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Damsel in Distress - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    o1s1n wrote: »
    To me it does though, as it doesn't provide a balance. When I watch her videos, I get the impression that games are for male audiences, glorify the male role as a hero and the women all get shafted.

    Where this may be true in places, it negates to include the fact that in many games, men are far from glorified heros and in fact idiotic numbskulls.

    The male characters arent depicted as numbskulls, as commonly as the female characters are depicted as passive or weak or sexualised, imo.

    Just off the top of my head, mario is not a numbskull; peach/daisy/toadstool needs resucing. Link is not a numbskull, Zelda (generally) needs rescuing etc. Im not much of a Sonic player, but I looked it up, and in the first game where amy rose appears, she's kidnapped.

    Yes, characterisation of males isn't great - but there's even bigger issues with female characterisation.

    Even metroid, from that generation, has a female hero, but then you get to see her progressively more naked if you complete the game faster - why? Wheres the male equivalent?

    o1s1n wrote: »
    No it's not and you've created something of a straw man here. We can agree that smoking causes cancer due to medical analysis and testing. It is a medically proven fact. There's no arguing with it.


    Its certainly the case that there is a great deal more evidence (convincing evidence) - that smoking causes cancer, where as there is very little evidence (certainly not convincing, I would say) - that depictions of females in video games is leading to bad treatment of women in real life.

    But I wasnt arguing that strong evidence existed.

    I was pointing out that "I played video games, and I dont mistreat women" is as weak a refutation as "I smoked for 70 years, and I didnt get cancer". It doesn't settle the question of whether depictions of women in games leads to mistreatment.

    It counts as very weak evidence against, as personal anecdotes do, but the issue is still wide open. Its an issue that its probably very hard to gather empirical evidence on - so we have to settle for argument, at this point in time.


    o1s1n wrote: »
    Can we cut open a videogame and witness whether or not people view women as property due to Zelda being placed in a cell? No, we cannot.

    Therefore how do we assess this? Through analysis of cases and testimony. I'm in an interesting position as I have played videogames my whole life therefore can assess my own thinking and come to a conclusion based on my personal experience.

    Sure - but if someone is arguing that video game stereotypes can have an influence, and against he backdrop of belief (albeit controversial) that peoples cultural stereotypes and role models typically does influence their behaviour, its still worth thinking that perhaps video games shouldn't have such common negative stereotypes.

    o1s1n wrote: »
    If something has such a subtle negative influence on you that you cannot even detect it, why would you care about it?

    Because mild influences over very large numbers of people can end up having quite negative effects on the population as a whole, even though they might effect most individuals only a little.

    o1s1n wrote: »
    Do you care about mild radon levels coming from living on top of granite?

    Do you care about inhaling car fumes while walking through a busy street?

    The slightly increased risk of cancer (say) doesn't stop me walking down the street, but I'd rather we had streets without car fumes.

    o1s1n wrote: »
    Why would you care about something 'apparently' subtly changing your opinions when you actually in fact hold a completely opposing opinion?

    In fact, seeing as I think the complete opposite to what is being suggested, maybe these games actually subtly made me the way I am?

    Maybe; you could argue that people see these stereotypes in games and rebel against them.
    I mean, thats a possibility.
    Its also a possibility that they have no effect.

    But I think the general thinking in sociology and psychology is that people tend to be influenced by the cultural stereotypes they consume more so than they rebel against it. Its controversial, it may not be true, but its probably enough of a reason to try and fight the stereotypes.

    o1s1n wrote: »
    However, some of the arguments are just verging on over analysis. As you said, classic arcade games were never created to be held up as pinnacles of culture (which is perfectly fine and I'm sure she agrees) - but then to go on an over analyse issues of female ownership/properly in these games is simply ridiculous.

    In simple terms (as the game's story arc was designed in simple terms); guy's girlfriend is assaulted and kidnapped, guys freak out, go on rampage to save her. That is it. Seriously.

    I think you are right, about any one game. She's making the argument that, overall, there's a bad pattern, and that we should fix it. I think its a strong argument, and not lessened by other bad depictions of other classes of character, or in other media.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    I think the baseline has to be established of what exactly is a negative portrayal of women, full stop, regardless of the medium, and once that's achieved evaluate videogames to see how they, as a format, measure up in terms of the norm within entertainment.
    Much of big film portrays women within narrow tropes, certainly in the normal summer fare, yes you can take in something a bit more cerebral and see even more tropes, women in crisis, women in the firing line, women as mothers/daughters/lovers etc.
    Books, TV, same thing, lazy easy to digest mediums come to represent all their characters, women or not, in terms of simple tropes, the grizzled cop, the naive waitress, the beauty behind a pair of glasses just waiting for her prince to come, the man on the edge, the same crap here there and everywhere.
    So why would games be so different?

