Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

.ak · 31-07-2015 10:35am

Weird that the 'supporters' version would look different like that.

awec · 31-07-2015 10:51am

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

On the website the Kohilo one is the one with a different neck line.

There's only it and the players one listed.

There's always a cotton one too for the traditionalists.

Hagz · 10-08-2015 10:34pm

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3783/Jacob-Stockdale-Ready-to-make-the-step-up.aspx

Ulster don't waste any time bringing through young lads anyway. Sam Arnold has been promoted to the senior squad as well.

RobbieRuns · 11-08-2015 8:21am

Both still U20 this year, a great achievement by them.

Buer · 11-08-2015 9:06am

I wonder is there anything to be said for holding off on promoting guys like this at such a young age? Chris Farrell and Stuart Olding have both ruptured cruciate ligaments after being brought through very young. Luke Marshall looks a shadow of the player he was when he first emerged. While his concussions can't be put down to coming through at that age, how he has responded to them and lost form might be.

Do the players need another year or two to become more robust and develop a little further before being launched at this level?

smiley_face · 11-08-2015 10:02am

Buer wrote: »

I wonder is there anything to be said for holding off on promoting guys like this at such a young age? Chris Farrell and Stuart Olding have both ruptured cruciate ligaments after being brought through very young. Luke Marshall looks a shadow of the player he was when he first emerged. While his concussions can't be put down to coming through at that age, how he has responded to them and lost form might be.

Do the players need another year or two to become more robust and develop a little further before being launched at this level?

Ulster have great 12 options this season. Cave, McCloskey, and now this young talent coming up through the ranks.
Even with Stuart Olding injured and Luke Marshall out of form, and Chris Farrell gone to Grenoble, to have that strength in depth is formidable.
Also, but for his tragic passing, Nevin Spence was a very promising player before his untimely death. RIP

Buer · 11-08-2015 10:20am

smiley_face wrote: »

Ulster have great 12 options this season. Cave, McCloskey, and now this young talent coming up through the ranks.
Even with Stuart Olding injured and Luke Marshall out of form, and Chris Farrell gone to Grenoble, to have that strength in depth is formidable.

Indeed. So I don't really see the necessity to bring Sam Arnold into the senior squad. He's 19; let him develop at U20 level for another year and work on his long term conditioning.

If other teams were sniffing around and forced their hand, then fair enough but it seems Ulster are very eager to promote these lads. It's understandable given the abundance of talent these guys possess but, at this stage, I do wonder whether it can hinder their development particularly from a physical perspective.

smiley_face · 11-08-2015 10:31am

Buer wrote: »

Indeed. So I don't really see the necessity to bring Sam Arnold into the senior squad. He's 19; let him develop at U20 level for another year and work on his long term conditioning.

If other teams were sniffing around and forced their hand, then fair enough but it seems Ulster are very eager to promote these lads. It's understandable given the abundance of talent these guys possess but, at this stage, I do wonder whether it can hinder their development particularly from a physical perspective.

I couldn't find any mention anywhere if he is a big lad, but if he's anything close to the size of McCloskey (even though he's only 19) he should have no problem handling himself physically.
If he is a normal sized 19 year old then it would seem dangerous to put him in at 12 considering the number of big 12s around in other teams and the possibility of big back-rows frequently opting for crash balls down the 10-12 channel.
I'd guess they are promoting him to give him a taste of what it's like being with the senior squad and probably won't get any game-time, and perhaps to prevent other clubs enticing him away with the offer of being a senior squad player elsewhere.

.ak · 11-08-2015 10:35am

I've seen him up close, he's massive. He's built like Peter Robb, so he's physically big enough for senior rugby, but I think being ready for the physicality is a different story all together.

I do think Buer raises a pretty good point. Ulster are churning out these centres, all are brilliant and billed as the next big international, but there's a worrying trend with their injury record.

Ulstermello · 11-08-2015 10:37am

awec wrote: »

There's always a cotton one too for the traditionalists.

