Guinness Pro12 2015/2016 Season thread

Bazzo · 04-04-2016 5:52pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think Connacht can and should win their remaining 3 games. Munster at home would be the toughest but I think Connacht should be aiming to take 4 points from that game. If they follow that up with wins over Treviso and Glasgow they'll finish top of the league. I think it's more likely than Leinster beating Ulster.

When I checked, admittedly it was before the Ulster match, Connacht were favourites in the bookies to win the regular season.

connachta · 04-04-2016 5:53pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think Connacht can and should win their remaining 3 games. Munster at home would be the toughest but I think Connacht should be aiming to take 4 points from that game. If they follow that up with wins over Treviso and Glasgow they'll finish top of the league. I think it's more likely than Leinster beating Ulster.

Glasgow may be tougher than Munster. Tight call
And be very careful about Treviso, lots of BP this season, leading Glasgow at HT, and playing their Champions Cup spot against us. We are targeted, they're aware they would top Zebre only if they win this last home game.

icdg · 05-04-2016 1:39pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gerry-thornley-improving-pro12-product-a-matter-of-urgency-1.2598028

Interesting article by Gerry Thornley in which he mentions a suggestion that the Pro 12 be carved up into two conferences to reduce the number of games, so that internationals would play more Pro 12 games. The two conferences of six would play what Gerry says is 19 game programme, though I can only make it add up to 17:

Every team in their conference twice (10)

Every team in the other conference once (5)

Every team in their home country in the other conference again (1 or 2 - not sure how that is supposed to work for the Scots and Italians)

Whatever about the maths, ultimately I don't think it's a runner at present, between the TV companies expecting a certain number of fixtures and a number of sides having leases on grounds that stipulate a number of fixtures.

Podge_irl · 05-04-2016 1:54pm

icdg wrote: »

Every team in the other conference once (5)

Every team in their home country in the other conference again (1 or 2 - not sure how that is supposed to work for the Scots and Italians)

You're not in the other conference so you play all 6.

Presumably the Italians and Scots would be bundled together for no particular logical reason.

CatFromHue · 05-04-2016 2:07pm

Yeah I'm not sure where all the games are coming from there either. I get to 16 then not sure what he means by

Rather than continue with a 22-game, home-and-away format, he is proposing dividing the 12 teams into two conferences of six, comprising of two Irish, two Welsh, one Scottish and one Italian team each. They would play each other home and away, as well as meeting the six teams in the other conference at least once each, while also maintaining home and away derbies. This would in turn create room for an additional round of playoff matches encompassing more derbies; meaning 19 matches rather than 22 in total.

I also think

In any event, although some of the Pro12 at least reaches a terrestrial audience, it simply doesn’t look or play out as entertainingly. Scattered television coverage as well as scattered kick-offs don’t help; nor does the lack of a highlights package across all the weekend’s half-dozen games.

is a big big problem too.

thomond2006 · 05-04-2016 2:21pm

I assume the extra playoff round means:

- Conference leaders qualify for the semi-finals
- Second and third placed teams playoff for the other semi-final spots

OR

- Conference leaders qualify for the semi-finals
- Second placed teams qualify for a playoff with home advantage
- The next two teams with the highest points in either conference qualify for the playoff as the away team

To organise the conferences I imagine you would allocate teams based on current league standing, starting with the highest placed sides by country and working down, so something like:

Conference 1: Ireland 1, Wales 2, Ireland 3, Wales 4, Scotland 1, Italy 2
Conference 2: Ireland 2, Wales 1, Ireland 4, Wales 3, Scotland 2, Italy 1

Which as it stands would be:

Conference 1: Leinster, Cardiff Blues, Ulster, Dragons, Glasgow, Treviso
Conference 2: Connacht, Scarlets, Munster, Ospreys, Edinburgh, Zebre

I'm all for reducing the number of fixtures. A 16 game regular season would be a good place to start, the less shadow boxing there is between second string teams the better.

connachta · 05-04-2016 2:28pm

French top 14 is doing ok, and we want to split 12 teams?
The only good point is to face another province a bit more

CatFromHue · 05-04-2016 2:33pm

Another option would be

Conference 1: Lein, Uls, Mun, Conn, Scottish 1, Italian 1
Conference 2: Osp, Lla, Dragons, Cardiff, Scottish 2, Italian 2

Conference 1 would be a tougher conference but both conferences would be much more appetising for the Irish and Welsh fans. Probably all fans tbh.

thomond2006 · 05-04-2016 2:33pm

connachta wrote: »

French top 14 is doing ok, and we want to split 12 teams?
The only good point is to face another province a bit more

The French internationals are spread out across the 14 clubs. The Pro12 has 4 international squads spread across 12 teams, it's a completely different situation to the Top14. The Pro12 has far too many games where internationals don't feature, it's a killer to the league's reputation. It's viewed as a second string league for the most part and it drives potential fans away.

