Wind farm for the Midlands

Waestrel · 17-07-2012 3:16pm #1

heard this on RTE news this afternoon

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0717/wind-farm-firm-to-create-2-000-jobs-by-2018.html#article

Thoughts? It is unconnected to the Irish grid, being purely an "export" windfarm. It seems odd, but considering how many of our industries are purely export (intel, Pfizer) not to mention out farming exports too, it makes sense.

Since the midlands is not a huge area of tourism, surely it is the best place for such a development? that said, the place will be soggy with NIMBYs very soon i reckon.

pljudge321 · 17-07-2012 3:36pm

I remain extremely skeptical of these plans for reasons I've outlined in some of the other threads. For one have a look at that €1.2 billion. Assuming this means per year and a price of €60 per MWh this requires roughly 7.6 GW of wind, which is more than three times our current installed capacity and thats assuming a generous capacity factor for the midlands.

Secondly wind is a variable resource so its power output varies between close to nothing and close to its rated power depending on the weather. If you are exporting purely by a HVDC link how do you size the link to accommodate for this. VSC HVDC is the only technology that could be compatible with such a scheme and that is currently limited to around 500 MW per station. So you can either size the link to be able to take all the power and massively over-engineer on your capital costs or you an size it for an average value and throw away the rest of the energy.

Finally I'd like to know what a 'contract to supply €1.2bn of electricity to Britain's National Grid UK' actually entails.

mbur · 18-07-2012 12:27am

The question I ask is why are we so delighted to export irish wind energy when we are not self sufficient in electrical energy. This talk of a dedecated link to the UK suggests that none of this project's output will ever hit the local market where it is sorely needed. We should be attacking the country's gas bill before crowing about our energy exports. Why not start building the industry here to use this resource in this country?

Oldtree · 18-07-2012 5:47pm

Must be a combination of the subsidys here and the premiums to be charged to the UK thats driving this! Contracts signed already.

I did like their proposal to underground the line infastructure along roads, begs the question why the ESB can't do that too, or insist on it as a condition for grid connection.

SeanW · 18-07-2012 7:21pm

Underground lines are more expensive to build and maintain, and require chemical treatments that are not environmentally friendly. It also means they'll need to dig up the roads from the Midlands to Dublin to provide maintenance for this thing >_<

In this case, every silver lining has a big dark cloud behind it ...

Oldtree · 19-07-2012 2:41pm

SeanW wrote: »

Underground lines are more expensive to build and maintain, and require chemical treatments that are not environmentally friendly. It also means they'll need to dig up the roads from the Midlands to Dublin to provide maintenance for this thing >_<

In this case, every silver lining has a big dark cloud behind it ...

I had understood that they were indeed more expensive in the short term but not in the long term, therefore companys with shareholders interested in short term returns will not invest for the long term.

I also understood that the plan here was to dig alongside the roads not on the roads itself.

Packet · 28-07-2012 4:02pm

The Element Power http://www.elpower.com/element-power-accepts-first-grid-connection-uk-ireland web site describes it as a grid connection for 3GW that could supply up to 10 Terawatt hours.

10 TW.h spread out over one year is equivalent to a constant 1,141 MW generation capacity [= 10x10^12W.h/(365d*24h.d^-1)]

That implies a capacity factor of 38% (1,141/3000) which is reasonable, particularly for the latest large turbines they say they'll be using.

This page http://www.greenwire.ie/greenwire-project/ on the "Greenwire" project says two interconnectors, each of 2.5GW are planned.
Higher capacity HVDC lines have already been installed elsewhere in the world.

The €1.2 billion in exports per annum looks ambitious but it is pitched as competing against more expensive off-shore wind for connection to the GB grid.

The implied cost for the UK including ROCs is

€1.2 * 10^9 / 10 * 10^9 kW.h = €0.12 per kW.h

Renewable Obligation Certificates

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/renewable_ener/renew_obs/renew_obs.aspx

might contribute about €0.04 per kW.h of that.

That puts it at a price level that is fairly competitive particularly when measured against building new conventional generation, if that were an option, which it
isn't as the UK is trying to get to its renewable target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source.

Additionally they claim the cost savings to the UK consumer from this on-shore in Ireland with HVDC undersea over sourcing the power from off-shore wind are €9 billion over 25 years. The UK is also planning a lot of off-shore (e.g. 2.2GW South East of the Isle of Man). They probably want to balance out the types and geographic diversity of the 30 GW nameplate of renewable supply they're trying to get on their grid by 2020.

10 TW.h over 25 years = 250 TW.h

That implies the benefit claimed for it over off-shore per 1kW.h is about €9 /250 = €0.036.

