New Worldwide Handicap System

Seve OB · 03-05-2019 12:18pm

reading some of that is quite confusing. They seem to use round numbers in US. Ie maximum score is a 7... but what if that's a par 5? and they just point our strokes with no mention of the stroke index the hole is. do they not use them in US? possibly not as the Yanks do tend to play strokes a lot as opposed to us playing mostly stableford

mighty magpie · 03-05-2019 12:32pm

Below is my understanding after reading that.

(Score - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope Rating**

*Course rating is calculated using 50 scores of scratch golfers.
***Slope rating is calculated using scores of "bogey golfers"

Calculate the above formula for last 20 rounds. Take average of best 8.

USA's multiplier is 0.96 of this average. Could be different for us in future.

This is going to be a struggle. I play with teen handicappers who don't understand what a buffer is or what category they are.

Often if they are not at 17/18 points after 9, "the card is gone" then they don't try for buffer!

15-07-2019 12:12am

According the this article under the new WHS a golfer can get a max of 5 shots back a year.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/global-golf-handicap-system-stops-cheats/

We moved from a max of 2 shots back per year to a max of 1. How is allowing 5 shots per year going to help with banditry. Especially if they allow casual rounds to be included.

Russman · 15-07-2019 9:30am

Deleted User wrote: »

According the this article under the new WHS a golfer can get a max of 5 shots back a year.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/global-golf-handicap-system-stops-cheats/

We moved from a max of 2 shots back per year to a max of 1. How is allowing 5 shots per year going to help with banditry. Especially if they allow casual rounds to be included.

Reading the workings in that article makes my head hurt !!:)
I'm guessing that potentially everyone's handicap will be a lot more fluid than under the current system. I dunno, ultimately you can't really stop someone gaming the system if they're determined to, but how many people will go to the effort of playing 20 rounds where their best 8 are bad enough to give a big increase ? I'd say it'll stop the more casual "bandit" who doesn't mind his handicap going up but doesn't go to a huge effort to make it happen. It'll be interesting to see how it works out in GUI land.......

Seve OB · 15-07-2019 10:31am

5 shots is crazy.
1-2 would have been fair
3 would be acceptable

reviews for others, ah well, it remains to be seen how it will impact I suppose

doublecross · 15-07-2019 11:10am

If this comes in then it will be the end of competition golf, which will be a big loss in revenue for most clubs.

redzerdrog · 15-07-2019 11:14am

doublecross wrote: »

If this comes in then it will be the end of competition golf, which will be a big loss in revenue for most clubs.

Bit dramatic

doublecross · 15-07-2019 11:28am

redzerdrog wrote: »

Bit dramatic

Maybe, but I'm not going to travel to a junior scratch cup or open knowing other players are potentially getting additional 5 shots. Someone jumping from 5 to 10. Seems crazy.
I only play comps for my handicap, don't care about prizes. Why would I pay comp fee when I can lower my handicap playing casual golf. I suppose some other golfers are all about prizes and are happy to get 5 shots back.

Russman · 15-07-2019 1:34pm

I don't think it'll be the end of competitive golf, we'll just have to view it completely differently.
Its not going to be like now, where if you shoot a good score you'll know you're losing 0.8 or whatever, it'll take a bit of working out. Ok, you'll possibly know the worst round out of your 8 best is X, and if you beat that it'll reduce your handicap. Then again, if playing for handicap it doesn't really matter what anyone else is shooting.
I suspect there'll be some local variations though with regard to the max increase, similar to the ESR being mandatory in Ireland but not in the UK.

But then there seems to be many variables with it too, I dunno, I'm not convinced its any better than CSS. The concept of adjusted gross score just doesn't sit well with me tbh. Why does a score need to be adjusted ? You took the amount of shots you took. I mean, I played (very badly) in the Junior Cup a few weeks ago, had a nightmare hole on the back nine where 3 balls into a hazard led to an 11 - that's what went down on my card, so why would my score need adjusting ? I just don't get it.

15-07-2019 3:01pm

I find it hard to get my head around a 5 shot increase when only a few years ago seemingly 2 shots was considered too much. Who dominated the WHS negotiations I wonder?

