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Shed build - help

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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Before I can clad it I needed to sort the ground splash problem on the uphill side of the shed since grass won't grow up to the shed due to tree shading, and I need to stop leaf fall from going under the shed and bridging the gap to the membrane.

    So: a bit of digging, corten steel lawn edging Tek-screwed to battens, sand for drainage and levelling, weed membrane to stop sand washing under the edging, gravel stablising grid, a couple of hundred kilos of "brown shingle", and....

    Looks a bit weird but should blend in once I've butted a bit of soil up to the edge and re-sown the grass.

    Now, I'm really going to make the door now...

    5-xahc8-KX.jpg

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  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Shaunoc


    Very neat. Kevin McCloud will be around for interview


  • Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shaunoc wrote: »
    Very neat. Kevin McCloud will be around for interview

    Ah now, steady on. Kevin's 60, so he'll likely have retired by the time Lumen's shed is ready for a camera crew to visit. :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Any Shed update ? its 2020, we need some news :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »
    Any Shed update ? its 2020, we need some news :)

    I tried to make a door and door frame from rough softwood construction timber, a tracksaw and a trimmer router and it went badly. The door did close but not with any precision.

    I've been sulking for a few months about my poor carpentry skills, and then I watched this video yesterday on what it actually takes in terms of skills and tools to do the thing I was trying to do

    Now I feel better about myself. So I think I'll just get a joinery company to do the door and window frames so I can finish the rest.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Lumen wrote: »
    I tried to make a door and door frame from rough softwood construction timber, a tracksaw and a trimmer router and it went badly. The door did close but not with any precision.

    I've been sulking for a few months about my poor carpentry skills, and then I watched this video yesterday on what it actually takes in terms of skills and tools to do the thing I was trying to do

    Now I feel better about myself. So I think I'll just get a joinery company to do the door and window frames so I can finish the rest.


    Nice!

    Ya doors are a bitch if you are going for air tight stuff. You need a Planner Thicknesser, Jointer, Router or Biscuit jointer. Lots of fun.


    Meant to ask, for the Wood Fibre insulation you used, Was it Steico or what brand? how did you find its density. I see you screwed your cladding lengths to it. Was that into the wood fibre or through to the studs on the other side.

    Presently going through porch planning and wanted to use Wood Fibre because its easy to work and breathable. Some sections will have existing brick wall on it and need that to breathe out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »
    Meant to ask, for the Wood Fibre insulation you used, Was it Steico or what brand? how did you find its density. I see you screwed your cladding lengths to it. Was that into the wood fibre or through to the studs on the other side.

    Presently going through porch planning and wanted to use Wood Fibre because its easy to work and breathable. Some sections will have existing brick wall on it and need that to breathe out.

    GUTEX Ultratherm 100mm on roof, GUTEX Multitherm 80mm on walls, fixed with Spax 6x200/65 partial thread T-Star plus Wirox screws.

    https://www.baunativ.de/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=1086

    The screws go through battens on one side and studs on the other, so there's a fair bit of clamping force, plus enough density for the screw body to resist movement, and I need that resistance because there's nothing holding up the woodfibre from below, it's just clamped and screwed.

    If you want to screw just into the woodfibre you'd need a big fat plate head, mushroom fixing or maybe something like an express nail.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Shaunoc


    Good time to get stuck back in to shed?


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Doesn't time fly!

    In January I was sulking about my lack of joinery skills and considering paying a professional to finish it. Then I made a chicken coop with hinges and a routed sliding door thing, and it all worked, and I stopped sulking and decided that I'd do it all myself because....DIY.

    So, baby steps....and then big steps.

    As usual I made this far more complicated than necessary, albeit everything on a 1/10 slope tends to be tricky

    I initially thought of resting the steps on a kind of concrete pinth. So I made a bit of concrete and reminded myself that I hate concrete, so I dug it up and decided to have the steps all wood, rising out of the ground, and to use epoxy and gravel drainage to protect the wood below ground.

