Getting out of Civil Engineering

aquascrotum · 30-01-2012 1:31pm #1

Just a thought...what experience does anyone have of moving out of Civils after a good few years, and into another career path?

Am 8yrs graduated, Chartered civil engineer. Despite my current disillusionment I do appreciate that I'm very, very lucky to still be in a job given the numbers out there that would kill to be in my position. I do remind myself of this every day.

However I've come to the point where I'm 2nd in command at a small consultancy, am knocking in 60hr weeks, am living and breathing the job, waking in the night reminding myself of some task I need to remember to do in the morning, spending half my week getting between the regional airports in the UK and landing into the house after 11pm etc etc. I am (in fairness) earning over what the average is for my experience and role due to what I bring to the company, but am earning considerably less than less hard working, less intelligent, less committed individuals who I socialise with who work in other industries - generally finance and insurance.

At the minute my prospects are continue to knock my pan in for relative peanuts, or wait another few years and go it alone with a hope of getting a bit more reward but for even more workload - when I look at the pressure my boss is under, there's no way I want that.

I desperately need to get a better work / life balance, get a bit of quality of life and less stress, and work in something where theres a prospect of a bit of reward for being good at your job.

When doing our degrees all we heard about was how transferable our skills were, especially within finance - I know some people I left uni with managed to get into graduate programmes, but has anyone any experience of transferring across after a number of years of engineering? Is it a case of starting off again on the bottom rung? I know I can talk about skills transfer, analytical skills, project management, contractual and commercial awareness etc.

Basically any experience or advice would be appreciated. And I'm not overly bothered if work took me to London or anywhere else either - just would like to know what my options are.

elusiveguy · 30-01-2012 1:54pm

I lost my CE job due to the downturn. I did the NUI Maynooth HDip in Information Technology and 9 months later, I'm a java developer

Not sure if back to college is what you had in mind but I was very happy it worked out so well.

con1982 · 30-01-2012 2:12pm

I'm in a similar position Aquascrotum. Working like mad. Earning significantly less than the average industrial wage.

Have you considered moving to Canada? A few guys I went to college with are working in Vancouver. 8 years experience too. E60,000+ is on offer, from what i'm told. Employers are easy going and there is no recession.

I can't go for family reasons

aquascrotum · 30-01-2012 2:24pm

con1982 wrote: »

I'm in a similar position Aquascrotum. Working like mad. Earning significantly less than the average industrial wage.

Have you considered moving to Canada? A few guys I went to college with are working in Vancouver. 8 years experience too. E60,000+ is on offer, from what i'm told. Employers are easy going and there is no recession.

I can't go for family reasons

I'd prefer not to emigrate if I'm honest, at least not that far. I've been contacted about work in NZ but I'm just not sure it's my cup of tea. If things went belly up here though then I'd be on the plane.

I'd also prefer not to have to go back to college - obviously thered be some need to re-skill. At the end of the day if everyone here says theres no easy(ish) transferability in terms of finance and engineering outside of graduate recruitment, then so be it.

The tipping point for me came last week - an office cleaner came in and was looking a higher hourly rate than our chargeout rate for grad engineers. Ridiculous.

CatFromHue · 30-01-2012 2:43pm

Have you any idea what area you'd like to move into?

I'm not sure about transferring to another area without further add on study though. Could you contact the careers office from where you graduated? They should be able to give you a bit more info on how to move industry and/or what skills you'd need.

aquascrotum · 30-01-2012 2:58pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Could you contact the careers office from where you graduated? They should be able to give you a bit more info on how to move industry and/or what skills you'd need.

I'm sorry but this makes me chuckle.

I graduated from QUB - and while it was a good degree and a good uni, my experience of the careers dept both as a graduate seeking work back in 04, and as an employer trying to get word out about graduation vacancies in the middle of the worst recession in a generation, is that they absolutely do not know their arse from their elbow and don't give a jot.

In terms of what interests me - my cousin went straight into business management consultancy (basically analysing and "restructuring" businesses (getting people sacked) for efficiency) - this seems interesting. Then she moved to Amex and works in the City in London. Which I could also put up with or get interested in given the £££ apparently on the table.

Again the difficulty is she went in on graduate training programs as a 21yr old out of college, whereas I'm a dyed in the blood engineer on the brink of 30.

