Rent allowance in different areas, why is it so low ?

handlemaster · 01-05-2015 5:32pm #1

I was having a look at the rent allowance maximum levels for the different areas. In particular I know dublin 15 id say you would do well to get a 1 bed apartment there for 900 euro. yet the maximum rent allowance setting is 950 for a parent with three kids. There is no way anyone can get a three bed semi for than anywhere in Dublin 15. How do welfare honestly expect people to find accommodation with these 's maximum levels. I say this putting aside the fact most people pay privately. If welfare decide someone needs assistance they should be realistic.

Gatling · 01-05-2015 5:40pm

handlemaster wrote: »

I was having a look at the rent allowance maximum levels for the different areas. In particular I know dublin 15 id say you would do well to get a 1 bed apartment there for 900 euro. yet the maximum rent allowance setting is 950 for a parent with three kids. There is no way anyone can get a three bed semi for than anywhere in Dublin 15. How do welfare honestly expect people to find accommodation with these 's maximum levels. I say this putting aside the fact most people pay privately. If welfare decide someone needs assistance they should be realistic.

You don't get 950 though .
It's 950 minus a minimum contribution of €30 .
pw from the receipent.
The maximum is actually €830.

You have to remember rent allowance /rent supplement was only ever supposed to be a short term payment not the 10+years some people are getting for .
Personal responsibility comes into it too most end up getting it after having a baby but several years later it's now a family of 3/4 who's housing needs constantly changes

Eric Cartman · 01-05-2015 7:13pm

handlemaster wrote: »

I was having a look at the rent allowance maximum levels for the different areas. In particular I know dublin 15 id say you would do well to get a 1 bed apartment there for 900 euro. yet the maximum rent allowance setting is 950 for a parent with three kids. There is no way anyone can get a three bed semi for than anywhere in Dublin 15. How do welfare honestly expect people to find accommodation with these 's maximum levels. I say this putting aside the fact most people pay privately. If welfare decide someone needs assistance they should be realistic.

the rent allowance rates set an artificial floor for rents in an area. generally a well kept house in a moderate to good area will always be above RA rates, only desperate landlords or borderline slum property tends to come in under the amount . (there are exceptions to this of course , but if you want to find an RA priced property in an area, start looking in estates that would be considered 'rough' or 'undesirable'

handlemaster · 02-05-2015 10:53am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the rent allowance rates set an artificial floor for rents in an area. generally a well kept house in a moderate to good area will always be above RA rates, only desperate landlords or borderline slum property tends to come in under the amount . (there are exceptions to this of course , but if you want to find an RA priced property in an area, start looking in estates that would be considered 'rough' or 'undesirable'

So levels set are unrealistic

Xterminator · 02-05-2015 11:07am

handlemaster wrote: »

So levels set are unrealistic

did you read the replies, or have you already made up your mind?

if the gvmt decided to raise the cap to say 1500 p/mth in the current situation then landlords would raise their rents in the renting sector, even those renting to private tenants. The only winner would be the landlords.

the issue here is supply and demand in a free market & the tenants who qualify for rent allowance are caught in this trap.

But the state raising rent allowance is not a solution. the solution is to balance supply and demand; or introduce rent controls.

X

handlemaster · 02-05-2015 11:22am

Xterminator wrote: »

did you read the replies, or have you already made up your mind?

if the gvmt decided to raise the cap to say 1500 p/mth in the current situation then landlords would raise their rents in the renting sector, even those renting to private tenants. The only winner would be the landlords.

the issue here is supply and demand in a free market & the tenants who qualify for rent allowance are caught in this trap.

But the state raising rent allowance is not a solution. the solution is to balance supply and demand; or introduce rent controls.

X

So rent levels are unrealistically low . Market rate is higher. It doesnt matter what you think will happen . At present a family of three kids and one or two parents for fingal is capped at 950. It is not possible to find accomadation at this level. So to summerise the house is on fire and your saying the solution is to change the regulation.

