Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

john boye · 12-04-2019 8:19pm

GM228 wrote: »

I believe so which is why I mentioned it as a bit of a joke.

Saw the same on a few recently repainted buses in the past but I assume they were removed before long.

.G. · 13-04-2019 9:22pm

Was on a 07 VT yesterday for the first time in ages, given their age it was still rock solid, no rattles or squeaks, as good as new. Very well built, shame to see them go.

As for the buggy debate, in full agreement with the drivers here having been one myself, its an absolute pain having to deal with the battles over those spots and unless you do the job you'll never understand it. Parents used public transport for decades before the advent of low floor buses and they all managed so they'd manage again. A wheelchair user can't fold the wheelchair, the space should be for them and them alone.

Stephen15 · 13-04-2019 9:37pm

.G. wrote: »

As for the buggy debate, in full agreement with the drivers here having been one myself, its an absolute pain having to deal with the battles over those spots and unless you do the job you'll never understand it. Parents used public transport for decades before the advent of low floor buses and they all managed so they'd manage again. A wheelchair user can't fold the wheelchair, the space should be for them and them alone.

It's an extra convenience for parents it's a shame to hear that the convenience is being abused by some. I think allowing two buggies with one in the wheelchair is opening a can of worms by the sounds of things. A fair compromise to me would be allowing one unfolded buggy in the buggy space and reserving the wheelchair space for wheelchair users is a workable solution.

devnull · 13-04-2019 9:38pm

.G. wrote: »

A wheelchair user can't fold the wheelchair, the space should be for them and them alone.

I completely agree, that is exactly why there should be a seperate buggy space to stop people putting buggies in the wheelchair bay and therefore ensure that a wheelchair person can travel rather than turning them away which I've seen happen twice since the turn of the year alone.

The theory that one wheelchair space is enough and no buggy space is required would be fine if drivers were enforcing no buggies in the wheelchair space and forcing occupants of the area to move if a wheelchair user boards, but drivers won't do that and if a passenger won't move there is little they can do.

Personally I think wheelchair users deserve better but if people want to leave vulnerable people by the side of the road because of a flawed theoretical argument despite the substantial practical issues of enforcing no buggies in the wheelchair bay, then that's their prerogative.

Stephen15 · 13-04-2019 9:47pm

Removing the two fold down seats on the SGs beside the buggy space would be a good idea that would likely allow two buggies on the bus without one needing to be in the wheelchair area so a completely separate area for wheelchairs and buggies.

.G. · 13-04-2019 10:04pm

devnull wrote: »

I completely agree, that is exactly why there should be a seperate buggy space to stop people putting buggies in the wheelchair bay and therefore ensure that a wheelchair person can travel rather than turning them away which I've seen happen twice since the turn of the year alone.

The theory that one wheelchair space is enough and no buggy space is required would be fine if drivers were enforcing no buggies in the wheelchair space and forcing occupants of the area to move if a wheelchair user boards, but drivers won't do that and if a passenger won't move there is little they can do.

Personally I think wheelchair users deserve better but if people want to leave vulnerable people by the side of the road because of a flawed theoretical argument despite the substantial practical issues of enforcing no buggies in the wheelchair bay, then that's their prerogative.

I don't agree with reducing capacity by providing two seperate spaces but thats me.

As far as the buses with just the one space, Its far easier for a driver to prevent a buggy user from even boarding the bus than it is to get one thats already on to comply with a request to fold it.

If the rules are made clear and widely publicised and enforced people will get the message eventually. I prevented buggy users from getting on my bus when the space was occupied by another buggy or a wheelchair user but its a different argument if the space is empty and the byelaws say they can use it. The driver is in no position to prevent them from using it and is also not in a position to force anyone to vacate it should a wheelchair user require it. What should he or she do if they say no, which they *always* did whenever I asked?

devnull · 13-04-2019 10:17pm

.G. wrote: »

I don't agree with reducing capacity by providing two separate spaces but thats me.[

As far as the buses with just the one space, Its far easier for a driver to prevent a buggy user from even boarding the bus than it is to get one thats already on to comply with a request to fold it.

If the rules are made clear and widely publicised and enforced people will get the message eventually. I prevented buggy users from getting on my bus when the space was occupied by another buggy or a wheelchair user but its a different argument if the space is empty and the byelaws say they can use it.

What you say is good in theory but unfortunately people in wheelchairs have to deal with what happens in practice which is very different. However much you try to force people to comply some simply won't, there have been court cases about this in the UK, so saying that if rules are published heavily people will abide by them is yet more fantasy theory based stuff that falls down in practice. By your own admission drivers can't enforce them, who else will?

I do not think it is acceptable to say for instance, to make sure the bus has 100 seats instead of 98 seats is more important than ensuring that there will not be an occasion when a vulnerable wheelchair person could be left by the roadside for a substantial period of time because someone else is using a buggy that they refuse to move.

I have never been on a VT where it is completely full and it's exceptionally rare that I am on any other bus when it is completely full, there are always seats upstairs towards the back but people only stick their head up the staircase and look at the first few rows and Dublin drivers are exceptionally poor in that they often go past stops 'full' when there is room for both standees and passengers.

