No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

Cody montana wrote: »

Rural Ireland is dying because rural life is not appealing.

True. Some elements of rural life such as self-sustainability are obviously less popular than in the past.

But many still rather to be closer to nature and being surrounded by familiar people than living in a large city.

(and I'm not suggesting everyone is on 1 acre plots of their own or anything, just less compact than living in a city like Dublin)

JupiterKid wrote: »

Some coastal towns and a couple of tourist spots are holding up but so much of rural Ireland is in a very sad state of irreversible decline.

Blame the vegans.

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Church is all but dead.

Blame the pedos.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Local services are being closed down.

People will no longer accept the high price of local goods.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Pub culture is dying out.

It'll die out where drink & driving has stopped.

JupiterKid wrote: »

The GAA is holding up, thankfully.

Actually, with less people drinking Saturday night, more of them are able to play early Sunday.

JupiterKid wrote: »

those trapped by the housing nightmare

You mean the ones that were forced to buy in the arsehole of nowhere because we have to give the prime locations to those on SW?

Tell me how wrote: »

I don't think it is the right approach to let companies who want to locate in Dublin City centre dictate the strategy for the entire country.

Companies are free to locate where they want.
We don't live in a centrally planned economy and the IDA can only do so much.
As in suggest alternate sites if companies ask for the advice.
But in a lot of cases Dublin is competing against other European capitals, so the likes of Cork/Galway would never be in the running.

gandalf wrote: »

IMHO our best bet is to build up our other cities, Galway, Cork & Limerick and try and get furture MNC's to base themselves there.
Atm everything is too Dublin centric and it is strangling the capital.

To provide a counterbalance to Dublin you need to invest in one or at a push two other cities. Good luck on getting politicians to agree on that.
Lack of investment and joined up political thinking is what is strangling Dublin.

(I have co-authored a number of papers on regional and urban trends in Ireland with another due out in May next).

I hope you are not under the impression that these papers are in any way scientific - what you describe is not research, it is starting with a conclusion then trying to prove it. Not to mention using AH as a source.

looksee wrote: »

I hope you are not under the impression that these papers are in any way scientific - what you describe is not research, it is starting with a conclusion then trying to prove it. Not to mention using AH as a source.

not sure you can say they're not academic without reading them.

Pretty sure this thread is a parallel discussion as opposed to part of the research.

Sheeps wrote: »

Answering my question with a question isn't answering my question? Why shouldn't we let rural Ireland decline?

Read the second line of my answer sheeps. I did make a typo. Should have been 'stand to'.

Then please answer the question.

Tell me how wrote: »

Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.

awec wrote: »

Leopardstown is not really soulless and unsuitable. There are loads of companies in Leopardstown and Sandyford, the place is buzzing during the day. At night there is not a lot going on, but not really sure why Salesforce employees would care about that unless they decide to live there too.

Leapardstown, and Sandyford, and all the other so-called "commercial parks" are soulless and unsuitable (and should be bulldozed).

Industrial estates make sense. Factories and Warehouses etc need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store goods, operate large machinery and load/unload shipping. They need to be located near motorways with easy connections to ports, airports and the wider country to easily bring in raw materials and ship finished goods via articulated trucks and vans etc.

Retail parks make sense for DIY, Garden Centers and Furniture stores as they also need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store and display bulky items and load/unload shipping. Likewise, they also deal with large amounts of trucks and vans bringing goods both to and from these stores so need to be located near motorways on the outskirts of the city.

Offices, on the other hand, deal with people and only people. They don't need horizontal space, and, in fact, for large offices, require vertical space (it is far faster to walk from a desk on the 3rd floor, up the lifts to the 14th floor and then to the meeting room by those lifts than it is to walk back and forth for 5-10 minutes at a time to meeting areas across large campuses). The traffic to and from offices are just people, typically all arriving 8.30-9.30 and leaving between 16.30 and 18.00. It's not motorways they need access to, but a variety of rapid public transport that can easily and quickly bring people to and from the offices to/from all over the city and suburbs and deal with the large quantities during hush hour. Offices don't distribute goods all over the country (or abroad via airports and ports), the locations they are concerned with are just the city itself and ensuring that all areas of the city are easily accessible, so that the entire city's population can potentially work there and not just the tiny fraction who happen to live in the nearby suburbs or on the one or two bus routes that pass the office.