    While it would be useful to have 'baselines' as you put it, Im not sure that its necessary to really compare so much against other media.
    Sarkeesian isnt just criticising video games - she has videos on other tropes-vs-women, too.

    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    Lazy games production and publishing, by companies mostly staffed by men, targeting a mostly male audience, and you are surprised by the archetypes cropping up again and again?
    Lara Croft is an easy one, the bigger insult to our intelligence is that she is a rip off of the Indiana Jones tales, couple that with unlikely bodily proportions and it's a mess, what saves it is the level design, what nearly sank it was the controls!
    Alyx Vance, much more interesting, how easy it would have been to make her a damsel in distress, with Gordon out to save her again and again, but no, she is driven, clever, Gordons equal in almost everyway, realistically portrayed as a hero by both the writers, her voice actor and those that designed her character model.

    I like your post, focusing back on the positive - its important to remember there's a lot of positive too.

    Im looking forward to Sarkeesians video on positive characterisations in games.

    There are positive characterizations from way back - games like Final Fantasy 6 come to mind.
    I think games have a lot of potential to be way better than in the past.


    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    Sadly, we are also caught with those "auteurs" who convince us they are serious story tellers with something to say about geopolitics, before giving us cutscenes of ladies clad in tight outfits and encouraging the audience to zoom in on their person, I'm looking at you Metal Gear Solid 4!
    Theres a thread somewhere on boards where I spent literally pages giving out about how badly written MGS4 was, and how I could not understand everyone raving about it...
    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    Double Dragon? A poor representation of women? It has a poor representation of just about every character in there, from the macho bullsh1t heroes to the racially stereotyped enemies.
    Take it as a creature of it's time, together with early 80's exploitation flicks like The Warriors, see much positive female role models in there?
    TV the same of the day, George and Mildred? Terry and June?
    Agreed.
    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    Modern gaming is transforming characterisation in general, with RPG's leading the way, from the aforementioned Mass Effect 2&3 to Skyrim, you can choose who to be, regardless of sex, race or even species!

    I really enjoyed the mass effect series - you could find flaws, sure, but there's a lot of really good stuff in there, I thought.

    Similarly with Dragon Age.
    CiDeRmAn wrote: »
    If you focus on examples of poor female representation within big budget titles, you are going to be unsurpised to find them fulfilling your expectations, Call of Duty:MW is full of that crap, but that has more to say about the 13 year old kids playing it, I'm not saying it's right, but it is understandable.
    Games for the slightly more grown up, Left 4 Dead for example, has a foursome of women, men, mixed races and so on, each as capable as the other, with different attributes, none with an overall advantage, same with it's sequel. This represents the very antithesis of lazy game development, with balance and a welcome inversion of the typical horror female trope included.

    The future surely holds more improvements in the portrayal of women, as time has progressed, Rebecca Chambers excluded, we have seen female protagonists and antagonists better written and designed as more than two dimensional stereotypes.
    From Eternal Darkness to the recent Tomb Raider reboot, from Beyond Good&Evil to Mirrors Edge, we see games moving forward, even normally macho havens like Gears of War has portrayed women as more than rescue fodder for the first time.

    So, can we move on from this now?
    Is Bayonetta really poor female character? Reality is hardly the titles raison d'etre is it?
    Lollipop Chainsaw on the other hand, let's just say that no responsibility can be taken for the japanese approach to female games characters, they are well weird, good thing no one bought it!

    Just looked up Lollipop Chainsaw; very strange :-)

    I have to say, at the same time, I like the increase in strange or surreal games - as an aside from the female characterisation issue - increasing diversity and range of risky games is a good thing to shake up the medium as a whole.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭deathrider


    fergalr wrote: »
    The male characters arent depicted as numbskulls, as commonly as the female characters are depicted as passive or weak or sexualised, imo.

    Just off the top of my head, mario is not a numbskull; peach/daisy/toadstool needs resucing. Link is not a numbskull, Zelda (generally) needs rescuing etc. Im not much of a Sonic player, but I looked it up, and in the first game where amy rose appears, she's kidnapped.

    Mario continously travels to the wrong castles, to such an extent that it's become comical. I haven't played much in the way of Zelda games, but if the Phantom Hourglass is anything to go by then Link is incredibly stupid and constantly needs a fairy to inform him of what to. I don't reckon he could tie his own shoelaces. That seem pretty numbskully to me.
    ...I've nothing to back Sonic up with though.
    fergalr wrote: »
    Even metroid, from that generation, has a female hero, but then you get to see her progressively more naked if you complete the game faster - why? Wheres the male equivalent?

