The NPHET leakgate

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 10:25am

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Then why name this thread - The NPHET Leakgate?

Could you come up with a better discription? If so, please start a Thread accordingly.

We will clearly disagree but if you have an alternative discription as to what has occurred, please enlighten us. I've explained the facts as they've been reported and confirmed as of now, if the facts change, I'll eat humble pie.

Chips Lovell · 08-10-2020 10:28am

Varadkar never denied they were informed on Sunday night. The letter is public in fact.

VinLieger · 08-10-2020 10:33am

Dempo1 wrote: »

He openly admitted twice on Wed he was angry, very angry actually.

The lie is him clearly justifying his outburst on false information, namely...

Government were informed on Sunday night

Before or after the leak, we dont know that yet and like it or not its significant.

Also the idea as you previously posted that the Government could just issue a brief statement on the Level 5 issue on Sunday night is absurd after the nation had been told 3 days prior there wasn't even enough evidence to move to a nationwide level 3 status. It would need careful planning and prep so it could be received in the best way as possible and people wouldnt panic which is what happened thanks to the leak.

Dempo1 wrote: »

Tony Holohan did not go on a solo run

If NPHET leaked it its very possible he did

Dempo1 wrote: »

NPHET did consider all the facts

Do NPHET have access to all the economic data and numbers the dept of finance does?

Dempo1 wrote: »

NPHET did as it turns out put quite alot of thought into their decision.

Its still governments job to weigh everything

Dempo1 wrote: »

I'm not bothered by the leak or indeed the decision but am at what transpired afterwards, namely government claiming they knew nothing, another whopper.

But some people are bothered by the leak and it very much reads as your choosing to not be bothered by it so you can grind your axe against the FF/FG government over whatever chip you have on your shoulder.

Again i say you are jumping to an awful lot of conclusions to support what is now a very clear bias.

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 10:35am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Varadkar never denied they were informed on Sunday night. The letter is public in fact.

Are you being serious, really? The entire narati from government from Sunday afternoon, right up to Wednesday was they were not informed, no communication, leaks etc, seriously, he then goes on national TV and claims NPHET put no thought into their decisions.

I personally think level 3 was the sensible decision, the point I'm making is why did government portray a false narrative that NPHET were essentially a loose cannon and then make it worse by being less than forthcoming about what actually happened. The truth makes Leo's behaviour on Monday evening all the more disgraceful.

Chips Lovell · 08-10-2020 10:42am

Dempo1 wrote: »

Are you being serious, really? The entire narati from government from Sunday afternoon, right up to Wednesday was they were not informed, no communication, leaks etc, seriously, he then goes on national TV and claims NPHET put no thought into their decisions.

I'm genuinely struggling to understand what you're alleging or whether you've just misunderstood the chain of events. Do you accept that they got the letter on Sunday night?

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 10:42am

VinLieger wrote: »

Before or after the leak, we dont know that yet and like it or not its significant.

Also the idea as you previously posted that the Government could just issue a brief statement on the Level 5 issue on Sunday night is absurd after the nation had been told 3 days prior there wasn't even enough evidence to move to a nationwide level 3 status. It would need careful planning and prep so it could be received in the best way as possible and people wouldnt panic which is what happened thanks to the leak.

If NPHET leaked it its very possible he did

Do NPHET have access to all the economic data and numbers the dept of finance does?

Its still governments job to weigh everything

But some people are bothered by the leak and it very much reads as your choosing to not be bothered by it so you can grind your axe against the FF/FG government over whatever chip you have on your shoulder.

Again i say you are jumping to an awful lot of conclusions to support what is now a very clear bias.

Well see later but I should note, I was one of those people who actually emailed Leo to congratulate his initial handling of the crisis, I even have a response which wouldn't be appropriate to share, I continued that support but something changed when the new government formed and I'll freely admit I've become very dissapointed as what I rightly or wrongly see as Leo and in particular FG TD'S undermining the very government they set up and are part of.

Prior to this crisis, I had zero interest in politics and have absolutely no affiliation to any political party and continue not to have any such affiliations.

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 10:47am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I'm genuinely struggling to understand what you're alleging or whether you've just misunderstood the chain of events. Do you accept that they got the letter on Sunday night?

What do you think happened after Minister Donnelly spoke to Holohan after the meeting?? I'd doubt they discussed the latest story line of fair City. We know they spoke, we know the Taoiseach and party leaders were then informed so I think it's a safe bet government knew what was being recommended on Sunday evening. It's also curious the leak occurred on Sunday evening. I don't think a degree in quantum physics is required to work out what happened.

