No vision for a rapidly changing Ireland

Undividual

Tell me how wrote: »

I think what we'd need is the German attitude to developing strategies for all of society and to be willing to accept the concept of 'the greater good'.

(I bet there are people in Germany having the same conversations we are having mind)

I don't see any problems arising from this.

If there's one country's model we should follow, its Germany. Arguably the most self-destructive Western country from WWI to today.

Tell me how

Undividual wrote: »

I don't see any problems arising from this.

If there's one country's model we should follow, its Germany. Arguably the most self-destructive Western country from WWI to today.

Yeah. It went from defeat in WW2 to strongest European economy in what, 50 years?

Nothing to be learned there I'm sure.

Undividual

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah. It went from defeat in WW2 to strongest European economy in what, 50 years?

Nothing to be learned there I'm sure.

Yeah, we could learn to cover up mass sexual assaults like in Cologne. Holding the church to account took us decades. I think Germany may be heading in the wrong direction.

German sex crime stats for 2017:

rape and sexual coercion / sexual assaults 11,282
suspects x 9,414
German suspects x 5,931
non-German suspects x 3,483

https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/Publications/PoliceCrimeStatistics/2017/pks2017_englisch.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3

Franz Von Peppercorn

Tell me how wrote: »

Debatable. But if so, that is part of the problem.

It’s not debatable but it is a problem.

GAA Beo

gandalf wrote: »

IMHO our best bet is to build up our other cities, Galway, Cork & Limerick and try and get furture MNC's to base themselves there. Atm everything is too Dublin centric and it is strangling the capital. At least if we spread the opportunities between all the major cities it makes it commutable from most of the country. Companies and especially MNC's are going to want to be based somewhere where there is a certain scale of infrastructure so every town in every county is never going to be a choice for them but at least if the IDA promote the major cities equally then it should mean that there will be more companies basing themselves in the three other major cities. Couple that with an emphasis on infrastructure improvement on the West Coast and I can see a bright future for us.

I agree, although it's worth noting the vast majority of our public transport is directed towards Dublin. I had to get a 2.5 hour bus to Dublin before I could get the train to Limerick last week. The overall return journey took 10 hours. It would be the same to Cork as no direct public transport locally thus I wouldn't move to those areas.

What is the long term economic plan for somewhere like Donegal. I'm not from there but it so far away from the cities mentioned. I suppose it is beside Derry City but even it is neglected.

Tell me how

Undividual wrote: »

Yeah, we could learn to cover up mass sexual assaults like in Cologne. Holding the church to account took us decades. I think Germany may be heading in the wrong direction.

German sex crime stats for 2017:

rape and sexual coercion / sexual assaults 11,282
suspects x 9,414
German suspects x 5,931
non-German suspects x 3,483

https://www.bka.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/EN/Publications/PoliceCrimeStatistics/2017/pks2017_englisch.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3

Yeah that's a good post for a sex crimes related discussion.

Don't see it's relevance here.

skooterblue2

kneemos wrote: »

Housing in Dublin. Yer man is on about rural Ireland.

That is why we need a massive decentralisation program

Undividual

Tell me how wrote: »

Yeah that's a good post for a sex crimes related discussion.

Don't see it's relevance here.

You said that we should look to Germany and follow their 'greater good' approach (a terrifying path to go down). Do you think it was for the greater good that German media covered up the Cologne attacks?

Hard to have a discussion about rapidly changing Ireland without looking at some of the undesirable effects of mass migration across Europe, given we expect another 500,000 migrants in the coming decades.

Cody montana

Rural Ireland is dying because rural life is not appealing.

gandalf

GAA Beo wrote: »

I agree, although it's worth noting the vast majority of our public transport is directed towards Dublin. I had to get a 2.5 hour bus to Dublin before I could get the train to Limerick last week. The overall return journey took 10 hours. It would be the same to Cork as no direct public transport locally thus I wouldn't move to those areas.

I'd count public transport as part of the infrastructure that needs to be upgraded. Maybe a central transport hub based in Athlone?

What is the long term economic plan for somewhere like Donegal. I'm not from there but it so far away from the cities mentioned. I suppose it is beside Derry City but even it is neglected.

