Foreign restoration workshop

Bigus · 27-12-2015 6:32pm

I know a real good lad that'll do that as described for 1200 to 1500 based South Dublin up the mountain and stand over the work. If as described.

swarlb · 28-12-2015 9:22pm

digger58 wrote: »

I was talking to my contact in Belgrade yesterday, I'm planning on a full respray, 1990's 2 door cabriolet, Metallic paint, no major body work to be done, just a few small dents here and there, stone chips and usual scratches. No panels to be replaced, no rust etc. Before I say a rough cost ( given to me after emailing many photos) I would ask how much roughly over here. Then people can decide. While there undoubtedly are many skills here, I don't know ANYWHERE over here to get balljoints rebuilt. Again we have followed a trend of replace not repair here for many years, that's why so many foreign nationals have done so well here in the garage business in the last few years, they came from a culture of repairing things and have the skills we have lost due to the usual habit of throw away parts here. The Celtic Tiger sure finished any body trying to repair things, money was flowing for new cars and parts, nobody wanted to get their hands dirty. It's all plug and play now as well so the older stuff doesn't feature in training these days.

Can you tell who repairs 'balljoints' just as a matter of interest. I
I have some experience of having work done abroad, Hungary to be exact. Reason being, is that I found out quite by accident that the company in the UK who was/is repairing a car for me was sourcing the handmade panels required from a company in Holland, who in turn was sourcing them from a place in Hungary. So I went to the source. I am having the work done in the UK, just sourcing the panels myself as they are cheaper.
Personally I think it is a bit mad to travel halfway across Europe to get something done that can be done here, but in my case it did save some money.

digger58 · 28-12-2015 10:25pm

What do you mean "Can you tell who repairs balljoints" I don't know his name in Belgrade but he has done 4 for me. Balljoints that are no longer available. He is known to my contact in Belgrade and I have no problem with the work, I was in Skopje last month and found a guy doing them there as well.Now please tell me somebody who is doing this here in Ireland! As regards the cost etc, I combine this with a holiday, the cost of a respray out there is roughly 1/3 of the cost here. (As Bigus says €1200 to €1500) That's enough of an incentive for me. I don't have €1500 to spend just on a respray. That €1500 will take me out and back! great road trip as well.

digger58 · 28-12-2015 10:47pm

Here are a few pics of the balljoints, They are Fiat X1/9 front and rear!

Silvera · 29-12-2015 5:51pm

^^^ Thats a handy tradesman to know....repairing those balljoints.

It would be useful if his website/contact info was listed here (or in our 'Suppliers' thread) for future reference.

digger58 · 29-12-2015 5:56pm

I don't know if he has a website, I will try and find out.

Thinkingaboutit · 29-12-2015 5:59pm

Bigus wrote: »

I know a real good lad that'll do that as described for 1200 to 1500 based South Dublin up the mountain and stand over the work. If as described.

Gerry Cahill?

My car has been totally rust free since, and he speaks English.

kadman · 30-12-2015 9:50pm

digger58 wrote: »

Here are a few pics of the balljoints, They are Fiat X1/9 front and rear!

Any chance of the price for these????

thanks

Bigus · 30-12-2015 11:02pm

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Gerry Cahill?

My car has been totally rust free since, and he speaks English.

No David Byrne

digger58 · 30-12-2015 11:24pm

These ones are not for sale, I am holding onto them. If you want some done I need the old ones first, BTW they must not be excessively worn or else he can't repair them.

kadman · 01-01-2016 1:07pm

Is this a new insert into an old arm repair??

Thanks.

digger58 · 01-01-2016 2:04pm

kadman wrote: »

Is this a new insert into an old arm repair??

Thanks.

Yes.

kadman · 01-01-2016 4:21pm

digger58 wrote: »

Yes.

So, whats so fantastic about that repair?

Myself and loads of other aircooled owners do it all the time,
on classic vw control arms.

Simple stuff really

digger58 · 01-01-2016 7:07pm

What's so fantastic about it!!!! Simple, Tell me somebody here who will bore out the old joint and thread it? Then source a replacement screw in joint with the right taper. I longing to hear about all the parts available here and the skills to do it! These are not joints that are bolted or riveted in, I'd love to source these parts here but to date haven't been able to, I'm longing to hear!

