Home heating automation

limnam · 10-02-2020 2:05pm

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

I'm getting a Tado thermostat installed today & thinking of going for smart TRV valves too.

I have five rooms with one radiator each (thermostat in living room) - do I need four of these (i.e. in the room with the thermostat do i need one for the radiator too?)

Also are these ok to install yourself?

If you want to zone/control at the radiator you need one for each radiator

Handy to install

deezell · 10-02-2020 5:14pm

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

I'm getting a Tado thermostat installed today & thinking of going for smart TRV valves too.

I have five rooms with one radiator each (thermostat in living room) - do I need four of these (i.e. in the room with the thermostat do i need one for the radiator too?)

Also are these ok to install yourself?

If you already have mechanical TRVs on the rads, you just replace the head with the Tado. If the valves are standard screw down types, youll need to replace these with TRV plunger valve bodies, which are only a few euros each but not a trivial diy job to swap out. For full control you should have a smart TRV in the main stat location, the main stat becomes the temperature sensor for the living room, the TRV is slaved to it. Other TRVs can then call the boiler via the main stat, while it keeps the living room one closed if nit needed

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 10-02-2020 11:22pm

Is it possible to get a power supply for a Nest 3rd gen here and have it portable, like they do in the US? I already have a stand for it.

deezell · 10-02-2020 11:28pm

Axl Defeated Nitroglycerine wrote: »

Is it possible to get a power supply for a Nest 3rd gen here and have it portable, like they do in the US? I already have a stand for it.

Comes with it? Like a phone charger.

un5byh7sqpd2x0 · 11-02-2020 12:14am

deezell wrote: »

Comes with it? Like a phone charger.
Any decent micro usb charger should do.

Doesn’t come with it unfortunately. There is a micro usb connection on it (one on the heatlink too) but I assumed it was just for diagnostics. I’ll give it a go, thanks

Krombopulos Michael · 11-02-2020 9:08am

Axl Defeated Nitroglycerine wrote: »

Is it possible to get a power supply for a Nest 3rd gen here and have it portable, like they do in the US? I already have a stand for it.

I looked into this before. Is your stand just a plastic stand, or does it have the bast plate with the connector?

If its just the plastic stand, you need a separate base plate to put on the stand and nest do not sell this separately.

If you have a stand with a base plate, then any micro USB charger will work.

xckjoo · 11-02-2020 1:15pm

bluemachaveli wrote: »

I haven't tried that Raspberry Pi version, but I have kind of gone a similar route by putting together my own system using Home Assistant. I've a similar setup to yourself with 2 zone heating and an additional zone for hot water. I removed the heating controller and installed a Sonoff Pro flashed with Tasmota in it's place.

This gave me basic on/off switches for each zone in Home Assistant. To get an accurate reading of the temp in each room, I put in some Zigbee sensors around the house. With everything set up, I created two new sensors based on the average temp upstairs & downstairs and fed these into a software based Thermostat.

I've some basic automations set up so far, but hope to amp these up in the future. For remote access, I use the home kit integration to push everything through to the Home app on my phone and share out with the rest of the household that way.

I'm tempted to do this as I've already got home-assistant up and running (even if I haven't anything too fancy working on it yet

). We've a basic single zone heating set-up with oil boiler and a hot water immersion. Currently have simple analog timers to control it. Two quick questions if you don't mind:

Is it worth doing? Is there actually a benefit in reducing heating costs?
Any concerns about the max current for that relay being 10A?

deezell · 11-02-2020 3:50pm

xckjoo wrote: »

I'm tempted to do this as I've already got home-assistant up and running (even if I haven't anything too fancy working on it yet ). We've a basic single zone heating set-up with oil boiler and a hot water immersion. Currently have simple analog timers to control it. Two quick questions if you don't mind:
Is it worth doing? Is there actually a benefit in reducing heating costs?

Any concerns about the max current for that relay being 10A?

