Energy infrastructure

02-12-2020 8:20pm

A very interesting read here: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? And what can we do to use this global opportunity for green growth?

It shows why, as an investor, one would find it difficult to turn a profit on any energy sources that are not renewable.

If you do nothing else, take a look at the 4 main graphs on that page. It pretty much explains why there's even folks looking to install solar farms in the west of ireland

Apogee · 02-12-2020 11:34pm

Irish Times wrote:

Oil could flow from the Barryroe field off the Cork coast within three years after Providence Resources signed a development deal with Norwegian consortium Spoton on Monday. Barryroe could yield 350 million barrels of oil, enough to supply all the Republic’s needs for almost a decade at current consumption, along with a significant amount of natural gas. Providence confirmed on Monday that following months of talks it has signed a partnership, known as a farm-out agreement, with a consortium led by Spoton to develop the field.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/oil-could-flow-from-barryroe-within-three-years-1.4423686

Banana Republic 1 · 03-12-2020 9:07am

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/oil-could-flow-from-barryroe-within-three-years-1.4423686

That would be grand if we kept the money and did a Norway but deals will be done and envelopes delivered so the profits will vanish abroad along with the majority of the energy.

josip · 03-12-2020 10:47am

When it says "all of Ireland's needs" does that include everything from bunker fuel to kerosene?
Would Barryroe oil be refined in Whitegate?
I assume that we'd continue to import some oil products during Barryroe's lifetime and that the 10 year needs angle is only included in the article to give an idea of the size of the field?

L1011 · 03-12-2020 10:49am

Whitegate hasn't got the capacity to refine all our needs anyway

ted1 · 03-12-2020 10:55am

tom1ie wrote: »

But esb allow fit for commercial customers, so wouldn’t a bio farm come under the commercial 3rd party connection setup?
I don’t understand how a bio farm (in effect a generator) would not be allowed to connect to the grid once they meet the required spec.

what size biofarm?

what would the bio be?

could by many reasons why. the first thing to do is to look at the size you want connected.

ted1 · 03-12-2020 11:03am

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Well the word I used gave the wrong impression perhaps but essentially its a process involving anaerobic bacteria breaking down animal waste, slurry, and or other materials, eg straw, into two parts methane gas and sludge. The methane gas powers an electrical generator, the same as natural gas, and the electricity is then fed to the grid.

The benefits: Amongst other things animal waste is renewable
The Negatives: If plant material is the only thing used land that would otherwise be used for food production is taken out of the system.

what you are talking about is an Anerobic Digester

Isn't there an issue where animals in Ireland are grazed in fields and the energy to collect their waste is greater then the energy from the waste.

some trials have been conducted in Ireland with farms and the results were not good.

here's one, that basically uses the brown bins:

https://www.bitc.ie/newsroom/members-news/meet-energias-new-anaerobic-digester-bioenergy-plant/

richie123 · 03-12-2020 11:50am

ted1 wrote: »

what you are talking about is an Anerobic Digester

Isn't there an issue where animals in Ireland are grazed in fields and the energy to collect their waste is greater then the energy from the waste.

some trials have been conducted in Ireland with farms and the results were not good.

here's one, that basically uses the brown bins:

https://www.bitc.ie/newsroom/members-news/meet-energias-new-anaerobic-digester-bioenergy-plant/

That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

riddlinrussell · 03-12-2020 11:53am

richie123 wrote: »

That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

Are you suggesting that Wind Turbines/Solar still need subsidy? Both are mature and are beating Non-Renewables hand over fist even with Non-Renewables receiving subsidies in many cases. The only thing really keeping Non-Renewables in the game at all at this stage is lack of guaranteed base load.

ted1 · 03-12-2020 12:05pm

richie123 wrote: »

That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

If a technology cant stand on its own feet then why should it be subsidised.

Big companies provide Economies of scale, the state shouldn't be supporting your pet project.

If you want a ROI I suggest you invest in green fund.

https://www.bvp.ie/eii-scheme/eii-tax-relief-scheme-fund/

ted1 · 03-12-2020 12:12pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

The only thing really keeping Non-Renewables in the game at all at this stage is lack of guaranteed base load.

that and Ramp rates, Ancillary services, spinning reserve. DROP ACE, inertia and so on.

riddlinrussell · 03-12-2020 12:25pm

ted1 wrote: »

that and Ramp rates, Ancillary services, spinning reserve. DROP ACE, inertia and so on.

Most of those fall under 'backup to the main energy generation method', apologies I kind of rolled them all into 'guaranteed base load'

Subsidies do make sense in certain areas, early on in wind and solar they were vital to get adoption up and encourage the technology to become more efficient, and its paid off.