For the above reasons I think it looks like a very good project.

Silvics · 29-07-2012 2:25am

Two years on since planning granted for the largest community windfarm in Ireland, be built in west Clare.....where's the damned grid connection?????

Macha · 29-07-2012 8:56am

Silvics wrote: »

Two years on since planning granted for the largest community windfarm in Ireland, be built in west Clare.....where's the damned grid connection?????

When did they apply for grid connection?

Oldtree · 29-07-2012 1:14pm

Irish renewable energy firm Gaelectric has announced that German turbine provider Enercon will supply turbines for its Carn Hill wind energy project in Co Antrim. Enercon has also been contracted to maintain turbines and to provide civil and electrical engineering infrastructure for the 13.8MW wind farm.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0714/1224320064585.html

http://www.gaelectric.ie/

Have to ask, if its cheaper to get the germans in to do the job, how will it ever be viable to employ the irish in this industry here?

Silvics · 29-07-2012 1:21pm

Several years ago-could be another 5 years before they get one.
Grid connections were given to people first come first served. You did not have to have planing permission for wind farm let alone own a possible site. Wonderful legacy of our Celtic Tiger era is that people holding grid connection offers are selling them as commodities. Know of one person based abroad got one in Clare and offloaded it for 1.1m Euro last year.
Seems like the mandarins don't want genuine local initiative just corporations to own the resource. Pretty sad state of affairs.

Macha · 29-07-2012 8:55pm

Silvics wrote: »

Several years ago-could be another 5 years before they get one.

Which year? Under which gate process? Is it the case that they were refused or their application is still pending?

Silvics wrote: »

Grid connections were given to people first come first served. You did not have to have planing permission for wind farm let alone own a possible site. Wonderful legacy of our Celtic Tiger era is that people holding grid connection offers are selling them as commodities. Know of one person based abroad got one in Clare and offloaded it for 1.1m Euro last year.
Seems like the mandarins don't want genuine local initiative just corporations to own the resource. Pretty sad state of affairs.

My understanding is this is not the case. Eirgrid have a gate process that I certainly don't agree with but it is not a case of 'first come first served'.

Silvics · 30-07-2012 8:31pm

My understanding is that you apply and are allocated a connection. When the quota is allocated you move onto the next gate.
This is the second potential wind farm with full planning in Clare that is still not even started because of this process. Hibernian was granted permission 8 years back with a site, competence, and landowner permission.While they waited for a grid connection, the planning ran out, and they had to go thru the planning application again....NOT a satisfactory state of affairs.
The damned country is ready to implode-let's rescind all grid offers where there is neither site nor planning permission and move those other projects which to all common sense and logic actually have the site and planning permission and stop **** about. There may not be a huge number of jobs created long term but there will be a local boost,and an improvement to balance of payments by way of exports.
The cretins who have designed and administered the process have failed at their task....5 years on after the amazing enthusiasm of the Spirit of Ireland group that spoke about harnessing both wind and hydro power, what the hell has been achieved?

delad · 12-08-2012 2:21pm

So is there any benefit to the people of Ireland for this project? It seems to be a foreign company reaping all the profits, a foreign country reaping the benefits of the output of the wind farm, and most of the jobs in its construction are also likely to be foreign workers. I presume the government will benefit from taxes but after the company deducts all their allowable expenses for the project any tax benefit is likely to be miniscule. Am I correct in thinking this?

Grudaire · 13-08-2012 3:03pm

Damn foreigners.... Coming here.. investing their money.. Selling to other foreigners.. keeping the profits

:rolleyes: Seriously though, that's how most of our multinational export industries work. And refusing permission based on some form protectionism would be both short sighted and against EU legislation.
Benefits would be in the form of tax, and employees living in Ireland.

Silvics · 13-08-2012 3:19pm

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

Macha · 13-08-2012 6:29pm

Silvics wrote: »

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

Because they aren't the ones who are doing the work. We never gave away our fisheries and it would be good if that myth died a death.

I find the problem in Ireland is the assumption that someone (usually a foreigner) is ripping us off. Almost 40 years in the EU and grubby nationalism is alive and well.

Heroditas · 13-08-2012 8:18pm

Silvics wrote: »

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

What's currently done is that the small wind farms enter into offtake agreements with the energy supply companies.
It prevents the need for them to do all the paperwork and negates the need for costly licences.

Silvics · 13-08-2012 8:23pm

Macha wrote: »

Because they aren't the ones who are doing the work. We never gave away our fisheries and it would be good if that myth died a death.

I find the problem in Ireland is the assumption that someone (usually a foreigner) is ripping us off. Almost 40 years in the EU and grubby nationalism is alive and well.

