Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

budhabob · 04-01-2020 10:48pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Brand new coaching ticket playing a very different style of rugby still bedding in. Calling for coach's head at this early juncture is nonsense.

We'll be a different team with ball carriers like CJ, Killer, Kleyn, Farrell starting.

Massive ask mind, but I'm expecting a much improved performance on last night.

The game against saracens made me think when everything clicks we can beat anyone. It's just taking so bloody long for it all to click.

Buer · 04-01-2020 10:52pm

I'm becoming convinced that JVG will get this season and next. After that, it's just a matter of whether ROG wants the job or not.

He's getting the gig at some point but I don't see him spending years in La Rochelle.

awec · 04-01-2020 10:52pm

molloyjh wrote: »

How the head coach performs is dependent on the assistant coaches. You've got to look at them as a single unit. This season is a dud, like 2015/16 was for Leinster. Wait and see how they go next season.

Time is running out making excuses for Van Graan. Firstly it was he needed to have a full season with the team, then it was that his assistants weren't really experienced enough or good enough, and now it's his assistants are new so need time to bed in. This talk of Munster getting used to a new way of playing, well I can't pretend to watch Munster every week but if there's a new way of playing I can't see it, it just looks like the same old limited bosh nonsense that has plagued Munster rugby for years.

Eventually it's time to call a spade a spade and recognise that the guy is a spoof, and there is a reason that Rassie Erasmus was happy for him to fly in the opposite direction when he took the springbok job.

Ulster went through the same nonsense with Les Kiss, it was plainly obvious he wasn't cutting the mustard long before he was eventually given the boot, but there were always those making excuses for how poor the team was.

budhabob · 04-01-2020 10:53pm

Faugheen wrote: »

Van Graan is a complete spoofer. Even with a new coaching ticket you should be seeing some improvements. Munster’s attack is still stagnant and their forward play has got worse.

There is no way a team with Rowntree and Larkham should be performing this poorly with what looks like a very limited game plan. He’s been in charge since 2017, and every year Munster have gone backwards.

Larkham & Rowntree are Snr Management in the Munster set up. They will be bought into the game plan, so as someone else said, view it as a collective. JVG will be the guy to get the credit / boot though so certainly deserves the focus.

JPCN1 · 04-01-2020 10:55pm

awec wrote: »

Time is running out making excuses for Van Graan. Firstly it was he needed to have a full season with the team, then it was that his assistants weren't really experienced enough or good enough, and now it's his assistants are new so need time to bed in.

Eventually it's time to call a spade a spade and recognise that the guy is a spoof.

Or you're simply not producing/buying players of the requisite standard. Or some of the ones like Murray and POM are nowhere near where they were in the past.

Eod100 · 04-01-2020 11:00pm

budhabob wrote: »

The game against saracens made me think when everything clicks we can beat anyone. It's just taking so bloody long for it all to click.

Yeah this is it. I don't think it would be the worst thing in the world if we didn't make it out of pool this season or lost in the qfs if it meant we improved long-term, but guess it doesn't necessarily follow that it would work that way.

I don't think Munster have been helped by the frequent changes in coaches and tactics which comes with that. If you look at the successful teams in Europe lately like Leinster and Saracens there coaches have all been in place for few years now. And greater squad depth too.

That said think the change in coaches can't excuse everything. Players need to be playing to the best of their potential, skills need to be sharp and need to have far more of an attacking edge.

I'm sure there's frustration among players that we haven't got to a Champions Cup final since 2008, or Pro14 final since 2017 and not having won it since 2011. Will soon be 10 years since that if we don't get to final this season.

molloyjh · 04-01-2020 11:23pm

Eod100 wrote: »

I never said it's "ah but its Munster", I'm just not willing to write them off 8 days before kick-off. Upsets can and do happen in sport, that's half the joy of it. Result won't be decided til 5pm on Sunday

Didnt mean to suggest you were saying the "its Munster" thing. It's just something that inevitably comes up when groups of people talk about these kinds of games. I wouldnt 100% write them off, hence I qualified what I said. But there really isnt anything at all to suggest that they'll win. I simply cant see where it'll even come from. The platform up front isnt good enough. Half backs arent performing. Centres arent performing. Back 3 haven't been great. That in the side penalty from Earl's (and his subsequent reaction to it) said a lot for me. Senior guys who should be setting the standard were doing anything but and the attitude they (visibly) showed was really poor. It would be a massive upset at this stage.

leakyboots · 05-01-2020 7:49pm

What was Earls' reaction?

Eod100 · 05-01-2020 8:42pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm becoming convinced that JVG will get this season and next. After that, it's just a matter of whether ROG wants the job or not.

