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Werewolf discussion thread

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Comments

  • #1552
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    I'm off home to enjoy my evening with my family so if I'm not back on tonight I'll look forward to reading more tomorrow!

    sK if you are joining us at the beers I'll have that pint ready for us to have those few discussions we agreed to! We can throw Rand vs draft and the sub chat in too for good measure :p

    Banjo there is an open invite if you wanted to join us!


  • #1553
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Two pints. Not one. Not expecting you to share the pint sk


  • #1554
    Mollyb60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭Mollyb60


    Banjo wrote: »
    But now Necro can play the "Village! Don't lynch me! You know I have a role you just don't know what it is but it's probably not a wolf because I was voted most evil last year!" defence.

    It turns the game into even more of a popularity contest, it creates a Metagame -
    that is, N0 and D1 the safest thing to do is assume there's a Draft in the absence of other information.
    that doesn't need to exist or add anything into a game that already works as is, and to outsiders it reeks of cliquishness.

    What does it give back?


    Banjo you know I hate to agree with you but this is the bottom line for me with the draft thing. If new players know that a draft is even a possibility they'll think 'oh why would I bother playing if all the good roles will just go to their mates?'. Even if that's not what's happening, it's the perception to new players.



    And for experienced players the thought will always be in their minds that a draft is a possibility so they'll assume that it has been used and that Necro is a wolf and Beaker is a seer and Drumpot is a shaman. If we want N0 to be less serious then having a draft scenario be a possibility just completely pisses all over that. Players won't be able to help looking for things in the nonsense people say.


  • #1555
    quickbeam
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 16,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭quickbeam


    Pter wrote: »
    Because i thought they would be good in the roles i chose them for, as well as being unlikely to bail out of the game.

    Another point against non-rand. NRVs are left thinking they weren’t good enough to be given roles. I know someone has to be NRV and not everyone can get a role but it is sorta like being picked last during school sports day.

    Look, I’m all for trying new stuff and have no objection that this was tried. But I too would vote for rand only in future.


  • #1556
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sKeith wrote: »

    In most games, if similar happened, it would be called cheating.
    listing of few games where it would be called cheating;
    chess
    draughts
    poker
    scrabble
    etc..

    This whole comparison makes no sense mods aren't players they are game creators so they can't cheat only players can cheat as only players can win


  • #1557
    Kolido
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,421 ✭✭✭✭Kolido


    Wouldnt be gone on the idea of drafting tbh. I dont think we've ever had a game become unplayable because someone no showed or had to drop out.
    If you are drafting players to roles because you can trust them to be around then you'd end up drafting the same bunch of players every time.


  • #1558
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    This whole comparison makes no sense mods aren't players they are game creators so they can't cheat only players can cheat as only players can win

    Of course referees can cheat. Don't be silly


  • #1559
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Banjo wrote: »
    Of course referees can cheat. Don't be silly

    No I don't agree if you can't win something then you can't cheat, you can be unfair or biased but you can't cheat.

    This could be some poor understanding of the English language on my part so I'm open to being convinced otherwise


  • #1560
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No I don't agree if you can't win something then you can't cheat, you can be unfair or impartial but you can't cheat.

    This could be some poor understanding of the English language on my part so I'm open to being convinced otherwise

    :D

    *Cue Necro creating some sort of secret mod game where the aim is for the players to find and lynch the moderators*


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  • #1561
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he's intimidated by the home crowd or the big occasion is not impartial.
    A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he has €10,000 on the game is cheating.


  • #1562
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This whole comparison makes no sense mods aren't players they are game creators so they can't cheat only players can cheat as only players can win


    So,

    The dealer is in charge of a 3 handed game of poker, and he swaps out player 1's cards which would have been 7 2 with a K J, because that would be more interesting up against player 2's QQ and player 3's AK.


    The players have no idea the dealer was manupilating the deck.


  • #1563
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Banjo wrote: »
    A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he's intimidated by the home crowd or the big occasion is not impartial.
    A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he has €10,000 on the game is cheating.

    5vQxvabkDHrT.gif


  • #1564
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Banjo wrote: »
    A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he's intimidated by the home crowd or the big occasion is not impartial.
    A referee who gives a penalty on a dodgy call because he has €10,000 on the game is cheating.

    Is that just an example or is financial gain the only way a ref could be considered a cheat?


  • #1565
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Is that just an example or is financial gain the only way a ref could be considered a cheat?

    sKeith's example is better. Pter is bound to move it here once he realises that he hadn't moved your post over yet. But yes, one example.