I could just about stomach 3 shots. 5 is madness.

slingerz · 15-07-2019 3:48pm

doublecross wrote: »

Maybe, but I'm not going to travel to a junior scratch cup or open knowing other players are potentially getting additional 5 shots. Someone jumping from 5 to 10. Seems crazy.
I only play comps for my handicap, don't care about prizes. Why would I pay comp fee when I can lower my handicap playing casual golf. I suppose some other golfers are all about prizes and are happy to get 5 shots back.

I'd have to agree.

It all seems very vague to me around how golf in Ireland is expecte to be played in 2020. We all play comps in our clubs so how are they going to work. How are scratch cups going to work? How are interclub matches going to work?

HighLine · 15-07-2019 3:53pm

I have a feeling it will be pushed back a year or 2. As for the 5 shots back.. farcical.

redzerdrog · 15-07-2019 5:00pm

The few people I know with American hcap seem to play off a lot lower than a gui hcap. Very small sample size but I know but there is lads I know that are 9/10 over there but wouldn't be a 14 here and there is a 13 I know in American that wouldn't be an 18 here.

Will we be starting off a much lower hcap to counteract the possible 5 shot increase?

Seve OB · 15-07-2019 6:08pm

Russman wrote: »

I suspect there'll be some local variations though with regard to the max increase, similar to the ESR being mandatory in Ireland but not in the UK.

I don’t think so, the whole point of it is to make one worldwide system, not a worldwide system which each country can tweak!

Seve OB · 15-07-2019 6:10pm

HighLine wrote: »

I have a feeling it will be pushed back a year or 2. As for the 5 shots back.. farcical.

Congu have already stated that it will not be ready on time and it will be late 2020 before they are able to roll it out. So yea, could well be sometime in 2021 but I can’t see it going much further than that.

fred funk }{ · 15-07-2019 6:41pm

Seriously open to banditry as it looks at the moment. Hopefully it'll be tweaked the right way to stop it. My guess is that it'll eventually be scrapped and we'll go back to what we have.

dan_ep82 · 15-07-2019 6:58pm

Seve OB wrote: »

Congu have already stated that it will not be ready on time and it will be late 2020 before they are able to roll it out. So yea, could well be sometime in 2021 but I can’t see it going much further than that.

Not surprised when they haven't put out alot of information on it. Seems like a real relaxed approach to something that will up end our system.

CalamariFritti · 15-07-2019 7:14pm

5 is laughable, wouldn't even call 3 acceptable. Leave it at 1 for now, max 2.

The article makes a big deal even out of the 5. Cheaters beware, you can only get 5 shots back per year, lol. I know folks who only think in .1s. Field day.

But I imagine (hope) local/national variations will be allowable. Otherwise.. I don't know.. it would be a big shake up if they fully implement this and I think most club golfers wouldn't like it.

15-07-2019 7:23pm

Have the GUI made any comments recently on this new WHS. The 5 shots, casual rounds etc.

spacecoyote · 16-07-2019 1:23am

redzerdrog wrote: »

The few people I know with American hcap seem to play off a lot lower than a gui hcap. Very small sample size but I know but there is less I know that are 9/10 over there but wouldn't be a 14 here and there is a 13 I know in American that wouldn't be an 18 here.

Will we be starting off a much lower hcap to counteract the possible 5 shot increase?

Have heard that in general. Assume that they end up low by playing a lot of casual golf with most short putts being given so you get a lot of artificial scores?

Russman · 16-07-2019 10:24am

spacecoyote wrote: »

Have heard that in general. Assume that they end up low by playing a lot of casual golf with most short putts being given so you get a lot of artificial scores?