The driver is in no position to prevent them from using it and is also not in a position to force anyone to vacate it should a wheelchair user require it. =

And that is where you show that your flawed theory doesn't hold up in practice because you're describing the very crux of the problem that some of the most vulnerable in our society face. The worst that happens to a passenger by the removal of two seats is in the unlikely event that all seats or taken (versus a perception that they are) they may have to stand. A wheelchair person cannot board and can be left cold and vulnerable in the rain. That's far worse.

punisher5112 · 13-04-2019 11:15pm

Sure had one earlier push buggy out centre doors and kid face plants the ground.....

Not strapped in and just wheels straight off.

We can't stop a buggy using the space as per usual the rubbish comes to us late and as buses state 1 buggy or 1 wheelchair at a time but then from 2013 buses on 2 spaces and 1 should obviously be for an actual wheelchair but you can't force someone to vacate.

I had a few years back a serious incident as in its laughable it even went this way but it did...

I was driving an AX so only 1 space and pull up to a stop, 2 buggies and a wheelchair user.

So girls with buggies want on but won't fold... Neither were willing to fold but we're adamant they were traveling.

I let the wheelchair user on as they were at the same stop so I told the girl the wheelchair takes the space and she must fold as I wouldn't be moving until it was done.

10 minutes of stress and attitude to me and a full bus and everyone tutting at me....

2 buggies and a wheelchair on an AX I don't think so.... So eventually she folds and then getting off takes 5 minutes to sort the buggy and made a point of doing so on the bus even though 5 others were getting off all known and together.

Wheelchair user also wanted out and then turns out they all know each other well and I'm abused big time and threats etc... Videos and photos taken of me.. I get to the terminus 20 minutes late after all this and take a few minutes to chill.

I'm off again and forgotten and moved on with my life only to be met by the girls fella 30 minutes down the route wanting blood...

She had called him and he made his way to meet me on my way down and then held me there for 30 minutes until the Gardai came and removed him but of course as per usual let him walk away...,

It's absolutely bat sh1t crazy what is happening to us out there.

.G. · 13-04-2019 11:18pm

Firstly you come across very very condescending so I'll bow out after this. Not interested in further discussion with you. My point is yes a wheelchair user can't board if there's a buggy in their way, we are both saying this, so ban them.

You want drivers to make people fold the buggy's but didn't answer as to how exactly a driver should make a person do it? I already know how they can avoid that situation and that's not let them on if the first place unless its already folded but if the current rules allow for it whats a driver supposed to do? I haven't driven any of the buses that have a space for both and I can assure you if I did no buggy would be in the wheelchair space, ever. People do actually listen if they want to get on the bus badly enough and the only way its happening is to comply with your request before they do so. They'll fold or they'll wait for the next one that may have a space for them. Fair do's though in my day not every bus was low floor so they would be expecting to fold sometimes anyway. We can get back to that scenario with an outright ban.

So like I said, its easier to simply not allow a buggy on in the first place then get one folded after its on which is nigh on impossible in both my experience and yours I bet. I've been there and done it. No unfolded buggys allowed, end of discussion, doors closed and off you go. I'd rather leave them standing then face leaving a wheelchair user in the cold further along the route.

Stephen15 · 13-04-2019 11:30pm

.G. wrote: »

Firstly you come across very very condescending so I'll bow out after this. Not interested in further discussion with you. My point is yes a wheelchair user can't board if there's a buggy in their way, we are both saying this, so ban them.

You want drivers to make people fold the buggy's but didn't answer as to how exactly a driver should make a person do it? I already know how they can avoid that situation and that's not let them on if the first place unless its already folded but if the current rules allow for it whats a driver supposed to do? I haven't driven any of the buses that have a space for both and I can assure you if I did no buggy would be in the wheelchair space, ever. People do actually listen if they want to get on the bus badly enough and the only way its happening is to comply with your request before they do so. They'll fold or they'll wait for the next one that may have a space for them. Fair do's though in my day not every bus was low floor so they would be expecting to fold sometimes anyway. We can get back to that scenario with an outright ban.

So like I said, its easier to simply not allow a buggy on in the first place then get one folded after its on which is nigh on impossible in both my experience and yours I bet. I've been there and done it. No unfolded buggys allowed, end of discussion, doors closed and off you go. I'd rather leave them standing then face leaving a wheelchair user in the cold further along the route.

If unfolded buggies were banned from buses do you think this would be enforced by drivers either as every driver is different some drivers like to make sure all passengers uphold all the byelaws whereas others have a lax attitude and are happy to allow banned items such as alcohol on to buses.

I wonder how they manage with this issue in other cities on the continent where there is a no driver interaction with the passengers but then again these types of buses usually have fewer seats and more floorspace for buggies and wheelchairs.