Offices also result in large numbers of people who need access to people-centric activities - to be able to quickly access a variety of eating places during lunch time, quickly nip out to doctors, dentists, banks etc throughout the day, people who need to quickly buy something from a variety of shops either during lunch time or immediately after work. And, come the evening, especially on a Thursday and Friday evening, provide swarms of people with a variety of social options (predominantly good pubs). The only place to put offices is the city center. In the modern era, the purpose of a city center is offices (along with high density residential, some retail, parks/plazas, social and cultural areas etc).

Unfortunately, in Dublin (and our other cities), city centers are dominated by low-density housing and we have been placing our offices on the outskirts of the city. It is why we cannot have good public transport; it is why we have hugely expensive property prices, it is why Dublin city (and other cities to a lesser degree) is complete gridlock during rush hours; and it is why so many people are forced to commute ridiculous travel times. Until we reverse our idiotic city planning decisions and build up our city centers, it will only continue to get worse.

dotsman wrote: »

Leapardstown, and Sandyford, and all the other so-called "commercial parks" are soulless and unsuitable (and should be bulldozed).

Industrial estates make sense. Factories and Warehouses etc need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store goods, operate large machinery and load/unload shipping. They need to be located near motorways with easy connections to ports, airports and the wider country to easily bring in raw materials and ship finished goods via articulated trucks and vans etc.

Retail parks make sense for DIY, Garden Centers and Furniture stores as they also need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store and display bulky items and load/unload shipping. Likewise, they also deal with large amounts of trucks and vans bringing goods both to and from these stores so need to be located near motorways on the outskirts of the city.

Offices, on the other hand, deal with people and only people. They don't need horizontal space, and, in fact, for large offices, require vertical space (it is far faster to walk from a desk on the 3rd floor, up the lifts to the 14th floor and then to the meeting room by those lifts than it is to walk back and forth for 5-10 minutes at a time to meeting areas across large campuses). The traffic to and from offices are just people, typically all arriving 8.30-9.30 and leaving between 16.30 and 18.00. It's not motorways they need access to, but a variety of rapid public transport that can easily and quickly bring people to and from the offices to/from all over the city and suburbs and deal with the large quantities during hush hour. Offices don't distribute goods all over the country (or abroad via airports and ports), the locations they are concerned with are just the city itself and ensuring that all areas of the city are easily accessible, so that the entire city's population can potentially work there and not just the tiny fraction who happen to live in the nearby suburbs or on the one or two bus routes that pass the office.

Offices also result in large numbers of people who need access to people-centric activities - to be able to quickly access a variety of eating places during lunch time, quickly nip out to doctors, dentists, banks etc throughout the day, people who need to quickly buy something from a variety of shops either during lunch time or immediately after work. And, come the evening, especially on a Thursday and Friday evening, provide swarms of people with a variety of social options (predominantly good pubs). The only place to put offices is the city center. In the modern era, the purpose of a city center is offices (along with high density residential, some retail, parks/plazas, social and cultural areas etc).

Unfortunately, in Dublin (and our other cities), city centers are dominated by low-density housing and we have been placing our offices on the outskirts of the city. It is why we cannot have good public transport; it is why we have hugely expensive property prices, it is why Dublin city (and other cities to a lesser degree) is complete gridlock during rush hours; and it is why so many people are forced to commute ridiculous travel times. Until we reverse our idiotic city planning decisions and build up our city centers, it will only continue to get worse.

You are making my point that all the other suitable towns and cities should be better promoted and supported to attract feasible businesses.

We do not live in the republic of inner city Dublin.