I've spoken to a lot of people "in finance" - who when pressed don't seem to be able to give a clear indication of what it is exactly that they do do within finance. Makes it hard to know what roles are out there for people like me.

annfield1978 · 30-01-2012 3:41pm

aquascrotum wrote: »

Just a thought...what experience does anyone have of moving out of Civils after a good few years, and into another career path?

Am 8yrs graduated, Chartered civil engineer. Despite my current disillusionment I do appreciate that I'm very, very lucky to still be in a job given the numbers out there that would kill to be in my position. I do remind myself of this every day.

However I've come to the point where I'm 2nd in command at a small consultancy, am knocking in 60hr weeks, am living and breathing the job, waking in the night reminding myself of some task I need to remember to do in the morning, spending half my week getting between the regional airports in the UK and landing into the house after 11pm etc etc. I am (in fairness) earning over what the average is for my experience and role due to what I bring to the company, but am earning considerably less than less hard working, less intelligent, less committed individuals who I socialise with who work in other industries - generally finance and insurance.

At the minute my prospects are continue to knock my pan in for relative peanuts, or wait another few years and go it alone with a hope of getting a bit more reward but for even more workload - when I look at the pressure my boss is under, there's no way I want that.

I desperately need to get a better work / life balance, get a bit of quality of life and less stress, and work in something where theres a prospect of a bit of reward for being good at your job.

When doing our degrees all we heard about was how transferable our skills were, especially within finance - I know some people I left uni with managed to get into graduate programmes, but has anyone any experience of transferring across after a number of years of engineering? Is it a case of starting off again on the bottom rung? I know I can talk about skills transfer, analytical skills, project management, contractual and commercial awareness etc.

Basically any experience or advice would be appreciated. And I'm not overly bothered if work took me to London or anywhere else either - just would like to know what my options are.

what is above ave these days?, I am 10 yrs qualified, CEng etc and have went from a peak of €65k to €44K to keep bread on the table. Obvisously, the employers are in pole position in terms of pay reviews or lack of, but I am keen to know where the market is at

aquascrotum · 30-01-2012 3:48pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

what is above ave these days?, I am 10 yrs qualified, CEng etc and have went from a peak of €65k to €44K to keep bread on the table. Obvisously, the employers are in pole position in terms of pay reviews or lack of, but I am keen to know where the market is at

I'm in NI so am on a different scale again to you guys, so very hard to gauge. When I was working in Dublin round 08/09 I dropped from E45k to E40k to redundant...

From what I can see though is that senior engineers / senior project engineers in water in the UK are being advertised round the mid to high £20k mark (never higher than £30k) - even in the south east of England - so strictly speaking by industry standard I'm doing OK.

annfield1978 · 30-01-2012 4:05pm

yeah , the wages in the UK are pretty shocking, its embarrassing really, the company I work for have most of the projects outsourced to the UK, the rates are cheap even for senior staff, and their mark up factor is low too, around 1.5 - 1.6

yourpics · 30-01-2012 5:07pm

Have you considered hiring more staff to share the workload?

scotty_irish · 30-01-2012 5:30pm

Most Civils I know are planning their escape. Me, I'm currently doing a PhD which will hopefully see me as a scientific programmer when I'm done. Big bro (4 years experience) is doing a Master's in Biomedical. Most of my classmates, graduated in '09, are in other industries now such as finance etc. Don't blame anyone for getting out. Engineers in Ireland and UK are over-worked, underpaid, under-appreciated. Look at continental Europe where engineers are respected, well-paid (even graduates) and have career prospects - not going to happen in Ireland/UK. Three mates working in France currently as one year graduates - all earning mid to high 30s and rarely work over 40 hours. If I ever do work as an engineer it'll be in France/Germany, not dealing with the sh*te in Ireland.

As for getting out, I'm sure you have plenty of transferable skills, I think your biggest hurdle will be convincing a potential employer that you'll will stay in the job even in the unlikely event that civil will recover - that you're not just taking the job because you can't get any better.

aquascrotum · 30-01-2012 5:34pm

yourpics wrote: »

Have you considered hiring more staff to share the workload?

We've more than trebled in size in 3 years...our problem isn't unique, we move in circles similar to ourselves and all the small engineering consultancies about are mostly in the same boat in terms of reward for workload - or else putting in stupid amounts of work just to stay afloat.