    I could have used fancy hardwood, but given the experimental nature I didn't want to trash a load of expensive wood, so I made it out of standard planed 9x2 softwood.

    There are no screws, it's all routed and glued, then mounted from underneath on a couple of upside down 6" nails, so if I need to re-do anything I can just dig out the bottom bit and lift off the top bit.

    The insulation and membrane forms a run off underneath the top step, which is level with the threshold +/- 1mm, or will be when I've added an 18mm finish board to the threshold.

    Getting the stringers to meet flush with the queen posts and the top step level with the threshold was hard.

    Anyway, they're structurally perfect but pig ugly, so I'll sand them again and do a few coats of danish oil or something. If all else fails I'll just paint them black and put some cedar or larch treads on to fancy it up.

    Next stage: re-make the door frame and door. Then windows (yes, I'm making them myself). Then internal floor. Then cladding. Then something with the floating deck.

    Click for big versions.

    Relatedly, I know the gravel and corten edging looks sh!t, but I'll return to that when everything else is done.

    femi5Da.jpg 0leVDrV.jpg 0qnVwDo.jpg GNCB5yh.jpg 7MkCHU7.jpg qSytY90.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,924 ✭✭✭whizbang


    That routing is class..

    I would like to see the gravel edging built up level with the base of shed..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    whizbang wrote: »
    That routing is class..

    I would like to see the gravel edging built up level with the base of shed..

    Not really possible, there's over a foot difference in height between the high side and low side! Whatever I do, something is going to look wonky.

    It might look better once I've raised the soil to the top of the edging, grown some grass and painted the ground screws black.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    What, no porch deck! i expected a porch deck with handmade seat swing :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »
    What, no porch deck! i expected a porch deck with handmade seat swing :D

    :D

    Yeah, I'm currently torturing myself about whether to attempt a door opening on to the deck, cos otherwise I'll have to go out, down, and up another set of steps to use the deck. I really hate hinged things.

    I sought the advice of my local decorating shop about the steps, he suggested decking stain with embedded grit, but it's only available in very dark colours, and I'm not quite ready for black steps yet.

    So if it ever stops raining I'm going to see what I can do with Danish oil, a random orbital sander and some kind of buffing drill attachment (Halfords?).


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Been quite busy late. Couple of posts incoming....

    First, the door. I previously made a frame from construction framing timber, which was a terrible idea, and hung a cheap B&Q door. It looked bad and didn't close properly.

    Whilst taking a break from Shed things I made a chicken coop, partly using plywood joined with glue and brad nails. It was a nice experience, so I decided to continue the experiment and make a door frame and door out of plywood.

    Now, plywood comes in various grades. The "WBP" and "Marine" grading actually applies to the glue layers, not the wood plies. Marine is the same as WBP except that it is guaranteed to be free of voids in the glue layers.

    The marine ply you can get from builders merchants is usually not proper boatbuilding quality, and that's mostly down to the wood used in the plies. Some of it is "hardwood faced", but as soon as you cut it you're through to the softwood plies and that can cause issues. For that reason it is often marked "not suitable for cutting" or some such.

    So I decided to go for Joubert Marine ply from paneldespot (http://www.paneldepot.ie/sheet_ply_marine.html), which is Okoume hardwood throughout, and I've laminated it myself with Titebond II, which is worse than the glue used in the plies themselves but ought to be OK.

    I haven't decided what to finish it with. I have some outdoor satin varnish, but for now I've put on a couple of coats of Danish oil.

    Anyway, the plywood allows me to create interesting features, like the removable "locking module" which I can slide out if I want to change the arrangement of locking things.

    Making a door and frame with acceptable tolerances in a opening which is out of true in every conceivable way is hard. There are various wood shims which will eventually be covered by some combination of tape, filler, glue and cladding.

    I ended up with 2-3mm clearance on all sides, with consistency within 1mm on each given side. It's fine.