Home Heating Efficiency subsidies are another place, absolutely vital to get this done, uptake will be slow without them but the long term benefits for the state are lower energy requirements, fewer people in fuel poverty, reduced risk of fines for failing our energy commitments with the EU, and more people who can afford to spend outside of essentials because they aren't pouring all their money into heating a leaky house.

Banana Republic 1 · 03-12-2020 12:35pm

ted1 wrote: »

If a technology cant stand on its own feet then why should it be subsidised.

Big companies provide Economies of scale, the state shouldn't be supporting your pet project.

If you want a ROI I suggest you invest in green fund.

https://www.bvp.ie/eii-scheme/eii-tax-relief-scheme-fund/

We were subsidising turf burning for years.

ted1 · 03-12-2020 1:24pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

We were subsidising turf burning for years.

That’s for Energy Security. And it’s been stopped.
It’s also for mass generation that was dispatched by the TSO and Market Operator. Very different than a farmers pet project being subsided

tom1ie · 03-12-2020 1:51pm

ted1 wrote: »

what size biofarm?

what would the bio be?

could by many reasons why. the first thing to do is to look at the size you want connected.

My post you quoted was a response to another poster saying esb don’t allow bio farm connections.
I was asking why.

Banana Republic 1 · 03-12-2020 2:03pm

ted1 wrote: »

That’s for Energy Security. And it’s been stopped.
It’s also for mass generation that was dispatched by the TSO and Market Operator. Very different than a farmers pet project being subsided

Quote:
Originally Posted by richie123 View Post
That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

If a technology cant stand on its own feet then why should it be subsidised.

I understood from this that you were heaping solar and turbines into the "shouldn't get subsidies" basket.

richie123 · 03-12-2020 3:28pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Wind Turbines/Solar still need subsidy? Both are mature and are beating Non-Renewables hand over fist even with Non-Renewables receiving subsidies in many cases. The only thing really keeping Non-Renewables in the game at all at this stage is lack of guaranteed base load.

The recent auctions for solar were somewhere around 60 70 euro a mw
The states pays them that money.
I stand to be corrected on the figures if they're incorrect

richie123 · 03-12-2020 3:32pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

We were subsidising turf burning for years.

That's true that was wrong also..Shannon bridge upgraded in the early noughties going be closed now.bull****
The money wasted by this country is criminal
Millions wasted

Banana Republic 1 · 03-12-2020 4:33pm

richie123 wrote: »

That's true that was wrong also..Shannon bridge upgraded in the early noughties going be closed now.bull****
The money wasted by this country is criminal
Millions wasted

Well if the earlier thread is true providence has struck oil in barryroe so I sense another flight of the earls coming and by earls I mean energy and profit al a shell to sea.

gjim · 03-12-2020 5:33pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

That would be grand if we kept the money and did a Norway but deals will be done and envelopes delivered so the profits will vanish abroad along with the majority of the energy.

The delivery of envelopes decides Irish energy policy? Isn't there a conspiracy theories forum for this type of nonsense?

gjim · 03-12-2020 5:44pm

richie123 wrote: »

The recent auctions for solar were somewhere around 60 70 euro a mw
The states pays them that money.
I stand to be corrected on the figures if they're incorrect

I presume you mean MWh? So 6 or 7 cent per KWh? That doesn't seem exorbitant? Wholesale rates in Ireland are 14 cent per KWh and domestic rates well over 20c. It's a lot higher than the auction I read about in Dubai a year ago which was under 3c/KWh but that wouldn't be shocking given the differences in climate.

bk · 03-12-2020 5:49pm

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/oil-could-flow-from-barryroe-within-three-years-1.4423686

Well if this pans out on the natural gas side, looks like we won't be needing those three LNG import facilities at all and they can be scrapped.

On the comments about making money from Oil. The days of earning large amounts of money from oil are well over. Oil barrel prices are well down and while they will probably increase slightly post Covid, medium to long term demand is only going down as EV's and renewables continue to pick up.

Banana Republic 1 · 03-12-2020 6:33pm

bk wrote: »

Well if this pans out on the natural gas side, looks like we won't be needing those three LNG import facilities at all and they can be scrapped.

On the comments about making money from Oil. The days of earning large amounts of money from oil are well over. Oil barrel prices are well down and while they will probably increase slightly post Covid, medium to long term demand is only going down as EV's and renewables continue to pick up.

I wonder what the cost per barrel out of barryroe is said to be

richie123 · 03-12-2020 9:45pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

I wonder what the cost per barrel out of barryroe is said to be

Will it make any money at all even with pickup in price over the next year ...