Where!? I'm a traditionalist (cant understand why anyone would rather wear that wierd plasticy nylon stuff when they dont need to for performance) and cant see one on the Ulster site at the mo.

awec · 11-08-2015 10:43am

Ulstermello wrote: »

Where!? I'm a traditionalist (cant understand why anyone would rather wear that wierd plasticy nylon stuff when they dont need to for performance) and cant see one on the Ulster site at the mo.

Might take a few weeks to appear. The supporters one isn't even available to buy yet.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 11-08-2015 10:44am

.ak wrote: »

I do think Buer raises a pretty good point. Ulster are churning out these centres, all are brilliant and billed as the next big international, but there's a worrying trend with their injury record.

The international selections may allude to this too? On paper Ulster have a number of exciting centre pairings and yet Schmidt ignores them all and gIves the 13 shirt to a guy playing full back.

irishbucsfan · 11-08-2015 11:08am

There's also often some negotiation involved with these things, like when Butler went straight onto a development contract with Munster the rumour was that he had been approached by other who offered him pro deals. It could be that with Arnold being English that he had interest from the AP and Ulster decided to give him the senior contract to ensure they hang on to him.

Buer · 11-08-2015 1:49pm

smiley_face wrote: »

I couldn't find any mention anywhere if he is a big lad, but if he's anything close to the size of McCloskey (even though he's only 19) he should have no problem handling himself physically.
If he is a normal sized 19 year old then it would seem dangerous to put him in at 12 considering the number of big 12s around in other teams and the possibility of big back-rows frequently opting for crash balls down the 10-12 channel.
I'd guess they are promoting him to give him a taste of what it's like being with the senior squad and probably won't get any game-time, and perhaps to prevent other clubs enticing him away with the offer of being a senior squad player elsewhere.

He's a big unit and I'm sure he'll be able to handle Pro12 levels during the RWC. He was physically dominating other players in the U20 games.

I'm more suggesting that taking them out of a tailored developmental set up. Removing them while they're still growing and bodies are changing could be detrimental to their long term fitness and conditioning as well as their ability to come back from resulting serious injuries mentally. Complete guesswork on my part but it appears to happen a fair bit.

Chris Farrell and Luke Marshall were both big, powerful players at 20 years old but both have suffered significant knocks as young players and have never really returned to the levels that were expected of them once upon a time.

I really hope Olding manages to as he's probably the most talented of the lot but also arguably has the worst injury record of the lot at this point.

bilston · 11-08-2015 2:37pm

Buer makes a fair point.

However Arnold may be a special case because I would imagine a few Premiership clubs would have been sniffing after him.

bilston · 11-08-2015 2:41pm

Buer wrote: »

I really hope Olding manages to as he's probably the most talented of the lot but also arguably has the worst injury record of the lot at this point.

Two ruptured ACLs, there is no arguably about it!

Basically every one of our young cubs that have gone on to play for the first team regularly and to have been capped by Ireland has had a significant injury that has kept them out for months at a time so you do have a point.

total former · 11-08-2015 3:04pm

It's not just an Ulster problem. Leinster fast-tracked Conway and Macken with terrible results. Munster gave Nagle a pro contract on the back of one game and an alleged offer from Northampton, that was a shocking call too. Go back even earlier to Luke Fitz, a Leinster regular at the age of 19.

People often complain we're too slow to give youth a chance but the recent history might make you think otherwise.

irishbucsfan · 11-08-2015 3:07pm

total former wrote: »

It's not just an Ulster problem. Leinster fast-tracked Conway and Macken with terrible results. Munster gave Nagle a pro contract on the back of one game and an alleged offer from Northampton, that was a shocking call too. Go back even earlier to Luke Fitz, a Leinster regular at the age of 19.

People often complain we're too slow to give youth a chance but the recent history might make you think otherwise.

People forget it now but Rob Kearney was the same as well, there was a period when people on this forum were suggesting Rob Kearney would never be able to stay fit and Ireland should forget him!

