), we're at nothing building anything. We cant house our own as it is.

I agree about the other points, but I'm still thinking that these are less important compared to the immigration factor.

There was a radio program a while ago talking with REIT funds from abroad. They generally consider 40 apartments a minimum investment. That prices out Irish people generally speaking, especially on new-build apartments. Then the massive competition for renting is severely exacerbated by immigration numbers...all money goes to the REITs. The whole thing is bonkers. Building more is not going to solve anything.

El_Bee · 15-05-2019 2:36pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/

There is no housing crisis, just an entitlement crisis.

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:41pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

My boss is Puerto Rican.

I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

Am I doing this right?

The point you may be missing is that Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood is in ADDITION to Miguel, Ivanka and THEIR ever growing brood.

And as someone else mentioned in another thread, the family reunification thing has an average of 20 people being petitioned to join each individual. And in one case 70. Deco and Jacinta may have plenty of time in the sack, but they aren't going to add 20+ people to the country in the space of a couple years :P

Its numbers, nothing more.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious, that there is nothing "arbitrary" about distinguishing people from different parts of the planet in relation to a specific, localised problem. You seem to have no problem doing it yourself.

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2019 2:41pm

EU migration is perfectly legal and fine (within reason), the 21% factor in the Dublin region relates directly to 'non-EU' migration.

Expect the situation to worsen after brexit, May's twiddling of thumbs will likely lead to TBP winning or doing well in their upcoming elections.
Their next 2019 PM (Farage) will want it hard, very hard and fast.

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:43pm

El_Bee wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/social-housing-refusals-ireland-4607803-May2019/

There is no housing crisis, just an entitlement crisis.

Homelessness and the "housing Crisis" need to be separated here. There is some wonky stuff going on with homelessness to some extent.

But housing in general, the extortionate prices and rents are no figments of imagination. Maybe I should tell those students that lost their accommodation that they have an entitlement problem? They can change their attitude to produce money out of thin air :P

beejee · 15-05-2019 2:50pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Is it 100,000 houses we have vacant in Ireland. And as was said no social housing built for 10 years. So to me it's blatantly obvious terrible government policies have led to the lack of affordable housing for people. So my anger would be directed at the government, not immigrants.

If it were simply a case of available building, then why was there no housing crisis during the recession? Where did the massive demand come from once we magically became attractive to outsiders again (from individuals to corporations)?

Its not anger, by the way, its worry. And yes, the blame is entirely on the government. However, people should recognise that immigration is the biggest factor in the housing crisis, and bring that recognition to elections.

I'm happy to have my opinion changed, but I'm not seeing anything that trumps immigration as the greatest factor in housing problems. Or another way to put it, immigration needs to be prioritised in order for any other change to have an effect.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 15-05-2019 2:53pm

Genesis CoolS Skirmish wrote: »

EU migration is perfectly legal and fine (within reason), the 21% factor in the Dublin region relates directly to 'non-EU' migration.

Expect the situation to worsen after brexit, May's twiddling of thumbs will likely lead to TBP winning or doing well in their upcoming elections.
Their next 2019 PM (Farage) will want it hard, very hard and fast.

Dirty bugger that Farage.

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2019 3:00pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Dirty bugger that Farage.

All while in his traditional beer pose. WillHill have today put his TBParty short (at 5/1) to win the most seats in any next general election.

Time to panic, and build more houses/tents.

beejee · 15-05-2019 3:12pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its the elephant in the room nobody wants to talk about because you would be branded a racist or far right. Year to April 2018 immigration counted for 50% increase in our population compared to year to April 2017.

UK got sick of it, we will eventually....

It may be the elephant in the room, but surely even the dogs in the street must be questioning their own observed reality.

Its not hard to make the simple, reasonable, logical link that youre getting lashed out of it by rent each month, yet the place is getting busier with non-irish people by the day.