Podge_irl · 05-04-2016 2:36pm

connachta wrote: »

The only good point is to face another province a bit more

We face each other enough.

connachta · 05-04-2016 2:54pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

We face each other enough.

No, interpros are the only real attractive games..

Podge_irl · 05-04-2016 2:59pm

connachta wrote: »

No, interpros are the only real attractive games..

I find plenty of other games (Ospreys, Glasgow for example) attractive. Besides that, games only remain interesting when they are sufficiently rare or they lose all meaning. I have no interest playing Munster 3 or 4 times a year.

connachta · 05-04-2016 3:00pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Another option would be

Conference 1: Lein, Uls, Mun, Conn, Scottish 1, Italian 1
Conference 2: Osp, Lla, Dragons, Cardiff, Scottish 2, Italian 2

Conference 1 would be a tougher conference but both conferences would be much more appetising for the Irish and Welsh fans. Probably all fans tbh.

Not necessarily, it depends on the Scottish and Italian team, And Welsh teams are a bit weak this year, not any year

Conference 1: Lein, Uls, Mun, Conn, Edinburgh, Zebre
Conference 2: Osp, Lla, Dragons, Cardiff, Glasgow, Treviso

best balanced solution IMO

former total · 05-04-2016 3:02pm

Fans thinking that the interpros are the only attractive games is one of the biggest problems facing both the Irish teams and the league.

thomond2006 · 05-04-2016 3:03pm

connachta wrote: »

Not necessarily, it depends on the Scottish and Italian team, And Welsh teams are a bit weak this year, not any year

Conference 1: Lein, Uls, Mun, Conn, Edinburgh, Zebre
Conference 2: Osp, Lla, Dragons, Cardiff, Glasgow, Treviso

best balanced solution IMO

I couldn't see the Italians and Scottish agreeing to scrap one of their derbies while the Welsh and Irish don't. Either it's an equal split by country into conferences or it's not fair.

connachta · 05-04-2016 3:06pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I find plenty of other games (Ospreys, Glasgow for example) attractive. Besides that, games only remain interesting when they are sufficiently rare or they lose all meaning. I have no interest playing Munster 3 or 4 times a year.

attractive for global attendance and TV I meant. I can bet with you that the Sportsground Thomond or the RDS would be more filled and TV audience higher for a 3rd similar interpro game than for Ospreys or Glasgow

Podge_irl · 05-04-2016 3:15pm

Why does a global TV audience care that it's a local derby?

And I still disagree. Play Munster 3 times a season and each game becomes less important. I'd much rather see us play Glasgow twice - with full strength teams mind you.

CatFromHue · 05-04-2016 3:29pm

former total wrote: »

Fans thinking that the interpros are the only attractive games is one of the biggest problems facing both the Irish teams and the league.

They aren't the only attractive games but they are usually some of the most attractive games.

You have the top 4 clashes and then the next attractive games are the interpros.

connachta · 05-04-2016 3:37pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

They aren't the only attractive games but they are usually some of the most attractive games.

You have the top 4 clashes and then the next attractive games are the interpros.

which was the same few weeks ago, as top 4 was pretty much the 4 Irish provinces

awec · 05-04-2016 3:59pm

former total wrote: »

Fans thinking that the interpros are the only attractive games is one of the biggest problems facing both the Irish teams and the league.

Whose fault is that?

MarinersBlues · 05-04-2016 8:15pm

Pos Team Current R20 R21 R22 R12 Total
Scarlets (a) Zebre (h) Connacht (a) Zebre(a)
1 Glasgow 56 4 5 4 5 74
Edin (h) Ulster (a) Treviso (h)
2 Leinster 63 4 1 5 73
Munster (h) Treviso (a) Glasgow (h)
3 Connacht 63 4 5 1 73
Zebre (a) Leinster (h) Ospreys (a)
4 Ulster 55 5 4 1 65
Glasgow (h) Dragons (a) Munster (a)
5 Scarlets 58 1 4 1 64
Connacht (a) Edin (h) Scarlets (h)
6 Munster 53 1 4 4 62
Leinster (a) Munster (a) Blues (h)
7 Edinburgh 52 0 1 4 57
Treviso (h) Blues (a) Ulster (h)
8 Ospreys 44 5 4 4 57
Dragons(h) Ospreys(h) Edinbrugh (a)
9 Blues 48 4 1 1 54

Leinster - steady as she goes for top 2
Munster - Edinbrugh seems to be the big one, if they lose that they HAVE to take care of Scarlets
Ulster - steady as she foes for top 4
Connacht - It really is all down to the Glasgow game for top two. I'm not sure the Munster game is as important as people think.