It could be that's a factor alright. From what I've read there's very little competitive golf as we'd understand it over in the States, as in a weekly competition, so much of their golf is amongst themselves with sweeps, bets etc.
But the systems are so different its apples and oranges. You essentially disregard your bad rounds if they're not in your top 10 best ones (whereas we get 0.1 for a bad round), and then they only use 96% of the average, so its set up to be lower as a default.
I've seen it mentioned on other sites over the years that as a rule of thumb, a US handicap would be around 2 shots lower than a CONGU one.

fred funk }{ · 16-07-2019 11:38am

Russman wrote: »

It could be that's a factor alright. From what I've read there's very little competitive golf as we'd understand it over in the States, as in a weekly competition, so much of their golf is amongst themselves with sweeps, bets etc.
But the systems are so different its apples and oranges. You essentially disregard your bad rounds if they're not in your top 10 best ones (whereas we get 0.1 for a bad round), and then they only use 96% of the average, so its set up to be lower as a default.
I've seen it mentioned on other sites over the years that as a rule of thumb, a US handicap would be around 2 shots lower than a CONGU one.

Know an American who told me they have an app where they enter their score from any game they play. The app works out their HC. Not very accurate system or a system that'll work this part or the world.

martinkop · 16-07-2019 12:30pm

There is provisional for variation in the system region to region, so I assume casual rounds will not be counted here.

Enter name here · 16-07-2019 12:50pm

So much doubt about the new system. It works well and a lot better than the current Irish system. It makes the game inclusive for handicaps from all ranges and doesn't just cater to the whims of the low handicappers who seem to think the world revolves around them. Bandits will be bandits no matter what anyways, and the current system penalises high handicappers way too much for 1 good game of golf and then makes the high handicapper noncompetitive for the next 3 years on average. And the amount of times and comp games needed to get those 5 shots back and makes it a very expensive and lengthy process, so if the bandits want to take 6 months of throwing games to get 5 shots back then let them be. In addition local clubs can also report players for handicap blowing out and have a reduction applied if merited.

Also forgot to mention, in a comp event a maximum of 3 shots over par is the highest recorded, so if bandits try and have a 10 on a par 3 the system will still record it as a 6 for handicap purposes only. But it will funny to watch the bandits come in with a nice round and 1 10+ hole thinking they will get strokes back and will be sorely disappointed.

Mantis Toboggan · 16-07-2019 1:19pm

Current system seems much better, if it's not broke..

Russman · 16-07-2019 1:32pm

Enter name here wrote: »

So much doubt about the new system. It works well and a lot better than the current Irish system. It makes the game inclusive for handicaps from all ranges and doesn't just cater to the whims of the low handicappers who seem to think the world revolves around them. Bandits will be bandits no matter what anyways, and the current system penalises high handicappers way too much for 1 good game of golf and then makes the high handicapper noncompetitive for the next 3 years on average. And the amount of times and comp games needed to get those 5 shots back and makes it a very expensive and lengthy process, so if the bandits want to take 6 months of throwing games to get 5 shots back then let them be. In addition local clubs can also report players for handicap blowing out and have a reduction applied if merited.

Also forgot to mention, in a comp event a maximum of 3 shots over par is the highest recorded, so if bandits try and have a 10 on a par 3 the system will still record it as a 6 for handicap purposes only. But it will funny to watch the bandits come in with a nice round and 1 10+ hole thinking they will get strokes back and will be sorely disappointed.

I think this is because there's been so little info or "meat on the bone" put out by the ruling bodies so far. Now, it could well be that they themselves aren't sure about certain aspects and how to get them to work, but its leading to a lot of guesswork by lots of us.
Logically I sort of think that if pretty much most of the world, bar CONGU are using this system (or a close variant of it), it has to be better than what we have.

Interesting article (granted quite old), comparing the US and GB&I systems
http://www.popeofslope.com/scotland/usscothandicaps.html

I'd agree with a lot of your post above, especially about bandits being bandits no matter what system is used and also the point about the hassle involved in getting the number of rounds in to meaningfully increase your handicap.

gypsy79 · 16-07-2019 1:42pm

There will be a memory as part. The piece I read said that previous ability will functioned in

I would say a 5 shot movement will be very rare even if someone is trying to fiddle

Golfshot calculates my handicap under all the systems. US is usually 1-2 lower. At the minute I am 0.5 higher. But I had been playing dreadful bar a 38 points at the weekend

doublecross · 16-07-2019 2:26pm

I did the calculation using the golfshot app and I'd get an extra 3 shots using the USGA system.

gypsy79 · 16-07-2019 2:35pm

Presumably you haven’t had many rounds near 36 lately??

doublecross · 16-07-2019 2:38pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

Presumably you haven’t had many rounds near 36 lately??