The whole thing is a disgrace. And it has nothing to do with the colour of skin or different origin of people. Or maybe you can be racist against the entire planet nowadays, Ted. Theres no fake scaremongering about numbers, they are what they are.

jimmycrackcorm · 15-05-2019 3:25pm

ollkiller wrote: »

Is it 100,000 houses we have vacant in Ireland. And as was said no social housing built for 10 years. So to me it's blatantly obvious terrible government policies have led to the lack of affordable housing for people. So my anger would be directed at the government, not immigrants.

People seem to have such short memories.
In the last ten years we were amidst bankrupt and beholden to the IMF.
Covent policy is irrelevant when there is no money to pay for it.

weldoninhio · 15-05-2019 3:28pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

My boss is Puerto Rican.

I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

Am I doing this right?

Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??

Cordell · 15-05-2019 3:35pm

Obviously immigration contributes to population growth which creates housing demand. But I fail to see which policy can be used to address it other than identifying a convenient "cause" to be blamed and then doing nothing to solve the issue. The housing issue, that is.
Placing immigrants on a different housing list may sound like a good idea as long as they keep the separate immigrant list at the revenue. Oh, wait, there is none, same tax should means same benefits, right?
Demand in Dublin is driven by economical factors, that is the real cause, growth and high employment. This can only be fixed by addressing supply, not reducing demand. Or it will fix itself at the next recession, so be careful what you wish for

beejee · 15-05-2019 3:37pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??

Its all ridiculous of course.

That poster is ascribing emotional feelings to people he knows NOT from here, versus imaginary irish people he doesn't know. It has nothing to do with reality in the slightest.

Its a huge problem when people rely upon feelings versus facts. The issue of the thread is the numbers of people ("extra" people by virtue of immigration, in relation to numbers looking for housing)

Youd wonder how people who believe such things evaluate reality when the huge mortgage has to be paid, or the huge rent paid, or the childrens rent or what have you. Total dissonance. Must be very confusing!

Theres only so long you can ignore reality, no matter how much youd "like" it to be different :P

ifElseThen · 15-05-2019 3:45pm

https://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9_21267543_83_08-11-2017_

Average no. of applications for family members under the Family Reunification provisions = 20.
The largest application being for 70 family members. Significant and unquantifiable impacts on the provision of housing, education, welfare supports.

Minister of State, David Stanton

beejee · 15-05-2019 3:48pm

Cordell wrote: »

Obviously immigration contributes to population growth which creates housing demand. But I fail to see which policy can be used to address it other than identifying a convenient "cause" to be blamed and then doing nothing to solve the issue. The housing issue, that is.
Placing immigrants on a different housing list may sound like a good idea as long as they keep the separate immigrant list at the revenue. Oh, wait, there is none, same tax should means same benefits, right?
Demand in Dublin is driven by economical factors, that is the real cause, growth and high employment. This can only be fixed by addressing supply, not reducing demand. Or it will fix itself at the next recession, so be careful what you wish for

Its true, theres little point in identifying a problem only to have nothing done about it.

But my wider point is that the problem isn't recognised in the first place. You cant fix a problem if you don't "know" it exists.

There are a load of policies and plans that could be put in place to fix the housing crisis. My opinion is that none of it will work unless you address the root cause.

The root cause is too many people. More specifically, there are too many people readily available to confound any attempted solution. If we built an entire new city, it would be filled up within 2 years, and I would confidently wager that the majority would not be irish people. A hypothetical scenario, of course.

As mentioned in that primetime episode (linked in the first post), someone mentions the potential fallout if (its when!) the country gets into a downturn and competition for everything increases exponentially for whats left in the country. That's when the whole issue of "rightful entitlement" will come to a fore.

That will be interesting!

Also, I don't agree in the slightest that immigrants (no matter from where) should be put on housing lists at all. Theres already a hotbed of contention about social housing for irish people, for non-irish people its just absolute madness.

KikiLaRue · 15-05-2019 3:48pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??

We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.

4068ac1elhodqr · 15-05-2019 3:49pm

Add in the factor of job replacement (for all low-skilled occupations), circa 40% of these jobs will be gone by 2030.

Maybe some of the non-eu folks with very basic english or education, can pick up theoretical quantum machine scripting for the new ai-auto toilet cleaner and burger flipping 'bots.
2030+ will likely see cashless-UBI, foodbanks, soupkitchens, gated communities (only for the select few of course) otherwise it's tent cities and 'pod living' for the rest.