    The requirement for the locking mechanism was "convenient security". I want to be able to get in and out without keys, and know that if the door is closed then casual robbery is impossible.

    So in July 2019 I punted some money at an Indiegogo crowd funded smart lock called "Fido", which arrived in November 2019.

    It's controlled with a smartphone app called "YEEUU", and a company of that name seems to be trading sort-of through Facebook and indiegogo, but I don't know whether it's actually for sale at this point.

    There are fobs as backup, but the usual way is thumbprint recognition. Yay, the Chinese government has my thumb prints! But it works.

    Here's a video.



    The door obviously isn't finished yet, the proper stops still have to go on and I need to fill the void on the right with insulation and add the last sheet of ply, fill the tops and bottoms, and add draught stripping.

    The odd split/recessed design on the front serves several purposes: it shelters the electronic lock from drips, and it allows 100mm woodfibre insulation over about 2/3 of the door area whilst keeping the lock-side to about 50mm which means it doesn't catch against the frame when opening, and allows "normal" locks to be fitted.

    Oh, and I added a Nest doorbell which does remote two-way video/audio, face recognition, intruder detection and stuff. That's wired through a bell transformer.

    Full size pics on imgur https://imgur.com/a/stAnpqi

    VcgbRDu.jpgjbZzWJ0.jpgkTjhpLT.jpgOCyzBaH.jpgPjOkpYQ.jpgyDfk6pE.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    On to lighting.

    It would have been more sensible to focus on windows as a source of light, but after the pain of making a door I needed a bit of a break from things with hinges. Plus, my boards username justifies a bit of effort.

    I suffer a lot from lack of energy in the winter. I wouldn't necessarily call it full blown S.A.D., but I get nothing done except work and sleep when we're not on daylight savings time.

    Now that LEDs are so powerful, I wondered whether I could create daylight levels in the Shed, to delay the onset of whatever hormone crap has me sleepy at 7pm in winter.

    So, what are the most powerful LEDs on sale? I found some 24v "tunable white" strips which are rated at 19.2W/m power consumption and claim to put out 2760 lumens/m. (*)

    https://www.hiline-lighting.co.uk/gb/tunable-white-led-tape/562-tunable-white-led-strip-120-2in1-ip00-5060440713859.html

    If I ran these LED strips along the upper wall plate, I could get maybe 24,000 lumens of output, which is equivalent to about 1.5kW of incandescent lighting, and if I bounced the light off the ceiling it wouldn't look like an operating theatre. Right?

    I wired each strip differently. One strip runs continuously through 10mm holes in the rafters. That will probably cause overheating and premature LED burnout, so the second strip was cut into 500mm sections and soldered with triple-core connecting wire running through the same type of 10mm hole. I'll see which lives longer. The strips sit in alu profiles which do a nice job of diffusing the light when looking directly at the strips, which will be important when the mezzanine floor goes in.

    The LEDs are powered by a 300W transformer and controlled by a wired Zigbee controller and a handy little remote with various colour temperature controls and stored presets.

    The effect is decently bright but not quite as daylighty as I was hoping. A free Android app tells me that I'm getting about 100lux with the door closed, and although I'm not sure it's accurate, it's about the same lux level as my one of the corridors in my house in summer daytime.

    I might add some more task lighting later on down the line. At that stage my winter heat requirements will probably be met by simply turning on the lights.

    (*) I've since discovered that there are LED strips twice as powerful as this, but I'm not changing them now.



    The following pics were taken with the door closed and as mentioned, there are no windows yet.

    Full size pics: https://imgur.com/a/IMWZFOS

    K6FVoyO.jpguFwQDs3.jpgD1t4kW7.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint




  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »

    I bought 12mm EDPM rubber strips (3mm and 6mm) and was planning to stick them to the 12mm door stops. That sorts out top and sides.

    So this is for the bottom? I have some kind of strip I bought from B&Q.

    https://www.diy.com/departments/diall-brown-self-adhesive-draught-seal-l-6m/1802901_BQ.prd

    Are those router bits for that sort of stripping?