  • #1566
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Is that just an example or is financial gain the only way a ref could be considered a cheat?


    Dunno what game the ref is reffing but i'll try gereralize it.

    The ref maybe knows that the losers are going home, and the winners will stay around for the next rounds, so rigs it so the people he don't like are knocked out and have to go home.


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  • #1567
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    sKeith wrote: »
    Dunno what game the ref is reffing but i'll try gereralize it.

    The ref maybe knows that the losers are going home, and the winners will stay around for the next rounds, so rigs it so the people he don't like are knocked out and have to go home.

    Ya but is that cheating or just biased. Ah look I'm probably way off here its probably just poor understanding on my part so I'll stand corrected on this. I'm like 80% convinced :)


  • #1568
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    sKeith wrote:
    The ref maybe knows that the losers are going home, and the winners will stay around for the next rounds, so rigs it so the people he don't like are knocked out and have to go home.


    That's a risk in any game (dodgy refs / mods / GM's). It's the issue I raised in D&D discussion a couple of months ago, to no obvious solution. It's a problem the Rand doesn't actually rule out. How easy is it to fix a Rand? Very.

    As was pointed out to me for D&D there is always going to be a requirement for trust within a game.

    Now what qb and molly and in fairness to ye probably you guys as well have pointed out about the draft meaning mod picks can be anticipated....well I don't know about that. Put aside players won't know there is a draft, even if they do, will they know I picked my picks based off who is best for the role, or based off 'well let's see if he is good in this role' or based off 'lets give the beginners a couple of the power roles to make sure they get experience'. They won't.

    And if it was suggested to do a day 1 lynch off the back of 'maybe the mods did a draft' that would be dismissed by a village as quickly as a low poster hunt. For much the same reasons. Because it's not actually based on any good evidence at all.


  • #1569
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Kolido wrote:
    Wouldnt be gone on the idea of drafting tbh. I dont think we've ever had a game become unplayable because someone no showed or had to drop out. If you are drafting players to roles because you can trust them to be around then you'd end up drafting the same bunch of players every time.


    I know one that came very very close.

    As I mentioned above, that was one criteria that I used for my 4 picks. The other mods used different criteria. That's why we had a good mix of players and why the players selected weren't all just our boards bestos.


  • #1570
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Pter wrote: »
    That's a risk in any game (dodgy refs / mods / GM's). It's the issue I raised in D&D discussion a couple of months ago, to no obvious solution. It's a problem the Rand doesn't actually rule out. How easy is it to fix a Rand? Very.

    As was pointed out to me for D&D there is always going to be a requirement for trust within a game.

    Now what qb and molly and in fairness to ye probably you guys as well have pointed out about the draft meaning mod picks can be anticipated....well I don't know about that. Put aside players won't know there is a draft, even if they do, will they know I picked my picks based off who is best for the role, or based off 'well let's see if he is good in this role' or based off 'lets give the beginners a couple of the power roles to make sure they get experience'. They won't.

    And if it was suggested to do a day 1 lynch off the back of 'maybe the mods did a draft' that would be dismissed by a village as quickly as a low poster hunt. For much the same reasons. Because it's not actually based on any good evidence at all.

    You're comparing apples to assault rifles. Werewolf is a game with rules. D&D is a game with guidelines. And The Rule Of Cool


  • #1571
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    On the examples, the 10k on one team one is based on the ref profiting, so that doesn't really translate.

    The poker one is describing the dealer making tactical changes mid game, not strategic ones pregame. The poker one is more akin to why mods shouldn't tamper with a game while it's ongoing. It's a better argument for why we shouldn't rebalance during a game.

    The poker comparison here, I think, is that the player loads the table with people he knows are bad players with one shark.


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  • #1572
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Both are internet forum games banjo. It's not chalk and cheese.

    The game in question had rules and they were followed.

    A Rand requires just as much trust in the mod team as a draft.


  • #1573
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Just skimming, so don’t mind me. I didn’t realise that a schoolyard pick was a possaible way of assigning teams in this game, will this be the case in the LOTR game?


  • #1574
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Pter wrote: »
    Both are internet forum games banjo. It's not chalk and cheese.

    The game in question had rules and they were followed.

    A Rand requires just as much trust in the mod team as a draft.

    I have tried.

    Good luck.
    May you find a better teacher than I.


  • #1575
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Appreciate the discussion Banjo!


  • #1576
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    Teddy Daniels wrote: »
    Just skimming, so don’t mind me. I didn’t realise that a schoolyard pick was a possaible way of assigning teams in this game, will this be the case in the LOTR game?