Last two rounds where 36, 41. Other rounds are mostly in the low 30s

gypsy79 · 16-07-2019 3:06pm

doublecross wrote: »

Last two rounds where 36, 41. Other rounds are mostly in the low 30s

I just did the actual calc in excel and I am 2.9 higher

But I have been playing pants

My best 5 scores have been 38, 35, 34, 33, 31

gypsy79 · 16-07-2019 3:09pm

There is an easy enough way to guesstimate your us handicap

1 Take your last 20 records from golfnet.
2 Take the 10 lowest in GD column allowing for CSS
3 Add them together
4 Divide by 10 and multiply by 0.96

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 11:25am

Enter name here wrote: »

Also forgot to mention, in a comp event a maximum of 3 shots over par is the highest recorded,

that's not true

its a net double bogey

Rikand · 17-07-2019 12:16pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

There is an easy enough way to guesstimate your us handicap

1 Take your last 20 records from golfnet.
2 Take the 10 lowest in GD column allowing for CSS
3 Add them together
4 Divide by 10 and multiply by 0.96

Instead of being 6.0 I'd be 7.7.

But that's a few rounds from late 2017, early 2018 keeping me there. When they are gone, I'll be near 9 or 10

Actually probably is much fairer for my genuine level as someone who is playing genuinely

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 1:07pm

Seve OB wrote: »

that's not true

its a net double bogey

Sorry should have said 3 shots over net par.

Russman · 17-07-2019 2:02pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

There is an easy enough way to guesstimate your us handicap

1 Take your last 20 records from golfnet.
2 Take the 10 lowest in GD column allowing for CSS
3 Add them together
4 Divide by 10 and multiply by 0.96

Wonder how the new system will deal with players who leave early ? Like, say, you're a million over par, its p1ssing rain and the 15th tee is beside the clubhouse - its all too easy (and understandable) to bail out at that point....
Your stableford GD would be crazy if those part rounds are included, but hardly realistic.

Just checked, I'd be 7.1 under USGA & 6.8 under the new WHS, while currently 8.0

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 2:06pm

Russman wrote: »

Wonder how the new system will deal with players who leave early ? Like, say, you're a million over par, its p1ssing rain and the 15th tee is beside the clubhouse - its all too easy (and understandable) to bail out at that point....
Your stableford GD would be crazy if those part rounds are included, but hardly realistic.

Just checked, I'd be 7.1 under USGA & 6.8 under the new WHS, while currently 8.0

probably not to different as to how it is currently done. net double bogey for those holes... of course opens up the whole bandit thing again but if you were a million over already its not going to make much difference

but it would make more difference i guess than it currently does as we get a max of .1 back

but then again it probably wont make any difference as it is likely the score will never be a counting one

jeez, hard to know isn't it!!!

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 2:15pm

of course what you guys are forgetting with working out your handicaps per USGA is that this will not actually be your handicap, it will be your handicap index and your playing handicap will then vary from that from course to course!!!!

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 2:26pm

but for arguments sake i did mine anyway

i'm currently 12.7 after a shocking run off 10 .1's in a row, would have been 11 if another was allowed

this is a bad run and not reflective of my ability, actually played well & hit 10 GIR (inc a putt for eagle) in reg last round but putter was shocking and 8 3putts

USGA would have me at 13.6

however there were a few good rounds early on. so if my next 4 rounds are the same as my last 4 rounds, i would jump to 16. i know we all like to blow our own trumpet, but a 16 handicap is way to high for me, i'm so much better than that.

Russman · 17-07-2019 2:27pm

Seve OB wrote: »

probably not to different as to how it is currently done. net double bogey for those holes... of course opens up the whole bandit thing again but if you were a million over already its not going to make much difference

but it would make more difference i guess than it currently does as we get a max of .1 back

but then again it probably wont make any difference as it is likely the score will never be a counting one

jeez, hard to know isn't it!!!