A lot of guys do get beyond those injury streaks, it would be utterly depressing if these Ulster guys aren't able to because there's so much talent up north.

RobbieRuns · 11-08-2015 3:12pm

bilston wrote: »

Buer makes a fair point.

However Arnold may be a special case because I would imagine a few Premiership clubs would have been sniffing after him.

Do not see that myself. Why would premiership teams be sniffing after him? Sam Arnold turned down the H'Quins academy to go to Ulster to play for Ireland U20's. He still is U20 and will play for Ireland next year as well, why would he give that up and go to England? He is a good player and is in the Irish system, why would he change?

He has shown that he wants to play for Ireland by coming here, make no sense to me to change when he has another year of age grade rugby left. In two or three years time maybe they would look at him as he is English born, but not when he is 19.

irishbucsfan · 11-08-2015 3:22pm

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Do not see that myself. Why would premiership teams be sniffing after him? Sam Arnold turned down the H'Quins academy to go to Ulster to play for Ireland U20's. He still is U20 and will play for Ireland next year as well, why would he give that up and go to England? He is a good player and is in the Irish system, why would he change?

Money. The market for potential EPS backs is lucrative.

The Lost Sheep · 11-08-2015 3:25pm

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Do not see that myself. Why would premiership teams be sniffing after him? Sam Arnold turned down the H'Quins academy to go to Ulster to play for Ireland U20's. He still is U20 and will play for Ireland next year as well, why would he give that up and go to England? He is a good player and is in the Irish system, why would he change?

He has shown that he wants to play for Ireland by coming here, make no sense to me to change when he has another year of age grade rugby left. In two or three years time maybe they would look at him as he is English born, but not when he is 19.

Arnold is English qualified. EPS space, funding etc. He has a lot of guys ahead of him in Ulster and there is many reasons why English clubs would look at him.

bilston · 11-08-2015 4:44pm

RobbieRuns wrote: »

Do not see that myself. Why would premiership teams be sniffing after him? Sam Arnold turned down the H'Quins academy to go to Ulster to play for Ireland U20's. He still is U20 and will play for Ireland next year as well, why would he give that up and go to England? He is a good player and is in the Irish system, why would he change?

He has shown that he wants to play for Ireland by coming here, make no sense to me to change when he has another year of age grade rugby left. In two or three years time maybe they would look at him as he is English born, but not when he is 19.

I'm not saying Arnold would want to go back to England but he still qualifies for them and any Premiership club scout worth his salt would know that.

Ulster apparently giving him a development contract shows how much they value him. It is probably Ulster being pro-active.

RobbieRuns · 11-08-2015 6:07pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Arnold is English qualified. EPS space, funding etc. He has a lot of guys ahead of him in Ulster and there is many reasons why English clubs would look at him.

I know there are plenty of reasons why they would look at him especially as,he is EQP, but my point is why would he change now? He has another year in Irish 20's and would be one of the leading lights next year. He would be daft to move now, he has shown that he wants to play here, there is no chance of him moving no matter who is sniffing around.

of course any premiership team would know of him, he went to school in England after all. My point was that he would have been offered a development contract on his ability and performances, not because of English teams trying to attract him. In a few years it might be a problem but not now, not at this time. He is still a prospect, a great prospect but that is all.

irishbucsfan · 11-08-2015 6:28pm

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I know there are plenty of reasons why they would look at him especially as,he is EQP, but my point is why would he change now? He has another year in Irish 20's and would be one of the leading lights next year. He would be daft to move now, he has shown that he wants to play here, there is no chance of him moving no matter who is sniffing around.

of course any premiership team would know of him, he went to school in England after all. My point was that he would have been offered a development contract on his ability and performances, not because of English teams trying to attract him. In a few years it might be a problem but not now, not at this time. He is still a prospect, a great prospect but that is all.

It would hardly be the first case of academy level players being given senior contracts because of interest from other teams, supposedly the same happened with Fitzgerald when he came out of Blackrock.