Capt'n Midnight · 05-12-2020 1:27pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Wind Turbines/Solar still need subsidy? Both are mature and are beating Non-Renewables hand over fist even with Non-Renewables receiving subsidies in many cases. The only thing really keeping Non-Renewables in the game at all at this stage is lack of guaranteed base load.

And subsidies, lots of subsidies. Just look up fossil fuel subsidies.

Nuclear is getting even greater subsidies. Especially when you consider that decommissioning and insurance costs aren't properly covered.

The cost of spinning reserve is determined by the largest generator that could possible fail. On grids with nuclear power guess who the largest generator is ??

Hinkley C is getting twice the market rate for baseload. Zero carbon sounds good but you could get similar reduction by replacing coal with gas. Especially old coal stations. And you need something like gas to load balance nuclear. Moneypoint coal used dropped 70% last year.

Low energy light bulbs have reduced electricity demand by more than nuclear provides. That's where it falls in the grand scheme of things. And because approval and construction time is so long it's % contribution to overall supply is falling over time.

Capt'n Midnight · 05-12-2020 1:42pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Are you suggesting that Wind Turbines/Solar still need subsidy? Both are mature and are beating Non-Renewables hand over fist even with Non-Renewables receiving subsidies in many cases. The only thing really keeping Non-Renewables in the game at all at this stage is lack of guaranteed base load.

There is no question that if there was cheap long term energy storage then renewables win.

05-12-2020 3:59pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There is no question that if there was cheap long term energy storage then renewables win.

In terms of renewable energy storage solutions, I think over the next decade, as more investment is made, we are going to see co-location of power plants / generator sites with green hydrogen.

Where its located with power plants, there will likely be turbines to consume the hydrogen directly, so when its night, and the wind is low, there's a third source to dip into.

California & Texas are already running into issues where the amount of power they are generating can not be consumed so they are looking at ways of consuming it/storing it in an way that doesn't involve batteries. This is one method with the last coal burning plant in California being switched over to 70/30 mix of gas/hydrogen by 2025. The hydrogen will be stored nearby in underground salt caverns.

Interesting video on it here. Caveat; lots of vested interest/biased speak in it though

Hydrogen will definitely grow in prominence and importance over the next decade as more industries look to switch away from carbon emitting to zero emissions. For the likes of the shipping industry,

Capt'n Midnight · 05-12-2020 4:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Hydrogen will definitely grow in prominence and importance over the next decade as more industries look to switch away from carbon emitting to zero emissions. For the likes of the shipping industry,

I can't see shipping using Hydrogen. It's a very bulky fuel.

For thermal engines we rely on hydrogen already. Hydrocarbons are just a very handy way to store hydrogen. There's talk of using Ammonia as a fuel on large vessels.

The process of making ammonia uses about 1% of global energy consumption so the basics are understood. It's like natural gas except nitrogen instead of carbon. It's easier to store too. It's just a wee bit toxic (as in kill everything within a quarter mile, including grass) . And it's only an inefficient energy store.

But with renewables the cost of energy tends to zero so efficiency isn't that critical compared to the cost of storing.

05-12-2020 5:31pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I can't see shipping using Hydrogen. It's a very bulky fuel.

Maybe, I guess time will tell. Same as with a lot of this stuff, there's a bunch of trials ongoing.

But they will not be able to continue using the fuel they are using. Its literally the worst type of crap oil and they are pumping out a billion tonnes of carbon a year. Its simply filthy and they will soon have the decision taken out of their hands I think. They had the opportunity recently to drive the change themselves and ended up setting a farcical goal. So much so that most of the industry complained and said they would set their own internal, higher targets for emission reduction.

It was also a few days after the EU Parliament voted to include maritime CO2 emissions in the EU carbon market from 2022, following criticism that shipping is the only sector to not face emissions reduction targets. The decision will force shipowners to buy carbon permits to cover emissions during voyages in Europe or international voyages which start or finish at a European port

However, if it makes sense from an economic POV, the shipping companies will make the change themselves, regardless of any other factors. Their margins are tiny and they do anything to maintain them for example reducing the average speed of all vessels back in 2009 to save on fuel costs and they have kept this since then. This year they are scrapping a lot, and I mean a LOT, of vessels as the price of iron has gone mental.

Its the same with haulage firms. The fuel type will be driven by margins.

The only exception to this is where legislation forces a change and I foresee the EU playing an even greater role in forcing the shipping industry to improve.

Markcheese · 06-12-2020 11:22am

What happens to the heavy distilate residues if they're not used for fuel for ships , are they likely to end up being burnt elsewhere ? I'm guessing they're pretty toxic so can't be just stored somewhere ...