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Lumen wrote: »
    I bought 12mm EDPM rubber strips (3mm and 6mm) and was planning to stick them to the 12mm door stops. That sorts out top and sides.

    So this is for the bottom? I have some kind of strip I bought from B&Q.

    https://www.diy.com/departments/diall-brown-self-adhesive-draught-seal-l-6m/1802901_BQ.prd

    Are those router bits for that sort of stripping?

    tbh, the effort you've gone into the door and the insulation, id just a rebate a weather strip for a nice flush finish inside the frame. Strips stuck to the front of door or frame will not look as well with the finish youve done on the door (expensive ply) and they wont be as good for sealing either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »
    tbh, the effort you've gone into the door and the insulation, id just a rebate a weather strip for a nice flush finish inside the frame. Strips stuck to the front of door or frame will not look as well with the finish youve done on the door (expensive ply) and they wont be as good for sealing either.

    Can you recommend a specific type of weatherstrip? I'm looking at pages of them and can't figure it out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Lumen wrote: »
    Can you recommend a specific type of weatherstrip? I'm looking at pages of them and can't figure it out.

    On that im at an array wall of ones the same as you. Seen many variants used on builds on youtube and the likes, push strips, double strips, single strips.

    I think if i recall the restoration couple he used a nice clean one on his Oak door that he built himself, looked really professional and clean.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Maybe this?

    https://ie.rs-online.com/web/p/door-seals/1752561/

    image.png

    ...and then rout an 8mm slot, maybe 2mm deep?


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »
    On that im at an array wall of ones the same as you. Seen many variants used on builds on youtube and the likes, push strips, double strips, single strips.

    I think if i recall the restoration couple he used a nice clean one on his Oak door that he built himself, looked really professional and clean.

    Ah, at about 5:50

    edit: no, this attempt looks like a failure, must be another vid



  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    OK, so they push into what look like square-edged slots in the door stops.

    Only the bottom one didn't work, but having an exposed seal on the threshold is madness when you can just recess it into the bottom of the door.

    Screenshot-from-2020-07-28-16-12-30.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    So I finished the door this weekend and tidied up some electrics, in between pulling ceilings down in my house. Too dark for pics when I finished today. WINTER IS COMING.

    It turns out that the expensive and beautiful D-section EDPM rubber "brush strips" are unsuitable for use on door stops because they're so elastic that the door bounces off them unless you slam it.

    So I ended up using the cheaper EDPM foam strips. LOL.

    Still have the threshold and top stop to make.

    It all works beautifully, like some kind of plywood fortress, but this is the first and last door I'm ever making. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I haven't given up. :D

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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    It's a big week in Shed world and I thought I'd write a post to get my head straight.

    The triple glazed IGUs (insulated glass units) for the French doors and picture window are being manufactured as I type this, and I've materials arriving to make a floating mezzanine floor.

    Figuring out how to make windows has been one of the more demanding aspects of this project.

    Putty is a thing of the past except for heritage projects, there are various "glazing systems" used now, which use different permutations of hybrid sealants and adhesive glazing tape.

    I am going for something close to the Hodgson "D3 Drained Security Glazing System", which uses adhesive tapes under compression to provide a watertight (and hopefully airtight) seal, and sealant only for the frame joints.

    image.png

    It's critical to ensure that water doesn't collect around the base of the IGU even if the seals fail, as that will cause the unit to fail, so I'll be drilling holes through the bottom of the frames, draining to the outside behind the cladding. This is made possible because I made the frames such that the glass is located "outboard" of the walls, with the battened cladding ultimately coming out flush with the frames.

    The glass will be located and supported by hardwood blocks which come in various thicknesses. I have them all, they're cheap and should be handy for general shimming jobs.

    image.png

    I think professionally made windows use glazing pins to locate the glass, but I'm not planning on using those. This may prove a mistake.