Pawwed Rig · 03-05-2015 1:54pm

handlemaster wrote: »

So rent levels are unrealistically low . Market rate is higher. It doesnt matter what you think will happen . At present a family of three kids and one or two parents for fingal is capped at 950. It is not possible to find accomadation at this level. So to summerise the house is on fire and your saying the solution is to change the regulation.

There are places available in Balbriggan at this price (assuming you want to stay in Fingal). If you look in oither areas you will find cheaper (but rent allowance rates may be lower.
Unfortunately we don't get to choose where we live when budget is limited. For example I would love to live on Aylesbury Road but unfortunately cannot afford it.
As another poster said look for the undesireable rough areas as that is where rent allowance is being pitched. It is (and should be) at the very bottom of the market. If you want a nice house in a nice decent location then you are correct in that rent allowance will not be adequate (in Dublin).

handlemaster · 03-05-2015 1:59pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

There are places available in Balbriggan at this price (assuming you want to stay in Fingal). If you look in oither areas you will find cheaper (but rent allowance rates may be lower.
Unfortunately we don't get to choose where we live when budget is limited. For example I would love to live on Aylesbury Road but unfortunately cannot afford it.
As another poster said look for the undesireable rough areas as that is where rent allowance is being pitched. It is (and should be) at the very bottom of the market. If you want a nice house in a nice decent location then you are correct in that rent allowance will not be adequate (in Dublin).

I dont have an issue with what you say but welfare should offer what is applicaple for the area or just say for this area we cannot offer assistance .

Pawwed Rig · 03-05-2015 2:03pm

But they do. You say Fingal is €950 and I have found 2 bed houses in Balbriggan (in Fingal) for €900-950. You may not find something in the exact post code you want but then who among us can whether on rent allowance or not.

handlemaster · 03-05-2015 5:37pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

But they do. You say Fingal is €950 and I have found 2 bed houses in Balbriggan (in Fingal) for €900-950. You may not find something in the exact post code you want but then who among us can whether on rent allowance or not.

You think a two bed is good enough for two adults and three kids. It clearly isnt. A three bed would be needed. How does your search look like for three beds ?

howamidifferent · 03-05-2015 5:43pm

handlemaster wrote:

You think a two bed is good enough for two adults and three kids. It clearly isnt. A three bed would be needed. How does your search look like for three beds ?

My parents raised 11 kids in a two bedroomed house. We got by. You need to cut your cloth to your measure.

syklops · 03-05-2015 5:52pm

handlemaster wrote: »

You think a two bed is good enough for two adults and three kids. It clearly isnt. A three bed would be needed. How does your search look like for three beds ?

A three bed is required? So that each little darling can have their own room, while being in receipt of Rent Allowance?

As has been said, RA is meant to be a stop gap, a temporary measure, not a lifestyle.

Xterminator · 03-05-2015 5:53pm

handlemaster wrote: »

You think a two bed is good enough for two adults and three kids. It clearly isnt. A three bed would be needed. How does your search look like for three beds ?

ah c'mon you don't really think the state should be obliged to ensure you have a 3 bed house in the postcode of your choice just for the asking?

my wife grew up in a 2 bed town house with her grandad, both parents and 3 siblings. privacy was in short supply yes.

IMO the state needs to ensure you have a roof over your head. you work for the rest im afraid.

handlemaster · 03-05-2015 5:58pm

Xterminator wrote: »

ah c'mon you don't really think the state should be obliged to ensure you have a 3 bed house in the postcode of your choice just for the asking?

my wife grew up in a 2 bed town house with her grandad, both parents and 3 siblings. privacy was in short supply yes.

IMO the state needs to ensure you have a roof over your head. you work for the rest im afraid.

Would your wife live like that now ? Different time we live in. Fingal is a big area and the suppléments on offer dont cover the cost of accomadation. Its not a case of what your opinion is its a fact.

Mrs OBumble · 03-05-2015 6:20pm

syklops wrote: »

A three bed is required? So that each little darling can have their own room, while being in receipt of Rent Allowance?.