.G. · 13-04-2019 11:49pm

If its an outright ban their employers would make that case very clearly to them. If a wheelchair user wants to board a bus and can't cos there's an unfolded banned buggy on it then they can report it and the driver would be taken to task by his employer. Its the only way there can be no grey area like their currently is. Its for people who have no option but use it, everyone else has an option.

devnull · 13-04-2019 11:56pm

.G. wrote: »

My point is yes a wheelchair user can't board if there's a buggy in their way, we are both saying this, so ban them.

Here you highlight the theory which is all well and good but....

You want drivers to make people fold the buggy's but didn't answer as to how exactly a driver should make a person do it?

.....once again you highlight the fact that drivers have no power to enforce such theory.

I already know how they can avoid that situation and that's not let them on if the first place unless its already folded but if the current rules allow for it whats a driver supposed to do? I haven't driven any of the buses that have a space for both and I can assure you if I did no buggy would be in the wheelchair space, ever. People do actually listen if they want to get on the bus badly enough and the only way its happening is to comply with your request before they do so.

I can't see every driver questioning everyone with a buggy who gets on the bus saying to them that they have to fold it up. Most drivers just want the least hassle possible and are not going to get involved in arguments like that from what I have seen. Perhaps you would be different but most I see on Dublin Bus just want to seek to avoid confrontation and drive the bus.

Banning something without any proper, close to zero tolerance enforcement is a ban with almost no effect.

Stephen15 · 13-04-2019 11:58pm

.G. wrote: »

If its an outright ban their employers would make that case very clearly to them. If a wheelchair user wants to board a bus and can't cos there's an unfolded banned buggy on it then they can report it and the driver would be taken to task by his employer. Its the only way there can be no grey area like their currently is. Its for people who have no option but use it, everyone else has an option.

I think it's a pity that it has come to stage where people are abusing the privilege of allowing an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space. It's a handy convenience for people with small children as long as they are prepared to be asked to fold up their prams in the event of a wheelchair or a large number of passengers needing to stand board.

punisher5112 · 13-04-2019 11:59pm

devnull wrote: »

Here you highlight the theory which is all well and good but....

...once again you highlight the fact that drivers have no power to enforce such theory.

I can't see every driver questioning everyone with a buggy who gets on the bus saying to them that they have to fold it up. Most drivers just want the least hassle possible and are not going to get involved in arguments like that from what I have seen. Perhaps you would be different but most I see on Dublin Bus just want to seek to avoid confrontation and drive the bus.

I seek to avoid all hassle but it's something I've come accustomed to...

Dealing with the public is torture at times...

If I was told it would be like this I would have done something else many moons ago

punisher5112 · 14-04-2019 12:03am

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think it's a pity that it has come to stage where people are abusing the privilege of allowing an unfolded buggy in the wheelchair space. It's a handy convenience for people with small children as long as they are prepared to be asked to fold up their prams in the event of a wheelchair or a large number of passengers needing to stand board.

It doesn't work like that....

Sorry can you fold, I'll even give you a hand....

Met with silence mostly, oh it doesn't fold, I don't know how to, I can't, even had why are you badgering me etc etc etc....

It's a fooking joke....

How has this thread gone so off track....

VT will be missed so badly and the comfort compared to any other is unreal.

Sg are pure muck.

devnull · 14-04-2019 12:07am

.G. wrote: »

If its an outright ban their employers would make that case very clearly to them. If a wheelchair user wants to board a bus and can't cos there's an unfolded banned buggy on it then they can report it and the driver would be taken to task by his employer.

Forcing staff to confront passengers who do not comply with instructions is never going to be something that will be accepted by Dublin Bus unions who are at the moment campaigning for a transport police to keep their members safe from any kind of confrontation with the public.

On a big bus like a tri-axle VT there is certainly room for a buggy space and that way nobody gets left outside in the rain, be they a wheelchair user, a person with a buggy or an able bodied person. Arguing that 98 seats is not enough but a single space to me is just a flawed argument.

Surely it's just far better that people with buggies just use their cars and don't inconvenience people using public transport, I mean, not like the roads are busy with enough cars already is it?

punisher5112 · 14-04-2019 12:12am

devnull wrote: »

Forcing staff to confront passengers who do not comply with instructions is never going to be something that will be accepted by Dublin Bus unions who are at the moment campaigning for a transport police to keep their members safe from any kind of confrontation with the public.

On a big bus like a tri-axle there is certainly room for a buggy space and that way nobody gets left outside in the rain, be they a wheelchair user, a person with a buggy or an able bodied person. Arguing that 98 seats is not enough but a single space to me is just a flawed argument.

Surely it's just far better that people with buggies just use their cars and don't inconvenience people using public transport, I mean, not like the roads are busy with enough cars already is it?

That's never going to happen.....
There are around 130 inspectors then another number of highly paid chief inspectors whom all seem to do as little as possible and are in most cases of no help at all.

devnull · 14-04-2019 12:15am

punisher5112 wrote: »

I seek to avoid all hassle but it's something I've come accustomed to...