T5180 · 01-01-2016 8:46pm

Hi Digger,
please dont take this the wrong way but are you sure that is how the repair is carried out ?
It seems like a huge effort to go to for no apparant reason, I would love to see pictures of the process or the components before assembly if you have them. How is each rod held for boring and threading? , it must be thread milled on a cnc as I cant think of another economical way . Any replacement inserts I have ever seen were a pressfit only or pressfit and circlip . Can you give any idea of the cost of the refurb ?
As Kadman said it is a simple process if they are just pressing out old inserts and pressing in new ones . Even machining the OD off the shelf inserts to adapt them for obsolete items is straightforward stuff but that boring and threading you refer to is in a different league altogether.

digger58 · 01-01-2016 10:00pm

Yes that is how it is done! It is a big effort but then again when the originals can no longer be bought there is no alternative. I don't have photos of this, but I will try and get some in the future. I doubt very much that it is CNC machines that are used. If it were as simple as Kadman says I would have done it years ago! If he had looked at the pictures in the first place he would have seen that they are not pressed in !

kadman · 02-01-2016 12:05am

digger58 wrote: »

Yes that is how it is done! It is a big effort but then again when the originals can no longer be bought there is no alternative. I don't have photos of this, but I will try and get some in the future. I doubt very much that it is CNC machines that are used. If it were as simple as Kadman says I would have done it years ago! If he had looked at the pictures in the first place he would have seen that they are not pressed in !

I believe that none of the pics you showed, have a clear top view of the piece in question, so as to ascertain the method of repair.

If they are not pressed in inserts, how then is the cap fitted and welded if not in a proper QA engineering environment that insures no material degredation from the weld heat process??

Maybe that would make it clearer as to the exact processed used.

And you wont make the price known, so its impossible for any of us
can see whether there is a cheaper home grown option. But I know
the re are skills here to do this.

But if you are happy with the result, thats the main thing.

And dont shoot the messenger for asking important questions about pricing and repair methods.

Its what we all want to know??:)

So hows it done??? and how much.

digger58 · 02-01-2016 1:19am

Kadman, I don't know what you are trying to insinuate, You never asked me the cost. You posted "Any chance of the price for these???? That is the price to sell as far as I'm concerned, Had you been clear in what you were asking I would have replied with that, Had you asked "What is the cost of this repair" or similar, I would have known what you are on about!!!!!! The cost was on a barter system of parts I took out with me for my friend in Belgrade, the equivalent is/was about €20 a piece! Hope that clears it up for you. The photos are plain enough to show that they are not pressed in, as I said they are screw in! I didn't watch them being done but that I do know! Where did you get the impression about all the welding? SCREW IN, NOT WELDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't make it any plainer. Please post the contact details for someone here who will do this and supply the necessary parts, I'm intrigued to find out. Nobody'e shooting the messenger but when the messenger won't read the posts that have been put up with the info there's not a lot I can do. To Repeat, The joints are screw in, the old ones are removed and an internal thread cut. I'm sure you've seen screw in balljoints before. I had them on a Peugeot years ago, nothing new there except the size. The Fiat ones are identical to Zastava/Yugo ones, made in Serbia, so replacements are readily available out there, and the skills to fit them.. So to finish I didn't stand over them as they were being done but I will try and get a pic and details for you in the future and the cost is about €20 a piece. Beat that in Ireland!

kadman · 02-01-2016 11:12am

Excellent.

Thanks for clearing up any queries. And it sounds like you got great value.

I doubt any irish supplier could supply all that at 20 euro. Agreed.
I look forward to the pics, if and when you get to see them done.

Thanks for your post.

Kadman

Lellostag · 02-01-2016 12:14pm

digger58 wrote: »

Kadman, I don't know what you are trying to insinuate, You never asked me the cost. You posted "Any chance of the price for these???? That is the price to sell as far as I'm concerned, Had you been clear in what you were asking I would have replied with that, Had you asked "What is the cost of this repair" or similar, I would have known what you are on about!!!!!! The cost was on a barter system of parts I took out with me for my friend in Belgrade, the equivalent is/was about €20 a piece!