He's getting the gig at some point but I don't see him spending years in La Rochelle.

I don't think ROG would be answer to all Munster's issues. Plus will only have 2 seasons as head coach at La Rochelle if it's timeframe you mention above. He could move on after few seasons in La Rochelle but don't think it would be straight into Munster.

Squidgy Black · 05-01-2020 8:56pm

Can't see ROG taking on the Munster job for quite some time. At the moment he's trying to build up his coaching career to set a future ahead of himself, and taking on Munster would be a massive gamble at this early stage of his HC career with a lot of pressure to go with it, particularly with players he would've played alongside.

kingofthekong · 06-01-2020 12:35am

JPCN1 wrote: »

Or you're simply not producing/buying players of the requisite standard. Or some of the ones like Murray and POM are nowhere near where they were in the past.

Agree with this, theres a massive over estimation and overating of Munster players by Munster fans

If you go through the team there is a lot of out of form and stale older players who are fine for the pro14 but will never bee good enough to compete in Europe no matter what coach you have...

Fact is your squad isn't that good and the players that used to be world class are no longer world class and there has been no talent developed from the academy and brought in to fill the gaps and push out older under performing players..

This has been coming for a few seasons now and is starting to roost, the top teams in Europe which munster used to be are: Buying in the highest quality players from elsewhere and/or bringing through and developing high quality players from their academy --- Munster have done neither in the past couple years and this is the result.

Munster have been heavily reliant on certain players the last number of years and these players are no longer the players they used to be: Murray, POM etc

Munster can fix this by purchasing players like Snyman, De allende and bringing through talent like O'sullivan, Hodnett, Casey, Healy, Ahern, Flannery, Wren, French -- developing these guys needs to be a priority,

Munster are already starting to see the fruits of giving Loughman a shout but one or two isnt enough they need more and the above guys can turn things around.

06-01-2020 11:56am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Can't see ROG taking on the Munster job for quite some time. At the moment he's trying to build up his coaching career to set a future ahead of himself, and taking on Munster would be a massive gamble at this early stage of his HC career with a lot of pressure to go with it, particularly with players he would've played alongside.

He's doing it the right way imo. If say it had gone totally tits up for Cullen at Leinster, his coaching career was nearly over before it ever began. ROG will always get himself a job somewhere now, and will do after he inevitably joins and leaves Munster at whatever point that happens in the future.

randomrb · 06-01-2020 12:00pm

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Can't see ROG taking on the Munster job for quite some time. At the moment he's trying to build up his coaching career to set a future ahead of himself, and taking on Munster would be a massive gamble at this early stage of his HC career with a lot of pressure to go with it, particularly with players he would've played alongside.

Its a bit like when Conor O'Shea was asked if he would ever coach Ireland and he said that he loved his country too much to do it. If ROG came back to coach there would be a massive amount of pressure and it could all go wrong,

We are not very forgiving of coaches in Ireland eg O'Sullivan, Kidney, O'Connor, Cheika, Gatland, Penney, Keane etc.. now some of them were much better than others but they were all turfed out some having done a lot of good.

PMC83 · 06-01-2020 2:20pm

Wheres Darren Sweetnam at these days? I remember seeing him againt the Maori Abs and thing he would be one for the future

Digifriendly · 06-01-2020 2:30pm

As an Ulster fan I don't remember seeing a Munster team compete so poorly at Ravenhill as last Friday. There were literally no ball carrying forwards in their pack and apart from their early try the backline looked pedantic at best. For a province with such a proud tradition and history it was disappointing in some ways to witness. I know that some of their frontliners especially Stander were missing but they looked rudderless at times and they came close to conceding 40 points which is never a good thing.

Rigor Mortis · 06-01-2020 2:32pm

Buer wrote: »

I'm becoming convinced that JVG will get this season and next. After that, it's just a matter of whether ROG wants the job or not.

He's getting the gig at some point but I don't see him spending years in La Rochelle.

I reckon Larkham is the next coach. ROG will round out his experience in the Prem before coming back. Then Munster or Ireland.

molloyjh · 06-01-2020 2:32pm

leakyboots wrote: »

What was Earls' reaction?