    Well we are discussing if mods picking players if one way to do it. Do you have any thoughts?


  • #1577
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Pter wrote: »
    Both are internet forum games banjo. It's not chalk and cheese.

    Oops, missed this bit. Can't let this go. But I'm ranting and you won't read it all so

    Tl;Dr:

    In D&D typically the players choose their roles. Why not give that a go next time you're modding Werewolf?

    Are they the same?


  • #1578
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    I didnt say they are the same. They just arent as different as apples and assault rifles! Yours is an overly simplistic comparison, but then i did ask for simplicity.

    We can agree to disagree?


  • #1579
    Banjo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,485 ✭✭✭✭Banjo


    Never :)
    Now put your phone away and drink - you're being antisocial!


  • #1580
    Baggly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    I will definitely agree to that.

    Haha checkmate.


  • #1581
    deconduo
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 4,281 Mod ✭✭✭✭deconduo


    quickbeam wrote: »
    Another point against non-rand. NRVs are left thinking they weren’t good enough to be given roles. I know someone has to be NRV and not everyone can get a role but it is sorta like being picked last during school sports day.

    Look, I’m all for trying new stuff and have no objection that this was tried. But I too would vote for rand only in future.

    Agree with this, I think a draft only really works if everyone has a role. With NRVs in the mix it can just feel unfair if its not random.
    Banjo wrote: »
    Oops, missed this bit. Can't let this go. But I'm ranting and you won't read it all so

    Tl;Dr:

    In D&D typically the players choose their roles. Why not give that a go next time you're modding Werewolf?

    Are they the same?

    Ran a few less serious game before like that - where players picked their roles, also one where players picked roles for other people. Overall it worked quite well, and led to some hilarious games.


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  • #1582
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    sKeith wrote:
    viewpost.gif

    In most games, if similar happened, it would be called cheating.
    listing of few games where it would be called cheating;
    chess
    draughts
    poker
    scrabble
    etc..
    Deleted User wrote: »
    This whole comparison makes no sense mods aren't players they are game creators so they can't cheat only players can cheat as only players can win
    sKeith wrote: »
    So,

    The dealer is in charge of a 3 handed game of poker, and he swaps out player 1's cards which would have been 7 2 with a K J, because that would be more interesting up against player 2's QQ and player 3's AK.


    The players have no idea the dealer was manupilating the deck.
    Pter wrote: »
    On the examples, the 10k on one team one is based on the ref profiting, so that doesn't really translate.

    The poker one is describing the dealer making tactical changes mid game, not strategic ones pregame. The poker one is more akin to why mods shouldn't tamper with a game while it's ongoing. It's a better argument for why we shouldn't rebalance during a game.

    The poker comparison here, I think, is that the player loads the table with people he knows are bad players with one shark.


    That particular example was not in response to any WW discussion, but in response to the "only players can cheat as only players can win" response.


    I could have made similar examples for each of the games. Yes, you can call it bias or favoritism or any other name, but is not letting the players play the game fairly and grind out a result. If the player can feel cheated out of that, can it not be called cheating. Mick, I'm not 100% sure either, but i've nearly convinced myself it can be.



    All the games I mentioned have rules that can be changed, but if you ever play any of them games, you agree to the rules before the game.


    Poker has many variations all with different rules. But once you have declared, we're playing 5 card draw, you'll get serious back looks from the other players if you go and deal yourself 7 cards and everybody else 5 cards.


  • #1583
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Teddy Daniels wrote:
    Just skimming, so don't mind me. I didn't realise that a schoolyard pick was a possaible way of assigning teams in this game, will this be the case in the LOTR game?

    No. Can confirm game will be done via random assignment on random.org


  • #1584
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    I know one thing I've established from this discussion anyways.

    Banjo should play more games of WW :P


  • #1585
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Necro wrote: »
    I know one thing I've established from this discussion anyways.

    Banjo should play more games of WW :P


    And you don't have to watch my hands closely when I'm dealing out the ww cards.


  • #1586
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    sKeith wrote: »
    And you don't have to watch my hands closely when I'm dealing out the ww cards.

    You probably shouldn't watch my hands, I'm a crap shuffler. Likely to drop them all :pac:


  • #1587
    duffman13
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,025 ✭✭✭duffman13


    I'm kinda on QBs line of thinking, not mad on the draft myself. I can see the thoughts of a mod with doing it but we wanna keep on open house and new players would be put off by it, I know I would have been.