Doing the work? What work? you seriously think that educated asset holding Irish people would NOT be involved in any business decisions? Not to mention doing the footwork to get community acceptance?
The biggest rip off merchants in Ireland are the Irish, and the best thing that happened is that outside blood and fresh ideas have come here.
However, I have no plans to doff the cap and take a pittance for the use of my property. I'd expect an equitable share in any established company and I'd like to reinvest any profits in this state.

Macha · 13-08-2012 9:30pm

Silvics wrote: »

Macha wrote: »

Because they aren't the ones who are doing the work. We never gave away our fisheries and it would be good if that myth died a death.

I find the problem in Ireland is the assumption that someone (usually a foreigner) is ripping us off. Almost 40 years in the EU and grubby nationalism is alive and well.

Doing the work? What work? you seriously think that educated asset holding Irish people would NOT be involved in any business decisions? Not to mention doing the footwork to get community acceptance?
The biggest rip off merchants in Ireland are the Irish, and the best thing that happened is that outside blood and fresh ideas have come here.
However, I have no plans to doff the cap and take a pittance for the use of my property. I'd expect an equitable share in any established company and I'd like to reinvest any profits in this state.

sorry I got confused with another thread. Why are you assuming this is not the case? I have yet to see any evidence of when they applied for a grid connection. My understanding is that they have not. The current permitting system needs reform but I haven't seen any evidence.of one project treated unfairly: its equally crap, long and frustrating for eveyone.

as for the spirit of ireland project, I think they are better at PR than project management. All I see are irregular press releases masquerading as news articles inthe media. Have they even carried out an SEA?

Capt'n Midnight · 16-08-2012 2:20pm

Silvics wrote: »

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

Historically speaking Irish people have put money into land and property. Very little into industry.

The turbines on a wind farm are worth a lot more than the land they are on. And once they are erected having turbines on your land doesn't really affect farming that much.

http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/business/land-prices-on-increase-1-3555779 Over the entire country, approximately 9,400 acres changed hands during 2011. that's 38Km2 of agricultural land ie. 0.05% of the total area of the country. ( 70,283Km2 )

Farmers are very much in the 'what we have we hold' category, land really only changes hands when someone dies (lots of those who sold land during the boom are buying the same land back at a lower price). Farmers just don't move into other businesses - it's not like PAYE where you can expect several major career changes and having to retrain constantly , where whole industries get outsourced. For farmers it's much easier to let someone else do all the work and then present you with a steady income stream.

Silvics · 16-08-2012 2:40pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Farmers just don't move into other businesses - it's not like PAYE where you can expect several major career changes and having to retrain constantly , where whole industries get outsourced. For farmers it's much easier to let someone else do all the work and then present you with a steady income stream.

Agreed, but that assumes that people don't change. There's a generation out there that are educated, well-travelled and well informed, and who may just be interested in getting involved.

pljudge321 · 16-08-2012 2:53pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

For farmers it's much easier to let someone else do all the work and then present you with a steady income stream.

Not to mention burden the costs and risk in getting the project to planning stage before potentially having permission denied.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-08-2012 4:00pm

Silvics wrote: »

Agreed, but that assumes that people don't change. There's a generation out there that are educated, well-travelled and well informed, and who may just be interested in getting involved.

Farmers traded just 0.05% of the land in this country last year and that includes buying back the same land at a fraction of what it was sold for during the boom.

Farmers in general don't change.

The history of farming for the last 6,000 years is typically 'what we have we hold' and surplus population has to leave the land. In the past this meant moving on to virgin pastures - far from being custodians of the land farmers are historically responsible for most habitat destruction.

Today mechanisation means that there are far few people working on farms. We used to have over 8 million people here, and very few of them were in cities. In the grand scheme of things over the last 150 years almost all of our population has been forced from the land into the cities leaving just the farm owners family. In the US it's worse since farms are owned by people like Monsato.

At times it galls when the ascetics of the countryside are promoted above the needs of city dwellers because those remaining in the countryside are the descendants of those who destroyed it and forced 90% of the population off the land.

/RANT

One is reminded of this
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/this-is-david-lander/episode-guide/series-1/episode-3

12:40 "wildlife's a townie word, pests we call 'em"

Yes there are lots of nice farmers, but we have to put up with the worst (like that individual who nearly brought foot and mouth here)

Silvics · 16-08-2012 7:23pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Farmers in general don't change.
The history of farming for the last 6,000 years is typically 'what we have we hold' and surplus population has to leave the land. In the past this meant moving on to virgin pastures - far from being custodians of the land farmers are historically responsible for most habitat destruction.