On the plus side automation will improve basic standards of living, and clean water will become an important and still accessible asset in NW Europe.

KikiLaRue · 15-05-2019 3:49pm

beejee wrote: »

If we built an entire new city, it would be filled up within 2 years, and I would confidently wager that the majority would not be irish people.

Stay out of the bookies!

Edgware · 15-05-2019 3:55pm

beejee wrote: »

The point you may be missing is that Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood is in ADDITION to Miguel, Ivanka and THEIR ever growing brood.

And as someone else mentioned in another thread, the family reunification thing has an average of 20 people being petitioned to join each individual. And in one case 70. Deco and Jacinta may have plenty of time in the sack, but they aren't going to add 20+ people to the country in the space of a couple years :P

Its numbers, nothing more.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious, that there is nothing "arbitrary" about distinguishing people from different parts of the planet in relation to a specific, localised problem. You seem to have no problem doing it yourself.

But Miguel Ivanka etc will follow the traditional immigrant path and try to improve their circumstances and maybe even buy a house.
Deco will continue to bleed the system and Jacinta will be happy as long as she has a house "near me Ma and me sisters"

Cordell · 15-05-2019 3:57pm

Also, I don't agree in the slightest that immigrants (no matter from where) should be put on housing lists at all

I'm not Irish but in the years I've been here I reckon I payed enough to the taxman co cover the building cost of a 4b house, or more. Probably I will never need housing, but if I do I hope I don't get on the housing list, I don't want to displace any person that is more worthy than me, so I would be happy enough to get the house I already payed for, thank you very much.

ToBeFrank123 · 15-05-2019 3:59pm

I'm not sure immigration is the problem so much as a disastrously unbalanced country where people are piling into cities from rural areas. And also cities are disastrously planned, particularly Dublin where you still have people living in one or two story houses within a mile or two of O'Connell Street. And nimbyism is still rampant when it comes to high density.

In fact, the very same presenters and broadcasters who are outraged about homelessness are often the first to object when someone proposes a new high density development in their neighbourhood.

OnlyWayIsUp · 15-05-2019 4:02pm

beejee wrote: »

I see that theres another thread about the primetime episode last night on immigration, but I have my own specific experience/slant on it.

Heres the episode on RTE player https://www.rte.ie/player/series/prime-time/SI0000000825?epguid=IH000368194

Looking at the map they created for immigration numbers in Dublin was staggering. Actually hard to believe. Lots of areas where irish people are in the severe minority, with Dorset street in particular being only 7% irish.

A few weeks ago a family member, a student, had three college mates turn up at the door late at night. Individually they had to leave their own accommodation because of the costs, and collectively they came up with the plan to "stay in the living room" of the family member. And if this last ditch plan didn't work out they would have to split back home to various parts of the country.

Of course the family member wasn't on for it at all, because there was no plan, it was all indefinite. Desperate stuff, especially coming close to exams.

So...

Besides that little anecdote (amongst many!), and then the non-stop reminders of the housing crisis (especially Dublin)….how can anyone not link the subject of that primetime episode and the housing crisis together?

It seems almost extraordinary that immigration is never linked to the housing crisis. But numbers are numbers, or at least they used to be!

It feels like people are losing/have lost their minds. When did the obvious become so invisible? Is it just taboo in the extreme?

I know there are many factors involved in the housing crisis, but my interpretation is that there is no bigger, glaring factor than the massive influx of people into Ireland/Dublin.

Is there a bigger contributing factor to the housing crisis? Some would say there aren't enough houses being built, but whats the point if they will only be filled up immediately? Id be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.

Immigrants are net contributors to the Irish economy therefore their being here should be helping us solve problems not making them worse.

