nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Housing Crisis and Immigration?

beejee

I see that theres another thread about the primetime episode last night on immigration, but I have my own specific experience/slant on it.

Heres the episode on RTE player https://www.rte.ie/player/series/prime-time/SI0000000825?epguid=IH000368194

Looking at the map they created for immigration numbers in Dublin was staggering. Actually hard to believe. Lots of areas where irish people are in the severe minority, with Dorset street in particular being only 7% irish.

A few weeks ago a family member, a student, had three college mates turn up at the door late at night. Individually they had to leave their own accommodation because of the costs, and collectively they came up with the plan to "stay in the living room" of the family member. And if this last ditch plan didn't work out they would have to split back home to various parts of the country.

Of course the family member wasn't on for it at all, because there was no plan, it was all indefinite. Desperate stuff, especially coming close to exams.

So...

Besides that little anecdote (amongst many!), and then the non-stop reminders of the housing crisis (especially Dublin)….how can anyone not link the subject of that primetime episode and the housing crisis together?

It seems almost extraordinary that immigration is never linked to the housing crisis. But numbers are numbers, or at least they used to be!

It feels like people are losing/have lost their minds. When did the obvious become so invisible? Is it just taboo in the extreme?

I know there are many factors involved in the housing crisis, but my interpretation is that there is no bigger, glaring factor than the massive influx of people into Ireland/Dublin.

Is there a bigger contributing factor to the housing crisis? Some would say there aren't enough houses being built, but whats the point if they will only be filled up immediately? Id be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Cordell

Also, I don't agree in the slightest that immigrants (no matter from where) should be put on housing lists at all

I'm not Irish but in the years I've been here I reckon I payed enough to the taxman co cover the building cost of a 4b house, or more. Probably I will never need housing, but if I do I hope I don't get on the housing list, I don't want to displace any person that is more worthy than me, so I would be happy enough to get the house I already payed for, thank you very much.

ToBeFrank123

I'm not sure immigration is the problem so much as a disastrously unbalanced country where people are piling into cities from rural areas. And also cities are disastrously planned, particularly Dublin where you still have people living in one or two story houses within a mile or two of O'Connell Street. And nimbyism is still rampant when it comes to high density.

In fact, the very same presenters and broadcasters who are outraged about homelessness are often the first to object when someone proposes a new high density development in their neighbourhood.

OnlyWayIsUp

beejee wrote: »

I see that theres another thread about the primetime episode last night on immigration, but I have my own specific experience/slant on it.

Heres the episode on RTE player https://www.rte.ie/player/series/prime-time/SI0000000825?epguid=IH000368194

Looking at the map they created for immigration numbers in Dublin was staggering. Actually hard to believe. Lots of areas where irish people are in the severe minority, with Dorset street in particular being only 7% irish.

A few weeks ago a family member, a student, had three college mates turn up at the door late at night. Individually they had to leave their own accommodation because of the costs, and collectively they came up with the plan to "stay in the living room" of the family member. And if this last ditch plan didn't work out they would have to split back home to various parts of the country.

Of course the family member wasn't on for it at all, because there was no plan, it was all indefinite. Desperate stuff, especially coming close to exams.

So...

Besides that little anecdote (amongst many!), and then the non-stop reminders of the housing crisis (especially Dublin)….how can anyone not link the subject of that primetime episode and the housing crisis together?

It seems almost extraordinary that immigration is never linked to the housing crisis. But numbers are numbers, or at least they used to be!

It feels like people are losing/have lost their minds. When did the obvious become so invisible? Is it just taboo in the extreme?

I know there are many factors involved in the housing crisis, but my interpretation is that there is no bigger, glaring factor than the massive influx of people into Ireland/Dublin.

Is there a bigger contributing factor to the housing crisis? Some would say there aren't enough houses being built, but whats the point if they will only be filled up immediately? Id be interested in hearing peoples opinions on this.

Immigrants are net contributors to the Irish economy therefore their being here should be helping us solve problems not making them worse.