08-12-2020 7:00pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

That would be grand if we kept the money and did a Norway but deals will be done and envelopes delivered so the profits will vanish abroad along with the majority of the energy.

Would you prefer if the Irish Government carried the losses for the costs of exploration? Have a dedicated branch of the civil service out drilling bore holes? Would have to be 9-5 mind with Flextime thrown in

Apogee · 09-12-2020 7:29pm

Apogee wrote: »

Missed this back in November about a new 500MW interconnector going for planning.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/project-to-connect-electricity-grids-in-ireland-and-wales-submits-plans-1.4079609
https://www.greenlink.ie/

Irish Examiner wrote:

A planning application is to be submitted to An Bord Pleanála this week for permission for the Irish side of a €450m grid-connector with the UK. The project, named Greenlink, is a privately funded interconnector which would see a 190km grid connection placed between the Wexford and Wales coastlines. The interconnector would have a nominal capacity of 500 megawatts, equivalent to powering in the region of 380,000 homes. The planning application will be made under Strategic Infrastructure Development rules meaning it can be made directly to ABP rather than having to first submit to the relevant local authority.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40186605.html

Banana Republic 1 · 09-12-2020 8:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In terms of renewable energy storage solutions, I think over the next decade, as more investment is made, we are going to see co-location of power plants / generator sites with green hydrogen.

Where its located with power plants, there will likely be turbines to consume the hydrogen directly, so when its night, and the wind is low, there's a third source to dip into.

California & Texas are already running into issues where the amount of power they are generating can not be consumed so they are looking at ways of consuming it/storing it in an way that doesn't involve batteries. This is one method with the last coal burning plant in California being switched over to 70/30 mix of gas/hydrogen by 2025. The hydrogen will be stored nearby in underground salt caverns.

Interesting video on it here. Caveat; lots of vested interest/biased speak in it though

Hydrogen will definitely grow in prominence and importance over the next decade as more industries look to switch away from carbon emitting to zero emissions. For the likes of the shipping industry,

There is a trial in Scotland of Hydrogen home heating boilers. I thing there also talk of putting 10 to 20% hydrogen gas into normal gas boilers.

Sam Russell · 09-12-2020 10:29pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

There is a trial in Scotland of Hydrogen home heating boilers. I thing there also talk of putting 10 to 20% hydrogen gas into normal gas boilers.

What do they do with the oxygen?

tom1ie · 10-12-2020 12:00am

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40186605.html

Wonder what sort of impact brexit will have on the interconnectors we have with the uk?
Kinda makes the Celtic interconnector all the more important.

bk · 10-12-2020 10:51am

tom1ie wrote: »

Wonder what sort of impact brexit will have on the interconnectors we have with the uk?
Kinda makes the Celtic interconnector all the more important.

The UK are desperate to stay part of the IEM (Internal Energy Market) as they are a net importer of energy from the EU and would be in serious trouble keeping the lights on without these interconnectors.

Under a trade deal with the UK, there would be little or no change to ho the interconnectors are operated, they all remain under IEM.

If there is a hard Brexit, then it becomes more difficult, they can still be used, but energy trading needs to be done outside of the IEM, which would likely drive up energy costs.

richie123 · 11-12-2020 11:29am

Esb warning of future supply shocks and shortages today.
All we need now is a prolonged cold spell and all the hundreds of millions invested in turbines producing little to nothing will be enlightening.
Shannon bridge closed today.
Not 15 years built and it's closed.
absolute maddness.
Timeline was too quick should have ran another 5 year at the least.

roadmaster · 11-12-2020 12:08pm

The problem is they only supply 3% of the power. But your right it is madness shutting them down, i believe lansebourgh is going next week as well. I wonder why they haven't considered converting them to biomass. There was also an amber alert yesterday with 3 power stations having issues and wind generation dropped of a cliff apparently

Sam Russell · 11-12-2020 12:12pm

roadmaster wrote: »

The problem is they only supply 3% of the power. But your right it is madness shutting them down, i believe lansebourgh is going next week as well. I wonder why they haven't considered converting them to biomass

Where would the biomass come from?

They would need a lot of it, and it would be uneconomic if it was not local. Think of trucking all that stuff from the ports if it needed importing.

roadmaster · 11-12-2020 12:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Where would the biomass come from?

They would need a lot of it, and it would be uneconomic if it was not local. Think of trucking all that stuff from the ports if it needed importing.

We start growing it and give the farmers a guarantee price so they will commit

richie123 · 11-12-2020 3:15pm

roadmaster wrote: »

We start growing it and give the farmers a guarantee price so they will commit

Planning failed to convert to biomass because of the huge quantities needed would have required imported product which obviously was completely out of the question.
I wonder was the option of converting to gas turbines considered does anyone know ?