That's it exactly, its all such a grey area right now. Interesting to see how it all plays out.

Russman · 17-07-2019 2:30pm

Seve OB wrote: »

but for arguments sake i did mine anyway

i'm currently 12.7 after a shocking run off 10 .1's in a row, would have been 11 if another was allowed this is a bad run and not reflective of my ability, actually played well & hit 10 GIR (inc a putt for eagle) in reg last round but putter was shocking and 8 3putts

USGA would have me at 13.6

however there were a few good rounds early on. so if my next 4 rounds are the same as my last 4 rounds, i would jump to 16. i know we all like to blow our own trumpet, but a 16 handicap is way to high for me, i'm so much better than that.

I think that exact scenario is supposed to be one of the good points of the new system. Insofar as its a lot more fluid and arguably reflective of your more recent form, as opposed to (depending on how many games you play) a good score and big cut from last season still impacting your current level.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 2:59pm

Russman wrote: »

I think that exact scenario is supposed to be one of the good points of the new system. Insofar as its a lot more fluid and arguably reflective of your more recent form, as opposed to (depending on how many games you play) a good score and big cut from last season still impacting your current level.

yea but i have no big cuts in there, actually just the one cut of .6

i have been down as low as 10.8 2, maybe 3 years ago. i probably haven't been any higher than 14 in the last 13 years and to be honest anytime i went that far it wasn't long before i was back down.

probably have played off 13 most of the time and then 12.

to give me 16 would be ridiculous.

to make matters worse, looking at it, i could very easily hit 19 over my next 6 rounds or so. i could do that in 2 weeks if I wanted to build my handicap...... hell, I could do it even if I was trying to get cut

thankfully it seems there will be a 5 shot limit, however i still feel that is way to high.

i like the buffer zone, and would have liked them to have tried to build it into the system. how m,any times have you had a crap round going, but rather than give up, now you have a new competition just against yourself and try get into that buffer?

now with no buffer to aim for, much easier to just give up

martinkop · 17-07-2019 3:12pm

Seve OB wrote: »

i like the buffer zone, and would have liked them to have tried to build it into the system. how m,any times have you had a crap round going, but rather than give up, now you have a new competition just against yourself and try get into that buffer?

now with no buffer to aim for, much easier to just give up

You can use your highest counting score of the 8 from 20 to be your new buffer target when the round is going pear shaped

GreeBo · 17-07-2019 7:21pm

Russman wrote: »

I don't think it'll be the end of competitive golf, we'll just have to view it completely differently.
Its not going to be like now, where if you shoot a good score you'll know you're losing 0.8 or whatever, it'll take a bit of working out. Ok, you'll possibly know the worst round out of your 8 best is X, and if you beat that it'll reduce your handicap. Then again, if playing for handicap it doesn't really matter what anyone else is shooting.
I suspect there'll be some local variations though with regard to the max increase, similar to the ESR being mandatory in Ireland but not in the UK.

But then there seems to be many variables with it too, I dunno, I'm not convinced its any better than CSS. The concept of adjusted gross score just doesn't sit well with me tbh. Why does a score need to be adjusted ? You took the amount of shots you took. I mean, I played (very badly) in the Junior Cup a few weeks ago, had a nightmare hole on the back nine where 3 balls into a hazard led to an 11 - that's what went down on my card, so why would my score need adjusting ? I just don't get it.

The congu system has adjusted gross scores today though!?

mjsc1970 · 17-07-2019 9:09pm

I'd forgotten all about this.

I've been pretty much the same handicap now plus or minus 1 give or take for over 30 years. I don't fancy the wild fluctuations ahead.

I like the idea of you can't get more than 1.0 back in a golfing year. I think that's fair and all works out in the end and it puts the brakes on the handicap builders.

I think the current system works well in Ireland and UK. I don't see why it should be changed.

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 9:32pm

mjsc1970 wrote: »

I'd forgotten all about this.