It's not a case of why would he move either, he probably has no real intention of moving, but if he got an offer that was considerably better than an academy contract (which are not particularly lucrative) then it changes things quite dramatically. I'm very happy at my job but if someone offered me a multiple of my salary...

Hagz · 11-08-2015 9:25pm

He might as well be promoted. Not to sound harsh or anything, but the ravens are really muck, and I don't think a player of his quality has all that much to gain training alongside the academy boys.
I don't think the promotion means much anyway. The likes of Garry Ringrose and Ross Molony were brought up at the tail end of the season in Leinster to train with the senior squad. This is the same thing except they've made it permanent.

jacothelad · 12-08-2015 9:36am

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's also often some negotiation involved with these things, like when Butler went straight onto a development contract with Munster the rumour was that he had been approached by other who offered him pro deals. It could be that with Arnold being English that he had interest from the AP and Ulster decided to give him the senior contract to ensure they hang on to him.

That makes sense but also having seen him in action I think it's more likely because he is big enough and highly talented. With regard to injuries to 'young' players, remember that Luke Marshall was already an international when he suffered 4 successive and quite severe blows to the head. His concussions are down to bad luck and his personal biology, not playing at senior level from a relatively young age.

Stuart Olding's injuries could have happened in an AIL game or an U20 game. The fact that they happened playing for the Ravenspans in the last minute of injury time and the first minute of an Ulster game are purely coincidental. It had nothing to do with his age imo. Are we saying that players become less susceptible to injury as they get older. That would fly in the face of the facts and experience. All of us who have stopped playing remember how as we got older, no matter how hard we tried to keep fit, that injuries increase, collagen becomes less forgiving, ligaments and tendons twange and twinge and tear more easily etc. When we were young, things healed more easily and quickly. I understand that it would usually be mad to throw an 18 year old in to the front row. (The only one I can remember was Frederico Mendez)

I actually think that some players are bulking up too much to the detriment of their well being but that is a different story.

It has always been claimed that rugby - at least in the amateur game - is a game for all shapes and sizes. This is becoming less so at the top end and more and more at the higher end of the amateur game. Guys like Keith Crossan, Alan Clarke, Iain McLauchlin, Fergus Slattery would be very unlikely to get a game. Stu. McCloskey and Chris Farrell are probably bigger or at least more muscular than WJ McBride was when he was first capped - at 6'5" and 15 and a half stones. There was a time when BOD at 5'10" weighed in at the same.

I think some guys are lucky and some are notwhen it comes to injury.

.ak · 12-08-2015 9:44am

total former wrote: »

It's not just an Ulster problem. Leinster fast-tracked Conway and Macken with terrible results. Munster gave Nagle a pro contract on the back of one game and an alleged offer from Northampton, that was a shocking call too. Go back even earlier to Luke Fitz, a Leinster regular at the age of 19.

People often complain we're too slow to give youth a chance but the recent history might make you think otherwise.

It's an interesting point.

To balance the argument, is there any guys that were fast tracked that have been doing well and been mostly injury free?

total former · 12-08-2015 11:28am

.ak wrote: »

It's an interesting point.

To balance the argument, is there any guys that were fast tracked that have been doing well and been mostly injury free?

None spring to mind really. Marmion?

smiley_face · 12-08-2015 2:21pm

.ak wrote: »

It's an interesting point.

To balance the argument, is there any guys that were fast tracked that have been doing well and been mostly injury free?

Would Peter O'Mahony count, even though not a back?

shuffol · 12-08-2015 2:47pm

Gilroy

bilston · 12-08-2015 5:55pm

shuffol wrote: »

Gilroy

Gilroy had a hamstring problems a year or so ago but that can happen to any winger or outside back at anytime. Remember BOD had a real hammy problems when he was about 27/28.

Jaco makes a great point about Olding, his first ACL injury was playing for the Ravens, the second happened in a fairly innocous incident at the start of the game against Cardiff. A lot of these injuries could happen to anyone at anytime. Put another it isn't just the young players getting injured.

Touch wood but am I right in thinking Henshaw has remained relatively injury free up to now?