10a is insufficient current rating for an electric immersion element. You will need a mains operated relay rated at a minimum of 16a. You could program two channels and strap their two contacts together on the sonoff pro to double capacity, but this would not be recommended, as it's likely one might fail to open, overloading the other.

xckjoo · 11-02-2020 4:02pm

deezell wrote: »

10a is insufficient current rating for an electric immersion element. You will need a mains operated relay rated at a minimum of 16a. You could program two channels and strap their two contacts together on the sonoff pro to double capacity, but this would not be recommended, as it's likely one might fail to open, overloading the other.

Ya I've been leaning towards a different setup with something like a Shelly relay since posting that. The RF button override in the Sonoff was appealing to me but I think the Shelly allows for including a physical switch to bypass it if needs be. Could potentially leave the existing controls in-place and leave it off unless I need to override it (need to have a better look at the manual to be sure). Don't worry, I won't be installing anything unless I'm sure it's safe :pac:
Any thoughts on if it's worth doing?

deezell · 11-02-2020 10:05pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Ya I've been leaning towards a different setup with something like a Shelly relay since posting that. The RF button override in the Sonoff was appealing to me but I think the Shelly allows for including a physical switch to bypass it if needs be. Could potentially leave the existing controls in-place and leave it off unless I need to override it (need to have a better look at the manual to be sure). Don't worry, I won't be installing anything unless I'm sure it's safe :pac:
Any thoughts on if it's worth doing?

As far as electric immersion heating goes, you'll only save money if you have a highly insulated HW cylinder. All the clever turning on or off is pointless if any water you've heated cools down rapidly. Worse, when the cylinder goes (rapidly) cold while the immersion is off, you have to reheat a lot of water just to get a small amount at the temperature you need, like boiling a full 2 litre kettle for a single cup of tea.

podgeandrodge · 12-02-2020 11:37am

Hi, sorry for asking questions that I'm sure have been asked before, but a long thread...

1) Really basic system - originally 2 zone (back and front of a 2 story house rather than upstairs downstairs), this is off and used only as 1 Zone for the whole house. We are not too interested in trying to heat specific parts of the house and just want the house warm when we need it to be.
All controlled by a timer with 3 slots per day and a boost function (which we regularly use).

2) hot water from same system, no separate control other than immersion switch at cylinder for manual heat.

3) No real interest in learning function, but want to be able to schedule different time slots for different days.

4) When going on holidays, would like to be able to remote control the system e.g. if left off while away, remotely start it up to heat the house a few hours before we get back on, say, a Friday, as an alternative to having to heat the house every Friday in anticipation of arriving home on the final Friday if you understand me.

I've seen that Nest doesn't have a boost, and read here that some people say just turn the temperature up overall, but we are conditioned to want to occasionally turn heating on intermittently for an extra hour without having to re-schedule.

I believe Hive might have the boost, but not sure if it suits my simple enough setup.

My rads appear to have numbers on the dials so presume they are those thermostat ones.

Thanks in advance for a view on my best options!

xckjoo · 12-02-2020 1:07pm

deezell wrote: »

As far as electric immersion heating goes, you'll only save money if you have a highly insulated HW cylinder. All the clever turning on or off is pointless if any water you've heated cools down rapidly. Worse, when the cylinder goes (rapidly) cold while the immersion is off, you have to reheat a lot of water just to get a small amount at the temperature you need, like boiling a full 2 litre kettle for a single cup of tea.

Cheers. I should have said that the oil heating heats the water too so we don't need the immersion too often. It's a new tank so well insulated but the piping layout is poor so the hot water leeches upstairs when the heat isn't on (at least that's what our plumber said). I'm thinking of seeing if I can find a place to attach a temp sensor so I can automate a "shower" event that'll switch on the immersion if there isn't enough hot water.
I'll go and do some research and try and figure out some wiring configs to do what I want.

deezell · 12-02-2020 3:26pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Cheers. I should have said that the oil heating heats the water too so we don't need the immersion too often. It's a new tank so well insulated but the piping layout is poor so the hot water leeches upstairs when the heat isn't on (at least that's what our plumber said). I'm thinking of seeing if I can find a place to attach a temp sensor so I can automate a "shower" event that'll switch on the immersion if there isn't enough hot water.
I'll go and do some research and try and figure out some wiring configs to do what I want.