Immigrants are not the issue, incompetence is.

riclad · 15-05-2019 4:04pm

Look at hotels, restaurants , shops., if all the non nationals left,
there would not be enough irish people left to replace them.
We are in the eu, any person who lives in the eu can come and live here.
This is a myth, if someone on the list refuse,s to take a house it goes
to the next person on the list.
houses are only offered to a parent with 2 children at least.
i think most people who come to live in ireland want to live in urban area.s or citys where its easy to find a job.
Young people from rural area,s are moving to citys where they study or work.
The housing crisis was caused by bad planning and the rescue of the banks .
We had years where there was very little building going on,
most irish builders went out of business after 2007.
Look at brexit in the uk,
it will cause a crisis in the uk economy .
its possible to discuss immigration without being racist .
We are in a boom at the moment,
so its not a supprise if we have more people who wish to live here .
Its well known immigrants are providing tax revenue and providing workers for the economy to grow .

beejee · 15-05-2019 4:04pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.

So who cleaned toilets beforehand?

Are you telling me that employers sought out toilet cleaners from the rest of the world, having exhausted their search for irish people, and those people travelled here specifically to clean toilets?

Do you believe that's whats happening in reality?

Or is this more likely;

Low-skilled immigrants (or any skill level) arrive here in the first place, are willing to put up with more crap than irish people (lower wages, substandard accommodation, multiple people to a room etc) and THEN take any job going? And that employers much prefer a more subservient, cheaper, disposable workforce than irish people? Does that sound more realistic?

You see the problem is that when population of people are willing to put up with lesser standards than before, it drags ALL people into the same situation. Now irish people are expected to live multiples to a room, "bed-shares" and so on too.

On top of that, those irish people are then blamed for being "too lazy" and that's why the immigrants are here. Crazy.

ToBeFrank123 · 15-05-2019 4:10pm

beejee wrote: »

So who cleaned toilets beforehand?

Are you telling me that employers sought out toilet cleaners from the rest of the world, having exhausted their search for irish people, and those people travelled here specifically to clean toilets?

Do you believe that's whats happening in reality?

Or is this more likely;

Low-skilled immigrants (or any skill level) arrive here in the first place, are willing to put up with more crap than irish people (lower wages, substandard accommodation, multiple people to a room etc) and THEN take any job going? And that employers much prefer a more subservient, cheaper, disposable workforce than irish people? Does that sound more realistic?

You see the problem is that when population of people are willing to put up with lesser standards than before, it drags ALL people into the same situation. Now irish people are expected to live multiples to a room, "bed-shares" and so on too.

On top of that, those irish people are then blamed for being "too lazy" and that's why the immigrants are here. Crazy.

Probably the aforementioned Jacinta and Decco, both of who in theory should now be in more sophisticated better paying roles.

Sunny Disposition · 15-05-2019 4:10pm

Unlimited immigration from the EU, no ceiling even possible legally, it’s hardly surprising a country this small with a strong economy has problems.
It’s not just housing, visit the regional hospital or maternity in Limerick and see how stretched services are. Or the schools in most provincial towns.
Freedom of movement is a great idea in principle, but in reality you cannot possibly plan long term while it is in place. It really needs to change to a more restrictive model, like the US, Canada or Australia. It is common sense.

beejee · 15-05-2019 4:11pm

OnlyWayIsUp wrote: »

Immigrants are net contributors to the Irish economy therefore their being here should be helping us solve problems not making them worse.

Immigrants are not the issue, incompetence is.

Its getting fuzzy here becaue we have to talk generally. But are they net contributors? Are all factors being taken into account, or just some that paint a different picture?

Again, the 7% number of Irish people living in the dorset street area...whats the effect for Irish people there/want move there/need to be there?

Is the competition against the other 93% pushing rents up? Is it harder to find accommodation when up against the 93%? Will you face discrimination in the competition against a vast majority of people who are looking out for themselves more than likely? Is it harder to get medical appointments? Use transport? Congestion in general?

If a person pays tax (and theres no guarantee that an immigrant pays taxes), that is not the be all and end all of being a contributor to the country or region.

riffmongous · 15-05-2019 4:12pm

Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play

beejee · 15-05-2019 4:19pm

Edgware wrote: »

But Miguel Ivanka etc will follow the traditional immigrant path and try to improve their circumstances and maybe even buy a house.
Deco will continue to bleed the system and Jacinta will be happy as long as she has a house "near me Ma and me sisters"

Or maybe they wont.