And honestly that's how I see most of your colleagues are like as well to be honest Punisher, most of them just don't want to get involved in an argument especially with the way some of the Irish Rail staff have been abused lately and that is understandable and I totally see why you guys don't want the hassle.

punisher5112 · 14-04-2019 12:20am

devnull wrote: »

And honestly that's how I see most of your colleagues are like as well to be honest Punisher, most of them just don't want to get involved in an argument especially with the way some of the Irish Rail staff have been abused lately and that is understandable and I totally see why you guys don't want the hassle.

Don't mistake what I said with that I turn a blind eye or take SH1TE off of anyone as I don't and I've been upstairs many a time over these exact issues.

I've been attacked numerous times, threatened countless times, spat on quite a few times and I mean a few.....

I was recently enough attacked by a taxi driver and I have no issues stating he was sorry he tried what he did on me as I have never seen a gobsheen like him run back to his car so quickly before.... Let's say he was slightly bruised and not just his ego.

I will treat everyone I come across with respect but only as much as I'm shown and this is the way it's gone.

I will help out anyone that needs it and will go out of my way as best I can for those that are unfortunately in a wheelchair for example.

Stephen15 · 14-04-2019 12:27am

punisher5112 wrote: »

It doesn't work like that....

Sorry can you fold, I'll even give you a hand....

Met with silence mostly, oh it doesn't fold, I don't know how to, I can't, even had why are you badgering me etc etc etc....

It's a fooking joke....

How has this thread gone so off track....

VT will be missed so badly and the comfort compared to any other is unreal.

Sg are pure muck.

I know it doesn't work like that it's like many things good in theory but doesn't work in actual reality.

Back to the topic at hand I think the SGs get a bit of a bad rap from certain circles usually from enthusiasts who generally have a preference for older buses. The VTs were and still are a good bus in terms of the fact that they are very well built but they are impractical in the sense that they don't have dual doors and have a cramped entrance with a lack of standing room.

I don't think the SGs are the best thing since sliced bread or anything but they're a decent enough bus one complaint I hear from people is they're underpowered but I've been on many where the driver was booting it. If the SGs which now make the majority of the fleet were so awful then how come DB passenger numbers have grown year upon year surely bad buses would put people off.

In terms of build quality most buses on the UK and Irish markets are going the way of the SGs with Euro 6 regulations and an emphasis on fuel savings. I could be wrong but I doubt the competing ADL Enviro 400 MMC is superior to the SGs as they're really the only two options for double decker city buses for the NTA to go with.

Stephen15 · 14-04-2019 12:38am

devnull wrote: »

Forcing staff to confront passengers who do not comply with instructions is never going to be something that will be accepted by Dublin Bus unions who are at the moment campaigning for a transport police to keep their members safe from any kind of confrontation with the public.

On a big bus like a tri-axle VT there is certainly room for a buggy space and that way nobody gets left outside in the rain, be they a wheelchair user, a person with a buggy or an able bodied person. Arguing that 98 seats is not enough but a single space to me is just a flawed argument.

Surely it's just far better that people with buggies just use their cars and don't inconvenience people using public transport, I mean, not like the roads are busy with enough cars already is it?

I disagree with the first half of your statement there now but agree with the second half. I don't think it's really fair to expect drivers who have enough to be dealing to confront passengers drivers have the right not to put up with hassle their job is to drive the bus in a manner that is safe and efficient not to act as a referee in passenger disputes. Making drivers deal with disputes is just going to lead to more and more situations where engine is switched off which is no good for anyone.

testarossa40 · 15-04-2019 9:29pm

devnull wrote: »

And honestly that's how I see most of your colleagues are like as well to be honest Punisher, most of them just don't want to get involved in an argument especially with the way some of the Irish Rail staff have been abused lately and that is understandable and I totally see why you guys don't want the hassle.

In your view, has this thread not been derailed? I thought it was a discussion about the sale of DB's VTs but has now veered off into an argument about wheelchair vs. buggy spaces...

Markcheese · 16-04-2019 8:02am

Do the wheelchair /buggy areas have rails or handrails for standing passengers, (folding seats fair enough as long as theirs space),
This type of argument doesn't happen on a luas, the space is there,(not all seated) and the driver doesn't have to be involved at all,
On a double decker the lower deck could be mainly standing and the upper is for seated, just let the driver drive..

bk · 16-04-2019 3:18pm

If I'm not mistaken, the Enviro 400XLB bus mentioned earlier is a Euro 6 engine, but not a Hybrid bus.

Given that the NTA have said no more Diesel only buses from summer this year, then this bus would be a non starter for here, not unless they could spec them as a hybrid.

Interestingly I was in Portugal a few weeks ago and taking the bus their, single decker, I noticed it was registered as carrying 84 people. That is similar to the early SG's I believe. And it wasn't a particularly long single decker, wasn't a bendy bus (though they did have them) and it was only dual axle.

I'm not sure we really get that much benefit out of double deckers, not in the real world. There are almost always empty seats upstairs, you can't stand upstairs and often their is unseen standing room downstairs at the back, due to people crowding around the front. We certainly aren't getting anywhere near double capacity out of them. Maybe 10% extra.

Most of the rest of the world don't use double decker buses, they get by with single deckers. In particular look at China, hundreds of millions of people carried by bus every day, all single deckers.