Other than Henshaw has any of the current Ireland 1st XV been injury free in the last 2 or 3 years?

bessiem8 · 12-08-2015 6:17pm

bilston wrote: »

Gilroy had a hamstring problems a year or so ago but that can happen to any winger or outside back at anytime. Remember BOD had a real hammy problems when he was about 27/28.

Jaco makes a great point about Olding, his first ACL injury was playing for the Ravens, the second happened in a fairly innocous incident at the start of the game against Cardiff. A lot of these injuries could happen to anyone at anytime. Put another it isn't just the young players getting injured.

Touch wood but am I right in thinking Henshaw has remained relatively injury free up to now?

Other than Henshaw has any of the current Ireland 1st XV been injury free in the last 2 or 3 years?

Toner.

Olding/Farrell both debuted at 18 and both had severe ACL problems. Both are very different size wise. Most of the 1st XV all debuted very early in the careers.

12-08-2015 6:25pm

Heaslip too. Freakishly so.

Rugby is an attritional game though. Players get hurt.

Tox56 · 12-08-2015 6:28pm

Healy came through very young and did well with injuries for a long time. Not doing so well now but that could be down to any number of other things

bilston · 12-08-2015 7:37pm

Tox56 wrote: »

Healy came through very young and did well with injuries for a long time. Not doing so well now but that could be down to any number of other things

Healy's problems seem to have started on the Lions tour.

Sometimes one injury can lead to others because players over compensate with their rehab.

shuffol · 13-08-2015 1:18pm

bilston wrote: »

Gilroy had a hamstring problems a year or so ago but that can happen to any winger or outside back at anytime. Remember BOD had a real hammy problems when he was about 27/28.

Gilroy has played 107 times for Ulster at the age of 24. That's some going.

bilston · 13-08-2015 4:21pm

shuffol wrote: »

Gilroy has played 107 times for Ulster at the age of 24. That's some going.

Especially when he hasn't even been first choice for a lot of that time. If he stays at Ulster for life and injures aren't too unkind to him then he will probably reach 300 caps.

jacothelad · 13-08-2015 5:05pm

bilston wrote: »

Especially when he hasn't even been first choice for a lot of that time. If he stays at Ulster for life and injures aren't too unkind to him then he will probably reach 300 caps.

Sadly for Gilroy he has yet to master the ability to not score tries in an international class way. If only he would stop scoring his career might take an upward turn.......:D:D:D

awec · 13-08-2015 5:16pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Sadly for Gilroy he has yet to master the ability to not score tries in an international class way. If only he would stop scoring his career might take an upward turn.......:D:D:D

Gilroy scored the same number of tries last season as Luke Fitzgerald has scored in the past 5 seasons added together.

In that time Fitzgerald has made 76 Leinster appearances and Gilroy has been named in 96 Ulster squads (can't figure out his actual appearances cause the new Ulster site sucks and the pro12 site excludes europe).

Interesting stat.

jacothelad · 13-08-2015 6:22pm

awec wrote: »

Gilroy scored the same number of tries last season as Luke Fitzgerald has scored in the past 5 seasons added together.

In that time Fitzgerald has made 76 Leinster appearances and Gilroy has been named in 96 Ulster squads (can't figure out his actual appearances cause the new Ulster site sucks and the pro12 site excludes europe).

Interesting stat.

Time for a bit of a wind up.
Yes but Luke doesn't score beautifully so it doesn't matter in his case. He does all the other things a winger is supposed to do so well that not scoring is a sort of a bonus.:D:D:D:D Anyway, we know he can score. Didn't he get 3 of those 13 tries in one game v. Saints and he has scored a try against Zebre this season in his 17 games and 2 against them last season. In fact 4 of his 13 have come against them. They must hate him. Still, he can also fail to score as a 13 so he's consistent.....;);) Poor old Darren Cave blotted his copybook this season by scoring 8 tries. If only he could not score in a more attractive manner. He also scored 5 last season. There's that dratted 13 number again. He'll have to stop if he wants to get anywhere.