It would make sense to fit a 3 port valve to give you independent zones for CH and HW, then you can heat the cylinder occasionally and less expensively from the oil without gravity feeding the upstairs radiators. Its ironic you have a modern well insulated cylinder, only to have a gravity circuit from it to open upstairs rads. If the cylinder is on the hot flow via the pump from the boiler, simple non return valves in the hot flow to both will prevent reverse movement of heated water from cylinder to rads. Once this is done a well insulated cylinder will keep its heated water for a much longer time, saving you a lot of oil or electricity

xckjoo · 12-02-2020 4:11pm

deezell wrote: »

It would make sense to fit a 3 port valve to give you independent zones for CH and HW, then you can heat the cylinder occasionally and less expensively from the oil without gravity feeding the upstairs radiators. Its ironic you have a modern well insulated cylinder, only to have a gravity circuit from it to open upstairs rads. If the cylinder is on the hot flow via the pump from the boiler, simple non return valves in the hot flow to both will prevent reverse movement of heated water from cylinder to rads. Once this is done a well insulated cylinder will keep its heated water for a much longer time, saving you a lot of oil or electricity

Makes sense. I've a few jobs for the plumber to do so might add that to it. Is it a big job or something they could knock out in 5mins? Any recommendations on a valve to get? Something I could add to the home-assistant setup would be good but I'm a believer in reliability over everything else.

We had to add the cylinder before moving in as the old one was ready to go and there was no immersion at all. You had to heat the whole house to have a shower :pac:
Thanks for the advice by the way. Appreciate it. I'll talk it all through with my plumber before I do anything. We've someone now that's reliable and knows the system somewhat.

deezell · 12-02-2020 6:28pm

xckjoo wrote: »

Makes sense. I've a few jobs for the plumber to do so might add that to it. Is it a big job or something they could knock out in 5mins? Any recommendations on a valve to get? Something I could add to the home-assistant setup would be good but I'm a believer in reliability over everything else.

We had to add the cylinder before moving in as the old one was ready to go and there was no immersion at all. You had to heat the whole house to have a shower :pac:
Thanks for the advice by the way. Appreciate it. I'll talk it all through with my plumber before I do anything. We've someone now that's reliable and knows the system somewhat.

Your plumber will have his favourites, these EPH popular and affordable,
https://www.screwfix.ie/p/eph-controls-v221p-2-port-motorized-valve-compression-fitting/227hp

Seperate 2 port valves, S plan, one each for HW and CH are a simpler plumbing job and less finikity than the all in one 3 port, a pair of 2 ports can cost less than a 3 port. Wiring is easier to understand also, each valve opens on request from its timer/smart stat receiver box live call for heat, the valves then call the boiler via their in built relays. A pair will cost €100 or less for trade, installation could be a few hours, then wiring to your Hive/Nest/Drayton wiser/Tado CH/HW smart controller and stat.

Clareman · 13-02-2020 10:25am

I currently have a Netamo smart thermostat and I'm considering getting smart radiator valves as there's times that I don't need to have heat on in some rooms but I do in others (e.g. stove on downstairs can mean upstairs is cold), I only have a single zone heating system and changing that would be a NIGHTMARE.

First off, is it worth getting them, not for a price point of view but for a convenience, do they work? Also, I'm thinking of changing the Netamo to a Nest as every other piece of smart kit I have is Nest/Google is it worth changing and if it is what valves should I get to work with the Nest?

paulgrogan.eu · 13-02-2020 1:18pm

Clareman wrote: »

I currently have a Netamo smart thermostat and I'm considering getting smart radiator valves as there's times that I don't need to have heat on in some rooms but I do in others (e.g. stove on downstairs can mean upstairs is cold), I only have a single zone heating system and changing that would be a NIGHTMARE.

