Energy infrastructure

Apogee · 19-11-2020 8:43pm

At the risk of dragging this thread away from nuclear reactors and back to the mundane realities of energy infrastructure in Ireland...

Irish Times wrote:

A group of landowners has launched a new legal bid to block a major cross-Border electricity line. Papers lodged at the High Court in Belfast challenge the lawfulness of Northern Infrastructure Minister Nichola Mallon’s decision to approve the North-South Interconnector. In September she granted planning permission for the 400kv overhead electricity line which is to stretch from Co Tyrone to Co Meath. But campaign group Safe Electricity Armagh and Tyrone (SEAT) has branded it a “vanity project”.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/landowners-in-fresh-bid-to-block-major-cross-border-electricity-line-1.4413925

tom1ie · 19-11-2020 8:55pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Not necessarily as many crops are chopped using silage harvester which effectively mulch the entire crop. Even sugar beat is often just put into these things and are not processed for its sugar content. In the end profit is king and people don’t alway do the morale thing, think of cash for ash. there are many pros and cons and angles.

If Irish farmers had a the ability to connect bio plants to the network they could supplement there income and also eliminate some of the problems they have with excess nitrogen in groundwater and such but there are risks for example German family farms are being bought up left and right by big companies that are in it for pure profit.

Why are the esb refusing connection to the grid?

Markcheese · 19-11-2020 9:06pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

This doesn't really address my issue though, the silage produced would, in this case then be put into a bio-energy plant to generate electricity, so I don't see why not having animal waste as a component would be an issue?

You're right animals aren't needed in the loop... And in most commercial bio-gas set ups they're not the main feed stock , it's usually maize,that's stored in huge silage pits , but other things do get chucked in too ..
Scale is important , the bigger the scale , the more money made , but the more distance the feedstock has to travel in ,and the digestate out ...
So if you're not using a waste product on location the energy in / energy out gets all skewed ..
As in: I'll subsidize this farmer to grow a crop , then I'll subsidize a contractor to haul it to a depot , then I'll subsidize the storage of that crop ,now in a subsidized factory I'll ferment the maize , burn the gas make electricity which I'll sell to the grid for way more per kwh than say a regular fossil fuel gas plant ,. Oh and transport the digestate back to the farm ..
Actually , if you add the fertilizer , and the diesel for cultivation ,harvesting ,and transportation, plus the electricity ect for the plant it'd probably just be more efficient to burn the diesel and pay the farmer ☺️

Banana Republic 1 · 19-11-2020 9:44pm

Markcheese wrote: »

You're right animals aren't needed in the loop... And in most commercial bio-gas set ups they're not the main feed stock , it's usually maize,that's stored in huge silage pits , but other things do get chucked in too ..
Scale is important , the bigger the scale , the more money made , but the more distance the feedstock has to travel in ,and the digestate out ...
So if you're not using a waste product on location the energy in / energy out gets all skewed ..
As in: I'll subsidize this farmer to grow a crop , then I'll subsidize a contractor to haul it to a depot , then I'll subsidize the storage of that crop ,now in a subsidized factory I'll ferment the maize , burn the gas make electricity which I'll sell to the grid for way more per kwh than say a regular fossil fuel gas plant ,. Oh and transport the digestate back to the farm ..
Actually , if you add the fertilizer , and the diesel for cultivation ,harvesting ,and transportation, plus the electricity ect for the plant it'd probably just be more efficient to burn the diesel and pay the farmer ☺️

Which is why large scale bio gas plants are not appropriate. However to supplement a traditional farm would be.

Banana Republic 1 · 19-11-2020 9:51pm

Apogee wrote: »

At the risk of dragging this thread away from nuclear reactors and back to the mundane realities of energy infrastructure in Ireland...

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/landowners-in-fresh-bid-to-block-major-cross-border-electricity-line-1.4413925

NIMBYism is rife in Ireland examine look at any emf spectrum chart and you will see there more radiation from a toaster.

https://www.pngkey.com/png/full/556-5567553_color-spectrum-graphic-cell-phone-radiation.png

Sam Russell · 19-11-2020 10:23pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

NIMBYism is rife in Ireland examine this graph.
http://https://www.pngkey.com/png/full/556-5567553_color-spectrum-graphic-cell-phone-radiation.png

Link not working

Banana Republic 1 · 19-11-2020 10:38pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Link not working

Ya I’ve tried to fix it google emf spectrum charts and there’s loads of examples

marno21 · 19-11-2020 11:07pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Ya I’ve tried to fix it google emf spectrum charts and there’s loads of examples

I have it fixed the : was missing from the https://

tom1ie · 20-11-2020 7:33am

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Which is why large scale bio gas plants are not appropriate. However to supplement a traditional farm would be.