    Don't a great precentage of the boys spend most of the game half naked? From Zangief to Kratos. Lots of the guys are just men in cacks.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Part three:



    Found the section on the indie revival the most intriguing 'chapter' yet. It's a really interesting point - there's only so far an ironic wink at the player will get you if you are unwilling to delve any deeper and really try to subvert them rather than just semi-ironically recycling them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,532 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Ah jaysus, I'm just in from a great night out with my missus, can't quite handle why my hobby is keeping her down and adhering to misogynistic tropes right now.

    Maybe in the morning.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    You're not missing much. I really can't see her point at all. I mean sure the damsel in distress trope is over used but if it's turning men into misogynistic monsters then the problem is with those indivisuals not the games. It's like blaming school shootings on videogames. Without any proof or real psychological analysis there's really no point to it and is on par with will some one think of the children mentality.

    I still want to see her cover the games she thinks did it right, she goes into a little bit here but still doesn't give them enough coverage. Also her game design pitch she comes up with is hypocritical of what she said earlier, or I believe she said, since she is basically just replacing a male protagonist with a female one that acts like a male. It seems like another knee jerk reaction to that guy that is ripping her videos apart.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    Right = Metroid Prime series
    Samus kicking ass by herself or with others (Corruption)

    Wrong = Metroid: Other M
    Samus kicks ass but becomes subservient to a father figure. So much so that she risks death simply because she hasn't been given permission by him to use her heat shielding suit upgrade. And needs to be rescued when she becomes paralysed with fear.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭Andrew76


    Right = Metroid Prime series
    Samsung kicking ass by herself or with others (Corruption)

    Wrong = Metroid: Other M
    Samsung kicks ass but becomes subservient to a father figure. So much so that she risks death simply because she hasn't been given permission by him to use her heat shielding suit upgrade. And needs to be rescued when she becomes paralysed with fear.

    Wait, what? Samsung or Samus? :P

    Re: Part 3 - she's still making those videos? No chance I'm wasting 23 minutes and 27 seconds of my life watching it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    Andrew76 wrote: »
    Wait, what? Samsung or Samus? :P

    Re: Part 3 - she's still making those videos? No chance I'm wasting 23 minutes and 27 seconds of my life watching it.

    Damn autocorrect and typing while only waking up meaning I didn't spot that... >_<


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    She really should change her clothes, that shirt is probably beginning to smell at this stage. I dunno if Sera has watched any of these videos, but as a female, & an actual female gamer, I'd be interested to know if she makes of these vids.

    Now, off to save loads of women....


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer




    Makes some good points. I very much doubt that any game developers actively hate women and it's more than to being in their early twenties, male and the lack of maturity that goes with that.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    I very much doubt that any game developers actively hate women and it's more than to being in their early twenties, male and the lack of maturity that goes with that.

    This isn't about actively hating women, that's the whole point. It's just about all these deeply engrained cultural tropes that we can take active steps to address. Again, I'd tend to differ somewhat from the militant feminist view that there's a direct cause and effect relationship between representation and action, although there obviously is some anthropological truth in all that jazz (not well addressed by these videos, and that's easily her least convincing argument). To me, what's provocative and well-handled in her videos is the simple identification of deep-rooted systems and representational trends within gaming, and in that sense I think her argument is based on well-presented evidence. As said, I thought the indie game segment here was excellent and thought-provoking deconstruction. Like she points out repeatedly, we can identify and acknowledge flaws while still fundamentally appreciating the end product - it's the same with her arguments.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    It's still taken her three 30 minute videos to say not an awful lot and point out something that would be very obvious to any well adjusted gamer. All she has really done is said that the damsel in distress trope is painfully over used in games and her 'research' has involved finding lots of games were this is evident. Thanks for that statement of the obvious Anita but where is this all going and why is it a problem? Those are the real questions she should be asking but so far I feel they are beyond her capabilities of covering. What I'm saying is I wish someone without an agenda that can do a far better job of analysing this topic would do it. The fact that she is rising to and addressing the troll bait of the feminism vs facts videos shows a real lack of professionalism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    This all seems like an exploitation on Anita part for her personal gain and thee idealsation that videogames is making male gamers misogynist is ludicrous.

    There have been strong female characters in videogames for years but like almost every other medium forcing something just to appease to certain demographic hurts the art and the freedom on what we can or cannot choose because no matter what someone out there is going to be offended.