Every point is crucial!
Everyone keep the head for four provinces in Europe! :cool:

errlloyd · 05-04-2016 8:18pm

awec wrote: »

Whose fault is that?

Nobodies, derbies exist in every sport. I don't really get the point. It's true that Global TV audiences don't care, but we haven't yet even got a proper domestic TV audience, so for the team being we need the derbies.

irishbucsfan · 05-04-2016 8:19pm

LEAVE THE PRO 12 ALONE!

Leave-britney-alone-o_(1).gif

ClanofLams · 05-04-2016 8:28pm

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Connacht - It really is all down to the Glasgow game for top two. I'm not sure the Munster game is as important as people think.

It is if Scarlets beat Glasgow, which even with Glasgow coming into serious form and Llanelli slipping up against Cardiff last weekend wouldn't be a major surprise considering how strong a record Llanelli have at home. If Glasgow lose that, even with lbp, & Connacht get 9 points from Munster and Treviso games, Glasgow won't be able to catch Connacht on last day.

MarinersBlues · 05-04-2016 8:36pm

ClanofLams wrote: »

It is if Scarlets beat Glasgow, which even with Glasgow coming into serious form and Llanelli slipping up against Cardiff last weekend wouldn't be a major surprise considering how strong a record Llanelli have at home. If Glasgow lose that, even with lbp, & Connacht get 9 points from Munster and Treviso games, Glasgow won't be able to catch Connacht on last day.

Yep, but beat Glasgow instead of Munster and it doesn't matter what happens anywhere else. We are top two.

Best thing is to win the whole lot of them.

With bonus points.

and amazeballs off-loading all over the shop.

That way we are sure.

former total · 05-04-2016 8:44pm

awec wrote: »

Whose fault is that?

It's not really anyone's fault, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Rigor Mortis · 05-04-2016 10:45pm

If Cardiff beat Dragons, very likely and Ospreys, increasingly possible, that is going to make things very interesting for the last place in the Champions Cup. Because if Munster have beaten Edinburgh, they will be out of contention playing Cardiff who wont necessarily be.

errlloyd · 05-04-2016 10:47pm

I'm struggling to get my head around this season so much.

Not that long ago it looked like Glasgow were dead in the water, Cardiff were brutal, and Ospreys and Edinburgh would be pushing for Euro places.

After Cardiff managed to beat Ulster (and having really pushed Leinster) I joked they might make it. To think they're coming into contention now is pretty crazy. Worrying times at the Ospreys if they're dropping to third team in Wales.

thomond2006 · 05-04-2016 11:44pm

Cardiff lost both away matches in Italy, only 1 LBP to show from both matches. Had they won those they would be in playoff contention and Munster would be in big trouble!

jacothelad · 06-04-2016 10:03am

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm struggling to get my head around this season so much.

Not that long ago it looked like Glasgow were dead in the water, Cardiff were brutal, and Ospreys and Edinburgh would be pushing for Euro places.

After Cardiff managed to beat Ulster (and having really pushed Leinster) I joked they might make it. To think they're coming into contention now is pretty crazy. Worrying times at the Ospreys if they're dropping to third team in Wales.

Yes. In the Ulster game, Ulster were comfortable and cruising even though they didn't have a big lead. Then they decided that tackling was optional letting in 2 ridiculous tries to lose the game and since then have been shyte. In fact all season they have been pretty grim. It's hard to watch when you see what they can do and then have to watch them not doing it.

Cardiff have improved steadily since then and have scored 54 tries while conceding a massive 43. Warburton has even played for them so things must have been looking up for him to bother putting his boots on.

The only vague consolation I have about Ulster so far is the facts that while playing absolute brain dead and naive rugby all season they have scored a lot of tries - 45 and conceded relatively few - 23 and some of those were just due to shocking defending. They are doing some things right, just not often enough.