Immigrants are not the issue, incompetence is.

riclad

Look at hotels, restaurants , shops., if all the non nationals left,
there would not be enough irish people left to replace them.
We are in the eu, any person who lives in the eu can come and live here.
This is a myth, if someone on the list refuse,s to take a house it goes
to the next person on the list.
houses are only offered to a parent with 2 children at least.
i think most people who come to live in ireland want to live in urban area.s or citys where its easy to find a job.
Young people from rural area,s are moving to citys where they study or work.
The housing crisis was caused by bad planning and the rescue of the banks .
We had years where there was very little building going on,
most irish builders went out of business after 2007.
Look at brexit in the uk,
it will cause a crisis in the uk economy .
its possible to discuss immigration without being racist .
We are in a boom at the moment,
so its not a supprise if we have more people who wish to live here .
Its well known immigrants are providing tax revenue and providing workers for the economy to grow .

beejee

KikiLaRue wrote: »

We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.

So who cleaned toilets beforehand?

Are you telling me that employers sought out toilet cleaners from the rest of the world, having exhausted their search for irish people, and those people travelled here specifically to clean toilets?

Do you believe that's whats happening in reality?

Or is this more likely;

Low-skilled immigrants (or any skill level) arrive here in the first place, are willing to put up with more crap than irish people (lower wages, substandard accommodation, multiple people to a room etc) and THEN take any job going? And that employers much prefer a more subservient, cheaper, disposable workforce than irish people? Does that sound more realistic?

You see the problem is that when population of people are willing to put up with lesser standards than before, it drags ALL people into the same situation. Now irish people are expected to live multiples to a room, "bed-shares" and so on too.

On top of that, those irish people are then blamed for being "too lazy" and that's why the immigrants are here. Crazy.

ToBeFrank123

beejee wrote: »

So who cleaned toilets beforehand?

Are you telling me that employers sought out toilet cleaners from the rest of the world, having exhausted their search for irish people, and those people travelled here specifically to clean toilets?

Do you believe that's whats happening in reality?

Or is this more likely;

Low-skilled immigrants (or any skill level) arrive here in the first place, are willing to put up with more crap than irish people (lower wages, substandard accommodation, multiple people to a room etc) and THEN take any job going? And that employers much prefer a more subservient, cheaper, disposable workforce than irish people? Does that sound more realistic?

You see the problem is that when population of people are willing to put up with lesser standards than before, it drags ALL people into the same situation. Now irish people are expected to live multiples to a room, "bed-shares" and so on too.

On top of that, those irish people are then blamed for being "too lazy" and that's why the immigrants are here. Crazy.

Probably the aforementioned Jacinta and Decco, both of who in theory should now be in more sophisticated better paying roles.

[Deleted User]

Unlimited immigration from the EU, no ceiling even possible legally, it’s hardly surprising a country this small with a strong economy has problems.
It’s not just housing, visit the regional hospital or maternity in Limerick and see how stretched services are. Or the schools in most provincial towns.
Freedom of movement is a great idea in principle, but in reality you cannot possibly plan long term while it is in place. It really needs to change to a more restrictive model, like the US, Canada or Australia. It is common sense.

beejee

OnlyWayIsUp wrote: »

Immigrants are net contributors to the Irish economy therefore their being here should be helping us solve problems not making them worse.

Immigrants are not the issue, incompetence is.

Its getting fuzzy here becaue we have to talk generally. But are they net contributors? Are all factors being taken into account, or just some that paint a different picture?

Again, the 7% number of Irish people living in the dorset street area...whats the effect for Irish people there/want move there/need to be there?

Is the competition against the other 93% pushing rents up? Is it harder to find accommodation when up against the 93%? Will you face discrimination in the competition against a vast majority of people who are looking out for themselves more than likely? Is it harder to get medical appointments? Use transport? Congestion in general?

If a person pays tax (and theres no guarantee that an immigrant pays taxes), that is not the be all and end all of being a contributor to the country or region.

[Deleted User]

Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play

beejee

Edgware wrote: »

But Miguel Ivanka etc will follow the traditional immigrant path and try to improve their circumstances and maybe even buy a house.
Deco will continue to bleed the system and Jacinta will be happy as long as she has a house "near me Ma and me sisters"

Or maybe they wont.

Maybe Miguel and Ivanka will cop on that its a good bet to get on the mythical housing list too. And then maybe their friends and family will want a house "near the ma's and da's and friends too".