    Characters that come to mind that show womens dominance are

    Alys Brangwin ( Phantasy star 4 )
    Alis Landale (Phantasy star )
    Ellie (Last of Us )
    Elena (Uncharted)

    and not to forget maria from silent hill 2 who soul purpose is to torment and destroy james sunderland through out the whole game.

    Should their be more female protagonist ? yes but as long as it fits the developers game they want to make and not force something onto themselves.

    It does seem like she is doing this for own own agenda and videogames should be the least of peoples worries for how women are portrayed. Model magazines and actress advertisements have made alot of teenage girls starve themselves putting themselves down cause of what they are been brainwashed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    Add the first ones that come to my head to that list:
    Samus Aran
    Jill Valentine
    Alexandra Roivas
    Vanessa Z. Schneider


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Yes it's a male dominated industry but then again it's because women aren't studying game design or want to work in the games development industry and really that's due to a negative attitude and view that women have of videogames. I'm doing a game design course myself and only 1 of our devs is female and in the app dev course we have only 1 other female developer. It's not male dominated because women are being discriminated against, most developers would love to get more females in to give a different point of view, it's male dominated because of a lack of female graduates and a lack of females that are looking for work in the industry.

    Edit - now my post seems stupid because the previous poster deleted their post :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭richymcdermott


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Yes it's a male dominated industry but then again it's because women aren't studying game design or want to work in the games development industry and really that's due to a negative attitude and view that women have of videogames. I'm doing a game design course myself and only 1 of our devs is female and in the app dev course we have only 1 other female developer. It's not male dominated because women are being discriminated against, most developers would love to get more females in to give a different point of view, it's male dominated because of a lack of female graduates and a lack of females that are looking for work in the industry.

    Edit - now my post seems stupid because the previous poster deleted their post :(



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,391 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I'm amazed that noone's mentioned Alyx Vance as an example of a strong female character yet.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 10,154 Mod ✭✭✭✭Andrew76


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Yes it's a male dominated industry but then again it's because women aren't studying game design or want to work in the games development industry and really that's due to a negative attitude and view that women have of videogames. I'm doing a game design course myself and only 1 of our devs is female and in the app dev course we have only 1 other female developer. It's not male dominated because women are being discriminated against, most developers would love to get more females in to give a different point of view, it's male dominated because of a lack of female graduates and a lack of females that are looking for work in the industry.

    Edit - now my post seems stupid because the previous poster deleted their post :(

    What was the video about that he posted? Never heard of the chap's name, sounded Russian maybe. Shame he deleted is post.

    I'm not sure about the lack of female graduates unless you're referring to just your course or specific gaming related courses? Back when I did programming in college there were tons of females studying it, most of them very clever indeed.

    What would help is a female version of Notch, some female indie dev to come along and make a successful game (and hopefully not follow Mr. Fish's lead). Put women in gaming on the map so to speak.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Yes it's a male dominated industry but then again it's because women aren't studying game design or want to work in the games development industry and really that's due to a negative attitude and view that women have of videogames.

    I studied computer science with an eye towards videogame design for a bit. I love videogames very much. One of our two alternating second year programming lecturers was notorious for his belief that girls can't code. His attitude was clearly evident in the fact that in the room full of students, the ten or so females got a disproportionate amount of hassle when it came to new coding concepts or problems. Even the lads noticed it, and revelled in it - if somebody was going to be asked a tough question and get a hard time when they got it wrong, it was going to be one of the girls. Eventually, it became routine that the girls would avoid the lectures they knew he was involved in and do their own study, placing them at an obvious disadvantage when it came to exam time. In other words, his belief that girls aren't natural programmers was ultimately self fulfilling - it created such a passive aggressively hostile environment that they didn't want to be involved. He "won."

    And that's not an isolated anecdote. Women are, still, a minority in the gaming industry, and while an element of that is indeed likely because there is a perception that "games aren't for girls" - the industry itself is still doing its damnedest besides to squeeze that minority even further. Just as with TV and movies, fewer women behind the screen makes for fewer women on it - and fewer again being represented in any meaningful, useful context.

    The presence and quality of female characters in lead roles, lead roles that aren't directly reliant on other male authority characters, serve as distinct characters rather than bouncy boobsy baubles is actually declining. Again, the trajectory of Jill Valentine is a sad example of that. The new, jiggly titted Lightning is another. Lara Croft is a rare reversal of the trend.

    Women compose upwards of 40% of the online videogame market and that number's going up - but you'd never know it from the marketing, which either clearly prioritises males or even aims at them to an exclusionary extent. Yorkie style marketing.