They achieve it by having greater frequency, multiple doors, quick boarding times, more standing.

I'm not at all convinced that we are following the correct model on this.

Dravokivich · 16-04-2019 3:39pm

So the answer to less buses... is more buses?

bk · 16-04-2019 3:56pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

So the answer to less buses... is more buses?

Which less buses? The size of the Dublin City bus fleet has grown by 10% over the last year

And yes, if you went single decker, you would need even more buses, but certainly not double the amount, maybe another 10 to 20%.

Of course it is a different operating model, much faster dwell times, multi door operation, zero driver ticketing, etc.

But given that buses services in Dublin are some of the worst I've experienced in any similar sized mainland European city, I'm not at all convinced we have the correct approach to buses.

We have a bit of an old fashioned operating model. You have to have lots of seats, because it is going to take ages to get anywhere as the bus slowly winds its way through every side street and estate and the bus better be high capacity, since one will turn up only every hour, so it better have space so you don't get left behind.

Buses in Europe are quiet different, bus pulls up, three doors open, people pile out of three doors, people pile on any door, bus pulls away just 20 seconds after stopping, all very fast. No you probably won't get a seat, there aren't many and usually kept for the less mobility abled, but it is ok, you won't be on the bus for long as it sticks to the main roads and doesn't go off on mystery tours. Can't get on the bus because it is too full, no bother, there will be another one along in 3 minutes.

High speed, high frequency, mass transit service.

Stephen15 · 17-04-2019 1:24am

bk wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, the Enviro 400XLB bus mentioned earlier is a Euro 6 engine, but not a Hybrid bus.

Given that the NTA have said no more Diesel only buses from summer this year, then this bus would be a non starter for here, not unless they could spec them as a hybrid.

Interestingly I was in Portugal a few weeks ago and taking the bus their, single decker, I noticed it was registered as carrying 84 people. That is similar to the early SG's I believe. And it wasn't a particularly long single decker, wasn't a bendy bus (though they did have them) and it was only dual axle.

I'm not sure we really get that much benefit out of double deckers, not in the real world. There are almost always empty seats upstairs, you can't stand upstairs and often their is unseen standing room downstairs at the back, due to people crowding around the front. We certainly aren't getting anywhere near double capacity out of them. Maybe 10% extra.

Most of the rest of the world don't use double decker buses, they get by with single deckers. In particular look at China, hundreds of millions of people carried by bus every day, all single deckers.

They achieve it by having greater frequency, multiple doors, quick boarding times, more standing.

I'm not at all convinced that we are following the correct model on this.

The GTs take 86 and the SGs take 95 people while the older single door double deckers take about 90. You are right in what you say about about the double deckers not being efficient but I do think we are moving in the right direction when it comes to bus specification with the SGs as they have a much larger standing capacity than any of their predecessors with dual doors to speed up dwell times.

To some extent though Dublin's streetscape is best suited to double deckers as they are shorter and narrower than most continental single deckers look at the situation with the Streetlites on the 59 as they cannot take the roundabout in Killiney Hill but yet a double decker can despite the fact that the 59's passenger numbers are in the low single digits for most trips.

Also in some cases having 3 doors doesn't have the desired effect on dwell times I have heard that the 3 doored new routemasters in London which have been a disaster from beginning to end have longer dwell times as the driver has to monitor each set of doors to make it's safe to close them. They were a complete vanity project from beginning to end and they replaced efficient high capcity bendybuses.

AlekSmart · 17-04-2019 6:25am

Stephen15 wrote: »

The GTs take 86 and the SGs take 95 people while the older single door double deckers take about 90. You are right in what you say about about the double deckers not being efficient but I do think we are moving in the right direction when it comes to bus specification with the SGs as they have a much larger standing capacity than any of their predecessors with dual doors to speed up dwell times...........

The SG is considerably slower to operate at a Bus Stop than any of it's predecessors.

The inherent design of the various Euro 6 "systems" added to a poor internal layout,guarantee that a Driver will spend more time at each stop,irrespective of the loading.

The number of exits is largely irrelevant on the vast majority of Dublin routes,but the lack of infrastructural planning allied to a totally outdated Fare & Ticketing Regime contribute FAR more to delays across the system.

A single door EV is just about the most efficient and rapid Bus to operate currently.

dfx- · 17-04-2019 2:31pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

The bus appears to be used mostly for private hires rather than public service so there's no real need for dual doors. The Lothian buses in Edinburgh do have dual doors.

The new type in the thread perhaps, but almost all of them new and old single deckers alike that I was on had one set of doors, including the new shiny Airport services with a cash autofare system too.

There would be people in this forum with pitchforks outside the NTA if new buses were bought like that here.

The one single thing that is necessary is a flat fare system. Same as National Express West Midlands who are buying brand new one door buses. The VTs could have stuck around with a flat fare.

bk · 17-04-2019 3:06pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The inherent design of the various Euro 6 "systems" added to a poor internal layout,guarantee that a Driver will spend more time at each stop,irrespective of the loading.