I think this season will see the top 4 teams finishing with the lowest ever points totals. Is it more competitive or are the top teams having a season ruined by the RWC? Maybe a little of one and a lot of the other.

neelia11 · 06-04-2016 12:48pm

The dragons are going solo, cutting ownership from wru and newport rfc to line up fresh investment

BBDBB · 06-04-2016 12:53pm

neelia11 wrote: »

The dragons are going solo, cutting ownership from wru and newport rfc to line up fresh investment

Its a really interesting development if it comes off.
On one hand, they are a region that has struggled on the field since creation and so would be dissatisfied with how the wru has handled things and its impact upon them.
on the other they are the little brother of the welsh regions so how good a deal they could attract off their own bat would on the face of it be limited. If its better than the current hand they have been dealt you can see why they would be first to want out. Maybe the success of Connacht and even Leicester in soccer this season has raised a lot ambitions

neelia11 · 06-04-2016 12:59pm

BBDBB wrote: »

Its a really interesting development if it comes off.
On one hand, they are a region that has struggled on the field since creation and so would be dissatisfied with how the wru has handled things and its impact upon them.
on the other they are the little brother of the welsh regions so how good a deal they could attract off their own bat would on the face of it be limited. If its better than the current hand they have been dealt you can see why they would be first to want out. Maybe the success of Connacht and even Leicester in soccer this season has raised a lot ambitions

Well on twitter the suggestion is this is in the pipeline for a year or more so you have to assume they have something lined up

BBDBB · 06-04-2016 1:12pm

I think you're probably right, they'd have to be mad not to have at least explored this before announcing it was on the cards

BBDBB · 06-04-2016 1:13pm

that year long pipeline you mention would probably indicate it was a dissatisfaction with the wru to be the main driver

Quintis · 06-04-2016 1:34pm

neelia11 wrote: »

The dragons are going solo, cutting ownership from wru and newport rfc to line up fresh investment

I wonder how this fits with the new central WRU contracts? Will the centrally contracted Welsh players play exclusively for the Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues?

BBDBB · 06-04-2016 1:40pm

Quintis wrote: »

I wonder how this fits with the new central WRU contracts? Will the centrally contracted Welsh players play exclusively for the Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues?

Interesting point, presumably with the Dragons being better off financially they could attract bigger/better signings and be more competitive in the pro 12/Europe, better marketing and on field success could draw a bigger fan base and get the remaining regions looking with envy at their freedom from the wru yoke. This could be really seismic for welsh rugby

neelia11 · 06-04-2016 1:43pm

Quintis wrote: »

I wonder how this fits with the new central WRU contracts? Will the centrally contracted Welsh players play exclusively for the Ospreys, Scarlets and Blues?

well the dragons were the only region who were part owned by the WRU, so dont know if this will exclude them from the central contracts.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35973882

DGRulz · 08-04-2016 10:42am

I've been playing around with a few ideas in my head for a while. They all involve bringing in London Welsh and London Scottish and the formation of Georgian and Romanian club sides similar to Los Jaguares. While the London based teams more than likely wouldn't bring much in terms of competition, the league having a profile in London might be very useful going forward.

Option 1:

Divide the current teams into conferences based of geographical location. You play everyone in your conference home and away (6) and everyone in another conference home and away (8). From there we combine the two sets of conferences that play each other into two pots(A &

of 8 and every team in pot A is drawn against a team in pot B for a home and away fixture (2) leading to a total of 16 regular season games. From there you take the top one or two from each conference and have semi/ quarter finals, giving a maximum number of games of 18 or 19.

Ire | Wales | Scot & Lon | Continent
Lein | Scar | Glas | Zebre
Mun | Osp | Edin | Trev
Uls | Card | Lon W | Georgia
Conn | Drag | Lon S | Rom

Option 2:

You take last Pro12 table and add the four new teams to the end. For the sake of fairness in terms of seeding you could have a once off mini-league between the four new times to decide their seeding at the bottom of the table Create 4 pools of 4 based on seeding and drawing randomly. Taking the current Pro12 standings and randomly assign one of the new 4 to each it might looks something like this. You play the same as Option 1 leading to 18/19 games max and then at the end of the regular season the bottom two teams in each pool are swapped around.

Pool 1 | Pool 2 | Pool 3 | Pool 4
Lein | Scar | Glas | Conn
Uls | Mun | Card | Edin
Trev | Osp | Drag | Zebre
Georgia | Lon W | Lon S | Rom

Option 3:

Take the scenario from Option 1 and add London Irish as a fifth team to the Scottish/London conference. Now instead of conferences being combined to draw games 15 and 16 the two conferences that would have made up pot A are kept separated and drawn against one another for a home and away fixtures. Everyone still plays 16 regular season games and we proceed to finals in whatever way as above.