My issue isnt with my current job, employer or workplace - its symptomatic of the opportunities within the civil engineering industry as a whole. If I don't get out now then I will turn into my current director, which is just not a life I have any intention of leading.

CatFromHue · 30-01-2012 6:09pm

aquascrotum wrote: »

I'm sorry but this makes me chuckle.

I graduated from QUB - and while it was a good degree and a good uni, my experience of the careers dept both as a graduate seeking work back in 04, and as an employer trying to get word out about graduation vacancies in the middle of the worst recession in a generation, is that they absolutely do not know their arse from their elbow and don't give a jot.

That could very well be the case but I wouldn't rule them out either.

budhabob · 30-01-2012 7:06pm

Unfortunately this seems to an a hot topic at the minute. I'm looking at the prospect of redundancy in the next few month, so the options that I see are emigration or retraining.....each day I lean towards a different option. It's a tough call.

yourpics · 30-01-2012 9:02pm

http://www.bluebrick.ie/ICTSkills/

con1982 · 30-01-2012 9:12pm

I've 8 years experience in structural design. Live and work in Dublin, making less than 30k. Really dis-heartening considering the workload and my commitment to the job/client. I suppose i'm lucky to still have a job. Can't see a future in it at the moment.

annfield1978 wrote: »

what is above ave these days?, I am 10 yrs qualified, CEng etc and have went from a peak of €65k to €44K to keep bread on the table. Obvisously, the employers are in pole position in terms of pay reviews or lack of, but I am keen to know where the market is at

CatFromHue · 30-01-2012 11:49pm

con1982 wrote: »

I've 8 years experience in structural design. Live and work in Dublin, making less than 30k. Really dis-heartening considering the workload and my commitment to the job/client. I suppose i'm lucky to still have a job. Can't see a future in it at the moment.

Do you have any major commitments here in Ireland? and do you like what you do?

While you may feel you're lucky to have a job at the end of the day if you're putting more in than you're getting out what's the point?

Brian CivilEng · 31-01-2012 1:00am

I loved being a civil engineer, I thought it a very rewarding job and more deserving of respect than it gets as a profession. But I have been out of work for three years. I used that time to do an MSc in Transport Planning, now I'm back on the job market again and a lot less confident than I was last year of getting back into employment.

What else is there to do to gain employment? I spent four years in college preparing for a career in civil eng, five years working in consultants, another year in college doing the TP. If I go to another industry does that mean at least another year in college before getting a paycheque. Things are very frustrating right now.

yourpics · 31-01-2012 1:02am

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I loved being a civil engineer, I thought it a very rewarding job and more deserving of respect than it gets as a profession. But I have been out of work for three years. I used that time to do an MSc in Transport Planning, now I'm back on the job market again and a lot less confident than I was last year of getting back into employment.

What else is there to do to gain employment? I spent four years in college preparing for a career in civil eng, five years working in consultants, another year in college doing the TP. If I go to another industry does that mean at least another year in college before getting a paycheque. Things are very frustrating right now.

I feel your frustration. The only job in this country now is politician!

whatsthecraic · 31-01-2012 1:15am

Is the general consensus that its time to get out of Engineering? Im a young (24) engineer considering getting out of the industry. Like the science of engineering, but no interest in business or management, which is where most engineering careers seem to end up if you stay with it long enough. Plus, long hours and unsatisfactory pay are fairly unappealing. I can't see the industry getting better for years to be honest.

yourpics · 31-01-2012 1:17am

whatsthecraic wrote: »

Is the general consensus that its time to get out of Engineering? Im a young (24) engineer considering getting out of the industry. Like the science of engineering, but no interest in business or management, which is where most engineering careers seem to end up if you stay with it long enough. Plus, long hours and unsatisfactory pay are fairly unappealing. I can't see the industry getting better for years to be honest.

Depends which branch of engineering you are in i.e civil is as good as gone.

Think about the number of civil engineers from Ireland who are working abroad. They hope to come home one day to Ireland to work. At the moment it is difficult to see were all the jobs for these people will come from.

Brian CivilEng · 31-01-2012 1:23am

yourpics wrote: »

I feel your frustration. The only job in this country now is politician!