He neither questioned the ref nor stuck his hand up in apology to his teammates, he just was very meh about it all. Hes a senior player and should be setting the standard. Instead he was giving away a very stupid penalty and not really reacting to the fact that he had done so. If that had been a Ferg McFadden or someone like that in a Leinster shirt I'd have been pissed with him. Munster need more from guys like him on days like that.

prawnsambo · 06-01-2020 2:37pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

As an Ulster fan I don't remember seeing a Munster team compete so poorly at Ravenhill as last Friday. There were literally no ball carrying forwards in their pack and apart from their early try the backline looked pedantic at best. For a province with such a proud tradition and history it was disappointing in some ways to witness. I know that some of their frontliners especially Stander were missing but they looked rudderless at times and they came close to conceding 40 points which is never a good thing.

I'm picturing a pedantic backline arguing the specifics of their positioning.

06-01-2020 3:02pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm picturing a pedantic backline arguing the specifics of their positioning.

Whilst trying to fulfil their primary role of tackling and staying out of rucks

Yeah_Right · 06-01-2020 3:10pm

randomrb wrote: »

We are not very forgiving of coaches in Ireland eg O'Sullivan, Kidney, O'Connor, Cheika, Gatland, Penney, Keane etc.. now some of them were much better than others but they were all turfed out some having done a lot of good.

You can add Schmidt to that list. The way some fans and pundits have gone on about him in the last year.

RobbieRuns · 06-01-2020 3:26pm

randomrb wrote: »

Its a bit like when Conor O'Shea was asked if he would ever coach Ireland and he said that he loved his country too much to do it. If ROG came back to coach there would be a massive amount of pressure and it could all go wrong,

We are not very forgiving of coaches in Ireland eg O'Sullivan, Kidney, O'Connor, Cheika, Gatland, Penney, Keane etc.. now some of them were much better than others but they were all turfed out some having done a lot of good.

I can see a few of the people in Galway starting to get edgy about Andy Friend now as well, even though he started brilliantly and got us back into Europe. Lets be honest...... no one like losing and it is even worse if you have tasted success. It is always on the back of couple of bad defeats.

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 3:37pm

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I reckon Larkham is the next coach. ROG will round out his experience in the Prem before coming back. Then Munster or Ireland.

Would think he would need to prove himself as coach at provincial level before he could even be considered for Ireland so early days for that I'd think

randomrb · 06-01-2020 3:37pm

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I can see a few of the people in Galway starting to get edgy about Andy Friend now as well, even though he started brilliantly and got us back into Europe. Lets be honest...... no one like losing and it is even worse if you have tasted success. It is always on the back of couple of bad defeats.

I agree that a change is sometimes best but we seem to forget what coaches achieved throughout their term.

Kidney is the best example he won two H Cups with Munster and a grand slam with Ireland yet he gets very little recognition because he ended badly. I just hope that Schmidt doesn't fall into the same camp.

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 3:45pm

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I can see a few of the people in Galway starting to get edgy about Andy Friend now as well, even though he started brilliantly and got us back into Europe. Lets be honest...... no one like losing and it is even worse if you have tasted success. It is always on the back of couple of bad defeats.

At same time, wouldn't like to see coaches being replaced as regularly as Premier League coaches. For one there wouldn't be the staff to have revolving door approach to coaches.

molloyjh · 06-01-2020 4:00pm

randomrb wrote: »

I agree that a change is sometimes best but we seem to forget what coaches achieved throughout their term.

Kidney is the best example he won two H Cups with Munster and a grand slam with Ireland yet he gets very little recognition because he ended badly. I just hope that Schmidt doesn't fall into the same camp.

I think Kidney is very different. He was successful with Munster, gelled the Irish team to great effect in 2009, but we were on a steady downward curve thereafter despite some serious talent in the team during that time. Healy, Best, Ferris, SOB, Heaslip and Sexton all at their best. Guys like POC, Donncha Ryan, Darce, BOD, Rob Kearney etc all there too. Yet we never really came close to another 6Ns trophy. It was a very poor return from a very good team over that period.

phog · 06-01-2020 4:15pm

Losing like we did to Ulster is tough, thankfully, we don't lose like that too often but I can see why some fans getting uneasy with our season. In a sense we were lucky with the team Saracens sent to Thomond as it could have been an awful lot worse.

We got in two new coaches at a time when a lot of for 1st team were away with the W/Cup, then they had their deserved break before returning just in time for the first rounds of the H/Cup then we come into the Christmas season and we have a two week layoff for the same players again, added to this we have injury after injury to our outhalfs - all of this makes it more difficult for teams to get used a new attack. I think someone said recently that Joey and Conor haven't started together for Munster since the SF last season.

Anyway, speaking for myself, I see no reason to be in a rush to dump JvG, I'm happy enough with his selection of the new coaches and how the beginning of our season started with those coaches.

FrannoFan · 06-01-2020 4:18pm

randomrb wrote: »

I agree that a change is sometimes best but we seem to forget what coaches achieved throughout their term.