Unfortunately given the population dispersion up there I doubt there would be anything direct. Derry would probably be it's best bet as a satellite but the road to Derry would have to be upgraded and definitely the road from Derry to Dublin would (it sucks atm).

Tell me how

Cody montana wrote: »

Rural Ireland is dying because rural life is not appealing.

True. Some elements of rural life such as self-sustainability are obviously less popular than in the past.

But many still rather to be closer to nature and being surrounded by familiar people than living in a large city.

(and I'm not suggesting everyone is on 1 acre plots of their own or anything, just less compact than living in a city like Dublin)

Lefty Bicek

Berserker wrote: »

Why thankfully? If they GAA did die and rugby, a far more inclusive sport, took over, what loss would that be?

Rugby is robotic muck, is the why.

Better than cross-country basketball (aka Gaelic Football), granted.

Hurling, however, is indisputably superior to either.

In any case, sports stand on their own terms. There is no onus on any sport to be 'inclusive'.

What is good for Ireland is to maintain what is best about Ireland. Hurling is uniquely so.

Rugby as 'inclusive', yeah, roysh. Unless you want to bore us with the old 'Doctors and Dockers' blarney ?

the_syco

JupiterKid wrote: »

Some coastal towns and a couple of tourist spots are holding up but so much of rural Ireland is in a very sad state of irreversible decline.

Blame the vegans.

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Church is all but dead.

Blame the pedos.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Local services are being closed down.

People will no longer accept the high price of local goods.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Pub culture is dying out.

It'll die out where drink & driving has stopped.

JupiterKid wrote: »

The GAA is holding up, thankfully.

Actually, with less people drinking Saturday night, more of them are able to play early Sunday.

JupiterKid wrote: »

those trapped by the housing nightmare

You mean the ones that were forced to buy in the arsehole of nowhere because we have to give the prime locations to those on SW?

Franz Von Peppercorn

I like rugby but the idea that it’s an inclusive sport is ludicrous.

jackofalltrades

Tell me how wrote: »

I don't think it is the right approach to let companies who want to locate in Dublin City centre dictate the strategy for the entire country.

Companies are free to locate where they want.
We don't live in a centrally planned economy and the IDA can only do so much.
As in suggest alternate sites if companies ask for the advice.
But in a lot of cases Dublin is competing against other European capitals, so the likes of Cork/Galway would never be in the running.

gandalf wrote: »

IMHO our best bet is to build up our other cities, Galway, Cork & Limerick and try and get furture MNC's to base themselves there.
Atm everything is too Dublin centric and it is strangling the capital.

To provide a counterbalance to Dublin you need to invest in one or at a push two other cities. Good luck on getting politicians to agree on that.
Lack of investment and joined up political thinking is what is strangling Dublin.

Undividual

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I like rugby but the idea that it’s an inclusive sport is ludicrous.

Well, it does include the rich and the wealthy.

lbc2019

Undividual wrote: »

Well, it does include the rich and the wealthy.

the ppl from Limerick

Sheeps

Why should we be worried about the decline of rural Ireland?

looksee

(I have co-authored a number of papers on regional and urban trends in Ireland with another due out in May next).

I hope you are not under the impression that these papers are in any way scientific - what you describe is not research, it is starting with a conclusion then trying to prove it. Not to mention using AH as a source.

Tell me how

Sheeps wrote: »

Why should we be worried about the decline of rural Ireland?

Why shouldn't we?

If we utilize it properly we stabdvti make the best use of all our resources to the betterment of all society.

Tell me how

looksee wrote: »

I hope you are not under the impression that these papers are in any way scientific - what you describe is not research, it is starting with a conclusion then trying to prove it. Not to mention using AH as a source.

not sure you can say they're not academic without reading them.

Pretty sure this thread is a parallel discussion as opposed to part of the research.

Sheeps

Tell me how wrote: »

Why shouldn't we?

If we utilize it properly we stabdvti make the best use of all our resources to the betterment of all society.

Answering my question with a question isn't answering my question? Why shouldn't we let rural Ireland decline?

Tell me how

Sheeps wrote: »

Answering my question with a question isn't answering my question? Why shouldn't we let rural Ireland decline?

Read the second line of my answer sheeps. I did make a typo. Should have been 'stand to'.

Then please answer the question.