Chips Lovell · 08-10-2020 10:54am

Dempo1 wrote: »

What do you think happened after Minister Donnelly spoke to Holohan after the meeting?? I'd doubt they discussed the latest story line of fair City. We know they spoke, we know the Taoiseach and party leaders were then informed so I think it's a safe bet government knew what was being recommended on Sunday evening. It's also curious the leak occurred on Sunday evening. I don't think a degree in quantum physics is required to work out what happened.

In that case I think you've misunderstood things. The letter was sent on Sunday evening. It's dated Sunday. Varadkar said they got it on Sunday.

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 11:02am

Chips Lovell wrote: »

In that case I think you've misunderstood things. The letter was sent on Sunday evening. It's dated Sunday. Varadkar said they got it on Sunday.

Does it really matter about when letter sent, that's not the issue, the issue remains why did government spend three days denying they had any knowledge of the level 5 recommendations. Again, it's clearly admitted Holohan communicated NPHET concerns twice on Sunday and that was relayed to the three leaders, it's simply absurd for Leo to claim he and government were in the Dark, which is the narrative spun for three days.

08-10-2020 11:05am

Dempo1 wrote: »

Does it really matter about when letter sent, that's not the issue, the issue remains why did government spend three days denying they had any knowledge of the level 5 recommendations. Again, it's clearly admitted Holohan communicated NPHET concerns twice on Sunday and that was relayed to the three leaders, it's simply absurd for Leo to claim he and government were in the Dark, which is the narrative spun for three days.

All this hooha is just politics at play. Alan Kelly and Róisín Shorthall seem to be leading the charge of the opposition.

We’re living through fast moving, unprecedented times. Difficult decisions have to be made which balances the needs of those affected by Covid and those who aren’t.

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 11:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

All this hooha is just politics at play. Alan Kelly and Róisín Shorthall seem to be leading the charge of the opposition.

We’re living through fast moving, unprecedented times. Difficult decisions have to be made which balances the needs of those affected by Covid and those who aren’t.

I agree generally and yes a balance required, I just don't understand why Government constantly muddy the waters, people just want honesty and consistency, its just unfortunate some in government resort to unpleasant tactics in persuit of their own agenda's.

08-10-2020 11:19am

Dempo1 wrote: »

I agree generally and yes a balance required, I just don't understand why Government constantly muddy the waters, people just want honesty and consistency, its just unfortunate some in government resort to unpleasant tactics in persuit of their own agenda's.

You mean Alan Kelly and Róisín Shorthall trying to raise their own profiles? All sensible people can see beyond their posturing and understanding that we’re in a fast moving, very changeable situation, where new directives are being issued, seemingly every day!
It’s down to each and every one of us to do the right thing for ourselves, our families and work colleagues. Unfortunately not everyone is civic minded. Therein lies the problem, but there’s no legislating for stupidity.
Stay safe.

vintagecosmos · 08-10-2020 11:44am

Dempo1 wrote: »

Absolutely not, if you listen back to the press conference the opposite is true. The leak was not from NPHET and Holohan went as far as to say the leaker did not share NPHET "s objectives.

The narrative seems to be the leak is the actual problem, it is not, it is the fact Government knew about the level 5 recommendations on Sunday and spent all day Monday denying it, topped of by Leo's disgraceful behaviour on Monday night.

NPHET has 32 members. And a further 220 people in the various subgroups. I would say there is a very good probability one of those could be the leak...

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 11:46am

vintagecosmos wrote: »

NPHET has 32 members. And a further 220 people in the various subgroups. I would say there is a very good probability one of those could be the leak...

I thought it was 40 but moving on from the leak, the issue is Governments response over the next three days, blind sided was how it was described.

Infini · 08-10-2020 11:50am

Honestly I don't think the leak came from NPHET myself, they're a medical advisory group and they're advising level 5 based on their own data. If anything the leak likely came from the goverment or one of them inside it because they got vested interest's and don't want to close the country down again.

I honestly think the whole thing is a joke, this isn't the time to be playing politics with such a damn virus running round the place, if a double whammy of covid and the flu hit's and collapses the health system entirely were all up shít creek without a paddle, I mean lets be honest 25% of cases are healthcare workers if im not mistaken, that amount of nurses and doctors put out of action with the virus alone already puts an already strained system under further pressure. People also think that the first wave is the bad one it's not, history has shown expecially with the spanish flu of a century ago that the 2nd wave was already deadlier because the 1st one weakens the defences. Death's are low but that's because at the moment the primary group is the young who are being hit with this, should it spread to older and more vunerable groups and it will if not controlled this is where everything ultimately goes down the toilet very quickly.