I can also confirm, Sandyford is indeed soulless.

Dick phelan wrote: »

We do need more development outside of Dublin, not talking about the middle of nowhere either but develop some of the sizable towns across the country Clonmel being a good example of a town that's grown and some big factories there. For a lot of people Dublin or Cork is the only serious option to find work. Having 30% of people live on such a small amount of land isn't sustainable. It's mad that we still have an outdated planning system that doesn't allow for high rise apartment blocks. If the're going to solve the housing crisis we need to get away from the idea that everyone can own an actual house, in most major cities people live in apartments and that's the way forward in Dublin.

I do think it's sad that certain elements of our culture are being lost in favor of a more trans atlantic or European vibe, I find this very evident in our media, how many articles do you see about Trump, the Wall, Gun control ect. These are all US internal issues, why are there dozens of articles about it in our papers, we have enough on our own plate without worrying about an US guns laws which have zero effect on us.

Your first paragraph spoke about the need for high rises and the argument supporting them is often "this is what they do in US and american cities".

That makes it somewhat strange to read your second paragraph.

Tell me how wrote: »

Your first paragraph spoke about the need for high rises and the argument supporting them is often "this is what they do in US and american cities".

That makes it somewhat strange to read your second paragraph.

Building a high rise building is hardly a culture i mean Hong Kong is hardly the same culture as Saudi Arabia.

Tell me how wrote: »

I don't think it is the right approach to let companies who want to locate in Dublin City centre dictate the strategy for the entire country.

Dublin or the UK, as our freight infrastructure is costly.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Rural Ireland is slowly dying - this country is rapidly urbanising, particularly in and around Dublin - our City State (I have co-authored a number of papers on regional and urban trends in Ireland with another due out in May next).

I could co-author a paper on how people can fly without parachutes, but doesn't mean it's true.

Tell me how wrote: »

You are making my point that all the other suitable towns and cities should be better promoted and supported to attract feasible businesses.

We do not live in the republic of inner city Dublin.

I fully agree that our other cities should be promoted (towns will never be suitable for vast majority of companies). However, right now, our other cities are just mini Dublins, suffering from the exact same horrific planning and resulting problems. What large office space exists in Cork/Limerick/Galway city-centers with excellent public transport options? Salesforce weren't going to move from some stupid commercial park on the outskirts of Dublin to some stupid commercial park on the outskirts of Cork. Even if some magical office space opened up in Cork City, and Salesforce moved there, you would have the exact same problem but with Salesforce having a much smaller potential employee pool to choose from.

We have to build it first, then promote it.

Dealing with our towns and rural Ireland is a different conversation again!

Yara Ripe Lasso wrote: »

Correct, having another +1m by 2040 isn't going to be solved by as you say 'building a few skyscrapers in Dublin or Cork', tbh.

Build a new city, an eco-city that's purely tech-office orientated. Leave Cork, Limerick etc etc for light manufacturing, agri-phara etc. Cork has one issue, - which is that it isn't central, it's a coastal city on the Southern extremity.

But it would only work with HSRail to Dublin (20mins), then decades later 20mins also to Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Dundalk.



Building anything in towns/cities that are already congested and where land cost is premium can't ever be cheap.

New pre planned cities don't work unless you give them the capital functions (Brasilia, DC, Canberra) or you give them special economic or legal benefits (Vegas, Dubai, Shenzhen). Are we going to make your new city the capital? If not what economic or legal benefits are available?

Yara Ripe Lasso wrote: »

Only two offerings:
i) Cheap spacious apartments to live in (slightly in demand).
ii) Cheap class-A office buildings for MNCs (slightly in demand).

It's not same as Canberra or Vegas, which are hundreds of miles from nearest major cities, but HSRail (20mins) would be needed for folks to get to central Dublin to access the port, airport, specalised shopping, weekend entertainment, hospitals etc.

Who is going the build the Grade A office buildings in Mullingar or wherever? You need to give developers incentives? What incentives can we offer them?