Maybe that's not a bad career choice. The Dáil could use a rational thinking engineer. I always dreamt of one day being Dublin City Manager, or a London style mayor of Dublin (just call me Leslie Knope). Thought a career as a civil engineer would get me there.

yourpics · 31-01-2012 1:27am

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Maybe that's not a bad career choice. The Dáil could use a rational thinking engineer. I always dreamt of one day being Dublin City Manager, or a London style mayor of Dublin (just call me Leslie Knope). Thought a career as a civil engineer would get me there.

Too many teachers in the Dail!

What do you think are the chances of moving into a different career without re-training? In other words using your transferable skills in another industry?

nacimroc · 31-01-2012 1:35am

yourpics wrote: »

What do you think are the chances of moving into a different career without re-training?

I qualified in civil about 6 years ago! As far as I'm concerned its a dead occupation. Even if it does pick up theres a whole army of qualified graduates getting great experience abroad who will swoop back in to fill any positions, lowering the salaries and making it difficult to get anything.

I honestly couldn't see any possibility of you progressing into another area without some training. Even if was a 1 year business coarse etc, it would define you as something other than another engineer desperate for any work who will leave when they get something else.

Judging from the etenders site, the area of water/waste water is booming so maybe progression into that field may be easier?

scotty_irish · 31-01-2012 9:51am

whatsthecraic wrote: »

Is the general consensus that its time to get out of Engineering? Im a young (24) engineer considering getting out of the industry. Like the science of engineering, but no interest in business or management, which is where most engineering careers seem to end up if you stay with it long enough. Plus, long hours and unsatisfactory pay are fairly unappealing. I can't see the industry getting better for years to be honest.

If you like the science and engineering maybe computer programming would be for you. There's demand for programmers with numerical backgrounds - the programming itself is easy to learn - it's the ability with numbers that makes you stand out.

aquascrotum · 31-01-2012 9:52am

nacimroc wrote: »

Judging from the etenders site, the area of water/waste water is booming so maybe progression into that field may be easier?

In my experience the work available in water / waste is whats propping up whats left of the Irish civil engineering market - I wouldn't foresee any requirement for the market expanding or recruiting significantly to meet water or waste demand.

aquascrotum · 31-01-2012 10:02am

scotty_irish wrote: »

If you like the science and engineering maybe computer programming would be for you. There's demand for programmers with numerical backgrounds - the programming itself is easy to learn - it's the ability with numbers that makes you stand out.

What are the pay and opportunities like in programming?

Turbulent Bill · 31-01-2012 11:18am

aquascrotum wrote: »

My issue isnt with my current job, employer or workplace - its symptomatic of the opportunities within the civil engineering industry as a whole. If I don't get out now then I will turn into my current director, which is just not a life I have any intention of leading.

If you don't like the civil field as it stands, could you start 'rebranding' yourself as a technical manager rather than civil engineer? Highly numerate, wide techical background, proven problem-solving techniques etc. Focus on you broader skillset.

I don't see value in retraining yourself for a technical role in finance etc. given your experience, you'd probably end up back at grad-level pay. Better to stick at your current job and look into conversion courses or something similar in project/technical management.

scotty_irish · 31-01-2012 12:53pm

aquascrotum wrote: »

What are the pay and opportunities like in programming?

Programming pays decent. In the UK now so can't really comment on irish salaries, but positions here pay far better than engineers (wouldn't be difficult tbh).

I did an MSc in High Performance Computing (1 year) in Edinburgh and most of my class were from science/engineering backgrounds. Of a class of 20, I know of none who are looking for work now. Everyone who wanted to go into academia, got quick offers and most people who wanted to work were in jobs before graduation. We used to often have companies in recruiting and get loads of job ads in the email.

con1982 · 31-01-2012 2:29pm

I can't leave for family reasons. Yes, I like what I do. The work is stimulating and there is a good atmosphere in the office.

The point for me is, I have no other qualifications and would struggle to find work. I can't afford to be unemployed.

CatFromHue wrote: »

Do you have any major commitments here in Ireland? and do you like what you do?

While you may feel you're lucky to have a job at the end of the day if you're putting more in than you're getting out what's the point?

courty08 · 31-01-2012 6:51pm

I am due to graduate in May and have been for a long time considering going straight into another field be it through a job or masters. I have been applying for UK Civil grad programmes and if by luck I manage to get one I have a vague plan of working 2/3 years and then go and do a masters in something else. From your experiences would you advise doing this or just put all my energy into getting out of civil now?

Getting out of Civil Engineering

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