The fact is that the numbers are growing. Everything else is hypothetical, and putting more faith in people from other countries, for the sole reason that they are from other countries, is completely erroneous.

Cordell

As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues

Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.

beejee

riffmongous wrote: »

Thank you OP! Thanks to your misleading statistic about Dorset Street being only 7% Irish I managed to finally find a shop in Ireland that sells Balkan Cockta! I've been looking for this for years now, so fair play

Oh Im sorry, I'm simply re-stating what was presented in that primetime episode that I linked in the first post for all to see. Many apologies for not contacting RTE and conducting an independent investigation of my own.

Perhaps you should thank primetime instead. Or show whats wrong in the report? More information is always better.

beejee

Cordell wrote: »

As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.

I don't see any immigrant bashing. Im keeping the topic on point, that immigration is, in my opinion, the greatest factor contributing to the housing crisis.

To be fair, theres been very little said to contradict the assumption. Build more houses, I don't think that solves anything. Reign in the REITS etc, that has its place, but is still behind immigration in my opinion.

As said a few times now, its about numbers, and there being too many.

Fiftyfilthy

Cordell wrote: »

As expected this turned into immigration bashing rather than about housing issues
Generally immigration is a net contributor, especially EU immigration. Not because they are better, but simply because most of the people coming here are the kind of people that don't like sitting on their arses and expect welfare and council to sort out their issues. Of course there will be those doing it for the benefits, but that is a minority from what I can see. And no matter what some are saying, the EU migration can be restricted if needed.
The situation at Limerick Regional and Maternity is pure HSE incompetence.

Can you back that up regarding minority of immigrants don’t work and the majority do?

Apiarist

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

... hardly surprising a country this small with a strong economy has problems.
It’s not just housing, visit the regional hospital or maternity in Limerick and see how stretched services are. Or the schools in most provincial towns.....

Immigrants pay more tax proportionally to the general population, so less immigrants = less money in the budget to spend on all these nice things you want. These problems are due to the budget allocation decisions in the last 15 years by successive right-wing governments.

Instead of putting money into health, schools and social housing, we are paying for bailing out banks, wasting money to make water services private and waiting for the private sector to build houses for everyone.

belfe

I can't tell if this is still the case, but last poll that I checked, there were more Irish abroad than foreigners here. It would be unfair blaming the immigration and forgetting about emigration, so I'd say that the migration numbers are overall positive in terms of it's effect for the housing crisis

Cryptopagan

KikiLaRue wrote: »

We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.

Brazilians in Ireland normally come as language students, and have permission to work part-time. Plenty also have EU citizenship, through Portuguese or Italian ancestry.

Cryptopagan

The housing crisis is caused by lack of construction. If we are ever going to get serious about fixing that, one thing we will need is for immigrant labour to come here and help build homes.

[Deleted User]

beejee wrote: »

Oh Im sorry, I'm simply re-stating what was presented in that primetime episode that I linked in the first post for all to see. Many apologies for not contacting RTE and conducting an independent investigation of my own.

Perhaps you should thank primetime instead. Or show whats wrong in the report? More information is always better.

It's not Dorset Street though, it's just a small part of it, Hardwick Lane maybe?

beejee

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I'm not sure immigration is the problem so much as a disastrously unbalanced country where people are piling into cities from rural areas. And also cities are disastrously planned, particularly Dublin where you still have people living in one or two story houses within a mile or two of O'Connell Street. And nimbyism is still rampant when it comes to high density.

In fact, the very same presenters and broadcasters who are outraged about homelessness are often the first to object when someone proposes a new high density development in their neighbourhood.

The centralisation of the country is a big problem, absolutely. Even those students I mentioned in the first thread are not from Dublin, but then the best universities are in Dublin (generally). Same for jobs in general.

So that's already a problem for irish people.

What we don't need is the additional problem of people from other countries doing the same thing too. Its obviously to their benefit because otherwise they wouldn't be here, but I fail to see how it isn't the exacerbating factor in terms of housing for Irish people (and all people, if it comes to that)

beejee

Cryptopagan wrote: »

The housing crisis is caused by lack of construction. If we are ever going to get serious about fixing that, one thing we will need is for immigrant labour to come here and help build homes.