I've been pretty much the same handicap now plus or minus 1 give or take for over 30 years. I don't fancy the wild fluctuations ahead.

I like the idea of you can't get more than 1.0 back in a golfing year. I think that's fair and all works out in the end and it puts the brakes on the handicap builders.

I think the current system works well in Ireland and UK. I don't see why it should be changed.

That's the problem the system doesn't work well, it severely penalises high handicappers for 1 good game of golf sometimes taking 3 years for that golfer to return to any form of competitive golf. How is that a fair system and inclusive for all? And if the system worked so well the world would be adopting the Irish system instead of vice versa.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 9:46pm

will you go away with your 3 years to get back to competitive golf after one good game, thats twice you've brought that up and its just silly talk.

so a 17 handicapper with one good game, great game, lets say 43 points, 7 better than CSS, a 2.1 shot cut.
first of all i don't agree that he needs to get any shots back, he had a bumper round and was rewarded, nice one.
if he really can't compete at his new handicap with a mere 2 shot difference, he probably wasn't regularly competing off 17 anyway, we all know handicaps are meant to level the field to an extent and you should not be competing to win regularly off your handicap and if you are well then it is to high in the first place.

but he can get one full shot back in his next 10 games and another full shot in the first 10 games next year, so not long at all before he is back up to his 17

now lets go extreme, a 22 handicapper who shoots 46 points, a full 4 shot cut. to be honest he deserves to be cut and that be the end of that.

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 10:04pm

Seve OB wrote: »

will you go away with your 3 years to get back to competitive golf after one good game, thats twice you've brought that up and its just silly talk.

so a 17 handicapper with one good game, great game, lets say 43 points, 7 better than CSS, a 2.1 shot cut.
first of all i don't agree that he needs to get any shots back, he had a bumper round and was rewarded, nice one.
if he really can't compete at his new handicap with a mere 2 shot difference, he probably wasn't regularly competing off 17 anyway, we all know handicaps are meant to level the field to an extent and you should not be competing to win regularly off your handicap and if you are well then it is to high in the first place.

but he can get one full shot back in his next 10 games and another full shot in the first 10 games next year, so not long at all before he is back up to his 17

now lets go extreme, a 22 handicapper who shoots 46 points, a full 4 shot cut. to be honest he deserves to be cut and that be the end of that.

Ok lets say the 60 yr old playing off 27, makes a few great putts and has and unbelievable game and shoots 42 points the css for the day is 35. Loses 3 shots off his/her handicap and then doesn't break 33 points again for who knows how long. Takes him/her 3 years at 1 shot per 12 months.

Now the silly talk is low handicappers wanting to win everything and complaining about mid to high handicappers. Well that's a grand idea drive all those members away from the game because you cant win everything. This is why is are divisions. Are you prepared to pay the extra membership and green fees when your club only has 40 or so active members playing?
Personally I like the challenge of trying to beat high handicappers gives me a challenge to go out each day and shoot low.

Seve OB · 17-07-2019 10:22pm

nobody should expect to be regularly breaking 33 points off any handicap. thats the principle of the system.

if someone ends up on a handicap that is to low for them such as a 60+ year old guy, well then they can have it reviewed. decent clubs will do it without asking. my dad has been given plenty of shots back over the years upon review.

not all clubs have divisions every week, my club doesn't.

Enter name here · 17-07-2019 10:30pm

Seve OB wrote: »

nobody should expect to be regularly breaking 33 points off any handicap. thats the principle of the system.

if someone ends up on a handicap that is to low for them such as a 60+ year old guy, well then they can have it reviewed. decent clubs will do it without asking. my dad has been given plenty of shots back over the years upon review.

not all clubs have divisions every week, my club doesn't.

Obviously no convincing you, having played under both systems for a number of years. The new system is a much fairer system and more indicative of how you are currently playing. It makes it fairer for all levels of golf.
And for players to actually gain 5 shots back takes so many bad games and so long to accomplish it can be hardly worth it.
The best thing from my point of view is the slope rating differential from course to course which will take into consideration each course based on that. It will make inter club playing and competitions more competitive.

New Worldwide Handicap System

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