Today mechanisation means that there are far few people working on farms. We used to have over 8 million people here, and very few of them were in cities. In the grand scheme of things over the last 150 years almost all of our population has been forced from the land into the cities leaving just the farm owners family. In the US it's worse since farms are owned by people like Monsato.

At times it galls when the ascetics of the countryside are promoted above the needs of city dwellers because those remaining in the countryside are the descendants of those who destroyed it and forced 90% of the population off the land.

/RANT

One is reminded of this
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/this-is-david-lander/episode-guide/series-1/episode-3

12:40 "wildlife's a townie word, pests we call 'em"

Yes there are lots of nice farmers, but we have to put up with the worst (like that individual who nearly brought foot and mouth here)

Couple of things....re. habitat destruction, let's reforest the entire country with oak/ash/holly /hazel-every square inch possible.
"...aesthetics of the countryside..." what we see out there is effectively man made, but you like it, and at the same time blame farmers for destroying habitat(s) to make it so. We also will have to raze the towns and cities as these would grow exceptionally fine oaks as in years gone by.
The countryside is a workplace for many of us-some **** on their doorstep but I think they are the exception.
We also have a piss poor set of public servants masquerading as "ecologists" and "environmentalists" who lazily blanket prescribe and have a teddy-bear's picnic view of the countryside. Unsurprisingly most come from urban areas.
I could go on but wont.
Some neighbors and I would like to get a wind farm on our farms. We fit all the zoning criteria. Due to the current apportioning of grid connections, local political corruption, and the incredible ineptness of senior civil servants, it will never happen. In fact I reckon I'd get planning permission for a housing estate far more easily and alot faster.

Grudaire · 17-08-2012 10:13am

I think the real problem here is that many farmers etc have a different idea of what is good for the environment, I remember hearing a quote from a farmer trying to justify some form of pollution, it went along the lines of;

'We are the ones that will be affected in the future, why would we do something that was bad'

Which always stuck with me, because the farmer in question completely ignored to provide any argument that might have shown that what they were doing wasn't bad!

Honestly I don't think it's the exception who "sh t on their doorstep" - how bad would Irish rivers be if there was noone going around stopping farmers from polluting them by accident and on purpose?

Silvics · 17-08-2012 10:31am

Fair point. What's your response to the local authorities some of whose public toilets still empty directly into the rivers? People talk about the tyranny of government, so perhaps people who make and enforce the rules should lead by example.

Grudaire · 17-08-2012 10:52am

Fair point,

Although I have the benefit of being able to fling mud at both the Local Authorities, and all polluters!

Oldtree · 09-10-2012 2:03pm

"Wind farms on the bog of Ireland could provide UK electricity

Company behind the £5bn proposals hopes to build more than 700 turbines and transport power in cables beneath Irish Sea
and
The project will not prevent the Republic of Ireland meeting its own carbon target of a 40% cut by 2020."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/08/wind-farms-ireland-uk-electricity?newsfeed=true

Isnt it great that we have a handy valueless BOG for this enterprise, dont they know about slippage at all at all??? :rolleyes:

Oldtree · 23-11-2012 5:15pm

Does installed wind capacity of all wind farms in Ireland count towards our Keyoto targets, even the ones mentioned above with a potentially private network and export undersea cable?

Macha · 23-11-2012 5:48pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Does installed wind capacity of all wind farms in Ireland count towards our Keyoto targets, even the ones mentioned above with a potentially private network and export undersea cable?

I'm not sure about that one but there's also the question of if they count towards our renewable energy target under the Renewable Energy Directive. The method of counting is based on the share of renewables in final energy consumed.

If the energy is consumed elsewhere, ie exported (or even statistically transferred to another country) then it doesn't.

paddy147 · 24-11-2012 12:22am

Waestrel wrote: »

heard this on RTE news this afternoon

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0717/wind-farm-firm-to-create-2-000-jobs-by-2018.html#article

Thoughts? It is unconnected to the Irish grid, being purely an "export" windfarm. It seems odd, but considering how many of our industries are purely export (intel, Pfizer) not to mention out farming exports too, it makes sense.

Since the midlands is not a huge area of tourism, surely it is the best place for such a development? that said, the place will be soggy with NIMBYs very soon i reckon.

Well the midlands will soon be known as the Peoples Republic of China...........aka the Chinese are comming to build on it.;)

ted1 · 24-11-2012 10:20am

Oldtree wrote: »

Does installed wind capacity of all wind farms in Ireland count towards our Keyoto targets, even the ones mentioned above with a potentially private network and export undersea cable?

Keyoto has expired.
And no, its the final energy mix that counts.