    We keep being told, too, by industry idiots that "women don't sell" in videogames, but... based on what? Even considering how few female-led videogames there are out there, that statement doesn't actually seem to be backed up by anything tangible. It's a convenient excuse that sounds nice and rational and objective, but drill down into it and there doesn't actually seem to be any discernable relationship between female leads and IP successes at all. Yes, most of the big sellers are male-led - but most videogames period are male led, so that means SFA unless you weight it against those qualifying factors. It's a mantra that seems to have taken such a deep root that nobody ever really questions it, nobody ever really thinks too hard about it.

    What we do have numbers to support is in marketing - “Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually,” Zatkin said.

    "With under 30 games with exclusively female protagonists, and those games receiving much smaller marketing budgets than games with variable genders or male leads, it's hard to draw any conclusions about the impact of gender on sales or reviews. "


    A quote from that Kotaku article sums the problem there neatly -
    @smgrissom

    #1reasonwhy Because the metrics team was shocked to discover that girls liked our game at all. Weren't even trying for that "demographic"

    The videogame community, like many other arms of the entertainment industry, still has this weird psychological barrier where it views women as an optional, niche demographic. A nice bonus. Instead of what they are - 50% of their maximum potential paying public. 50%. It's absolute madness for somebody in a commercial arena to treat half the wallets waiting for them as an afterthought. Madness.

    Male viewers and players often don't see the problem just because they aren't tuned to see that "absence". Just as I, as a white person, am not always aware of the surreal lack of anybody of colour on something like Friends. A closer example of that would be how male viewers and reviewers hardly ever notice or comment on the giant reality failure at the heart of Modern Family that seems absolutely bizarre to female viewers, for instance, or how shocked they tend to be about how few movies pass the Bechdel test.

    It is absolutely bananas that a game series featuring over one hundred playable characters over ten years can feature only one female - nine years ago, btw - without that having long ago firing up the absurdity siren all over the landscape. To me, that just goes to show how conditioned we are to accept it, to the point that we don't even notice how crazy it is anymore. Meanwhile...

    The commonly accepted wisdom about videogaming and women is frequently false and often self fulfilling, but it's so often repeated that people treat it as true. That's not necessarily "hating" women in itself, it's just an unwillingness to think about it. And hey, it's kind of a bummer to think about, I get it. And that's not a diss on men, but maybe instead of automatically adopting a defensive position and trying to find reasons why she's wrong, it might be worth thinking about where she might have a point.

    Instead of saying "Well, videogames aren't the only market guilty of it, the effect probably isn't that bad!", and putting our energy into brushing it off as an issue, maybe we could just hold our hands up, agree that it's Bad Thing, and start thinking about where videogaming could start taking steps to sort its own gaff out rather than running to shore up the barricades in its defence.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    I studied computer science with an eye towards videogame design for a bit. I love videogames very much. One of our two alternating second year programming lecturers was notorious for his belief that girls can't code. His attitude was clearly evident in the fact that in the room full of students, the ten or so females got a disproportionate amount of hassle when it came to new coding concepts or problems. Even the lads noticed it, and revelled in it - if somebody was going to be asked a tough question and get a hard time when they got it wrong, it was going to be one of the girls. Eventually, it became routine that the girls would avoid the lectures they knew he was involved in and do their own study, placing them at an obvious disadvantage when it came to exam time. In other words, his belief that girls aren't natural programmers was ultimately self fulfilling - it created such a passive aggressively hostile environment that they didn't want to be involved. He "won."

    And that's not an isolated anecdote. Women are, still, a minority in the gaming industry, and while an element of that is indeed likely because there is a perception that "games aren't for girls" - the industry itself is still doing its damnedest besides to squeeze that minority even further. Just as with TV and movies, fewer women behind the screen makes for fewer women on it - and fewer again being represented in any meaningful, useful context.

    The presence and quality of female characters in lead roles, lead roles that aren't directly reliant on other male authority characters, serve as distinct characters rather than bouncy boobsy baubles is actually declining. Again, the trajectory of Jill Valentine is a sad example of that. The new, jiggly titted Lightning is another. Lara Croft is a rare reversal of the trend.

    Women compose upwards of 40% of the online videogame market and that number's going up - but you'd never know it from the marketing, which either clearly prioritises males or even aims at them to an exclusionary extent. Yorkie style marketing.