From a passengers perspective, single door buses are horrible. It sucks so badly to have to squeeze past all the morons who insist in hanging off the pole by the driver.

The dual door buses are so much nicer for passengers when actually used. You can get off much easier and more comfortably out of the rear door.

The SG's layout is far from perfect and they well maybe more work for drivers, but they are far nicer from the passenger perspective. A perspective that often seems to be forgotten in some of these conversations!

dfx- wrote: »

The new type in the thread perhaps, but almost all of them new and old single deckers alike that I was on had one set of doors, including the new shiny Airport services with a cash autofare system too.

I'd argue that the UK is not the place we should be looking for inspiration on operating public transport. Outside of London, IME, the UK is pretty poor compared to mainland Europe.

The problem with the new routemasters third door, was that it was designed to be an open platform and operated by a conductor during busy hours. But when it was launched,, there was no conductor and it was left to the driver, which it never really was designed for. I'd agree it was a very poor design. A good example of form over function.

On triple door buses in mainland Europe, the doors are normally operated by the passengers using a button, inside or out, similar to how the Luas works. That takes the pressure off drivers and puts responsibility in the hands of passengers.

Again, I'd go try city buses in a place like Berlin or Poland to see what really good bus services look like. I'm not impressed by the UK at all. London is better then what we currently have, but it certainly isn't the best (in terms of buses).

BTW Interestingly in Portugal I saw drivers give out to tourists for trying to exit via the front door, they were told in no uncertain terms to exit via rear door

You certainly have a point about double deckers perhaps being more suited too our narrow streets. Though so do many other mainland European cities and they seem to get by with single deckers (I assume shorter length and higher frequency).

AlekSmart, I also agree with you that flat fare and new faster ticket machines is priority number 1. But I also don't think it will be good enough to stop just at that. Rear door used at all times, no entry allowed via front door, perhaps move to passenger operated doors, maybe move to triple door, dual stairs, etc. are all the type of things we should be looking at.

Stephen15 · 17-04-2019 3:43pm

dfx- wrote: »

The new type in the thread perhaps, but almost all of them new and old single deckers alike that I was on had one set of doors, including the new shiny Airport services with a cash autofare system too.

There would be people in this forum with pitchforks outside the NTA if new buses were bought like that here.

The one single thing that is necessary is a flat fare system. Same as National Express West Midlands who are buying brand new one door buses. The VTs could have stuck around with a flat fare.

Lothian used to have dual door buses until the mid 00s when decision was made to remove them due to claims and fare evasion I believe. Difference between them and DB I think was that Lothian actually went to trouble of removing the centre doors unlike DB with the RVs which just weren't used.

The VTs are still around DB still have 50 VTs only twenty have been withdrawn under the fleet replacement programme as they were approaching 14 years old.

thomasj · 17-04-2019 4:40pm

Stephen15 wrote:

The VTs are still around DB still have 50 VTs only twenty have been withdrawn under the fleet replacement programme as they were approaching 14 years old.

They are and they still being put to good use on the 39As , and fill to the brim more often than not

dfx- · 18-04-2019 3:04pm

bk wrote: »

From a passengers perspective, single door buses are horrible. It sucks so badly to have to squeeze past all the morons who insist in hanging off the pole by the driver.

The dual door buses are so much nicer for passengers when actually used. You can get off much easier and more comfortably out of the rear door.

The SG's layout is far from perfect and they well maybe more work for drivers, but they are far nicer from the passenger perspective. A perspective that often seems to be forgotten in some of these conversations!

As now a regular user of services with single doors and old buses which is seeing growing passenger numbers, all the features of an SG you mention are just not worth the bespoke Dublin spec cost.

bk wrote: »

I'd argue that the UK is not the place we should be looking for inspiration on operating public transport. Outside of London, IME, the UK is pretty poor compared to mainland Europe.

Of course you'd argue this because the only place doing things as you would like them and how Dublin is copying is London and mainland Europe. I'm very happy with the services I've experienced outside London except Arriva areas.

I'm flying back to Dublin tonight and it feels like going back to the dark ages of physical Leap Cards, dual doors, lack of accessible seating downstairs, times for termini only and fare stages with stuffed to the gills buses.

Stephen15 · 18-04-2019 5:38pm

dfx- wrote: »

As now a regular user of services with single doors and old buses which is seeing growing passenger numbers, all the features of an SG you mention are just not worth the bespoke Dublin spec cost.

I doubt the NTA are forking out a huge amount extra for the dual door spec. Considering that the NTA are one of Wrights largest customers I don't think it would be a very good business move to charge extra for the features requested by the NTA and they also have other spec requests such the old style front and the recessed windscreen.

Of course you'd argue this because the only place doing things as you would like them and how Dublin is copying is London and mainland Europe. I'm very happy with the services I've experienced outside London except Arriva areas.

I'm flying back to Dublin tonight and it feels like going back to the dark ages of physical Leap Cards, dual doors, lack of accessible seating downstairs, times for termini only and fare stages with stuffed to the gills buses.