If the kids are of different genders and above a certain age (I'm not sure what it is), then RA won't be approved for a 2-bed, because it is now believes to be inadequate accommodation. Yes, I know that back in the good 'ole days things were different. But the OP has to raise their kids according to today's standards not those of 50 years ago.

OP the sad fact is that RA limits are calculated based on what people tell the state that their rent is, and that some people do commit fraud.

The legal answer is for you to move somewhere else, where RA limits are lower but demand and thus rents are lower.

MouseTail · 03-05-2015 6:22pm

There has to be a balance where it is worthwhile to work. Having a situation where working families are priced out of an area due to high RA levels would not be acceptable. If the RA levels were raised to say €1200 in Dublin 15, the market rate would move beyond that, and it simply wouldn't be economically advantageous to work.

mcko · 03-05-2015 7:01pm

Easy answer, if you cannot afford 3 kids then don't have them, I have 2 that is all my wife and I could afford, then maybe get a job and pay your own way like I have had to do since I left school in the 1980s, welfare is suposed to be a stop gap not a way of life.
It is all what I am entiltled to, I know 2 couples one is married with a child and they rent for €850 per month both working, her sister is living with her boyfriend and the father of her child, they both work but she gets rent allowance, who is the fool here.
You need to cut your cloth to your measure I would love a big house with a pool but guess what I can't afford it, will the tax payer get me one.

Pawwed Rig · 03-05-2015 7:24pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But the OP has to raise their kids according to today's standards not those of 50 years ago.

Hardly 50 years ago :rolleyes:
Many working parents are living in cramped conditions with expanding families with no access to this type of 'entitlement' but they make do with what they have.

handlemaster · 03-05-2015 7:49pm

P.S .l am not looking myself. Just pointing out the reality for some people looking for housing

Zamboni · 03-05-2015 8:34pm

handlemaster wrote: »

P.S .l am not looking myself. Just pointing out the reality for some people looking for housing

Same reality faced by, well everyone else.
If the budget does not stretch, move somewhere it does.

If this government increase the rent allowance threshold -which they might - it is an admission of a comprehensive failure in understanding the housing situation in this country.

syklops · 03-05-2015 8:38pm

handlemaster wrote: »

P.S .l am not looking myself. Just pointing out the reality for some people looking for housing

What would you say to a couple, both of whom work, who instead of being given 950 a month from the Social Welfare get the same amount deducted from their collective salaries and who can't find somewhere affordable to live?

The Zec · 03-05-2015 8:58pm

This type of attitude is to be expected when you give people something for free, you only see the true value in something when you work for it.

handlemaster · 03-05-2015 9:07pm

syklops wrote: »

What would you say to a couple, both of whom work, who instead of being given 950 a month from the Social Welfare get the same amount deducted from their collective salaries and who can't find somewhere affordable to live?

what would you say to a four year old kid that shares her homeless accommodation with drunks and drug users because her sick mother cant afford a home of her own on low income. You dont have to be unemployed to get rental allowance you know.The broad stroke of generality falls short when you start to look at people as just that people.

The Zec · 03-05-2015 9:10pm

handlemaster wrote: »

what would you say to a four year old kid that shares her homeless accommodation with drunks and drug users because her sick mother cant afford a home of her own on low income. You dont have to be unemployed to get rental allowance you know.The broad stroke of generality falls short when you start to look at people as just that people.

I would put legislation in place to track and come down heavy on the father, relentlessly pursuing him to support his child. Increasing rent allowance is not the answer.

Wanderer78 · 03-05-2015 9:16pm

handlemaster wrote: »

I was having a look at the rent allowance maximum levels for the different areas. In particular I know dublin 15 id say you would do well to get a 1 bed apartment there for 900 euro. yet the maximum rent allowance setting is 950 for a parent with three kids. There is no way anyone can get a three bed semi for than anywhere in Dublin 15. How do welfare honestly expect people to find accommodation with these 's maximum levels. I say this putting aside the fact most people pay privately. If welfare decide someone needs assistance they should be realistic.

your government simply doesnt care about you. terrible government

syklops · 03-05-2015 9:16pm

handlemaster wrote: »

what would you say to a four year old kid that shares her homeless accommodation with drunks and drug users because her sick mother cant afford a home of her own on low income. You dont have to be unemployed to get rental allowance you know.The broad stroke of generality falls short when you start to look at people as just that people.

