New Worldwide Handicap System

TheFarneyman · 18-09-2019 11:02pm

Open competitions are surely going to get a hit, why would anyone really go away once recreational rounds can count now?
According to the calculations tho the weather is not a factor ie. No standard scratch anymore on the day that the course rating and slope is all they use? Or am I picking that up wrong, can the course rating change from day to day to accommodate the 4 seasons in a day golf here in Ireland?
Ps. I think recreational rounds counting is a great addition, competitive rounds on a random Thursday night or whenever is superb I think.

DuckSlice · 19-09-2019 9:14am

Found this article helpful

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/explained-how-golfs-new-world-handicap-system-will-work-as-golfing-union-of-ireland-signs-up-38502757.html

willabur · 19-09-2019 9:46am

etxp wrote: »

Found this article helpful

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/explained-how-golfs-new-world-handicap-system-will-work-as-golfing-union-of-ireland-signs-up-38502757.html

I just read that article and am now convinced that this will do nothing to bring new players into the game. Its a ridiculous situation - its going to be a pain in the hole for everyone from players to club administrators

Rikand · 19-09-2019 10:00am

Similar to our current standard scratch system, this figure won't be confirmed until the competition is closed and the playing conditions are taken into account.

Taken from.that article. So every day is a competition day if casual rounds can count. Therefore handicap secretary is about to become a full time job with overtime that they don't get paid for lol

jtown · 19-09-2019 10:17am

Rikand wrote: »

Taken from.that article. So every day is a competition day if casual rounds can count. Therefore handicap secretary is about to become a full time job with overtime that they don't get paid for lol

People use competitions to control their H/C (up or down) - Now casual rounds will count - people MAY say why bother playing in comps anymore with entrance fees.

Could impact competition playing number dramatically

mike12 · 19-09-2019 10:58am

Each country can set their own qualifying criteria.
Winter golf may count it's as relevant as playing outside competition.

I think it will be limited to X amount of non competitive rounds here which will work fine.
The weather here is too variable to have all rounds played outside competition included.

The buffer zone will be gone but it will give u a target to beat to drop handicap or stop handicap increasing.

TheRoomWrecker · 19-09-2019 11:10am

Its going to be very interesting, I can see the GUI implmenting a "local" rule of only competitions counting towards handicap, as others have said the Handicap Sec role will be like a full time job, especially in large membership clubs.

My club is qualifying all year round so we will be first up guinea pigs for this in November 2020.

TheFarneyman · 19-09-2019 12:07pm

TheRoomWrecker wrote: »

, I can see the GUI implmenting a "local" rule of only competitions counting towards handicap,

I think this would defeat the whole purpose of changing to the WHS, their main aim is to be inclusive and breaking down the barriers of golf, so can't see them implementing this. (but could be totally wrong as it is Ireland after all).

Totally agree it's a lot more work for the handicap Sec but by the sounds of things the calculations are done on the computer, so all that would need to be inputted daily is the course rating on that day. Surely that's not a big thing to ask and i'm sure it doesn't necessarily need to be the Handicap sec that enters it, Pro in the shop or general manager could enter easily you'd think.

mike12 · 19-09-2019 12:42pm

TheFarneyman wrote: »

I think this would defeat the whole purpose of changing to the WHS, their main aim is to be inclusive and breaking down the barriers of golf, so can't see them implementing this. (but could be totally wrong as it is Ireland after all).

Totally agree it's a lot more work for the handicap Sec but by the sounds of things the calculations are done on the computer, so all that would need to be inputted daily is the course rating on that day. Surely that's not a big thing to ask and i'm sure it doesn't necessarily need to be the Handicap sec that enters it, Pro in the shop or general manager could enter easily you'd think.

In the USA I don't think u have to be a member of a club to have a handicap here u will have to be.
I reckon there is no way they will allow a guy to turn up at the west of Ireland having play 20 casual rounds.
Or even turn up to the Captain's prize.

Seve OB · 19-09-2019 12:43pm

my club plays 14 hole competitions from October to march, even april

no idea what's going to happen here because as it is, only 9 or 18 holes count!!!