Thanks for eventually getting to the point, much appreciated. You do though know that "any chance of the price for these" also refers to the items in general and not just your specific ones? Hence no need to get so exasperated...

Good price though for the repair, perhaps a service you could start reselling here in case there would be enough demand for it?

T5180 · 02-01-2016 1:15pm

That really is a bargain Digger , and I would safely say there is no way that anyone in this country could possibly compete .
I would estimate that there is two hours work at an absolute minimum per joint . Each joint must be cleaned , stripped , worn components removed , set up , bored , measured , threaded , checked , new joint fitted and painted . I am guessing that the new insert must cost at least €5 ( another bargain ) so that leaves the machinist making €7.50 per hour . Out of this he/ she must pay for electricity , carbide tips , machine tools , insurance , pensions etc .Bear in mind that a skilled machinist who walks into a workshop in Ireland with his arms swinging will cost an employer €20+ per hour plus all the overheads on top of that .
I agree that it is very difficult to get this type of work carried out in Ireland but the playing field is not level . The amount of new H&S , environmental and employer regulations that have been introduced in this country in the last 20 years have made it impossible to run the type of machine shop that carried out your work .

Zoo4m8 · 02-01-2016 3:12pm

I'm a bit puzzled, I've never come across a 'Threaded ' ball joint so the talk of boring and threading as a way of ball joint repair leaves me wondering.
The only basic ball joint I'm familiar with consists of two main pieces, the threaded piece with the taper and a ball on top which fits into a socket in which are the wearing parts. Obviously there are a lot of variations in how the joint is attached etc but the basics are the same.
Some joints are designed to be taken apart to replace the wearing parts, if these are not available then any machinist can make them , so far so straightforward..
Then some joints are sealed and a fairly common way of refurbishing these is by Polymer injection, the addition of a grease nipple helps to prolong the life of the joint.
Sealed joints can be opened and wearing parts renewed , I'm not familiar with the process but fairly specialist machinery must be needed, maybe this is the method the OP is referring to?
So in the interest of furthering my education , if anyone can explain how I've maybe got the wrong end of the stick I'd be grateful...

kadman · 02-01-2016 4:22pm

Zoo4m8 wrote: »

I'm a bit puzzled, I've never come across a 'Threaded ' ball joint so the talk of boring and threading as a way of ball joint repair leaves me wondering.
The only basic ball joint I'm familiar with consists of two main pieces, the threaded piece with the taper and a ball on top which fits into a socket in which are the wearing parts. Obviously there are a lot of variations in how the joint is attached etc but the basics are the same.
Some joints are designed to be taken apart to replace the wearing parts, if these are not available then any machinist can make them , so far so straightforward..
Then some joints are sealed and a fairly common way of refurbishing these is by Polymer injection, the addition of a grease nipple helps to prolong the life of the joint.
Sealed joints can be opened and wearing parts renewed , I'm not familiar with the process but fairly specialist machinery must be needed, maybe this is the method the OP is referring to?
So in the interest of furthering my education , if anyone can explain how I've maybe got the wrong end of the stick I'd be grateful...

Here is your explanation:)

http://www.fiatorque.com.au/

We have available remanufactured X1/9 rear balljoints to replace those worn out balljoints on your beloved X1/9.

Our balljoints are made from all new parts, including the boots.
No 2nd hand parts are used, as sometimes the fatigue on 2nd hand balljoints is not immediately obvious.

We employ a bronze double socket system for our balljoints, the same system used on the World Rally Championship winning Fiat Abarth 131 rally cars.
This system involves half of the bronze socket permanently placed at the bottom of the socket, into which the ball is placed, and an adjustment shim placed on the edge of the bottom half of the socket.

The balljoint external housing is tapped internally to accept the top half of the bronze socket, which is then screwed down onto the shim, therefore giving the correct tolerances on the balljoint.

Another advantage of this system is that as the balljoint wears down, instead of having to buy another replacement, it is a simple case of changing the adjustment shim, therefore, our balljoints will never have to be replaced through wear!

All balljoints come with a grease nipple fitted, NEW grease boots and NEW ball and shaft.