Undividual

Tell me how wrote: »

Read the second line of my answer sheeps. I did make a typo. Should have been 'stand to'.

Then please answer the question.

Sounds a bit totalitarian. In a capitalist economy, individuals act as free agents to choose where best to invest time and money. Naturally some areas will flourish as a result and others recede.

To intervene on the behalf of all of rural Ireland seems like over-reach for government policy. I think it would make more sense to focus on de-centralization (finishing what the government threatened to do so many years ago).

GAA Beo

gandalf wrote: »

I'd count public transport as part of the infrastructure that needs to be upgraded. Maybe a central transport hub based in Athlone?



Unfortunately given the population dispersion up there I doubt there would be anything direct. Derry would probably be it's best bet as a satellite but the road to Derry would have to be upgraded and definitely the road from Derry to Dublin would (it sucks atm).

Yeah I was discussing this with friends at the weekend how our public transport really is below European standards. The English rail system puts us to shame, before we even get to mainland Europe. We need to massively upgrade public transport in this country. I believe Shane Ross does not have the vision to do this and it needs to be pushed as an important issue for economic growth. Athlone would probably suit best. Although Bus Eireann can't even manage a decent online ticketing system or to have clean toilet facilities in Busaras, so maybe our expectations are too high!

Best bet for Donegal would be put all their eggs in the Letterkenny basket but you're right that the dispersed population makes things very difficult. I know Sligo was marked in the 2040 plan but I'm not sure if anything will happen with that. I think there is some sort of plan for a Derry-Dublin motorway but I'm not sure of the status of that at the moment. I recall reading some Unionists didn't want it and NIMBY's were objecting to planning causing massive delays. I suppose the collapse of Stormont hasn't helped that either. Sadly there are similar issues holding back the Casement Park GAA ground in Belfast.


https://www.thejournal.ie/road-to-derry-a5-3780994-Jan2018/

GAA Beo

Sheeps wrote: »

Why should we be worried about the decline of rural Ireland?

Because it affects the whole country. But I guess this comes back to what do you mean by the term rural Ireland.


Some people take it to mean everywhere outside:


- County Dublin
- Greater Dublin Area
- Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick
- a county town or city
- a city, town or village ie actual rural

dotsman

Tell me how wrote: »

Poster above implying leopardstown as a soulless place and unsuitable just shows what a dire state we are in if everything must be located within a 2k radius from the spire in order for it to be feasible and desirable.

awec wrote: »

Leopardstown is not really soulless and unsuitable. There are loads of companies in Leopardstown and Sandyford, the place is buzzing during the day. At night there is not a lot going on, but not really sure why Salesforce employees would care about that unless they decide to live there too.

Leapardstown, and Sandyford, and all the other so-called "commercial parks" are soulless and unsuitable (and should be bulldozed).

Industrial estates make sense. Factories and Warehouses etc need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store goods, operate large machinery and load/unload shipping. They need to be located near motorways with easy connections to ports, airports and the wider country to easily bring in raw materials and ship finished goods via articulated trucks and vans etc.

Retail parks make sense for DIY, Garden Centers and Furniture stores as they also need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store and display bulky items and load/unload shipping. Likewise, they also deal with large amounts of trucks and vans bringing goods both to and from these stores so need to be located near motorways on the outskirts of the city.

Offices, on the other hand, deal with people and only people. They don't need horizontal space, and, in fact, for large offices, require vertical space (it is far faster to walk from a desk on the 3rd floor, up the lifts to the 14th floor and then to the meeting room by those lifts than it is to walk back and forth for 5-10 minutes at a time to meeting areas across large campuses). The traffic to and from offices are just people, typically all arriving 8.30-9.30 and leaving between 16.30 and 18.00. It's not motorways they need access to, but a variety of rapid public transport that can easily and quickly bring people to and from the offices to/from all over the city and suburbs and deal with the large quantities during hush hour. Offices don't distribute goods all over the country (or abroad via airports and ports), the locations they are concerned with are just the city itself and ensuring that all areas of the city are easily accessible, so that the entire city's population can potentially work there and not just the tiny fraction who happen to live in the nearby suburbs or on the one or two bus routes that pass the office.