    The only way I can see it working in any guise is for example there is 10 roles, rand the roles, top 10 names get a role and mods then draft. Still random but even then I'd be hesitant to use it myself and it doesn't solve Pters problems of no shows etc


  • #1588
    Mollyb60
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,638 ✭✭✭Mollyb60


    While I still think a draft option shouldn't be included in our games, i do love the idea of everyone picking roles for everyone else in a one off game. Each person gets to nominate 3 players for specific role/roles. Mods then rand the nominees and draw up the player list that way.


  • #1589
    Bounty Hunter
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,853 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    I'd be happy for a games mods to pick roles for people if it was very occasional and we don't get told. If we know it's not common place we won't read too much into things and think experienced players must have whatever role. Also I can imagine in some games especially ones where they are trying out a new role/twist on the game mods might want to have an experienced head play such a role especially if say that role being in play is something that could even up teams / odds of the teams.


  • #1590
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Kolido wrote: »

    Another 2 suggestions I'd like to put forward ( I think they may have been mentioned already) is a dedicated yearly thread that summerises each game (summary can be submitted by game mods). Summary could contain, amoung other things, player/role list, key points in the game, maybe a list of each kill, and a list of content submitted to the wolfies.

    Hey Kolido.....

    Your wish is my command ;)


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  • #1591
    Drumpot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Necro wrote: »
    Hey Kolido.....

    Your wish is my command ;)

    I love them summaries as post 2 in a game thread. Think one mod did that one game....


  • #1592
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    So I've been considering putting together a more up to date guide and posting it in the WW Forum in relation to the various stages of planning and modding a game.

    Fellow users and previous game mods would be able to chip in as well then once it's created.

    Does that seem like a good idea?

    I know we have threads on how to use the backroom, and how the game runs but I can't seem to find a steadfast guide for new mods to follow if they want even some small bits and pieces of guidance.


  • #1593
    sKeith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,404 ✭✭✭✭sKeith


    Necro wrote: »
    So I've been considering putting together a more up to date guide and posting it in the WW Forum in relation to the various stages of planning and modding a game.

    Fellow users and previous game mods would be able to chip in as well then once it's created.

    Does that seem like a good idea?

    I know we have threads on how to use the backroom, and how the game runs but I can't seem to find a steadfast guide for new mods to follow if they want even some small bits and pieces of guidance.

    >Does that seem like a good idea?

    Definitely.

    The sharing of knowledge is always better than the alternative.
    Even if every word isn't to somebody else's taste, then at the very least there will be a smidgen that will benefit someone.

    Its really great that our #1 ww game mod ( number of games modded : tie broken by ww games won ) is willing to put into words their experiences, so that others may benefit.


  • #1594
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    I'm actually about half way through on this and it's going to be a monster so I'll likely break it up into a series of posts rather than smash all the info out in the OP. Too much text in one post would likely make people's eyes glaze over :pac:


  • #1595
    fixXxer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,330 ✭✭✭fixXxer


    Necro wrote: »
    I'm actually about half way through on this and it's going to be a monster so I'll likely break it up into a series of posts rather than smash all the info out in the OP. Too much text in one post would likely make people's eyes glaze over :pac:

    Do it in the style of Microsoft Clippy, but as Neccy The Countdown Clock

    "It looks like you're trying a game role claim..."


  • #1596
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    And....

    Here it is


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  • #1597
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    That’s pretty cool thanks for taking the time to write it out, there’s no drafting rules was that just an experiment?


  • #1598
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Teddy Daniels wrote: »
    That’s pretty cool thanks for taking the time to write it out, there’s no drafting rules was that just an experiment?

    Wasn't my concept so I wouldn't be able to explain it correctly really. I think the rules are on COP in the modroom though


  • #1599
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Necro wrote: »
    Wasn't my concept so I wouldn't be able to explain it correctly really. I think the rules are on COP in the modroom though

    Which part of the game was your concept?


  • #1600
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    Teddy Daniels wrote: »
    Which part of the game was your concept?

    Of the Christmas game? I wasn't involved in that, I just played it.

    If you mean werewolf in general, that would be taking the basic game and applying my own finesse and mechanics to the core model, outlined here:



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057789174


  • #1601
    Teddy Daniels
    Closed Accounts Posts: 445 ✭✭Teddy Daniels


    Necro wrote: »
    Of the Christmas game? I wasn't involved in that, I just played it.

    If you mean werewolf in general, that would be taking the basic game and applying my own finesse and mechanics to the core model, outlined here:



    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057789174

    So you mean because you haven’t tried the draft method that you can’t give an experienced opinion on a good way to do it. That makes sense maybe the mods who did it can add their experiance to the thread.


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