All arms are measured in a jig to ensure there is no damage or misalignment of the arm and joint assembly

Please note that our balljoints are not welded anywhere near the ball/socket, as this is considered to be illegal by Motor Transport Authorities in Australia.
As well as being illegal, it is also potentially dangerous, as this can lead to weakness in either the ball or socket.

Our double socket system negates the need for welding

digger58 · 02-01-2016 6:52pm

Lellostag wrote: »

Thanks for eventually getting to the point, much appreciated. You do though know that "any chance of the price for these" also refers to the items in general and not just your specific ones? Hence no need to get so exasperated...

Good price though for the repair, perhaps a service you could start reselling here in case there would be enough demand for it?

If had been asked straight out how much it had cost I would have answered, I took it that I was being asked a price to sell. "Any chance of a price for these" infers a price to sell them NOT a cost of repair! If you have ever bought anything I'm sure you have asked the price for the item! Simple enough in my opinion.There is a big difference and I like straight talk, If you refer to how the repair was done, I stated from the beginning how it was done . There is no "Eventually getting to the point". I can't be held responsible for people not asking a straight question. If exasperation is the result of trying to answer non specific questions so be it, I don't do innuendo and intrigue, what you see is what you get! It would appear that some clubs have found a much simpler solution for their cars so doubtful they would dabble with this.

digger58 · 02-01-2016 7:04pm

I attach a photo from the net of the rear joint from an X, compare that to the ones I put up and you will get the idea, I didn't even look under the dust cover but presume it's much the

same

Zoo4m8 · 02-01-2016 7:53pm

kadman wrote: »

Here is your explanation:)

Very interesting..thanks Kadman, not a process I've come across before, any time I've needed ball joints they have been readily available so haven't had to look at the refurbishment route.
To me looking at the OP's pics the renewal work wasn't obvious apart from the new boots, but then that could be just me!
There is no great mystery about the machine work, I wouldn't see any difficulty having it done here but most certainly not for €20! The obvious snag as already mentioned would be the replacement ball etc. as a small country with a small classic scene we just don't have the demand for some specialist services.

EDIT, have just seen the post above, kept getting interrupted while at this post! had a good look at that pic as well which if the OP's job was done in the same way would explain the ordinary looking pics I was referring to..

Lellostag · 02-01-2016 8:22pm

digger58 wrote: »

If had been asked straight out how much it had cost I would have answered, I took it that I was being asked a price to sell. "Any chance of a price for these" infers a price to sell them NOT a cost of repair! If you have ever bought anything I'm sure you have asked the price for the item! Simple enough in my opinion.There is a big difference and I like straight talk, If you refer to how the repair was done, I stated from the beginning how it was done . There is no "Eventually getting to the point". I can't be held responsible for people not asking a straight question. If exasperation is the result of trying to answer non specific questions so be it, I don't do innuendo and intrigue, what you see is what you get! It would appear that some clubs have found a much simpler solution for their cars so doubtful they would dabble with this.

Well, neither can any of us be held responsible for your refusal to realize the English language does have a multitude of nuances and not everything is a two dimensional yes or no situation. I just figured that you, just like myself, is a non-native speaker when it comes to English and it sometimes can be a bit difficult qto get the real meaning of what people write.

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter, misunderstandings are what makes reading Forum posts amusing at times!

Good luck with your restoration project!

digger58 · 02-01-2016 9:07pm

As a native speaker I ask the price before buying, that's fairly universal in any language!:eek: No refusal there! It's fairly simple really "How much does that cost", "How much are they" "Any chance of the price for these???? etc etc Most people dealing with cars are fairly adept at asking similar questions when buying bits and pieces. As you say, just some of the little idiosyncrasies of the language and the people using it!

T5180 · 02-01-2016 10:20pm

Well as they say , I think we`ve all learned something here today …. and that’s really what it's all about .
It is also nice to see that there are people with great technical knowledge on this forum .
BTW does anyone know how much it would cost to buy the same reconditioned balljoints from Fiatorque ?, I suspect a lot more than €20 each .
Anyone got any other engineering curiosities for discussion ??

colm_mcm · 02-01-2016 10:40pm

Somebody on aronline sent an sd1 to Poland. Wrote a good bit about the experience.

http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/ar-cars/our-cars/polish-rover-sd1/

Foreign restoration workshop

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