And those immigrant labourers will live in the clouds while building stuff and absolutely wont end up staying here in all cases and taking up the very things they build.

That kind of thinking reeks of pyramid scheme.

beejee

riffmongous wrote: »

It's not Dorset Street though, it's just a small part of it, Hardwick Lane maybe?

You confidently asserted that the numbers are wrong.

You tell me. Or get onto primetime and ask them.

Cryptopagan

beejee wrote: »

And those immigrant labourers will live in the clouds while building stuff and absolutely wont end up staying here in all cases and taking up the very things they build.

That kind of thinking reeks of pyramid scheme.

How do we ever build any houses for anyone if the builders who build them all have to live in the houses they build?

Well I built one house and now I’m just going to live in it and not build anything else. It’s a bleedin pyramid scheme!

Fiftyfilthy

riffmongous wrote: »

It's not Dorset Street though, it's just a small part of it, Hardwick Lane maybe?

Yes, as there is dcc estate on Dorset st (red brick houses) that are predominantly Irish

Don’t think there is any residential accommodation on hardwicke lane . I think it’s just a lane to the back of the immigrant food establishments and to hardwicke street flats

Possible could still be 7% if there are 10-30 immigrants sharing a room in each of the apartments on Dorset st

[Deleted User]

beejee wrote: »

You confidently asserted that the numbers are wrong.

You tell me. Or get onto primetime and ask them.

There you go, screengrabbed, with the 7% area in red, just a small area off Dorset Street, not Dorset Street as you said

Mad_maxx

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

There's a lovely Brazillian lady in work who cleans our toilets. Her English is improving every day.

My boss is Puerto Rican.

I was just handed my lunch by the canteen chef who likes to practice Irish phrases on everybody who visits the canteen. His daughter started learning Irish in school, so he's learning it to help her with homework. He's from Cameroon.

I'd rather have these 3 people as neighbours than Deco, Jacinta and their ever growing brood of ill behaved, future criminal children.

If we're dividing up the population based on arbitrary categories like whether or not they are scumbags, or whether they were born in a different country before deciding if they should be our neighbour, then I'm all for it!

Do you play tennis OP? I think anybody who plays tennis should be evicted, made homeless and kicked out of the country.

Am I doing this right?

So would I

The issue here is the near complete shutdown of any discussion re_ immigration, why is acknowledging that immigration is a factor in terms of demand for housing so taboo

It should be a case of simply listing facts in order to best assess and address the issue, political correctness destroys openness and honesty

Cordell

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

Can you back that up regarding minority of immigrants don’t work and the majority do?

Yes, but no more than this https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/migrants-more-likely-to-be-in-work-than-irish-883643.html, my personal observation and the common sense: people come here to work, not to get benefits.

beejee wrote: »

As said a few times now, its about numbers, and there being too many.

Surprisingly maybe, but I tend to agree here with you here. There was too much in such a short period of time, but now it is what it is.

weldoninhio

KikiLaRue wrote: »

We obviously do have a need for them...

Hiring someone from outside the EU is a pain in the hole for employers, far simpler to hire an Irish person. But if you can't find an Irish person who's willing to clean toilets for minimum wage, you'll find an immigrant who will.

Or hire someone on a dodgy student visa and let them work as long as they want because no one ever checks up on it. And it doesn't matter if you can't find an Irish person, we've access to a jobs market in the EU.

[Deleted User]

Fiftyfilthy wrote: »

Yes, as there is dcc estate on Dorset st (red brick houses) that are predominantly Irish

Don’t think there is any residential accommodation on hardwicke lane . I think it’s just a lane to the back of the immigrant food establishments and to hardwicke street flats

Possible could still be 7% if there are 10-30 immigrants sharing a room in each of the apartments on Dorset st

Yeah I don't know Hardwick Lane at all, I just saw it there on google maps, see if you can figure it out from the screengrab I posted above, but I think I've got the right place

TheAnalyst_

Immigration drives down wages and increases basic costs like housing. It's simple economics.

But if you own a house and have a decent job then immigration will likely boost your wealth.