Honestly my own opinion is that if they have to put tight restrictions on, try and keep shops open if at all possible as these area's will be much lower risk not to mention they're already well sanitised as it is and the staff there are vigilant enough, if we're going to lockdown let's do it now so we can save Christmas at least, I honestly think it will be alot worse and we do nothing and then when we're force to lockdown with high numbers it ends up ruining christmas and I honestly think that would be alot worse than just doing it now and throwing Halloween under the bus instead.

What we need though is much more tougher enforcement and zero tolerance of the ratlicker brigade, people reporting them throwing threats etc outside leinster house, let's be clear these are not a group of peaceful protestor's, they're a hardcore group of pig ignorant thug's, with loyalist rejects and British headbangers mixed in, along with our own group of idiot's punch drunk on American retard wing conspiracy bullshít. They don't just need to be challenged their leaders need to be dragged to court, fined €10k for organising these event's in blatent breach of health regulations (no masks, social distancing at all, this would also seperate the problem from actual legitimate protests who have done this) and if necessary jail them for 2 years for public endangerment. You can't reason with stupidity only deal with them as much as we'd all love if people would be reasonable about it but we all know there's a certain section of society who not only refuse but agitate intentonally because they won't accept reality as it is.

vintagecosmos · 08-10-2020 12:01pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

I thought it was 40 but moving on from the leak, the issue is Governments response over the next three days, blind sided was how it was described.

You are probably right. Id say its grown since this article.

https://www.thejournal.ie/here-is-who-sits-on-the-national-public-health-emergency-team-and-what-they-do-5086703-Apr2020/

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 12:04pm

Leo looking very sheepish in the Dail right now

ancapailldorcha · 08-10-2020 12:16pm

Mod: No name calling please. Post and responses deleted.

Hermy · 08-10-2020 12:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

All this hooha is just politics at play.

And what is this hoo-ha supposed to achieve?

As far as I can tell all it's currently doing is distracting from the fact that NPHET believe we should be at level 5.

Chips Lovell · 08-10-2020 12:52pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

Does it really matter about when letter sent, that's not the issue, the issue remains why did government spend three days denying they had any knowledge of the level 5 recommendations.

It does matter when the letter was sent if you're saying they spent three days denying knowledge of it. If the letter was sent on Sunday and Varadkar acknowledged he got it on Sunday and responded on Monday, where are the three days? Indeed, where is the denial at all?

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 12:59pm

Chips Lovell wrote: »

It does matter when the letter was sent if you're saying they spent three days denying knowledge of it. If the letter was sent on Sunday and Varadkar acknowledged he got it on Sunday and responded on Monday, where are the three days? Indeed, where is the denial at all?

So assuming correctly they got the letter on sund, why the denial of the facts? Why the claims of being blind sided, why the need to go on TV and throw the messenger under a bus, this is what happened, unless your in denial.

Again, I'm questioning ligitmately, why the government gave a distinct impression they were not consulted when it's now admitted they were. If Leo was so agitated (and he clearly was), why not release a ststement and say everth under discussion, not decided, nothing agreed, most right minded people would accept that, instead of feeding unnecessary hysteria over three days and going on TV to make a fool of himself.

StupidLikeAFox · 08-10-2020 1:15pm

I think you have the wrong end of the stick here Dempo. Varadkar said the recommendation on Sunday to go to level 5 came out of the blue, which it did. There was no indication prior to Sunday that it was on the table or remotely heading in that direction.

VinLieger · 08-10-2020 1:18pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

So assuming correctly they got the letter on sund, why the denial of the facts? Why the claims of being blind sided, why the need to go on TV and throw the messenger under a bus, this is what happened, unless your in denial.

Because it matters if the leak happened before they were informed then they absolutely were blindsided.

And if the leak did come from NPHET then they were absolutely right to give out about it as its NPHET trying to force their hand in a very underhanded way.

You seem to be the one in denial tbh. Notice nearly everyone on here is taking about possibilities of what happened but you are spouting all your arguments as fact when as of yet all we know is NPHET decided on a recommendation, they presented it to the government via letter sunday evening and there was a leak. Yet we dont have an exact timeline of those 3 events and who was responsible for the leak both of which are vital to understanding what exactly happened and knowing who should take the brunt of the blame for the ensuing chaos.

Jinglejangle69 · 08-10-2020 1:33pm

It's been clarified they didn't know.

Dempo1 · 08-10-2020 1:36pm

VinLieger wrote: »

Because it matters if the leak happened before they were informed then they absolutely were blindsided.

And if the leak did come from NPHET then they were absolutely right to give out about it as its NPHET trying to force their hand in a very underhanded way.

You seem to be the one in denial tbh. Notice nearly everyone on here is taking about possibilities of what happened but you are spouting all your arguments as fact when as of yet all we know is NPHET decided on a recommendation, they presented it to the government via letter sunday evening and there was a leak. Yet we dont have an exact timeline of those 3 events and who was responsible for the leak both of which are vital to understanding what exactly happened and knowing who should take the brunt of the blame for the ensuing chaos.