This thread was started by someone giving out that the paltry 950 a month they get won't allow them get just the right house they want in just the right postal code.

I'd rather we have a policy of giving a home to anyone who needs it be they a drunk or a four year old. When everyone who needs a house has one, then we can satisfy the picky needs of some parents and give them their dream three bed house.

mcko · 03-05-2015 9:18pm

If you increase RA all you do is push up rents.

handlemaster · 03-05-2015 9:45pm

The Zec wrote: »

I would put legislation in place to track and come down heavy on the father, relentlessly pursuing him to support his child. Increasing rent allowance is not the answer.

Fathers dead. What do you suggest ? This is all great with BS on legisation. what about the here and now remember your the one telling the kid.

CollyFlower · 03-05-2015 11:02pm

How long has RA been in place? How did people manage to pay their rent before RA?

The Zec · 03-05-2015 11:05pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Fathers dead. What do you suggest ? This is all great with BS on legisation. what about the here and now remember your the one telling the kid.

What payment is she on? I would assume she is getting at least €188/week in some kind of social welfare payment + increase of €29.80 (x3) for each dependent child. Also childrens allowance for 3 children is €405/month. That works out at:

€1607.06 / month in total government payments.

Here is a beautiful 4 bedroom home in Ballyjamesduff, Co. Cavan for €695 / month, leaving her €912 / month remaining for bills, groceries, etc.

http:// www . daft . ie/lettings/oaklands-ballyjamesduff-cavan/1547561/

And no rent allowance involved. It's not in Dublin 15, but surely that's better than having children in a homeless shelter beside drug addicts and drunks? Or is staying in the homeless shelter a way of throwing her toys out of the pram until social welfare give in to her demands?

Btw if I am wrong about any of those figures by all means please correct me and I will offer an alternative practical solution based on accurate figures.

MouseTail · 03-05-2015 11:13pm

handlemaster wrote: »

Fathers dead. What do you suggest ? This is all great with BS on legisation. what about the here and now remember your the one telling the kid.

What do YOU suggest Handlemaster if you were in charge of the policy levers?
Forget about emotive arguments such as you are the one telling the kid, you are the one announcing this new policy to the nation.

handlemaster · 04-05-2015 7:39am

MouseTail wrote: »

What do YOU suggest Handlemaster if you were in charge of the policy levers?
Forget about emotive arguments such as you are the one telling the kid, you are the one announcing this new policy to the nation.

I think your forgetting its people your talking about if you were to talk directly to them and not from behind a keyboard it would be a different story. Im simply pointing out what rent allowance that is available in a particular area is not sufficient. Posters saying move to cavan its cheaper etc ignores the fact rent allowance falls correspondingly. Examples I have put forward were as a means to show not everyone fits into the neat box of wont work . There are predetermined notions by posters of who gets rental allowance which needs to be challenged. There are people who have lost jobs, falllen sick, handicaped ,incapacitated etc. We need not to fall into the neat opinion that all can work but dont want to.

CiniO · 04-05-2015 8:22am

handlemaster wrote: »

You think a two bed is good enough for two adults and three kids. It clearly isnt. A three bed would be needed. How does your search look like for three beds ?

If they want 3 bedroom, they should be earning enough to afford it.
If they want to depend on social welfare money to pay for their rent they should be happy enough they are getting it and squeeze into 1 bedroom house or appartment.