Option 4:(and is never going to happen)

Option 1 in the form of a British and Irish Super League (with or without the Romanian and Georgian club sides). It would mean more regular meaningful competition again higher quality teams.

Option 5:(and is definitely never going to happen)
Options 1 & 4 but expanded. European rugby goes completely crazy and scraps all leagues(Pro 12, AP, Top 14) and the RCC and we have a European Super Dooper league.

CatFromHue · 08-04-2016 11:58am

No offence but bringing London Scottish and Welsh and or bringing in a Georgian or Romanian team is really bad idea.

The current problem with the league is a lack of competition and bringing in 4 more weak teams, in any format, will kill the league.

Lets be realistic any game against Zebre, Treviso, and Dragons all the talk about it beforehand is whether a team will get a 5 pointer or not.

Zebre, Dragons, and Treviso combined have only 1 more win than the team in 9th. Ospreys have 9 wins and those 3 combined have 10.

There's a near 20 point gap between Ospreys and Dragons too.

I have little interest in watching Leinster play Dragons, Treviso, or Zebre, but I have none of watching them play any of Welsh, Scottish, Romanian, or Georgian teams.

bilston · 08-04-2016 12:07pm

The best way to make the league better is to make the top players available for a lot more games than they are at the minute.

johnnyryan89 · 08-04-2016 12:07pm

neelia11 wrote: »

The dragons are going solo, cutting ownership from wru and newport rfc to line up fresh investment

Is that something that any of the Irish Provinces could attempt to do or are they stuck with the IRFU?

bilston · 08-04-2016 12:10pm

I read elsewhere that sky may be pulling out of the Pro 12 because of low viewing figures...great..

DGRulz · 08-04-2016 12:12pm

bilston wrote: »

I read elsewhere that sky may be pulling out of the Pro 12 because of low viewing figures...great..

Really? I read the opposite, that they were happy getting X amount. Although, admittedly, I think it was from someone of the Pro12 board

CatFromHue · 08-04-2016 12:15pm

Do Sky offer much money to the league?

If not, and possibly even if they do, them leaving could be a bonus to the league.

I'd imagine with RTE having lost the 6N's they'd be interested in getting the Pro12 back and I felt that the season before Sky got involved the league had the most accessibility it ever had.

DGRulz · 08-04-2016 12:21pm

Could always have Irish coverage on TV3. Matt Cooper. Every week. Fun ...

Cookiemunster · 08-04-2016 12:22pm

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Is that something that any of the Irish Provinces could attempt to do or are they stuck with the IRFU?

No. Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff Blues were always independent of the WRU. Dragons are currently only 50% owned by the WRU. The provinces are arms of the IRFU and therefore 100% the property of the IRFU.

08-04-2016 12:23pm

johnnyryan89 wrote: »

Is that something that any of the Irish Provinces could attempt to do or are they stuck with the IRFU?

This is a question that is in nobody's long-term interests to have answered btw.

The harsh reality of the setup is that the €€€ transfers must occur. Having the central body affords that chance. Someone has to lose out short term for someone else's gain, but there's long term benefit.

Cookiemunster · 08-04-2016 12:25pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Do Sky offer much money to the league?

If not, and possibly even if they do, them leaving could be a bonus to the league.

I'd imagine with RTE having lost the 6N's they'd be interested in getting the Pro12 back and I felt that the season before Sky got involved the league had the most accessibility it ever had.

Wasn't it 5m (not sure if that was pound or Euros) over 4 years? That's pittance for Sky. It was Rees in the Guardian who said that Sky were thinking of getting out a year early, but that completely contradicts what the Pro12 CEO Martin Anayi earlier this week. He said that Sky were very happy with the viewing figures.

bilston · 08-04-2016 12:48pm

Hopefully Rees has that wrong.

It might not go down well with some but I think next time round the Pro 12 really need to go for an exclusive deal with Pay TV. They'd get more money, I don't think it would affect attendances negatively in Ireland and if anything it will improve attendances in Wales as BBC Wales and S4C would no longer carry live coverage.

Sky's actual coverage has been pretty good. However they haven't advertised it or hyped it nearly as much as I thought they would.

Guinness Pro12 2015/2016 Season thread

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