    I have a set of of vacuum lifters from Screwfix plus some super tough glazing shovels to help manouvre the IGUs, which are absurdly heavy. Both the French doors and picture window have a a 6/14/6/14/6 specification (6mm glass panes with 14mm warm edge spacers), so 18mm of glass in total, and the picture window unit should weigh close to 100kg.

    The tape is interesting. It's quite high density and to achieve a watertight seal it requires 20% compression, which requires 1.1kg of force per cm2 of tape, which works out at about almost 800kg of force. Yeah, so that seems like a bit of a challenge.

    But interestingly, triple glazing is relatively cheap. I'm getting about 3.5sqm and it's only costing about 700 quid.

    PXL-20201012-103651481.jpg

    As for the mezzanine floor, that's going to be made of 3x3 PAO sandwiched between 9mm birch ply with plenty of blocking to spread the load. I have no idea whether it will be stiff enough, but I'm planning to incorporate a floating structural ladder anchored to the ridge beam to help out.

    It should all be over by the end of the month, bar the cladding. Hopefully I will still have all my fingers.

    I am deep down the rabbit hole here. If anyone has any tips, I'm all ears. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Triple glazing is in.

    The French doors were easy enough. The picture window was a two person job so I called in a favour before the household visit lockdown came in at midnight. :)

    As expected, generating sufficient compression for the glazing tape on the big pane was tricky, required the use of reversed clamps and large bits of wood spanning the inside of the shed, applying maybe 100kg of pressure to each of about ten areas on the perimeter in turn. Once it stuck though, it stuck.

    I'm not sure I like the glazing tape that much. It's certainly clean, but I can't help thinking that the skilled application of some black Tek 7 might have achieved the same or better results. Or an incredible mess.

    I still have to add the inside stops and seals, but it's now a balmy 20C in there with a small convection heater on lowest setting. It'll take some time to warm up the structure (a couple of tonnes of wood inside the external insulation) and then I'll gather some data from the Govee monitors to work out how well it's performing.

    One useful thing for anyone doing this for the first time like me: account for the fact that the rubber sealant on the glazed units protrudes unevenly from the edges of the glass for 1-2mm. This means that whereas I'd planned on using 5mm (bottom) and 3mm (top and side) setting blocks I ended up with 5mm and 1mm or nothing. It's fine, it works, but it was bloody close.

    Anyway, I'm delighted with the results. Probably cost me about €1200 all in for the plywood, glazing, tape and tooling. Dunno what that would cost new, but it would be more.

    Nearly there...

    3CV42O9.jpg

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    More and bigger pics here: https://imgur.com/a/TOeLJFx


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,714 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    how are you finishing the external plywood edges. I notice exposed ply edging outside in your bottom image shot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    listermint wrote: »
    how are you finishing the external plywood edges. I notice exposed ply edging outside in your bottom image shot.

    The edges are sealed with a couple of coats of yacht varnish. I tried it also on the flat sections but didn't like the satin finish so I took it off and switched to danish oil for those. I'll do some experiments with Textrol soon.

    The windows are fairly well sheltered anyway, with tree shelter blocking wind and the gutter blocking rain from above.

    Time will tell whether it will hold up.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭karlitob


    Lumen wrote: »
    The edges are sealed with a couple of coats of yacht varnish. I tried it also on the flat sections but didn't like the satin finish so I took it off and switched to danish oil for those. I'll do some experiments with Textrol soon.

    The windows are fairly well sheltered anyway, with tree shelter blocking wind and the gutter blocking rain from above.

    Time will tell whether it will hold up.

    I used textrol on an outdoor workbench recently with a wide brush. I have to say - I found it very hard to work with. It needs to go on wet on wet and you apply as many coats as it can absorb. I put two coats on but it started to dry fairly quickly so I was only a quarter way through the job before it dried It looks quite streaky now (it’s in grey). It’s fine - it needs another coat Or two and I’m sure it’ll look better. Just thought I’d give my experience. And I’m fairly handy at the painting - quite enjoy it.

    Have you used it before.


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