Kidney is the best example he won two H Cups with Munster and a grand slam with Ireland yet he gets very little recognition because he ended badly. I just hope that Schmidt doesn't fall into the same camp.

The world cup quarter final loss to Wales is what tarnishes his reputation.

That was the semi-final appearance that got away. Dropped Sexton after beating Oz? spectacularly bad call at the time and not just with 20:20 hindsight.

phog · 06-01-2020 4:31pm

FrannoFan wrote: »

The world cup quarter final loss to Wales is what tarnishes his reputation.

That was the semi-final appearance that got away. Dropped Sexton after beating Oz? spectacularly bad call at the time and not just with 20:20 hindsight.

Our performances in the pool games during the most recent W/Cup leave a lot to be desired and has me a little edgy about our forthcoming 6Ns tournament even with a a new Head Coach.

Riskymove · 06-01-2020 4:36pm

FrannoFan wrote: »

The world cup quarter final loss to Wales is what tarnishes his reputation.

in addition to:

60-0 to NZ

losing to Italy in 6N and coming 5th in comp

dropping to lowest world rating

all with a squad of grand slam winners and most of the Munster/Leinster European champions

aloooof · 06-01-2020 4:42pm

FrannoFan wrote: »

The world cup quarter final loss to Wales is what tarnishes his reputation.

That was the semi-final appearance that got away. Dropped Sexton after beating Oz? spectacularly bad call at the time and not just with 20:20 hindsight.

Didn't Sexton miss a number of kicks in the Oz game tho? And ROG came on and took over kicking duties and saw the game out. ROG also started the Italy game after that OZ game.

I remember criticism at the time that every other country knew who their starting 10 was going in the RWC*, but even so I don't think it's as bad a call as you're making out.

(*Except for France. Plus ca change...)

twinytwo · 06-01-2020 5:01pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

Agree with this, theres a massive over estimation and overating of Munster players by Munster fans

If you go through the team there is a lot of out of form and stale older players who are fine for the pro14 but will never bee good enough to compete in Europe no matter what coach you have...

Fact is your squad isn't that good and the players that used to be world class are no longer world class and there has been no talent developed from the academy and brought in to fill the gaps and push out older under performing players..

This has been coming for a few seasons now and is starting to roost, the top teams in Europe which munster used to be are: Buying in the highest quality players from elsewhere and/or bringing through and developing high quality players from their academy --- Munster have done neither in the past couple years and this is the result.

Munster have been heavily reliant on certain players the last number of years and these players are no longer the players they used to be: Murray, POM etc

Munster can fix this by purchasing players like Snyman, De allende and bringing through talent like O'sullivan, Hodnett, Casey, Healy, Ahern, Flannery, Wren, French -- developing these guys needs to be a priority,

Munster are already starting to see the fruits of giving Loughman a shout but one or two isnt enough they need more and the above guys can turn things around.

I mentioned 5 or 6 years ago that it would take Munster getting knocked out of Europe and not qualifying the next season before things would change.

Not quite there yet but not far off. Same old wishy washy ****e that ruined cork hurling.

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 5:10pm

twinytwo wrote: »

I mentioned 5 or 6 years ago that it would take Munster getting knocked out of Europe and not qualifying the next season before things would change.

Not quite there yet but not far off. Same old wishy washy ****e that ruined cork hurling.

Might not be worst thing in world long-term if that happened in order to reset and plan for seasons ahead. Look at Clermont now after winning Challenge Cup last season say . But don't see us not qualifying for Champions Cup next season unless things go drastically downhill.

molloyjh · 06-01-2020 5:20pm

aloooof wrote: »

Didn't Sexton miss a number of kicks in the Oz game tho? And ROG came on and took over kicking duties and saw the game out. ROG also started the Italy game after that OZ game.

I remember criticism at the time that every other country knew who their starting 10 was going in the RWC*, but even so I don't think it's as bad a call as you're making out.

(*Except for France. Plus ca change...)

Sexton still scored more points than Oz (9-6) so it's not like ROG bailed us out or anything. And plenty on here were calling the decision a terrible one prior to kick off. Our best performances of the year both came with Reddan and Sexton starting. They were then HEC winning half back pairing. They had steered us to a win over Australia. Starting Murray and ROG played into Welsh hands and plenty of us said so at the time.

prawnsambo · 06-01-2020 5:27pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Sexton still scored more points than Oz (9-6) so it's not like ROG bailed us out or anything. And plenty on here were calling the decision a terrible one prior to kick off. Our best performances of the year both came with Reddan and Sexton starting. They were then HEC winning half back pairing. They had steered us to a win over Australia. Starting Murray and ROG played into Welsh hands and plenty of us said so at the time.