TheFarneyman · 19-09-2019 1:28pm

mike12 wrote: »

In the USA I don't think u have to be a member of a club to have a handicap here u will have to be.
I reckon there is no way they will allow a guy to turn up at the west of Ireland having play 20 casual rounds.
Or even turn up to the Captain's prize.

Agree there may need to be a cap on the number of "recreational" rounds that can count or vice versa,a certain amount of competition rounds counted, my point is that they couldn't eradicate recreational rounds totally as it would go against their own mandate. The fact that this is meant to come into force in a few weeks and everyone is none the wiser leads me to believe that they may be no wiser to how it works themselves.

TheRoomWrecker · 19-09-2019 1:34pm

TheFarneyman wrote: »

The fact that this is meant to come into force in a few weeks and everyone is none the wiser leads me to believe that they may be no wiser to how it works themselves.

its November 2020 when it comes into force

TheFarneyman · 19-09-2019 1:42pm

Haha oops there was me thinking it was in a couple of weeks and getting worried scrap what i just said lol

davegilly · 19-09-2019 2:20pm

That report in the paper linked above states "A player's handicap will now be based on the eight best scores from their last 20 competitive rounds."

That to me looks like it will be competition rounds only and NOT casual rounds.

Casual rounds make no sense in Ireland anyway. Most people play golf to get their handicap down as low as possible so if you can do it during casual play then why would you bother paying competition fees for opens or weekend comps? It will affect memberships as well I think - simpler to join some cheap place and use golf now deals to play casually wherever you like??

techdiver · 19-09-2019 2:57pm

Rikand wrote: »

Taken from.that article. So every day is a competition day if casual rounds can count. Therefore handicap secretary is about to become a full time job with overtime that they don't get paid for lol

Is counting casual rounds mandatory? I can't see how it could be. Part of the fun for me on a summers evening is to go out and hit a few balls on each holes when it's not busy. I wouldn't even keep score and might only play 13 holes?

On another point, I can see casual rounds only being used to manipulate the system. It's fine for someone who wants to lower their handicap etc. But bandits can go out 7 times a week and stink the pace up to get the handicap back up.

Dtoffee · 19-09-2019 3:01pm

This has all the hallmarks of car crash TV ....... I can see mayhem over it with players wondering how the winners handicap was calculated as 15 when he was 11 last week ! who in their right mind would be a competition secretary at this rate.

Casual rounds to count .... I have never played to my potential in a casual round as I am usually trying something new or messing with mates / family (ie mulligans / gimmee's etc are allowed). How can this be monitored without any marker / verification ?

The great thing about golf is that you can remain compeditive as you get older. This move could well kill off the compeditive element of the game as we know it and render it a passtime for fun. At which point, some people will just give up the game through lack of motivation / challenge.

Obviously this decision has been made and it will go ahead ..... I just hope the decison makers are not too thick to reverse it quickly if it fails.

Ps be careful what you wish for ... look at how VAR has killed the atmosphere at soccer games.

mike12 · 19-09-2019 6:36pm

As far as the info has allowed a casual round will have to be declared before u play and u will have to have a marker.

fred funk }{ · 19-09-2019 10:26pm

mike12 wrote: »

As far as the info has allowed a casual round will have to be declared before u play and u will have to have a marker.

Is this not the case at the moment?

Roger_007 · 20-09-2019 12:38am

I think there are two issues which are getting confused here.
The first is the usage of a slope/difficulty rating for a course, (and for the different tees), to adjust handicaps for playing that course. This system is commonly used already in many countries and I see no difficulty with it.
The second is the method by which playing handicaps are adjusted. The current system which we use has evolved over many years and has been adjusted from time to time to deal with potential or real abuses. While is not perfect I think it generally works very well.
The proposed new system seems to have many loopholes and seems, on the face of it, to be more open to abuse than the current system. I just did a quick calculation of my own last 20 returns and applied the new method as far as we know it. It appears that my handicap would increase by 5 shots, (from 13 to 18). I had a run of poor scores over the past couple of years, partially for medical reasons, (thankfully now resolved).
I, like many golfers, play much of my golf recreationally away from my home course, (some abroad). It would take me a long time to record 20 rounds on my home course so I don't see how my handicap can be fairly adjusted using the new system.