Maybe Miguel and Ivanka will cop on that its a good bet to get on the mythical housing list too. And then maybe their friends and family will want a house "near the ma's and da's and friends too".

The fact is that the numbers are growing. Everything else is hypothetical, and putting more faith in people from other countries, for the sole reason that they are from other countries, is completely erroneous.

Cordell · 15-05-2019 4:19pm

As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues

Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.

beejee · 15-05-2019 4:22pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play

Oh Im sorry, I'm simply re-stating what was presented in that primetime episode that I linked in the first post for all to see. Many apologies for not contacting RTE and conducting an independent investigation of my own.

Perhaps you should thank primetime instead. Or show whats wrong in the report? More information is always better.

beejee · 15-05-2019 4:25pm

Cordell wrote: »

As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.

I don't see any immigrant bashing. Im keeping the topic on point, that immigration is, in my opinion, the greatest factor contributing to the housing crisis.

To be fair, theres been very little said to contradict the assumption. Build more houses, I don't think that solves anything. Reign in the REITS etc, that has its place, but is still behind immigration in my opinion.

As said a few times now, its about numbers, and there being too many.

Fiftyfilthy · 15-05-2019 4:26pm

Cordell wrote: »

As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.

Can you back that up regarding minority of immigrants don’t work and the majority do?

victor8600 · 15-05-2019 4:28pm

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

... hardly surprising a country this small with a strong economy has problems.
It’s not just housing, visit the regional hospital or maternity in Limerick and see how stretched services are. Or the schools in most provincial towns.....

Immigrants pay more tax proportionally to the general population, so less immigrants = less money in the budget to spend on all these nice things you want. These problems are due to the budget allocation decisions in the last 15 years by successive right-wing governments.

Instead of putting money into health, schools and social housing, we are paying for bailing out banks, wasting money to make water services private and waiting for the private sector to build houses for everyone.

belfe · 15-05-2019 4:28pm

I can't tell if this is still the case, but last poll that I checked, there were more Irish abroad than foreigners here. It would be unfair blaming the immigration and forgetting about emigration, so I'd say that the migration numbers are overall positive in terms of it's effect for the housing crisis

Cryptopagan · 15-05-2019 4:30pm

KikiLaRue wrote: »

We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.

Brazilians in Ireland normally come as language students, and have permission to work part-time. Plenty also have EU citizenship, through Portuguese or Italian ancestry.

Cryptopagan · 15-05-2019 4:32pm

The housing crisis is caused by lack of construction. If we are ever going to get serious about fixing that, one thing we will need is for immigrant labour to come here and help build homes.

riffmongous · 15-05-2019 4:33pm

beejee wrote: »

Oh Im sorry, I'm simply re-stating what was presented in that primetime episode that I linked in the first post for all to see. Many apologies for not contacting RTE and conducting an independent investigation of my own.

Perhaps you should thank primetime instead. Or show whats wrong in the report? More information is always better.

It's not Dorset Street though, it's just a small part of it, Hardwick Lane maybe?

beejee · 15-05-2019 4:37pm

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'm not sure immigration is the problem so much as a disastrously unbalanced country where people are piling into cities from rural areas. And also cities are disastrously planned, particularly Dublin where you still have people living in one or two story houses within a mile or two of O'Connell Street. And nimbyism is still rampant when it comes to high density.

In fact, the very same presenters and broadcasters who are outraged about homelessness are often the first to object when someone proposes a new high density development in their neighbourhood.

The centralisation of the country is a big problem, absolutely. Even those students I mentioned in the first thread are not from Dublin, but then the best universities are in Dublin (generally). Same for jobs in general.

So that's already a problem for irish people.

What we don't need is the additional problem of people from other countries doing the same thing too. Its obviously to their benefit because otherwise they wouldn't be here, but I fail to see how it isn't the exacerbating factor in terms of housing for Irish people (and all people, if it comes to that)

Housing Crisis and Immigration?

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