Oldtree · 20-12-2012 12:31pm

30 high-spec turbines go in
the Midlands holds for the future generation of power for export to the UK energy market. well thats that then

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2012/Mount+Lucas+Windfarm.htm

mbur · 21-12-2012 11:12pm

Oldtree wrote: »

30 high-spec turbines go in
the Midlands holds for the future generation of power for export to the UK energy market. well thats that then

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2012/Mount+Lucas+Windfarm.htm

I'm a little confused here. Previously (I thought) we were talking about non grid connected export feeders from the midlands to the UK. This project sounds like it will be grid connected and will supply Irish households/industry. The exporting of energy sound like a future aspiration. Of course wind energy is 'run of the river' stuff so we may well at times be an importer but on average the only sensible policy is to be a nett exporter. Of course governments don't always do the sensible thing...

Macha · 22-12-2012 10:40am

mbur wrote: »

I'm a little confused here. Previously (I thought) we were talking about non grid connected export feeders from the midlands to the UK. This project sounds like it will be grid connected and will supply Irish households/industry. The exporting of energy sound like a future aspiration. Of course wind energy is 'run of the river' stuff so we may well at times be an importer but on average the only sensible policy is to be a nett exporter. Of course governments don't always do the sensible thing...

You're right - this is a different one again. So now we have:

- Mainstream Renewable Power's 5,000MW farms to connect directly into UK grid
- Element Power's 3,000MW farms to connect directly into UK grid
- Bord na Mona's ???MW to connect into the Irish Grid.

I think the directly exporting projects are feasible - I just hope Eirgrid and Bord Pleanála do the proper grid planning and modelling to minimise grid build-out.

Oldtree · 22-12-2012 2:44pm

Macha wrote: »

I just hope Eirgrid and Bord Pleanála do the proper grid planning and modelling to minimise grid build-out.

No sign of anything like that yet, maby they intend future profits to do that. I doubt it which is one of the main problems I have in that the infastructure just isnt there and there is no sign of it being put in place. This should all be sorted out before the planning stage is completed, but isnt.

Seems like a familier story where the developers go gung ho to grab the profits and we will be left whistiling dixy at the other end with lots of tall white monuments all over the midlands and on the coasts.

Dont get me wrong though I would love to see an export energy industry succeed, but all I can see is a bandwagon with no forethought.

Capt'n Midnight · 22-12-2012 3:37pm

Until we are producing lots of wind power we won't be a net exporter.

We can export 1GW North and East with existing interconnectors.

So it'll be a while before we are doing more than load balancing.

Green&Red · 09-09-2013 3:23pm

Couple of updates (although not that up to date!) on this

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2013/Irish+and+UK+Energy+MOU.htm

Minister for Communications Energy & Natural Resources, Pat Rabbitte, TD, and the UK Secretary for Energy and Climate Change, Edward Davey will today commit to working closely together to secure economic benefits for both countries through trade in renewable energy.

Announcing the agreement Minister Rabbitte will say:

“Ireland has the potential to generate far more wind energy than we could consume domestically. The opportunity to export this green power presents an opportunity for employment growth and export earnings which we must seize if we can. Today the two Governments are committing themselves to a programme of work.

“We will work closely with the UK government so we are in a position to move towards a formal agreement on energy trading. We will tease out the very complex engineering and market issues so that, subject to their successful resolution and a decision by UK and Irish Ministers to proceed, in a year’s time, we will be in a position to make an intergovernmental agreement providing a formal basis for energy trading.”

UK Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Edward Davey, will say:

“Trading power with Ireland could increase the amount of green power in our energy mix and potentially bring down costs for UK consumers.

“Making the most of the natural renewable resource available around our islands could benefit the economies of both countries. The Memorandum of Understanding marks the continuation of close working between our Governments on the potential for energy trading.”

Marking the occasion the two Ministers will sign a Memorandum of Understanding at a ceremony during a conference in Dublin hosted by the British Irish Chamber of Commerce.

The Memorandum of Understanding affirms the two States’ commitment to:

• maintaining a strong partnership on energy issues;

• achieve closer integration of electricity markets, and

• maximise the sustainable use of low carbon renewable energy resources.

The MOU will trigger detailed analysis of how Irish renewable energy resources, onshore and offshore, might be developed to the mutual benefit of Ireland and the United Kingdom. Any such trading of renewable energy between the two States will seek to achieve more cost efficient uses of resources, drive down deployment costs, be sustainable in the long term, and reduce dependence on fossil fuels.

If analysis shows that renewables trading would be to mutual benefit, the next stage would be to develop an inter-governmental agreement for signing in 2014. A tight timeline is essential if potential projects, which would be selected through an open competitive process, are to commence exporting wind energy from Ireland to the United Kingdom by 2020.