DuckSlice · 20-09-2019 8:03am

Will they actually go out and review each course or will they just assign a slope rating based on current data from the courses?

fred funk }{ · 20-09-2019 8:32am

etxp wrote: »

Will they actually go out and review each course or will they just assign a slope rating based on current data from the courses?

Review each course. Most have already been done.

Mantis Toboggan · 20-09-2019 9:19am

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Review each course. Most have already been done.

Will be interesting to see how each course is rated.

My course could be perceived as easy in that it's not too long and the greens are slow but its narrow 20 meter fairways and if you're off the fairway then you're in the trees and chipping out.

A low slope rating would probably push me to leave to a "harder course" where I can take driver off every tee and spay it a little.

charlieIRL · 20-09-2019 10:48am

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Review each course. Most have already been done.

Lot of courses are done a good while now.

DuckSlice · 20-09-2019 2:41pm

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how each course is rated.

My course could be perceived as easy in that it's not too long and the greens are slow but its narrow 20 meter fairways and if you're off the fairway then you're in the trees and chipping out.

A low slope rating would probably push me to leave to a "harder course" where I can take driver off every tee and spay it a little.

They are supposed to take into account landing zones and hazards so they will surely take into account width of fairways etc.

bestleftfull3 · 24-09-2019 4:56am

Long time lurker first time poster, I'm based in Ausralia and we currently use the new system that will be implemented in Ireland. Been Irish and have played at home before, it's not a major change! Confusing at first but makes sense in the end. Each course will have 2, maybe more slope ratings. Based on my current club in Melbourne, we only have 2. 131 which is our regular weekend (Stableford, v par comps) on medal day off the back sticks the rating changes to 138. DSR then comes in to play also.

There will initially be a bit of administration work but in the end it will be all computerised. Tried to add a screenshot of how it works but can't figure out how but example is: my current GA is 11.2 X 131 (slope rating on general comp day) divide by 113 (neutral slope rating) = 13 (Daily Handicap)

For weekend comps our cards are printed with the "daily handicap" which is what you play off on the day of competition. If it's done correctly it's quite good, you can actually follow a live leaderboard throughout the day to see scores coming in and where you sit on the leaderboard.

Here's a link for more info
https://www.golf.org.au/newgahandicapsystem

Rikand · 24-09-2019 8:32am

Probably very simple to implement in Australia because every day is 30 degrees and gorgeous

Russman · 24-09-2019 9:30am

bestleftfull3 wrote: »

Long time lurker first time poster, I'm based in Ausralia and we currently use the new system that will be implemented in Ireland. Been Irish and have played at home before, it's not a major change! Confusing at first but makes sense in the end. Each course will have 2, maybe more slope ratings. Based on my current club in Melbourne, we only have 2. 131 which is our regular weekend (Stableford, v par comps) on medal day off the back sticks the rating changes to 138. DSR then comes in to play also.

There will initially be a bit of administration work but in the end it will be all computerised. Tried to add a screenshot of how it works but can't figure out how but example is: my current GA is 11.2 X 131 (slope rating on general comp day) divide by 113 (neutral slope rating) = 13 (Daily Handicap)

For weekend comps our cards are printed with the "daily handicap" which is what you play off on the day of competition. If it's done correctly it's quite good, you can actually follow a live leaderboard throughout the day to see scores coming in and where you sit on the leaderboard.

Here's a link for more info
https://www.golf.org.au/newgahandicapsystem

That's a really good link, probably the easiest one to follow that I've seen, thanks !

bestleftfull3 · 24-09-2019 10:51am

Rikand wrote: »

Probably very simple to implement in Australia because every day is 30 degrees and gorgeous

you'd be surprised of some of the sandbelts I've played in the winter!! haha
DSR then comes in to play

bestleftfull3 · 24-09-2019 10:53am

Russman wrote: »

That's a really good link, probably the easiest one to follow that I've seen, thanks !

once you get used to it it's not too bad! it takes out the massive cut that you could get for having the round of your life and then not been ever able to have that round again. It also gives you basically the average of what you should be playing off

mighty magpie · 24-09-2019 12:11pm

bestleftfull3 wrote: »

you'd be surprised of some of the sandbelts I've played in the winter!! haha
DSR then comes in to play

What type of conditions are the initial slope ratings of 131 and 138 based on and how much can they go up or down by based on weather conditions, pin placements etc?