First off, is it worth getting them, not for a price point of view but for a convenience, do they work? Also, I'm thinking of changing the Netamo to a Nest as every other piece of smart kit I have is Nest/Google is it worth changing and if it is what valves should I get to work with the Nest?

Great question. I've got a tado system ready to be installed in my home soon, but would be very interested to hear what users of Smart TRV's think of them in the real world, particularly if they have them in a good number of rooms.

Thanks in advance!

deezell · 15-02-2020 9:20am

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

Great question. I've got a tado system ready to be installed in my home soon, but would be very interested to hear what users of Smart TRV's think of them in the real world, particularly if they have them in a good number of rooms.

Thanks in advance!

I would recommend TRVs as a relatively low cost method of gaining zones, and in particular turning down or off unused rooms, at the same time having a minimum temperature set to prevent condensation. Standard TRVs will do this to a point, but can't call for heat and can't be scheduled for an occasional damp prevention boost. Changing the radiator valves from screw type to TRV plunger type is the biggest expense, system will need draining, but once drained a good plumber woukd rip through all of them, though the replacement valves may not be a physical thread or spigot match for the older screw valves, increasing labour cost.. Replacement plunger valve bodies can be bought for under 10 euros, as little as £3.50 in Bangor Co. Down.
https://www.stevensonplumbing.co.uk/myson-trv2way-valve-body.html
If you already have plunger pin valves, its a diy job to add smart TRVs

deezell · 15-02-2020 9:29am

Clareman wrote: »

.....Also, I'm thinking of changing the Netamo to a Nest as every other piece of smart kit I have is Nest/Google is it worth changing and if it is what valves should I get to work with the Nest?

As Nest don't make own brand TRVs, any other brand you install would not be able to communicate with the boiler to call for heat, they would depend on the Nest being 'on' at the time. Using conditional commands in smart home apps, or IFTTT app, you can detect when a smart TRV opens and automatically call the boiler via the nest, by turning up the general nest temperature perhaps. You can also call the boiler independently using a smart relay such as SonOff.

xl500 · 15-02-2020 10:54am

I have Evohome with Smart TRVs works really well I have them on at least 9 rads

work really well keep room temp steady only issue and this applies to all Smart TRVs they can be noisy for bedrooms

LowOdour · 15-02-2020 10:55am

Trying to do some research into improving home heating setup, and there is so many automation options it's quite overwhelming! I don't like the general "recommended me.." question, so apologies in this instance.

So, set-up is somewhat standard. 2 zones (upstairs and downstairs) and hot water. We have Sunvic 307 XLS programmer, and 2 bog standard theromstats. Thermostats probably need to be moved. One sits in hot press beside H/W cylinder!
Biggest issue with programmer is there are just 2 timers for each zone, so can time heat/HW to come on for morning and evening only.

Side note, We have a stove with a back boiler, and due to some plumbing issues, we cannot run CH/HW when stove has fire on. Stove only heats up zone, so couldn't run oil to do rooms down at the same time.

Signed up to Electric Ireand, so was getting a Nest in the deal but can cancel that. I'd need an extra 2 of them to get my system to work

In simple terms, I want something that can manage 2 zones & H/W, have more that 2 time slots and can easily be switched off.

I had thought about using 3 old style timer clocks, but would like to move forward with the times!

deezell · 15-02-2020 3:01pm

LowOdour wrote: »

Trying to do some research into improving home heating setup, and there is so many automation options it's quite overwhelming! I don't like the general "recommended me.." question, so apologies in this instance.

So, set-up is somewhat standard. 2 zones (upstairs and downstairs) and hot water. We have Sunvic 307 XLS programmer, and 2 bog standard theromstats. Thermostats probably need to be moved. One sits in hot press beside H/W cylinder!
Biggest issue with programmer is there are just 2 timers for each zone, so can time heat/HW to come on for morning and evening only.

Side note, We have a stove with a back boiler, and due to some plumbing issues, we cannot run CH/HW when stove has fire on. Stove only heats up zone, so couldn't run oil to do rooms down at the same time.