Offices also result in large numbers of people who need access to people-centric activities - to be able to quickly access a variety of eating places during lunch time, quickly nip out to doctors, dentists, banks etc throughout the day, people who need to quickly buy something from a variety of shops either during lunch time or immediately after work. And, come the evening, especially on a Thursday and Friday evening, provide swarms of people with a variety of social options (predominantly good pubs). The only place to put offices is the city center. In the modern era, the purpose of a city center is offices (along with high density residential, some retail, parks/plazas, social and cultural areas etc).

Unfortunately, in Dublin (and our other cities), city centers are dominated by low-density housing and we have been placing our offices on the outskirts of the city. It is why we cannot have good public transport; it is why we have hugely expensive property prices, it is why Dublin city (and other cities to a lesser degree) is complete gridlock during rush hours; and it is why so many people are forced to commute ridiculous travel times. Until we reverse our idiotic city planning decisions and build up our city centers, it will only continue to get worse.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Sheeps wrote: »

Answering my question with a question isn't answering my question? Why shouldn't we let rural Ireland decline?

Because, at the very least, people in rural Ireland would oppose that. And sensible people in Dublin, where we are fairly growth restricted.

Tell me how

dotsman wrote: »

Leapardstown, and Sandyford, and all the other so-called "commercial parks" are soulless and unsuitable (and should be bulldozed).

Industrial estates make sense. Factories and Warehouses etc need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store goods, operate large machinery and load/unload shipping. They need to be located near motorways with easy connections to ports, airports and the wider country to easily bring in raw materials and ship finished goods via articulated trucks and vans etc.

Retail parks make sense for DIY, Garden Centers and Furniture stores as they also need large amounts of (cheap) horizontal space to store and display bulky items and load/unload shipping. Likewise, they also deal with large amounts of trucks and vans bringing goods both to and from these stores so need to be located near motorways on the outskirts of the city.

Offices, on the other hand, deal with people and only people. They don't need horizontal space, and, in fact, for large offices, require vertical space (it is far faster to walk from a desk on the 3rd floor, up the lifts to the 14th floor and then to the meeting room by those lifts than it is to walk back and forth for 5-10 minutes at a time to meeting areas across large campuses). The traffic to and from offices are just people, typically all arriving 8.30-9.30 and leaving between 16.30 and 18.00. It's not motorways they need access to, but a variety of rapid public transport that can easily and quickly bring people to and from the offices to/from all over the city and suburbs and deal with the large quantities during hush hour. Offices don't distribute goods all over the country (or abroad via airports and ports), the locations they are concerned with are just the city itself and ensuring that all areas of the city are easily accessible, so that the entire city's population can potentially work there and not just the tiny fraction who happen to live in the nearby suburbs or on the one or two bus routes that pass the office.

Offices also result in large numbers of people who need access to people-centric activities - to be able to quickly access a variety of eating places during lunch time, quickly nip out to doctors, dentists, banks etc throughout the day, people who need to quickly buy something from a variety of shops either during lunch time or immediately after work. And, come the evening, especially on a Thursday and Friday evening, provide swarms of people with a variety of social options (predominantly good pubs). The only place to put offices is the city center. In the modern era, the purpose of a city center is offices (along with high density residential, some retail, parks/plazas, social and cultural areas etc).

Unfortunately, in Dublin (and our other cities), city centers are dominated by low-density housing and we have been placing our offices on the outskirts of the city. It is why we cannot have good public transport; it is why we have hugely expensive property prices, it is why Dublin city (and other cities to a lesser degree) is complete gridlock during rush hours; and it is why so many people are forced to commute ridiculous travel times. Until we reverse our idiotic city planning decisions and build up our city centers, it will only continue to get worse.

You are making my point that all the other suitable towns and cities should be better promoted and supported to attract feasible businesses.

We do not live in the republic of inner city Dublin.

markpb

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Because, at the very least, people in rural Ireland would oppose that. And sensible people in Dublin, where we are fairly growth restricted.

Are we? Is there some geographical restriction to our growth? Will the land under Fairview collapse if we build anything other than semi-d's on it? Will the people of Meath rise up and fight us if we start building to the north or west?

Dublin is not restricted, it suffers from bad planning in every sense. Bad at density, bad at height, bad at infrastructure, bad at services. The SDZs of the last decade have helped a little but they can't correct decades of mistakes.