Seve OB · 24-09-2019 6:13pm

bestleftfull3 wrote: »

. If it's done correctly it's quite good, you can actually follow a live leaderboard throughout the day to see scores coming in and where you sit on the leaderboard.

That can be done here currently on the how did I do system which seems to be the most popular in clubs in Ireland. I’m sure the other systems such as master scoreboard can probably do it also.

It is turned off though in most places. I know a clubs who used to have it turned on but it has since been turned off, for what reason I’m not exactly sure. Someone told me it was under instruction from the GUI but I’m not sure how true that is. I don’t think it should be turned on though. I’m a traditionalist and like to be kept in suspense till all the scores are in before announcing results. Also there is nothing more depressing that checking in to a comp and seeing the scores on the screen before you go out knowing that you are gonna need at least 44 points to be in contention today

spacecoyote · 24-09-2019 6:21pm

Seve OB wrote: »

That can be done here currently on the how did I do system which seems to be the most popular in clubs in Ireland. I’m sure the other systems such as master scoreboard can probably do it also.

It is turned off though in most places. I know a clubs who used to have it turned on but it has since been turned off, for what reason I’m not exactly sure. Someone told me it was under instruction from the GUI but I’m not sure how true that is. I don’t think it should be turned on though. I’m a traditionalist and like to be kept in suspense till all the scores are in before announcing results. Also there is nothing more depressing that checking in to a comp and seeing the scores on the screen before you go out knowing that you are gonna need at least 44 points to be in contention today

I think that's actually part or the problem Seve. From what I've heard you had guys checking leaderboards when they arrived later in the day, before their rounds & cancelling tee times because they wouldn't have a chance to win

bestleftfull3 · 24-09-2019 10:23pm

mighty magpie wrote: »

What type of conditions are the initial slope ratings of 131 and 138 based on and how much can they go up or down by based on weather conditions, pin placements etc?

Can't tell you what conditions they are based on but I'm pretty sure when they are set they won't change.

DSR would generally be high if weather conditions and pins are tough so this is where it would come in to play

Weather conditions don't determine slope rating

mike12 · 25-09-2019 10:05am

mighty magpie wrote: »

What type of conditions are the initial slope ratings of 131 and 138 based on and how much can they go up or down by based on weather conditions, pin placements etc?

So the course rating is basically our SSS for the course based on how a scratch golfer would play the course.
The slope rating is basically how a bogey golfer would play the course but not based on scoring 113 is the standard.
Some courses play easier for bogey golfers so the slope will be nearer to the course rating some will play harder.

paulos53 · 18-11-2019 7:46pm

There are some details here from the USGA on the new system

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system--education-resources.html

The newest bit of information for me is how Exceptional Scoring Reduction will work. Looks like you get a 1 shot cut for beating your handicap by 7 shots and a 2 shot cut for beating it by 10

Seve OB · 18-11-2019 10:06pm

so there is a cap on how high you can go

5, yes 5 shots.... thats brutal, we are currently at one, i think 2 is more than fair unless exceptional circumstances prevail. i really hope this gets constantly reviewed

prawnsambo · 18-11-2019 10:10pm

Seve OB wrote: »

so there is a cap on how high you can go

5, yes 5 shots.... thats brutal, we are currently at one, i think 2 is more than fair unless exceptional circumstances prevail. i really hope this gets constantly reviewed

We are the only country in CONGU with the 1SL. And the essence of the WHS is constant review. And it's very hard to manipulate a system that looks back over twenty rounds.

Seve OB · 18-11-2019 10:14pm

2nd November 2020 looks like our go live date

https://www.golfnet.ie/news/golfnet/4512/world-handicap-system

GolfNut33 · 18-11-2019 10:19pm

Seve OB wrote: »

so there is a cap on how high you can go

5, yes 5 shots.... thats brutal, we are currently at one, i think 2 is more than fair unless exceptional circumstances prevail. i really hope this gets constantly reviewed

I'm dreading it. This will be the end of golf as we know it. The bandits will run amok.

prawnsambo · 18-11-2019 10:29pm

GolfNut33 wrote: »

I'm dreading it. This will be the end of golf as we know it. The bandits will run amok.

