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The NPHET leakgate

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    #32
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Actually, here is the Irish Time



    So government *didn't* know of level 5 recommendation. So, perhaps someone can explain it to me, how could the government have leaked the level 5 recommendation?

    The leak was after the meeting.

    Tony rang Donnelly after the meeting as well.


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    #33
    JMNolan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    The leak was after the meeting.

    Tony rang Donnelly after the meeting as well.

    Ok, I see you are correct

    "After the Nphet meeting the minister was informed for the first time that Nphet had recommended a move to Level 5."

    Looks like it might have been young Donnelly or someone in government...


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    #34
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Ok, so Tony rang Donnelly after the meeting to tell him of level 5 recommendation? Where can I read about that?

    You can listen to the press briefing yesterday.

    They went through the day in minute detail.

    Tony rang in the morning. Tony explained his concerns. Tony went to nephet meeting. Nephet agreed level 5 recommendation. Tony rang Donnelly and told him about the recommendation. Tony went back to nephet to check that the letter written up was what was agreed. Tony signed letter and sent it to government and some civil service bodies.

    Letter ended up with the media who declared Nephet recommends level 5.


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    #35
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Shouldn't this be in the Conspiracy theory forum?


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    #36
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Actually, here is the Irish Time



    So government *didn't* know of level 5 recommendation. So, perhaps someone can explain it to me, how could the government have leaked the level 5 recommendation?

    Your assuming government didn't know about the level 5 recommendations, they did as has now been made abundantly clear. Stephen Donnelly was informed of the meetings findings after it ended and from there he made contact with Taoiseach, this on Sunday afternoon. Is it really credible to suggest Tony Holohan discussed the latest weather forecast after such an unprecedented Sunday meeting of NPHET.

    Ultimately its not about leaks, its about a Government who've clearly attempted to undermine NPHET and persisted with this lie all the way upto Monday evening, infact they've yet to admit anything, instead blaming alleged lack of communication which it now turns out, Actually happened.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #37
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Shouldn't this be in the Conspiracy theory forum?

    No conspiracy, just the facts of what has actually occurred. Don't take my word, look back at the press confer yesterday and perhaps check out newspaper reports this morning and indeed morning Ireland.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #38
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Few things to note that may inform discussion on this issue. NPHET's recommendations are not intended to be private. They're published straight away on the Department of Health's website. So the letter sent recommending Level 5 on Sunday was published on Monday.

    Any leaking that went on, whether by the government or members of NPHET, happened during the relatively short window between the letter being sent and the letter being published and was done in the knowledge that this information would be public very shortly anyway.


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    #39
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    I believe the communication failure might be between cabinet.

    Donnelly may be hearing from Holohan and failing to pass the message onto cabinet colleagues.


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    #40
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    No conspiracy, just the facts of what has actually occurred. Don't take my word, look back at the press confer yesterday and perhaps check out newspaper reports this morning and indeed morning Ireland.
    Letter sent, letter leaked, government blows a fuse, government rejects advice, government and NPHET kiss and make up! Apart from that I'm in the don't care column and the rest is borderline conspiracy.


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    #41
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Ultimately its not about leaks, its about a Government who've clearly attempted to undermine NPHET and persisted with this lie all the way upto Monday evening, infact they've yet to admit anything, instead blaming alleged lack of communication which it now turns out, Actually happened.

    You've obviously got an axe to grind with FF/FG government and your jumping to a lot of conclusions, maybe take a step back.

    It is 100% about the leak because that is what triggered everything after the fact.

    If it was from NPHET government do still need to answer why they lied about not knowing about level 5 on Monday however it is also still possible as the leak was sunday evening the leak may have happened prior to government being made aware of the recommendation which is why we need a definitive timeline and you need to stop jumping to conclusions. Mainly in this scenario NPHET shouldn't be trying to influence Government in such underhanded ways.