Signed up to Electric Ireand, so was getting a Nest in the deal but can cancel that. I'd need an extra 2 of them to get my system to work

In simple terms, I want something that can manage 2 zones & H/W, have more that 2 time slots and can easily be switched off.

I had thought about using 3 old style timer clocks, but would like to move forward with the times!

You'll only need two Nests, each nest can control 1 CH and 1 HW, so that's your 2 CH and 1 HW sorted.
Consider getting a bit of plumbing done to blend the stove hw with the boiler hw, using a little tank called a neutraliser or manifold. A simple stove stat on the pipe and a relay box will allow the stove to pump its hot water to the blender, and a relay will cut the oil boiler while the stove is supplying hw. The various zone valves will still direct the hw to rads or cylinder, oblivious of the source. Non return valve on the boier circuit prevents stove hw back feeding into the boiler. You probably have and will continue to need at least one heat sink off the stove circuit thats not via a valve, such as a gravity feed to an extra coil on the HW cylinder, or an upstairs radiator, usually the bathroom.
Consider other stats such as hive and drayton wiser, or Tado, though you are probably better off cost wise with only paying for one of two Nests with the offer. Nests are wireless by default, though can be low voltage wired, so you can position away from the dud hot press location of your upstairs stat. Drayton wiser kit 3 receiver literally replaces your Sunvic wire for wire, a diy job, its a lot less than 1 Nest kit.
Check out stove/oil manifolds here, and lots of free schematics.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product-category/nrg-zone-manifolds/

LowOdour · 15-02-2020 3:31pm

deezell wrote: »

You'll only need two Nests, each nest can control 1 CH and 1 HW, so that's your 2 CH and 1 HW sorted.
Consider getting a bit of plumbing done to blend the stove hw with the boiler hw, using a little tank called a neutraliser or manifold. A simple stove stat on the pipe and a relay box will allow the stove to pump its hot water to the blender, and a relay will cut the oil boiler while the stove is supplying hw. The various zone valves will still direct the hw to rads or cylinder, oblivious of the source. Non return valve on the boier circuit prevents stove hw back feeding into the boiler. You probably have and will continue to need at least one heat sink off the stove circuit thats not via a valve, such as a gravity feed to an extra coil on the HW cylinder, or an upstairs radiator, usually the bathroom.
Consider other stats such as hive and drayton wiser, or Tado, though you are probably better off cost wise with only paying for one of two Nests with the offer. Nests are wireless by default, though can be low voltage wired, so you can position away from the dud hot press location of your upstairs stat. Drayton wiser kit 3 receiver literally replaces your Sunvic wire for wire, a diy job, its a lot less than 1 Nest kit.
Check out stove/oil manifolds here, and lots of free schematics.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/product-category/nrg-zone-manifolds/

Thanks Deezell, great reply.Where were you back a few years ago!!

In terms of my stove plumbing, I've had a few different people look at it in last 8 years. Basically had an unusable stove for 5 years. 18 months ago, a guy done re-work on it and we have what we have. Think said problem lies with us missing one pipe in heating system, which would require a very expensive job adding it in. Think boiler and stove are sharing something on the circuit.. TBF, we now have a working stove that heats upstairs and HW, so we happy to live with it.

If we get the 2 Nest's in, the hopefully that will help things even more.

The one thing with the nest is that I don't think you can set up a schedule as with a standard programmer...possibly you would need to set the lowest temp at certain points of the day so that it's not "on"

podgeandrodge · 15-02-2020 8:42pm

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Hi, sorry for asking questions that I'm sure have been asked before, but a long thread...

1) Really basic system - originally 2 zone (back and front of a 2 story house rather than upstairs downstairs), this is off and used only as 1 Zone for the whole house. We are not too interested in trying to heat specific parts of the house and just want the house warm when we need it to be.
All controlled by a timer with 3 slots per day and a boost function (which we regularly use).

2) hot water from same system, no separate control other than immersion switch at cylinder for manual heat.