OK so what was Leo actually agitated about? and why the pretence he was blindsided, NPHET sent the letter after speaking to Donnelly, he made contact with party leaders etc and yet despite it being clear NPHET fully communicated, shared their concerns, Leo felt blindsided up to and including Monday evening. Finally, why the personal attack on NPHET?

awec · 08-10-2020 1:37pm

My take on it is:

Thursday: NPHET tell government that the data doesn't support a move to a nationwide level 3.
Saturday / Sunday morning: NPHET / Holohan tell the government they are concerned about the numbers
Sunday afternoon / evening: NPHET send letter to government recommending level 5 lockdown nationwide.

Government are angry we've gone from not needing level 3 to needing level 5 in a matter of days, when they were likely expecting the "level 3 not required" decision to be reversed. NPHET's change in direction was as extreme as it can get, and the government appear to have been blindsided by it.

I do think there are very legitimate criticisms of NPHET and their role in the past week.

Jinglejangle69 · 08-10-2020 1:40pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

OK so what was Leo actually agitated about? and why the pretence he was blindsided, NPHET sent the letter after speaking to Donnelly, he made contact with party leaders etc and yet despite it being clear NPHET fully communicated, shared their concerns, Leo felt blindsided up to and including Monday evening. Finally, why the personal attack on NPHET?

Yet Leo just said they knew nothing about it.

Why are you talking in facts when you haven't a clue what went on yet.

VinLieger · 08-10-2020 1:44pm

Dempo1 wrote: »

OK so what was Leo actually agitated about? and why the pretence he was blindsided, NPHET sent the letter after speaking to Donnelly, he made contact with party leaders etc and yet despite it being clear NPHET fully communicated, shared their concerns, Leo felt blindsided up to and including Monday evening. Finally, why the personal attack on NPHET?

Okay lets go through this piece by piece because you deliberately seem incapable of putting yourself in their shoes.

On Thursday they were told nationwide level 3 wasn't needed. Prior to the Sunday meeting they were then told NPHET were concerned about numbers, that's it no levels discussed or anything as far as we know.

After the meeting 2 things happen but we don't know in which order, NPHET inform the government they advise nationwide level 5 and this recommendation is leaked to the media. The order to which these happened is key to deciding if the government are being disingenuous or not.

This recommendation by itself would absolutely blindside them but the leaking is ridiculous.

Are you incapable of understanding why they would feel blindsided after being told the vast majority of the country is fine at level 2 to very suddenly the whole country needs to be at 5 AND having that leaked? He seems to be under the impression as do most people that NPHET were the leakers so i think he is absolutely within his rights to slap them down to tell them not to do that anymore. Its not like we wouldnt have found out about the reccomendation but Government needed time to decide on whther to follow it and then communicate their reasoning to the public.

When in crisis you need to speak with one voice otherwise you get chaos like weve seen and like it or not the Government is the voice not NPHET.

Gooser14 · 08-10-2020 3:15pm

What's your evidence that NPHET are responsible for the leak to the media re the level 5 recommendation?

vintagecosmos · 08-10-2020 3:59pm

Gooser14 wrote: »

What's your evidence that NPHET are responsible for the leak to the media re the level 5 recommendation?

None. Law of probability. More members in NPHET and associated contacts etc.

tonycascarino · 11-10-2020 1:52am

I am of the opinion that NPHET/Government released this level 5 recommendation purposely in order to gauge the mood of the people of Ireland and get them mentally prepared in advance as to what lies ahead in the near future.

11-10-2020 9:39am

tonycascarino wrote: »

I am of the opinion that NPHET/Government released this level 5 recommendation purposely in order to gauge the mood of the people of Ireland and get them mentally prepared in advance as to what lies ahead in the near future.

It’ll make no difference. There’s no legislating for stupidity.

bcklschaps · 11-10-2020 11:28am

tonycascarino wrote: »

I am of the opinion that NPHET/Government released this level 5 recommendation purposely in order to gauge the mood of the people of Ireland and get them mentally prepared in advance as to what lies ahead in the near future.

Agree 100%

Government flew a little kite, Sunday night....to see what public reaction would be like to Level 5. (when they knew Level 5 was probably on the way eventually anyway).

They got their answer and decided to go for Level 3. But in doing soo had to discredit the NPHET advice.

They did this a little too well (Varadkar might very well have some personal 'baggage' with Holohan, and couldn't resist sticking the boot into him on the Claire Bryne show) and its backfired spectacularly with Varadkar & Donnelly now looking like complete chancers.

The NPHET leakgate

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