This is all very unfair. It's not as if old slowcoach Cave has been playing in Europe's top team for the last 5 years.
There's more to rugby than scoring........isn't there?????

.ak · 13-08-2015 6:22pm

True, and Gilroy has never lost to the All Blacks.

Now that's an interesting stat.

jacothelad · 13-08-2015 6:23pm

.ak wrote: »

True, and Gilroy has never lost to the All Blacks.

Now that's an interesting stat.

Or had Wales score 3 tries after he was subbed off....:D:D

.ak · 13-08-2015 6:25pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Time for a bit of a wind up.
Yes but Luke doesn't score beautifully so it doesn't matter in his case. He does all the other things a winger is supposed to do so well that not scoring is a sort of a bonus.:D:D:D:D Anyway, we know he can score. Didn't he get 3 of those 13 tries in one game v. Saints and he has scored a try against Zebre this season in his 17 games and 2 against them last season. In fact 4 of his 13 have come against them. They must hate him. Still, he can also fail to score as a 13 so he's consistent.....;);) Poor old Darren Cave blotted his copybook this season by scoring 8 tries. If only he could not score in a more attractive manner. He also scored 5 last season. There's that dratted 13 number again. He'll have to stop if he wants to get anywhere.

This is all very unfair. It's not as if old slowcoach Cave has been playing in Europe's top team for the last 5 years.
There's more to rugby than scoring........isn't there?????

jacothelad · 13-08-2015 6:26pm

.ak wrote: »

:D:D:D

jm08 · 13-08-2015 6:27pm

awec wrote: »

Gilroy scored the same number of tries last season as Luke Fitzgerald has scored in the past 5 seasons added together.

In that time Fitzgerald has made 76 Leinster appearances and Gilroy has been named in 96 Ulster squads (can't figure out his actual appearances cause the new Ulster site sucks and the pro12 site excludes europe).

Interesting stat.

Gilroy's stats for last 5 seasons for Ulster in both comps.

107 games (91 starts), 27 tries, 2 Yellow cards.

edit: it should be 33 tries. I left out 6 European ones.

A useful website here
http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-22231.html

bilston · 13-08-2015 6:29pm

jm08 wrote: »

Gilroy's stats for last 5 seasons for Ulster in both comps.

107 games (91 starts), 27 tries, 2 Yellow cards.

A useful website here
http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-22231.html

What! You mean to say he has no red cards to his name! And he calls himself an Ulsterman!!

Edit - And don't think I don't know your game with that link jm08!!! Subtle

jacothelad · 13-08-2015 6:30pm

jm08 wrote: »

Gilroy's stats for last 5 seasons for Ulster in both comps.

107 games (91 starts), 27 tries, 2 Yellow cards.

A useful website here
http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player-22231.html

That's a good site. Plenty of info.

jm08 · 13-08-2015 6:41pm

bilston wrote: »

What! You mean to say he has no red cards to his name! And he calls himself an Ulsterman!!

Edit - And don't think I don't know your game with that link jm08!!! Subtle

Definately something wrong that he doesn't have a RC!

14-08-2015 9:39am

Mike McCormish scored more tries v Toulon than Sean O'Brien.

Time to get him in the Ireland squad!

awec · 14-08-2015 2:10pm

The Euro fixtures have been confirmed. Back to back game against Toulouse.

Round 1:
Oyonnax v Ulster, Saturday 14th November, 14:00, Stade Charles Mathon

Round 2:
Ulster v Saracens, Friday 20th November, 19:45, Kingspan Stadium

Round 3:
Ulster v Toulouse, Friday 11th December, 19:45, Kingspan Stadium

Round 4:
Toulouse v Ulster, Sunday 20th December, 14:00, Stade Ernest Wallon

Round 5:
Saracens v Ulster, 15/16/17 January, Allianz Park

Round 6:
Ulster v Oyonnax, 22/23/24 January, Kingspan Stadium

Ulster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

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