    We keep being told, too, by industry idiots that "women don't sell" in videogames, but... based on what? Even considering how few female-led videogames there are out there, that statement doesn't actually seem to be backed up by anything tangible. It's a convenient excuse that sounds nice and rational and objective, but drill down into it and there doesn't actually seem to be any discernable relationship between female leads and IP successes at all. Yes, most of the big sellers are male-led - but most videogames period are male led, so that means SFA unless you weight it against those qualifying factors. It's a mantra that seems to have taken such a deep root that nobody ever really questions it, nobody ever really thinks too hard about it.

    What we do have numbers to support is in marketing - “Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually,” Zatkin said.

    "With under 30 games with exclusively female protagonists, and those games receiving much smaller marketing budgets than games with variable genders or male leads, it's hard to draw any conclusions about the impact of gender on sales or reviews. "


    A quote from that Kotaku article sums the problem there neatly -



    The videogame community, like many other arms of the entertainment industry, still has this weird psychological barrier where it views women as an optional, niche demographic. A nice bonus. Instead of what they are - 50% of their maximum potential paying public. 50%. It's absolute madness for somebody in a commercial arena to treat half the wallets waiting for them as an afterthought. Madness.

    Male viewers and players often don't see the problem just because they aren't tuned to see that "absence". Just as I, as a white person, am not always aware of the surreal lack of anybody of colour on something like Friends. A closer example of that would be how male viewers and reviewers hardly ever notice or comment on the giant reality failure at the heart of Modern Family that seems absolutely bizarre to female viewers, for instance, or how shocked they tend to be about how few movies pass the Bechdel test.

    It is absolutely bananas that a game series featuring over one hundred playable characters over ten years can feature only one female - nine years ago, btw - without that having long ago firing up the absurdity siren all over the landscape. To me, that just goes to show how conditioned we are to accept it, to the point that we don't even notice how crazy it is anymore. Meanwhile...

    The commonly accepted wisdom about videogaming and women is frequently false and often self fulfilling, but it's so often repeated that people treat it as true. That's not necessarily "hating" women in itself, it's just an unwillingness to think about it. And hey, it's kind of a bummer to think about, I get it. And that's not a diss on men, but maybe instead of automatically adopting a defensive position and trying to find reasons why she's wrong, it might be worth thinking about where she might have a point.

    Instead of saying "Well, videogames aren't the only market guilty of it, the effect probably isn't that bad!", and putting our energy into brushing it off as an issue, maybe we could just hold our hands up, agree that it's Bad Thing, and start thinking about where videogaming could start taking steps to sort its own gaff out rather than running.

    Thanks. In a single post you've said far more than Anita has in her three videos. I so far haven't noticed any discriminating evidence against women in the industry but then I've only been in it 9 months and again it's an isolated case. My problem is Anita isn't and hasn't really adressed anything you've just mentioned and I find this kind of stuff far more important than pointing out the games where female characters are treated poorly.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    The commonly accepted wisdom about videogaming and women is frequently false and often self fulfilling, but it's so often repeated that people treat it as true. That's not necessarily "hating" women in itself, it's just an unwillingness to think about it. And hey, it's kind of a bummer to think about, I get it. And that's not a diss on men, but maybe instead of automatically adopting a defensive position and trying to find reasons why she's wrong, it might be worth thinking about where she might have a point.

    Instead of saying "Well, videogames aren't the only market guilty of it, the effect probably isn't that bad!", and putting our energy into brushing it off as an issue, maybe we could just hold our hands up, agree that it's Bad Thing, and start thinking about where videogaming could start taking steps to sort its own gaff out rather than running to shore up the barricades in its defence.

    This, I think, is part of the fundamental concerns I have with the receptions the videos have received. Even before the videos were put up, Anita was subject to repeated rape threats and other forms of extreme, aggressive sexism - even if this was from a very small minority, IMO it terrifyingly brings to the forefront the kind of thing that happens when anyone even suggests trying to confront or discuss some of these issues. Even so many much more well-adjusted gamers have been so dismissive I'm left a tad concerned.

    To me, the benefits of identifying the tropes discussed by Anita are so apparent and in more general terms raising awareness of how much more exciting gaming would be if we didn't just keep falling back on the same old systems and representations. Confronting them could only possibly making gaming a far more interesting, welcoming and varied medium for absolutely everyone, benefiting even those who have no interest in more in-depth gaming criticism or analysis. That's why I have to admit to a little frustration when I see the points laughed off or tossed aside, or even dismissed on the basis of one or two points while ignoring twenty much more intriguing others.