And more recently

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/2013/Strategic+framework+before+specific+wind+energy+proposals+assessed.htm

The Minister for Energy, Pat Rabbitte, T.D today announced that he has instructed his officials to develop an overall policy and planning framework which will guide An Bord Pleanála when considering any proposals for wind energy export projects.

The framework, which will be based on a Strategic Environmental Assessment, will be prepared over the coming twelve months and will provide an opportunity for all stakeholders including local authorities, potential project developers and local communities to be consulted and have an input into the national policy for wind export.

Minister Rabbitte commented “As I have previously said, a clear national planning policy context for Renewable Energy Export is essential for An Bord Pleanála (ABP) in assessing and determining individual strategic projects. The framework we will develop will provide an opportunity to integrate relevant EU Directive requirements - Strategic Environmental Assessment and Appropriate Assessment under the Habitats Directive - in the context of developing a new national framework”

The Minister added that any renewable energy export strategy would also depend on the conclusion of an Intergovernmental Agreement that would ensure such exports were in the interests of both Ireland and Britain. “By the end of this year we hope to make an agreement with the British side. By this time next year we will be finalising a planning framework that will give confidence and certainty to all stakeholders. In the autumn of 2014, therefore, project promoters will be able to submit proposals to ABP in the knowledge that there is a clear framework for decisions.

Greensleeves · 10-09-2013 10:21am

There is surprisingly little coverage of these proposals in the national press in Ireland but Geoffrey Lean in the Daily Telegraph (UK) has written about them twice in the last week.

September 8th, 2013
Have ministers blown their plans to import wind power?

It must have seemed a good idea at the time. Frustrated by opposition to wind power at home, ministers have been collaborating with the Irish Government effectively to increase its capacity by 80 per cent by having turbines built in the Irish midlands which would export their electricity to the UK. Since opposition to windfarms in Ireland so far has been negligible, it must have seemed a safe bet. But, as I report in my weekend Telegraph column it has ignited protests which may now stop the whole scheme.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geoffreylean/100234973/have-ministers-blown-their-plans-to-import-wind-power/

06 Sep 2013
Irish Lilliputs square up to fight British wind giants

Plans are far advanced to erect a forest of giant wind turbines in the flat countryside of the Irish Midlands to generate electricity for the UK - but the protests are growing

To get to Lilliput you travel along a narrow, flat road with a surface so uneven that it feels like the undulations of a sea, then turn right at a pine tree to end up on the shores of the Lough Ennell, in the dead centre of Ireland.

Indeed, the spot where the holidaying Jonathan Swift used to take to the lake – and, once, looking back from his boat, was struck by how small the people on the shore appeared to be – does seem moribund these days, with a disused boathouse, a sad sandpit, a single picnic table and litter bin, part of a nearby “adventure centre”. But it lies at the heart of a growing conflict that promises to be every bit as epic as the contest between the ''Big-endians’’ and ''Little-endians’’ in Gulliver’s Travels.

For, virtually unknown in Britain – and little publicised in Ireland – plans are far advanced to erect a forest of giant wind turbines over three times the height of Nelson’s column in the flat countryside of the Irish Midlands, to generate electricity for the UK. Over the next few years, some 1,100 turbines – more than have been erected in the whole of England – are due to be crammed into the counties of Meath, Westmeath, Offaly, Laois and Kildare and parts of Tipperary and Kilkenny...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/10291432/Irish-Lilliputs-square-up-to-fight-British-wind-giants.html

Grudaire · 10-09-2013 11:58am

He sounds a tad melodramatic tbf!

"Both sides now increasingly suggest that the turbines – which protesters fear may increase to over 2,000 – should be sited far from housing on the area’s tens of thousands of acres of worked-out peat bogs."

It was my understanding that mostly this would be the case?!

Greensleeves · 10-09-2013 12:59pm

Cliste wrote: »

He sounds a tad melodramatic tbf!

"Both sides now increasingly suggest that the turbines – which protesters fear may increase to over 2,000 – should be sited far from housing on the area’s tens of thousands of acres of worked-out peat bogs."

It was my understanding that mostly this would be the case?!

It was most peoples understanding at first; maybe it was a deliberate tactic to avoid drawing too much attention to the projects. Experience from around the world seems to show that industrial wind farms in close proximity to human settlements generate a lot of objections: both companies would have been well aware of this.

As details started to emerge it became apparent that many of the turbine clusters are to be sited close to houses and as successive townslands realised that they were to be surrounded by turbines protest groups have sprouted like mushrooms. Back in July over 2,000 people attended a protest march in Mullingar.