Buses are only stuffed to the gills during peak times generally. I don't how the services are going back to dark ages certainly there are some remnants of the past like the backward fare structure which we are slowly but surely moving away from.

I don't see how the SG is a backward spec if the economy is going to continue to grow then standing is to be expected. I would think that the SG class are far more pleasant to stand on than an AV, AX, VT, VG, GT or EV and have a nice spacious lower saloon my main complaint about them is the somewhat cramped upstairs of them which the competing Enviro 400 MMC does not appear to suffer from.

Polar101 · 18-04-2019 9:49pm

They could just get rid of the luggage space, then there would be no folded buggies and endless delays where buggies are being folded / unfolded while there is an argument ongoing about who is the most entitled to travel.

Stephen15 · 18-04-2019 11:46pm

While the usage of dual doors by drivers has improved ten fold since their reintroduction with the GT class there are still some drivers that point blank refuse to use them I would say 8 out of 10 drivers use them nowadays at most stops. If it's there is a liability issue for some drivers to use them then how come it's perfectly fine for drivers on airport carpark shuttle buses to use three doors at a stop if it's a bendybus. I thought of this when I was on a airport shuttle recently.

Muller1991 · 19-04-2019 10:01am

Polar101 wrote: »

They could just get rid of the luggage space, then there would be no folded buggies and endless delays where buggies are being folded / unfolded while there is an argument ongoing about who is the most entitled to travel.

If they got rid of the luggage space what would cover the wheel arch ?

Yer Da sells Avon · 19-04-2019 12:21pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

While the usage of dual doors by drivers has improved ten fold since their reintroduction with the GT class there are still some drivers that point blank refuse to use them I would say 8 out of 10 drivers use them nowadays at most stops. If it's there is a liability issue for some drivers to use them then how come it's perfectly fine for drivers on airport carpark shuttle buses to use three doors at a stop if it's a bendybus. I thought of this when I was on a airport shuttle recently.

I only use them at certain stops, where it's possible to get the entire bus parallel with the kerb. Otherwise, I don't feel that the few seconds saved are worth the risk of someone face-planting themselves.

Stephen15 · 19-04-2019 12:35pm

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

I only use them at certain stops, where it's possible to get the entire bus parallel with the kerb. Otherwise, I don't feel that the few seconds saved are worth the risk of someone face-planting themselves.

You're a GAI driver aren't you? To be fair most of the routes that are with GAI aren't really busy enough to require dual doors yeah there's a few places on the 75 where they are needed as there'd large volumes getting on and off such as around Dundrum whereas on the likes of the 63 or the 59 they'd be completely surplus to requirements at most stops as there'd only be one or two getting on or off most passengers go to the front doors anyway to be let off.

KD345 · 19-04-2019 7:40pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Buses are only stuffed to the gills during peak times generally.

I don’t know what routes you use, but you’ll find this is not the case for many parts of the city. Take a trip on a 15, 16, 25, 39a, 40, 66 or 145 any evening and you’ll see.

Both the NTA and Dublin Bus are increasing the frequency of routes specifically outside peak times to address this.

Stephen15 · 19-04-2019 8:13pm

KD345 wrote: »

I don’t know what routes you use, but you’ll find this is not the case for many parts of the city. Take a trip on a 15, 16, 25, 39a, 40, 66 or 145 any evening and you’ll see.

Both the NTA and Dublin Bus are increasing the frequency of routes specifically outside peak times to address this.

Yes I had forgotten about that they generally busy at that time but not stuffed to the gills standing room only but plenty of room for more passengers to get on. If we want an efficient transport system I think we have to forget the notion that everyone has to get a seat and accept that one may have to stand. People aren't generally being left behind at those times not saying it doesn't happen.

Polar101 · 19-04-2019 9:22pm

Muller1991 wrote: »

If they got rid of the luggage space what would cover the wheel arch ?

Seats usually. I'm sure you've seen buses without luggage spaces. In other cities where I've lived buses don't usually have the luggage space, nor is there an issues with folding buggies on buses.

Stephen15 · 19-04-2019 9:37pm

Polar101 wrote: »

Seats usually. I'm sure you've seen buses without luggage spaces. In other cities where I've lived buses don't usually have the luggage space, nor is there an issues with folding buggies on buses.

They could put an area under the stairs for folded buggies and luggage like they had on the RVs there's a large amount of unused space under the stairs behind the driver which could be used either for either seating or luggage.

thomasj · 19-04-2019 11:04pm

Stephen15 wrote:

Yes I had forgotten about that they generally busy at that time but not stuffed to the gills standing room only but plenty of room for more passengers to get on. If we want an efficient transport system I think we have to forget the notion that everyone has to get a seat and accept that one may have to stand. People aren't generally being left behind at those times not saying it doesn't happen.

I can't testify about other routes but I can tell you that at 7.30 or 8 at night I've been left behind on the quays as a full VT flies by on the 39As

Stephen15 · 19-04-2019 11:19pm

thomasj wrote: »

I can't testify about other routes but I can tell you that at 7.30 or 8 at night I've been left behind on the quays as a full VT flies by on the 39As

Is that a regular occurrence I've been on the 145 a few times and it was standing room only at 10pm albeit this generally happens when there's been a long gap of about 20 mins in service. Happens less now wit the 155.