A source of much frustration for many. Me included. It was like watching a guy playing poker, discarding two cards from a straight flush in order to get a pair of kings.

aloooof · 06-01-2020 5:33pm

twinytwo wrote: »

I mentioned 5 or 6 years ago that it would take Munster getting knocked out of Europe and not qualifying the next season before things would change.

Not quite there yet but not far off. Same old wishy washy ****e that ruined cork hurling.

It very nearly happened in 2016; we had to beat Scarlets on the final day to ensure we got 6th, and qualified.

I still think this is a season of transition for Munster and JVG and the rest should be given until the end of next season. Having all the internationals for a full pre-season, and the potential additions of De Allende and Snyman, could make all the difference.

molloyjh · 06-01-2020 5:36pm

aloooof wrote: »

It very nearly happened in 2016; we had to beat Scarlets on the final day to ensure we got 6th, and qualified.

I still think this is a season of transition for Munster and JVG and the rest should be given until the end of next season. Having all the internationals for a full pre-season, and the potential additions of De Allende and Snyman, could make all the difference.

Give them until Christmas. If it's still not working Munster will need to start the search for a replacement sooner rather than later. Dont end up in Leinsters situation having to scramble for a coach with a deadline of a few weeks! Let JVG see out the season obviously, but the call needs to be made before that.

Brief_Lives · 06-01-2020 5:41pm

Random thought, but does everyone think ROG will come to Munster?

Coaches come and go.. Do you think ROG will want to leave? What's the plan there... Before even thinking he might accept a job here..

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 7:13pm

The province’s medical department have issued the following update ahead of the game.

Tadhg Beirne underwent successful ankle surgery last week and has commenced rehabilitation.

JJ Hanrahan and Tommy O’Donnell are both rehabbing well from hamstring injuries sustained against Leinster.

Niall Scannell was removed with cramp against Ulster and has returned to training.

Fineen Wycherley failed a HIA in Belfast and will follow RTP protocols.

Andrew Conway was withdrawn as a precaution at half-time on Friday night with a neck complaint and will be reviewed as the week continues.

In positive news, Kevin O’Byrne, Rhys Marshall and Darren Sweetnam will all be reintroduced to training this week.

Continuing to rehab: Brian Scott (foot) Tyler Bleyendaal (neck), Ciaran Parker (calf).

yerrahbah · 06-01-2020 7:14pm

Beaten to it

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 7:52pm

Good news about KOB, Marshall and Sweetnam in fairness

shootermacg · 06-01-2020 8:00pm

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/636911310533296130/663818718358405141/Screenshot_20200106-185813__01.jpg

When you thought it couldn't get any worse.

thomond2006 · 06-01-2020 8:00pm

Indo reporting Carbery has suffered a broken arm in training.

Stick a fork in the season please.

Onecoolcookie · 06-01-2020 8:00pm

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/exclusive-joey-carbery-suffers-suspected-broken-arm-in-munster-training-session-38838546.html

Can't catch a break (excuse the pun)

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 8:02pm

Maybe I spoke too soon, this would be a disaster. https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/exclusive-joey-carbery-suffers-suspected-broken-arm-in-munster-training-session-38838546.html

yerrahbah · 06-01-2020 8:05pm

Assuming the above is true, that is an absolute disaster
Scannell at 10 vs Racing?

thomond2006 · 06-01-2020 8:07pm

yerrahbah wrote: »

Assuming the above is true, that is an absolute disaster
Scannell at 10 vs Racing?

Or Ben Healy.

yerrahbah · 06-01-2020 8:10pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Or Ben Healy.

I thought of him, but hes very green.

Away vs Racing in a must win game is asking a lot of him.

I'd opt for Scannell myself

LuckyGent88 · 06-01-2020 8:16pm

That is one hell of a disaster and just about sums up Munsters season.

It was a hard enough task on Sunday with a full strength team but our chances are nearly impossible now.

Anyway, still looking forward to the trip to Paris.

Eod100 · 06-01-2020 8:33pm

Carbery not in the update at all but maybe they're waiting to see how bad it is first

Squidgy Black · 06-01-2020 8:34pm

That's a big blow. Just when there was good news about Scannell/Marshall/O'Byrne returning.

Would be way too big of a step up for Healy to play in Racing in a pressure game like that. The only thing is, with JJ and Tyler out, who do you stick at 12? Farrell?

Munster Team Talk Thread - Beirne After Reading

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