The proposals (and the protests) have been largely ignored by the national press in Ireland. The Irish Examiner is the exception. Here's a report from August 22, 2013 of a public meeting in Athlone organised by Independent MEP Marian Harkin to debate the wind farm proposals for the Midlands.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/stephencadogan/powerful-new-enemy-tilting-at-windmills-240585.html

I've lost count of the number of protest groups but some of them are listed on this website:

http://lwig.net/alliance.htm

Grudaire · 10-09-2013 1:47pm

In that article she seems to be saying that wind farms are bad because they divide communities..?

Although I agree about minimum distancesfrom dwellings

Greensleeves · 13-09-2013 4:06pm

The following is a response from MEP Marian Harkin to the Croghan Community Windfarm Opposition Group (https://www.facebook.com/CCWOG) regarding the wind farm proposals for the Irish midlands. It's very long!

A Chara,

Thank you for your recent correspondence and I have received very many emails, letters and phone calls from people who attended the recent meeting in Athlone and indeed from others throughout the country, some of whom have been badly affected by wind farms. To be honest I had no idea of the extent and size of the industrial type wind farms that have been proposed for the Midlands and elsewhere.

I am outlining for you what I will be involved with over the next few months and I will also send you any updates :-

i) I am currently informing myself on the relevant issues, in particular the issue of infrasound. I was recommended a book called Wind Turbine Syndrome which I am trying to source at the moment. This book is peer reviewed and I believe it would supply us with some very useful information. The author has promised to speak to me and I hope to be in contact with her in next short while. There are also one or two research papers on infrasound which are well worth reading.

ii) I will continue to work with Struan Stevenson MEP and others in the European Parliament on the Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) Directive, which we are voting on in Strasbourg on Wednesday 11th September and I will be supporting the amendment which would include ‘property values’ as part of any Environmental Impact Assessment. I will let you know the outcome of the different votes in the Parliament. It is important to note that any outcomes in the Parliament have then to be negotiated with the Council (i.e. the 27 Environment Ministers from each Member State). So when we have an agreement in the Parliament, it will then be important to lobby our own Minister, but I will let you know about that also.

iii) I will keep in close contact with Andrew Duncan, Senators John Kelly and John Whelan, all of whom have done a great deal of good work so far. In particular I will liaise with the two Senators in regard to the Minister’s Framework Plan for Wind Energy in the Midlands to try to ensure that the voice of the community can genuinely influence outcomes. It is also crucial that all wind energy proposals should be assessed under this Framework Programme and not only those in the Midlands. This issue is linked to another issue and that is the next point.

iv) There was a judgement against Ireland in the European Court of Justice for not properly implementing the last Environmental Directive. The Court found that Ireland has failed to fulfil its obligations under this Directive by failing to transpose Article 3 (Directive 85/337/EEC of June 27th 1985) on the assessment of the effects of certain public and private projects on the environment. In simple terms the Directive requires that the competent environmental authority responsible for carrying out an environmental impact assessment on any project must NOT ONLY identify and describe a projects direct and indirect effects, it MUST ALSO assess them in an appropriate manner in light of each individual case. Ireland was merely describing, not assessing the impacts. The competent authority (whether County Council, An Bord Pleanala or whoever) must undertake both an investigation and analysis to reach as complete an assessment as possible of the direct and indirect effects of the project concerned on:

(a) human beings, fauna & flora
(b) soil, water, air, climate and landscape
(c) material assets and the cultural heritage and the interaction between all of the above three.

As a result of this finding there are relevant 2 issues:
(a) All new planning applications will have to be subject to these requirements
(b) There may well be an issue regarding Wind Projects (and others) that were granted planning permission in contravention of European Law. I am writing to the Commission on this issue and will let you know the outcome of that question.

v) I will also try to raise awareness among the general public as to the full extent of and the massive impact of the proposals. In this context, there have been a number of very interesting articles in the Daily Telegraph. The most recent one refers to a secret wind farm report into house prices in the U.K which can be accessed at www.telegraph.co.uk

vi) There was an appeal recently by a group opposing wind power in Scotland in regard to something called the Aarhus Convention. This is a Convention that is largely concerned with public consultation and access to justice. There was a judgement – just 2 weeks ago in favour of the Scottish group. How this will impact future applications for wind farms in Scotland or Ireland has still to be assessed, but a Senior Counsel in the UK is taking a case based on the judgement. I am speaking to a number of people trying to find what the impact will be for Ireland (if any) and how best to use this information.

vii) Finally, I am fully supportive of Senator John Kelly’s Bill http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2012/0912/b0912d.pdf on set back distances for wind turbines. While this won’t deal with all of the issues, it would help at least to put a legal framework in place that individuals could rely on – e.g. it is my understanding that there aren’t even guidelines in place in Co. Donegal. Even though, to be honest where there are guidelines, I am not sure they mean anything in practice.