Banana Republic 1 · 11-12-2020 3:34pm

roadmaster wrote: »

We start growing it and give the farmers a guarantee price so they will commit

The problem with that is farmers like everyone follow the money and land is then used to grow stuff for these plants reducing the usage for food.

In Germany many family farms are being bought up by corporates who also want to cash in, if that happened in Ireland then society would be changed.

Sam Russell · 11-12-2020 3:55pm

richie123 wrote: »

Planning failed to convert to biomass because of the huge quantities needed would have required imported product which obviously was completely out of the question.
I wonder was the option of converting to gas turbines considered does anyone know ?

The turbines are not close to the gas pipes. Small problem.

richie123 · 11-12-2020 10:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The turbines are not close to the gas pipes. Small problem.

Ah I see there always a simple explanation.

Pete_Cavan · 11-12-2020 11:08pm

Given the turf plants are located beside cut away bogs, could they grow short rotation coppice or the like there? I'm sure there wouldn't be enough to sustain a plant on a constant basis but they could stockpile it and only fire up the plant for a few months over winter each year.

Probably not economical to do so but surely it is a decent solution to hold us over for a short time for a few years given the plants are already there. Growing the coppice offsets some of the carbon too.

tabby aspreme · 11-12-2020 11:24pm

Farmers will be slow to plant biomass in the future, unless there is a solid price guarantee for it, as currently the market for biomass is very unstable, despite all the hype when it was first introduced as a viable alternative crop.

medoc · 11-12-2020 11:42pm

As part of the original planning permission the plants gave to be demolished soon after closure. Hopefully sense prevails and they alter that permission to allow time to see what alternative uses might be possible on site. The days of peat there are gone but who knows what uses might be possible. It has a turbine, cooling equipment, control equipment, transformers and grid connections ready to go which might have uses. Gas is in Athlone, Tullamore or Ballinasloe. Edenderry have plans to go 100% biomas in 2024 if they secure planning permission. It’s already over 50% co fired.

12-12-2020 2:28am

medoc wrote: »

Hopefully sense prevails and they alter that permission to allow time to see what alternative uses might be possible on site.

Unlikely to be any change to the plans. These plants make no sense anymore no matter which heading you assess them under.

Interconnectors and renewables, with a small amount of gas thrown in for the short term. That's it. With the way costs for renewable (solar/wind) production have dropped off a cliff, I don't see any long term investment in anything that is not an interconnector or associated with renewable (production and/or storage).

richie123 · 12-12-2020 10:09am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Unlikely to be any change to the plans. These plants make no sense anymore no matter which heading you assess them under.

Interconnectors and renewables, with a small amount of gas thrown in for the short term. That's it. With the way costs for renewable (solar/wind) production have dropped off a cliff, I don't see any long term investment in anything that is not an interconnector or associated with renewable (production and/or storage).

Interconnector?? So now we're depended on the British and french for our power supply.
This will end in disaster.
Renewables as a solution ?
Completely disagree.
I've said it already and I'll say it again
We could double our wind output in the morning
And if we get a cold shock for a period of weeks over the European area like we did in 2010 we well have outages like never seen before.
Eirgrid has warned about this only just yesterday.
Never a good idea to depend on anyone else for something as important as an electricity supply!!

Sam Russell · 12-12-2020 12:22pm

richie123 wrote: »

Interconnector?? So now we're depended on the British and french for our power supply.
This will end in disaster.
Renewables as a solution ?
Completely disagree.
I've said it already and I'll say it again
We could double our wind output in the morning
And if we get a cold shock for a period of weeks over the European area like we did in 2010 we well have outages like never seen before.
Eirgrid has warned about this only just yesterday.
Never a good idea to depend on anyone else for something as important as an electricity supply!!

There is a third solution.

If there was a feed-in tariff, plus smart meters, Eirgrid could reduce demand through the smart meters turning off unnecessary demand during tight supply times. With the feed-in tariff, small generators such as PV arrays, or biogas powered generators, and the use of EV batteries to feed power back into the grid.

Now if EV vehicles are 50% of the stock of vehicles, then that is a lot of stored energy. Remember, not all EVs are domestic cars. Now the take up of EVs will increase in the next 5 years, but will not reach 50% within a decade, but still.

The big problem is the closing down of nuclear plant in Europe as it ages out and is not replaced. The UK will be out of nuclear in a decade if they continue to upset the Chinese.

Of course, we could insulate our houses better and use public transport and bikes more.

Energy infrastructure

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