MouseTail · 04-05-2015 9:10am

handlemaster wrote: »

I think your forgetting its people your talking about if you were to talk directly to them and not from behind a keyboard it would be a different story. Im simply pointing out what rent allowance that is available in a particular area is not sufficient. Posters saying move to cavan its cheaper etc ignores the fact rent allowance falls correspondingly. Examples I have put forward were as a means to show not everyone fits into the neat box of wont work . There are predetermined notions by posters of who gets rental allowance which needs to be challenged. There are people who have lost jobs, falllen sick, handicaped ,incapacitated etc. We need not to fall into the neat opinion that all can work but dont want to.

You have failed to put forward your suggestion of what should be done. Of course it affects real people, all policy does. I asked the question of you so you would have a think about the possible repercussions of your suggestion, and move beyond the simplistic. For example if you want to increase RA levels, the money to do that must come from somewhere, either an increase on taxes or a diversion of funds from elsewhere. It will also lead to increased rents in an existing landscape of severe housing shortages and rents galloping beyond inflation. The only people who will benefit from this are Landlords, not the people you seek to assist. Increasing RA will not make housing more affordable to those at the bottom of the housing rung, rather it will make housing less affordable for everyone.

Cushie Butterfield · 04-05-2015 9:12am

mcko wrote: »

Easy answer, if you cannot afford 3 kids then don't have them, I have 2 that is all my wife and I could afford, then maybe get a job and pay your own way like I have had to do since I left school in the 1980s, welfare is suposed to be a stop gap not a way of life.
It is all what I am entiltled to, I know 2 couples one is married with a child and they rent for €850 per month both working, her sister is living with her boyfriend and the father of her child, they both work but she gets rent allowance, who is the fool here.
You need to cut your cloth to your measure I would love a big house with a pool but guess what I can't afford it, will the tax payer get me one.

Yes, that is the easy answer in certain cases. But what about the numerous cases of a couple or single parent who could afford 3 kids at time of conception & now for one reason or another (e.g. loss of employment/illness/disability/death of one parent) find themselves in need of state aid in the form of rent supplement? It's not as if they can give the kids back or throw them away!

mcko · 04-05-2015 9:53am

Those people would be a small minority, it is people who never paid in expect the most out I know people who have never worked in their 40s and if I lose my job tomorrow all I will get is 9 months on the dole, will they pay my mortage, don't think so but have 3 kids and you get a free house med card child benifit and got knows what else.
I pay almost €600 a week in tax and do you know what I get for that, sweet FA, must pay for doctors must pay for school books, must pay for RA and SW, if I was younger I would get out of here no country for working men and women only the rich and those on SW are ok.

freelancerTax · 04-05-2015 10:37am

why not let the person pick any house they want and just kick whoevers in it out of it?

your ideas of fairness seem far from reality handlemaster - raising RA will only serve to raise rents for everyone including those on RA - and you will be left with a endless cycle of rasing RA - this is not a real world solution

why cant the person move from their desired "postcode" ? people who work cant always live where they desire, why should those who do not work get to?

runawaybishop · 04-05-2015 1:08pm

handlemaster wrote: »

I think your forgetting its people your talking about if you were to talk directly to them and not from behind a keyboard it would be a different story. Im simply pointing out what rent allowance that is available in a particular area is not sufficient. Posters saying move to cavan its cheaper etc ignores the fact rent allowance falls correspondingly. Examples I have put forward were as a means to show not everyone fits into the neat box of wont work . There are predetermined notions by posters of who gets rental allowance which needs to be challenged. There are people who have lost jobs, falllen sick, handicaped ,incapacitated etc. We need not to fall into the neat opinion that all can work but dont want to.

The poster didn't ignore anything,if you actually read the post that was the income without rent allowance - I.e they can already afford it. With RA they would have even more disposable income.

handlemaster · 04-05-2015 5:23pm

interesting letter in the indo today

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/mission-impossible-of-a-single-mum-one-irish-womans-struggle-to-find-a-place-to-live-31193714.html

MouseTail · 04-05-2015 5:47pm

handlemaster wrote: »

interesting letter in the indo today

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/mission-impossible-of-a-single-mum-one-irish-womans-struggle-to-find-a-place-to-live-31193714.html

That's a totally different argument, she cannot find accommodation due to LL perceptions, not because the levels are too low.