Apologies for such a detailed letter, but I know some parts will be of greater interest than others, depending on circumstances. I am also submitting an objection to Laois County Council on the proposed Wind Energy planning applications in Co. Laois on the basis of the European Court of Justice decision in March and on the judgement re the Aarhus Convention, just 2 weeks ago.

Please be assured of my continued support and by best efforts on this issue.

Marian Harkin MEP

Grudaire · 13-09-2013 4:54pm

It's hard to take a politician seriously when their first point is about infrasound and 'Wind Turbine Syndrome' when studies appear to show time and time again that this is not a real medical issue, but rather an annoyance..

(Although I am prepared to accept further research onto the topic, I am annoyed that a politician is willing to accept a book rather than actual published and reviewed papers...)

Greensleeves, are you willing to discuss anything you post, or will you continue with the anti-wind propaganda?

Greensleeves · 13-09-2013 5:42pm

Cliste wrote: »

It's hard to take a politician seriously when their first point is about infrasound and 'Wind Turbine Syndrome' when studies appear to show time and time again that this is not a real medical issue, but rather an annoyance..

(Although I am prepared to accept further research onto the topic, I am annoyed that a politician is willing to accept a book rather than actual published and reviewed papers...)

Greensleeves, are you willing to discuss anything you post, or will you continue with the anti-wind propaganda?

In fairness to Marian Harkin I think she is trying to address all of the issues that are being brought to her attention and Wind Turbine Syndrome just happens to be one of them.

Of course I am willing to discuss anything I post; what do you think about the midlands wind farm proposals?

Grudaire · 13-09-2013 6:14pm

Well I do believe Wind Power is a step forward in the global reduction of pollution. As such I generally view wind farms as a positive development in general.

I disagree with elements of the opposition which appears to be little better than NIMBYism. They do have valid points regarding proximity to dwellings and wildlife effects, which are often exagerated.

Nobody should be even mentioning infrasound, invest in research, but until it is proven (at least having reasonable scientific backing) it is essentially a conspiricy theory
The arguments and even pictures used on the protest sites regularly exaggerate, and seem high on outrage, low on facts.
Objections to developments do not mean that the developments shouldn't happen
I also think the drop in house value is largely due to the hysteria about windfarms - which is caused by the protest groups. By and large it's a self fulfilling Prophesy.

I'm interested in learning more about it however, I'd be specifically interested in exactly where the windfarms are being built close to dwellings.

Greensleeves · 15-09-2013 4:39pm

Cliste wrote: »

Nobody should be even mentioning infrasound, invest in research, but until it is proven (at least having reasonable scientific backing) it is essentially a conspiricy theory

I don't think that infrasound is a conspiracy theory: the Danish Environmental Protection Agency for example sets limit values for low frequency noise in relation to wind turbines.

Greensleeves · 15-09-2013 4:42pm

Cliste wrote: »

I also think the drop in house value is largely due to the hysteria about windfarms - which is caused by the protest groups. By and large it's a self fulfilling Prophesy.

The effect on house values seems to differ from country to country. Denmark has a mature wind industry and has a compensation scheme for loss of value to houses. In the UK council tax bills have been reduced to reflect the loss of value to houses.

Greensleeves · 15-09-2013 4:47pm

Cliste wrote: »

I'm interested in learning more about it however, I'd be specifically interested in exactly where the windfarms are being built close to dwellings.

The Greenwire windfarms will be close to dwellings in the following townslands:
County Kildare: Kildangan
County Meath: Moynalty, Carlanstown
County Westmeath: Rathowen, Ballynacarrigy, Kilbeggan, Coralstown, Kinnegad
County Offaly: Geashill, Clonygowan, Clonbulloge, Rhode
County Laois: Ballyroan, Swan, Wolfhill, Vicarstown

The maps on this website show the proposed locations:
http://www.greenwire.ie/planning/proposed-study-areas/

Greensleeves · 15-09-2013 5:20pm

I am broadly in favour of wind energy; I just don't think that we have left enough room for onshore windfarms in Ireland at proper setback distances. We should learn from the experience of other countries where proximity to houses is concerned. These turbines will be 185m tall so they should be a minimum of 1km from any dwelling house (or if Willie Penrose's Bill was implemented they would be set back by 1.85km). The current proposals will place turbines just 500m from houses. IMO Ireland should be building offshore windfarms instead. They cost more but because of the proliferation of houses in rural areas during the boom we haven't left enough room to have appropriate setback distances.

Wind farm for the Midlands

Comments