    Counter her arguments, disagree with her approach, filter out some of her more militant viewpoints: as much as I appreciate the series, I do not think Anita Sarkeesian is not the greatest thing to ever happen to journalism, games or otherwise (I am disappointed how few other writers are willing to analyse games on this sort of level, though) and rebuttals and responses are only to be encouraged. But it's absolutely important to not dismiss or ignore the issues she's brought to the fore, for reasons positive or negative.
    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    I so far haven't noticed any discriminating evidence against women in the industry but then I've only been in it 9 months and again it's an isolated case. My problem is Anita isn't and hasn't really adressed anything you've just mentioned and I find this kind of stuff far more important than pointing out the games where female characters are treated poorly.

    There's a significant difference between criticism of an industry and content-based criticism, even though they are interrelated. This series is based primarily on content analysis (even if it takes some brief and occasionally underwhelming sidesteps into anthropology / more sociological feminism), as is the case in other more evolved cultural criticism spheres. It's all well and good calling for an expose or detailed analysis of the industry itself - and, hands up, I'd love to read / watch that too, no question - but that needs to exist beside discussion and analysis of the 'text' itself. A feminist from an academic background is going to be primarily concerned with the latter, while I'd expect a very different approach from a site like Gamesutra (although they do dip into more critical spheres from time to time). I guess this is a fundamental difference between you and I: I'm coming from this solely as a player, whereas you also have a more pronounced interest in the mechanisms of the development industry (as well as, of course, being a player too).

    Both forms of writing can exist side by side, and some fantastic journalists can weave the two strands together expertly. But in film writing for example I know there's very often the great publications and writers who focus on industry matters, and the great writers and publications that focus on the films themselves. I'm sure I don't even need to point out I come from a more cultural criticism background (I'd be more willing to commit my time to a 5,000 word essay on a director I like than a 5,000 word investigative journalism piece on the NSA, even though I'd fully acknowledge the latter is more important to society at large) but I think both approaches are an important part of a healthy landscape.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    MY only problem is that it's a really bad thesis. She's presenting it as a sociological study and even doing a ciriculum at the end of it for teach it. All she has done is pointed out the blatantly obvious, there's sexism trends in the portrayal of videogames. That isn't new or interesting however. It's why this is and it's social implications that are important and she hasn't addressed this at all. All she is giving is her opinion on the matter, an opinion that she has not backed up with any form of research or sociological study. It's just terrible scientific research. It would be like a dissertation on say Birth of a Nation pointing out how racist it was but not explaining why it was like this by looking at society at the time and the social impact such racism had on popular culture. It would be a pointless and vapid statement of the obvious.

    Even worse than that is how she is presenting it. Stating she is a feminist shows she is taking this from a feminist point of view with all the ulterior motivations and preconceptions that entails. If this was a proper scientific study it would be from an objective point of view and her conclusions wouldn't be drawn for preconceptions but from research. Even if she is approaching it objectively it's very unprofessional and damaging to her research it state this.

    Another worrying thing is despite having a masters thesis (I think it's a masters) she hasn't backed up any of her conclusions with anything from peer reviewed journals. Sure there's probably very little on games but there's mountains on sexism in film and literature. If she is going to be taken seriously she needs to back it up because otherwise it's just her opinion she is spouting which means nothing.

    I'm not dismissing anything she is bringing up, there's a hell of a lot there that could be discussed or researched and would be very interesting and prehaps eye opening. My problem is that Anita is just a dreadful researcher and it's very worrying that it seems she is going into this without an objective view that will colour any findings. You might as well be getting a an opinion on evolution from a creationist.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    If this was a proper scientific study it would be from an objective point of view and her conclusions wouldn't be drawn for preconceptions but from research. Even if she is approaching it objectively it's very unprofessional and damaging to her research it state this.

    Ah, but it is not a proper scientific study because feminism is not a science. What exactly it is is a huge question - an ideology, a cultural movement, whatever, but it's not a hard science. Cultural theory is very much based on readings and interpretations as well as 'evidence'. They're very different stands, and while certainly there are verifiable scientific methods involved in communications or cultural research, read a thesis from a feminist graduate and a chemistry graduate and you have two completely different beasts on your hands.
    Another worrying thing is despite having a masters thesis (I think it's a masters) she hasn't backed up any of her conclusions with anything from peer reviewed journals. Sure there's probably very little on games but there's mountains on sexism in film and literature. If she is going to be taken seriously she needs to back it up because otherwise it's just her opinion she is spouting which means nothing.

    Peer reviewed journals? In a youtube series? I think this is where our expectations vary wildly. Yes, there is some basic sociology and evidence gathering here, but it's not a dry academic paper - it's meant as an argumentative piece directed at a mass audience, not a piece of peer-reviewed research. I have a masters, for example, but I don't typically cite peer-reviewed articles when writing a film analysis, even though some the ideas I might draw on are from an academic background. Anita's argument to me is "here's some clips, here's my reading" and that's a perfectly valid line of argument given the context.