How come esb won’t connect bio farms to the grid? Are there technical infrastructure limitations for example?

riddlinrussell · 20-11-2020 10:43am

tom1ie wrote: »

How come esb won’t connect bio farms to the grid? Are there technical infrastructure limitations for example?

Pure Speculation, but if they put in place a feed in payment for farmers with bio plants they will likely also have to do so for domestic solar etc, and they quite like getting free power off people?

tom1ie · 20-11-2020 10:48am

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Pure Speculation, but if they put in place a feed in payment for farmers with bio plants they will likely also have to do so for domestic solar etc, and they quite like getting free power off people?

But esb allow fit for commercial customers, so wouldn’t a bio farm come under the commercial 3rd party connection setup?
I don’t understand how a bio farm (in effect a generator) would not be allowed to connect to the grid once they meet the required spec.

richie123 · 21-11-2020 8:07pm

tom1ie wrote: »

But esb allow fit for commercial customers, so wouldn’t a bio farm come under the commercial 3rd party connection setup?
I don’t understand how a bio farm (in effect a generator) would not be allowed to connect to the grid once they meet the required spec.

I've being looking for an answer to this question for a long time.when is the esb monopoly going to be broke up ?as long as the esb are left in control micro generation will never take off.its an absolute disgrace

Markcheese · 22-11-2020 9:06pm

tom1ie wrote: »

But esb allow fit for commercial customers, so wouldn’t a bio farm come under the commercial 3rd party connection setup?
I don’t understand how a bio farm (in effect a generator) would not be allowed to connect to the grid once they meet the required spec.

As far as I know, it's not just the connection, it's the price paid for the electricity , say they offer the same amount as for a major gas station , then it's just not worth running a bio - digester ..
Most digesters that operate in uk and europe sell all their electricity at a high price but buy in what ever electricity they need to operate at a low price ..
So that'll tell you the economics are in the feed in tarriff ..

richie123 · 22-11-2020 9:39pm

Markcheese wrote: »

As far as I know, it's not just the connection, it's the price paid for the electricity , say they offer the same amount as for a major gas station , then it's just not worth running a bio - digester ..
Most digesters that operate in uk and europe sell all their electricity at a high price but buy in what ever electricity they need to operate at a low price ..
So that'll tell you the economics are in the feed in tarriff ..

Digestors are a waste of time unless heavily subsidised,thats pointless imo.

riddlinrussell · 23-11-2020 10:12am

richie123 wrote: »

Digestors are a waste of time unless heavily subsidised,thats pointless imo.

Well that kind of depends, apart from energy generation what else do the digesters do? If they directly impact on what farmers are doing with their land, reduce run-off, encourage a shift to plant crops etc, it could be worth the subsidy. That said I am not claiming it does any of that, just that there is likely more to it than just simple overpaying for energy

Apogee · 23-11-2020 11:48am

Echo wrote:

EirGrid has selected a site at Ballyadam near Carrigtwohill in East Cork on which to build a converter station for the Celtic Interconnector.The converter station is a key component of the €1 billion electricity project. The site was chosen from a shortlist of three following a range of technical studies and consultation with local communities in East Cork. In addition to the site at Ballyadam, two sites near Knockraha were consulted on as potential locations for the converter station, an industrial-type building with electrical equipment that converts direct current electricity to alternating current and vice versa. The consultation process resulted in a preference for Ballyadam as the most appropriate location for the new station given the existing and anticipated industrial and commercial activity in the area.

mainMediaSize=MEDIUM_type=image_x0=0_y0=0_x1=100_y1=100__image.jpg

https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Cork-site-chosen-for-converter-station-for-1-billion-electricity-project-799228c2-7107-4116-bb21-bbff6b45b1b6-ds

Antenna · 24-11-2020 8:39pm

Expect the preferred road route (in blue) for the underground cable above between landfall and the converter station will be highly controversial with pressure for the new greenway (and then the short distance beside current railway line) to be used instead. Already political concern expressed about significant construction disruption in Killeagh, Castlemartyr on the busy N25.

Markcheese · 24-11-2020 10:30pm

It kind of surprised me that they made landfall near youghal and then run all the way to carrigtohil for the converter station ..

richie123 · 29-11-2020 9:17pm

Wind energy was excellent today.
Near 5000 mw demand and wind supplied 58 mw of that at one stage.

Capt'n Midnight · 29-11-2020 9:35pm

richie123 wrote: »

Wind energy was excellent today.
Near 5000 mw demand and wind supplied 58 mw of that at one stage.

So what ?