Yeah. I presume you were also dreading the 54 handicappers when they hit the courses of Ireland on the 1st January. A similar hysterical response was bandied about around these here parts back when that was announced.

GolfNut33 · 19-11-2019 4:37pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah. I presume you were also dreading the 54 handicappers when they hit the courses of Ireland on the 1st January. A similar hysterical response was bandied about around these here parts back when that was announced.

Well, let's see how hysterical it is when its in full flow and the bandits are clearing up, domestically and interclub.

Russman · 19-11-2019 7:30pm

GolfNut33 wrote: »

Well, let's see how hysterical it is when its in full flow and the bandits are clearing up, domestically and interclub.

How will you know whether a winner is a bandit or not ?

19-11-2019 7:49pm

Russman wrote: »

How will you know whether a winner is a bandit or not ?

Would you be known as one in your club?

GolfNut33 · 19-11-2019 8:40pm

Russman wrote: »

How will you know whether a winner is a bandit or not ?

You get to know them. Lads who actively seek out the .1, known to pull when they know they might get cut. Every club has them and most active members know them.

Russman · 19-11-2019 8:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Would you be known as one in your club?

I very much doubt it

TheDoc · 19-11-2019 8:47pm

Been out of golf membership a good few years and hoping to come back. Been reading about this recently.

It’s a system that has me genuinely turned off entirely. My handicap and bettering myself was always my aim and enjoyment from golf.

This seems an absolute bags.

Knowing golf clubs and players whatever about individuals mucking around could literally see entire committees fiddling around with course layouts to get what they think will be better grading for club comps.

Russman · 19-11-2019 8:52pm

GolfNut33 wrote: »

You get to know them. Lads who actively seek out the .1, known to pull when they know they might get cut. Every club has them and most active members know them.

It was slightly tongue in cheek, apologies. These mythical guys who actively look for 0.1, pull when going well etc etc are, imho, few and far between in reality. For sure every club has one or two, but the vast majority of players fall into the normal and expected pattern of one good round every so often with mostly bad rounds in between, hence they stay in the same broad handicap range.
No system will ever catch genuine handicap cheats.

My point is that there will always be a winner of a competition, too many times I’ve seen that if the winner isn’t you, they must be a bandit (obviously not yourself specifically), yet every winner can’t be a bandit.

Russman · 19-11-2019 8:57pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Been out of golf membership a good few years and hoping to come back. Been reading about this recently.

It’s a system that has me genuinely turned off entirely. My handicap and bettering myself was always my aim and enjoyment from golf.

This seems an absolute bags.

Knowing golf clubs and players whatever about individuals mucking around could literally see entire committees fiddling around with course layouts to get what they think will be better grading for club comps.

I wouldn’t let the system put you off enjoying your golf. You can still try to shoot your best score. I’d have reasonable faith that the course gradings will be fair - I think it was something like 10 people came to do ours back in the summer. Committees won’t really have any input.

prawnsambo · 19-11-2019 9:12pm

GolfNut33 wrote: »

You get to know them. Lads who actively seek out the .1, known to pull when they know they might get cut. Every club has them and most active members know them.

I wouldn't doubt it. But I suspect dysfunctional behaviour comes from a dysfunctional system. The current CONGU system produces a handicap graph that looks like a trip over the Alps. And especially for Category 3 and above golfers. A score of just two shots better than net par will take away 80% of your 1SL if you're a Cat 4. A system that smooths out those bumps and takes what could be a minimum of six months' scores has to be an improvement. I for one, welcome our new World handicap masters.

Golfgraffix · 26-11-2019 8:47am

Was at the Leinster Branch AGM last night and they gave a presentation on WHS. it was very basic and they would not allow any questions, which seemed a little odd.

Absolutely no mention of the number of shots a player can get back in a year.

They did say that fourball better ball will now count as qualifying for handicap

New Worldwide Handicap System

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