    A Youtube video series is point blank not a journal article - yes, it will draw on some general theory and existing research (cultural theory is not completely divorced from the sciences when it comes to research) but as someone from a science background I definitely think you're expecting something very, very different than I am from a media & communications background. Stating her allegiances in no uncertain terms gives her the leeway to make some personal commentary because she's working in a completely different sphere than academia, and aiming at a completely different audience. More philosophical arenas like feminism are never going to strictly conform to the methodology in more rigidly scientific fields - and we wouldn't have as vibrant and engaging an intellectual space if they were forced to.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Well while I'd accept personal opinion on a film analysis this is a completely different beast and if it's not really approached in a scientific manner then any 'research' she is conducting isn't really research and it doesn't rise above any other ranty opinion piece on youtube which are a dime a dozen. I really don't see where all that kickstarter money is going because it's very poorly researched, if you could even call it that.

    Maybe I am looking for more than just being entertained. So far all I've seen from Anita's series that cost so much is 3 ranting opinion pieces that say absolutely nothing about the issue, and offer no conclusions or evidence to back them up. It means absolutely nothing. It might as well be another Angry Joe opinion piece.

    As for bringing in peer reviewed journals, you can just cite some stuff to back herself up, she doesn't have to bore us all to death or at least give links in the description. That wouldn't be too hard and would actually show some real research was actually done because if you're not backing up your findings with peer reviewed papers it's not research, something Anita seems to be so proud of. Sure it's meant to appeal to the mainstream but that also doesn't mean it has to be awful as well. Daragh O'Brien on Science Club is doing a good job of showing how that can be done.

    Maybe I'm just annoyed that she is getting so much exposure for doing such a bad job on a topic that would interest me. Again as each video appears it seems to be a huge missed oppurtunity.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,129 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    You keep mentioning evidence and research... What exactly are you looking for may I ask? To me, she's laying our a thesis - thus far, "the damsel in distress is an overused trope in videogames" and some commentary on the same - and providing 100+ example of why this is so and signifies a trend (plus exceptions and all that jazz). Yes, it has taken her over an hour to get there (too long, no doubt), but there is evidence there in terms of content analysis which is very much the focus. Certainly if she kept pushing a sociological angle - like if she kept coming back to a "violent video game player = wife beater" slant and didn't back it up with hard facts - I'd be right with you, and I'd also love to see her give more time to exceptions (but time is clearly a premium here). As is, I think she's done a good job of laying out the various complexities of the damsel in distress trope which is the core focus. We obviously disagree on its effectiveness and indeed its worthiness.

    And I can only stress once again I do not think her presentation is flawless (her attempts at humour particularly have been fairly awful, and some arguments are unconvincing of fade into nothingness). Certainly if a more articulate writer or presenter came along with a more robust analysis Id be right there for that ****.

    But here's the somewhat depressing rub: there are very, very few journalists out there addressing these topics in the depth they deserve, so flaws and all (not that there aren't some, of course, and a couple Im quite fond of), Anita is hopefully paving the way for a more open and hopefully more effective discourse. I have no doubt there are wonderful voices out there, either hidden or yet to emerge. Lets hope eventually they'll be gifted the stage to robustly analyse what's wrong and right with gaming: whether that's gender representations or the myriad of other worthy topics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    It is absolutely bananas that a game series featuring over one hundred playable characters over ten years can feature only one female - nine years ago, btw - without that having long ago firing up the absurdity siren all over the landscape. To me, that just goes to show how conditioned we are to accept it, to the point that we don't even notice how crazy it is anymore. Meanwhile...



    Call of Duty: Ghosts Features Female Soldiers in Multiplayer

    Welp, it's a start.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,858 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    It's one step forward.

    Here's a massive running jump backwards:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-08-16-fan-harassed-writer-jennifer-hepler-leaves-bioware

    Assholes.

    I'd hope anita brings this up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    From the source above,
    She had received death threats, had her family and children threatened and found herself the figurehead of a raging debate about how fans treat game makers in an age of unprecedented access brought on chiefly by Twitter.

    Absolutely sickening.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 34,534 CMod ✭✭✭✭CiDeRmAn


    Yeah, find that sort of thing disgraceful regardless of the gender or creed of the person on the receiving end.

    I wonder what kind of abuse those working in game development come in for overall, especially from losers who imagine the net lends them anonymity, and hence the nasty crap they spout, imagining impunity, scumbags every one of them.


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