Wind is forecast to be 2.2GW on tomorrow at 13:45 then drop very low by 5:30 on 1st Dec and ramp back up to 2.2GW by 17:45 on 2nd Dec. Then down again and back up to 2.3GW on Friday.

Wind is predictable nearly a week out. And on a network that's designed to to switch in additional capacity in seconds that's probably enough warning.

02-12-2020 8:20pm

A very interesting read here: Why did renewables become so cheap so fast? And what can we do to use this global opportunity for green growth?

It shows why, as an investor, one would find it difficult to turn a profit on any energy sources that are not renewable.

If you do nothing else, take a look at the 4 main graphs on that page. It pretty much explains why there's even folks looking to install solar farms in the west of ireland

Apogee · 02-12-2020 11:34pm

Irish Times wrote:

Oil could flow from the Barryroe field off the Cork coast within three years after Providence Resources signed a development deal with Norwegian consortium Spoton on Monday. Barryroe could yield 350 million barrels of oil, enough to supply all the Republic’s needs for almost a decade at current consumption, along with a significant amount of natural gas. Providence confirmed on Monday that following months of talks it has signed a partnership, known as a farm-out agreement, with a consortium led by Spoton to develop the field.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/oil-could-flow-from-barryroe-within-three-years-1.4423686

Banana Republic 1 · 03-12-2020 9:07am

Apogee wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/oil-could-flow-from-barryroe-within-three-years-1.4423686

That would be grand if we kept the money and did a Norway but deals will be done and envelopes delivered so the profits will vanish abroad along with the majority of the energy.

josip · 03-12-2020 10:47am

When it says "all of Ireland's needs" does that include everything from bunker fuel to kerosene?
Would Barryroe oil be refined in Whitegate?
I assume that we'd continue to import some oil products during Barryroe's lifetime and that the 10 year needs angle is only included in the article to give an idea of the size of the field?

L1011 · 03-12-2020 10:49am

Whitegate hasn't got the capacity to refine all our needs anyway

ted1 · 03-12-2020 10:55am

tom1ie wrote: »

But esb allow fit for commercial customers, so wouldn’t a bio farm come under the commercial 3rd party connection setup?
I don’t understand how a bio farm (in effect a generator) would not be allowed to connect to the grid once they meet the required spec.

what size biofarm?

what would the bio be?

could by many reasons why. the first thing to do is to look at the size you want connected.

ted1 · 03-12-2020 11:03am

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Well the word I used gave the wrong impression perhaps but essentially its a process involving anaerobic bacteria breaking down animal waste, slurry, and or other materials, eg straw, into two parts methane gas and sludge. The methane gas powers an electrical generator, the same as natural gas, and the electricity is then fed to the grid.

The benefits: Amongst other things animal waste is renewable
The Negatives: If plant material is the only thing used land that would otherwise be used for food production is taken out of the system.

what you are talking about is an Anerobic Digester

Isn't there an issue where animals in Ireland are grazed in fields and the energy to collect their waste is greater then the energy from the waste.

some trials have been conducted in Ireland with farms and the results were not good.

here's one, that basically uses the brown bins:

https://www.bitc.ie/newsroom/members-news/meet-energias-new-anaerobic-digester-bioenergy-plant/

richie123 · 03-12-2020 11:50am

ted1 wrote: »

what you are talking about is an Anerobic Digester

Isn't there an issue where animals in Ireland are grazed in fields and the energy to collect their waste is greater then the energy from the waste.

some trials have been conducted in Ireland with farms and the results were not good.

here's one, that basically uses the brown bins:

https://www.bitc.ie/newsroom/members-news/meet-energias-new-anaerobic-digester-bioenergy-plant/

That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

riddlinrussell · 03-12-2020 11:53am

richie123 wrote: »

That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

Are you suggesting that Wind Turbines/Solar still need subsidy? Both are mature and are beating Non-Renewables hand over fist even with Non-Renewables receiving subsidies in many cases. The only thing really keeping Non-Renewables in the game at all at this stage is lack of guaranteed base load.

ted1 · 03-12-2020 12:05pm

richie123 wrote: »

That's exactly it without decent subsidies there useless.
Same with turbines and solar pv..
The ordinary joe soap is charged through the nose.50 euro a year increase alone in pso levy this year.
Only big companies can apply for these turbine and pv projects.
It's one big scam imo.

If a technology cant stand on its own feet then why should it be subsidised.

Big companies provide Economies of scale, the state shouldn't be supporting your pet project.

If you want a ROI I suggest you invest in green fund.

https://www.bvp.ie/eii-scheme/eii-tax-relief-scheme-fund/

Energy infrastructure

Comments