3) No real interest in learning function, but want to be able to schedule different time slots for different days.

4) When going on holidays, would like to be able to remote control the system e.g. if left off while away, remotely start it up to heat the house a few hours before we get back on, say, a Friday, as an alternative to having to heat the house every Friday in anticipation of arriving home on the final Friday if you understand me.

I've seen that Nest doesn't have a boost, and read here that some people say just turn the temperature up overall, but we are conditioned to want to occasionally turn heating on intermittently for an extra hour without having to re-schedule.

I believe Hive might have the boost, but not sure if it suits my simple enough setup.

My rads appear to have numbers on the dials so presume they are those thermostat ones.

Thanks in advance for a view on my best options!

I've gone for Hive through Bord Gais.

kenco · 16-02-2020 5:04pm

Folks

Question. I have got a Wiser 3 kit though I think it one zone too many for me needs (might be in time)

My current Danfoss backplate appears to be wired to points 3 and 4 so any idea which one of them is central heating and which one is hot water?

The Wiser needs to be 1 CH, 2 HW and 3 CH so I assume I might just have to change the current wiring from 4 to either 2 or 3 and then should be good to go?

Appreciate any help here!

deezell · 16-02-2020 6:14pm

kenco wrote: »

Folks

Question. I have got a Wiser 3 kit though I think it one zone too many for me needs (might be in time)

My current Danfoss backplate appears to be wired to points 3 and 4 so any idea which one of them is central heating and which one is hot water?

The Wiser needs to be 1 CH, 2 HW and 3 CH so I assume I might just have to change the current wiring from 4 to either 2 or 3 and then should be good to go?

Appreciate any help here!

On the Danfoss, 3 is HW on and 4 is CH on. Had you bought a Kit 2, the backplate is standard and you would only have had to unclip the Danfoss and clip on the Wiser.

deezell · 16-02-2020 6:29pm

Danfoss is the same as Kit-2, so just swap back plate wires 3 and 4 to match Kit-3, 2 and 1.

kenco · 16-02-2020 7:01pm

Deezell you are a star! Many thanks!

filemoon · 19-02-2020 9:33am

Hi,

I do have (2) Nests - (2zones + hot water) I'm happy with Nest but looking for more zones management, I'm interested to add some eTRV. Nest is well integrated into Google Home, what if I will get the Tado eTRVs and Tado bridge and add them into the Google Home. Can they talk to Nest - can tado eTRV trigger heating from Nest thermostat if needed?

Regards Chris

deezell · 19-02-2020 1:24pm

filemoon wrote: »

Hi,

I do have (2) Nests - (2zones + hot water) I'm happy with Nest but looking for more zones management, I'm interested to add some eTRV. Nest is well integrated into Google Home, what if I will get the Tado eTRVs and Tado bridge and add them into the Google Home. Can they talk to Nest - can tado eTRV trigger heating from Nest thermostat if needed?

Regards Chris

I'm not sure if Google home/ google assistant can automatically initiate an action without a command?, but IFTTT can, so you can create an IFTTT applet based on a condition, such as If the tado TRVs are below a set temperature, the Nest can be turned up to call the boiler to supply the radiators.
The Tado IFTTT trigger is "temperature falls below threshold" , with a temperature threshold set in the IFTTT applet, but I don't see one for "temperature falls below schedule" or "TRV opens". It all depends on how the smart stuff like Alexa, Stringify, Google etc. can read the status of devices and act conditionally on them. There's not much point in having the TRVs set to open according to a nice variable schedule of times and temperatures, unless you can Read the opening of the TRVs as a trigger signal to a routine designed to turn on/up the Nest.
It would be easier just to get a tado stat and use it as an actual boiler switch receiver for the TRVs, with out its own temperature measuring function being implemented. this is a feature of the tado stat that is not well understood, in that is can be just the receiver relay for TRVs, not to be confused with the extension Kit which is a wireless receiver for the Tado stat itself only (plus an optional HW relay contact terminal)

Home heating automation

Comments