Muller1991 · 20-04-2019 8:32am

Ive been on VTS on both the 39a and 46a after 8 and 9 in the evenings with a three bell load.

devnull · 20-04-2019 9:53am

Muller1991 wrote: »

Ive been on VTS on both the 39a and 46a after 8 and 9 in the evenings with a three bell load.

I've been on about half a dozen in the past two or three months that clearly have been considered 'full' and 'three bell loads' but they were neither of those things despite the fact passengers and drivers were acting like they were, thus the true capacity of them isn't being used because of this.

The biggest problem with long vehicles like VTs that board everyone through a single door it is exceptionally rare that load is properly distributed through the bus, it's always packed at the front and spaces at the back that cannot be filled as the driver doesn't stop the bus because they consider it 'full' when it's not.

The most common behaviour on the VT which I see almost every time I am on one in peak time is people walking up the stairs, turning their head down the isle, looking the front half of the bus, seeing no seats, walking down the stairs and then gathering at the front of the bus standing at which point the driver starts skipping stops. This is a well known problem with long vehicles, which is why cities like Berlin use two staircases and multiple doors. It might reduce the theoretical capacity but it promotes proper utilisation of the the full capacity of the bus.

Meanwhile I'm sitting near the back upstairs where over a dozen seats are free but not able to be used because the bus apparently has a 'three bell load' or is 'full' and people waiting at bus stops can't get on to take such space. The number of times I've been on VTs that are actually totally full is far less than the number of times I've been on them where double figures of seats are free but the driver has gone past 'full' because of gathering at the front.

thomasj · 20-04-2019 12:31pm

devnull wrote:

The most common behaviour on the VT which I see almost every time I am on one in peak time is people walking up the stairs, turning their head down the isle, looking the front half of the bus, seeing no seats, walking down the stairs and then gathering at the front of the bus standing at which point the driver starts skipping stops. This is a well known problem with long vehicles, which is why cities like Berlin use two staircases and multiple doors. It might reduce the theoretical capacity but it promotes proper utilisation of the the full capacity of the bus.

And yet the best option for combatting this , the BRTs, has been rejected in favour of a smaller less capacity bus , that let's be honest may run into this same problem as the VTs down the road

dfx- · 20-04-2019 3:50pm

devnull wrote: »

I've been on about half a dozen in the past two or three months that clearly have been considered 'full' and 'three bell loads' but they were neither of those things despite the fact passengers and drivers were acting like they were, thus the true capacity of them isn't being used because of this.

The biggest problem with long vehicles like VTs that board everyone through a single door it is exceptionally rare that load is properly distributed through the bus, it's always packed at the front and spaces at the back that cannot be filled as the driver doesn't stop the bus because they consider it 'full' when it's not.

The most common behaviour on the VT which I see almost every time I am on one in peak time is people walking up the stairs, turning their head down the isle, looking the front half of the bus, seeing no seats, walking down the stairs and then gathering at the front of the bus standing at which point the driver starts skipping stops. This is a well known problem with long vehicles, which is why cities like Berlin use two staircases and multiple doors. It might reduce the theoretical capacity but it promotes proper utilisation of the the full capacity of the bus.

Meanwhile I'm sitting near the back upstairs where over a dozen seats are free but not able to be used because the bus apparently has a 'three bell load' or is 'full' and people waiting at bus stops can't get on to take such space. The number of times I've been on VTs that are actually totally full is far less than the number of times I've been on them where double figures of seats are free but the driver has gone past 'full' because of gathering at the front.

This is not a specific VT problem. It happens on all buses. Some people don't want to sit upstairs at the back.

You're already on a losing situation if the service depends on squeezing a few more in at the back upstairs whatever the bus. You're losing it very badly if a 100 capacity passenger bus is that full.

devnull · 20-04-2019 4:03pm

dfx- wrote: »

This is not a specific VT problem. It happens on all buses. Some people don't want to sit upstairs at the back.

The rate that it happens on the VTs in my experience is far higher than it operates on other vehicles as the vehicle layout promotes it. It also happens downstairs on the VTs as well, not to the same degree it does upstairs I grant you, but it us very rare for it to happen on a regular bus downstairs.

You're already on a losing situation if the service depends on squeezing a few more in at the back upstairs whatever the bus. You're losing it very badly if a 100 capacity passenger bus is that full.

The argument that you seem to be making is that more capacity has to be added to make up for the fact that all of the existing capacity is not being used because of the layout of the bus. You'e losing very badly if you're investing in a high capacity bus and are happy that the layout is so flawed that 10% to 15% of the capacity won't be used. It shows that there is a serious flaw somewhere.

Just keep adding more resources or more capacity to avoid fixing the underlying problem is typical of Ireland and is one of the factors as to why this country struggled in the aftermath of the banking crisis, because after all, who cares about making things work efficiently, after all, the money to continually spend on more resources will never run out, will it?

Dublin Bus selling some of its VTs

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