Eric Cartman · 04-05-2015 6:10pm

The Zec wrote: »

What payment is she on? I would assume she is getting at least €188/week in some kind of social welfare payment + increase of €29.80 (x3) for each dependent child. Also childrens allowance for 3 children is €405/month. That works out at:

€1607.06 / month in total government payments.

Here is a beautiful 4 bedroom home in Ballyjamesduff, Co. Cavan for €695 / month, leaving her €912 / month remaining for bills, groceries, etc.

http:// www . daft . ie/lettings/oaklands-ballyjamesduff-cavan/1547561/

And no rent allowance involved. It's not in Dublin 15, but surely that's better than having children in a homeless shelter beside drug addicts and drunks? Or is staying in the homeless shelter a way of throwing her toys out of the pram until social welfare give in to her demands?

Btw if I am wrong about any of those figures by all means please correct me and I will offer an alternative practical solution based on accurate figures.

this, this is exactly the solution to the problem.

dissed doc · 04-05-2015 7:22pm

handlemaster wrote: »

So rent levels are unrealistically low . Market rate is higher. It doesnt matter what you think will happen . At present a family of three kids and one or two parents for fingal is capped at 950. It is not possible to find accomadation at this level. So to summerise the house is on fire and your saying the solution is to change the regulation.

Market rate is market rate. The government is not your mother, so you are at all times free to pay the going market rate to live in the area you want. I think my transport budget per year is low as it will not buy me a BMW, that is life. You are being encouraged to move to cheaper areas because there is not an unlimited pool of money. It is plenty of money, outside of high demand areas.

Mrs OBumble · 04-05-2015 7:23pm

CiniO wrote: »

If they want to depend on social welfare money to pay for their rent they should be happy enough they are getting it and squeeze into 1 bedroom house or appartment.

No can do under current rules: RA simply won't be approved if the house would be overcrowded.

Eric Cartman · 04-05-2015 7:30pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

No can do under current rules: RA simply won't be approved if the house would be overcrowded.

very true, plenty of supply outside of dublin with larger properties though. I understand the requirement for access to dublin for job interviews etc.. but Id be strongly in favour of RA and social housing being discontinued for All of dublin city , south and west county dublin aside from tenants for whom a 1 bed apartment would suit. larger properties are only going up in value and the situation is unmaintainable and the taxpayer should not be paying to have people live in areas that private tenants struggle to afford. considering free travel passes etc.. there should be no problem telling people that they have to go to a commuter town.

Cushie Butterfield · 05-05-2015 9:06am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

very true, plenty of supply outside of dublin with larger properties though. I understand the requirement for access to dublin for job interviews etc.. but Id be strongly in favour of RA and social housing being discontinued for All of dublin city , south and west county dublin aside from tenants for whom a 1 bed apartment would suit. larger properties are only going up in value and the situation is unmaintainable and the taxpayer should not be paying to have people live in areas that private tenants struggle to afford. considering free travel passes etc.. there should be no problem telling people that they have to go to a commuter town.

The problem/flaw there is that people receiving jobseekers payments don't get a free travel pass. For the most part the only people under 66 that do are blind/disabled/long term ill/carers. Doing what you suggest would virtually guarantee that very few people would ever come off the live register & that commuter towns would turn into disadvantaged areas before very long.

Eric Cartman · 06-05-2015 9:17pm

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

The problem/flaw there is that people receiving jobseekers payments don't get a free travel pass. For the most part the only people under 66 that do are blind/disabled/long term ill/carers. Doing what you suggest would virtually guarantee that very few people would ever come off the live register & that commuter towns would turn into disadvantaged areas before very long.

places with a lot of people on welfare go like that anyway, by your logic theres no explaining talbot street, east wall , dolphins barn, fatima mansions etc…

if we took all the land currently used for social / council housing in D1/D2/D8 and sold it to private investors, using the money to build social housing in some commuter towns and further a field we'd still benefit financially.

Rent allowance in different areas, why is it so low ?

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