    If it was from Government they lied twice and are responsible for trying to undermine public confidence in NPHET which is grossly irresponsible at this moment in time and absolutely need to be held to account.


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    #42
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,220 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Agreed, in fact any comment I see is that NPHET "expressed their concerns". No mentioned or suggestion by anyone that over the weekend NPHET suggested to the government to move to level 5 restrictions. That is the crux of the issue, who leaked the level 5?

    All the media reported it as a NPHET source.


    Never been much doubt it was them. You'd assume the top man


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    #43
    laserlad2010
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭laserlad2010


    Important to remember from where Donnelly's special advisors have been hired. Colette Sexton and Susan Mitchell both successful journalists prior to switching.


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    #44
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Letter sent, letter leaked, government blows a fuse, government rejects advice, government and NPHET kiss and make up! Apart from that I'm in the don't care column and the rest is borderline conspiracy.

    Your not getting the point of this Thread, forget about the leak for a second. This is about what occurred afterwards. In simple terms, Government claiming they knew nothing about the level 5 advice, worse still they proceeded to spin a disgrace narrative for almost 2 days that they had no communication from NPHET or Tony Holohan. No matter what we might think of leaks etc, the governments stance is and has been proven to be false. More appalling is the fact Leo then and knowing the facts, goes on national TV essentially throwing NPHET and more pointidly The CMO under a bus.

    OK, let's assume government were upset, all they had to do was issue a brief statement on the recommendation on Sunday evening, explain to the nation they are considering the Advice, come out on Monday and agree a plan and get on with it. Instead they spin and spin and spin and I believe lied to the country. I can forgive confusion but this was a blatant attempt to undermine Tony Holohan , plain and simple and in a most calculated and devious way.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #45
    Heart Break Kid
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭Heart Break Kid


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Your not getting the point of this Thread,

    People get the point, people don't care as much as you. Not sure if we can all agree to leave Dempo here to his own ramblings.


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    #46
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    If NPHET's recommendations are going to be published (and, for transparency's sake I think it's right that they are) and if the government isn't going to follow them, then it is incumbent on them to give a fairly robust reasoning for not doing so. That's not throwing anyone under the bus.


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    #47
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Heart Break Kid wrote: »
    People get the point, people don't care as much as you. Not sure if we can all agree to leave Dempo here to his own ramblings.

    Your welcome not to contribute to this Thread, that's your choice but do take time to listen to claire Byrne shortly, it might enlighten you. This is not a ramble, as explained I've no political axe to grind but I do expect answers to what has occurred.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #48
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    If NPHET's recommendations are going to be published (and, for transparency's sake I think it's right that they are) and if the government isn't going to follow them, then it is incumbent on them to give a fairly robust reasoning for not doing so. That's not throwing anyone under the bus.

    Just curious did you see Leo's performance on the Claire Byrne show, Monday night? Not just throwing someone under the bus, but reversing and doing it again slowly. His tantrum was based on lies essentially.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #49
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Why are you describing it as a tantrum? I don't think he raised his voice once. What were lies?


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    #50
    Colonel Claptrap
    Registered Users Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Colonel Claptrap


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Ultimately its not about leaks, its about a Government who've clearly attempted to undermine NPHET and persisted with this lie all the way upto Monday evening, infact they've yet to admit anything, instead blaming alleged lack of communication which it now turns out, Actually happened.
    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Your not getting the point of this Thread, forget about the leak for a second. This is about what occurred afterwards.

    Then why name this thread - The NPHET Leakgate?


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    #51
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    Why are you describing it as a tantrum? I don't think he raised his voice once. What were lies?

    He openly admitted twice on Wed he was angry, very angry actually.

    The lie is him clearly justifying his outburst on false information, namely...

    Government were informed on Sunday night

    Tony Holohan did not go on a solo run

    NPHET did consider all the facts

    NPHET did as it turns out put quite alot of thought into their decision.

    I'm not bothered by the leak or indeed the decision but am at what transpired afterwards, namely government claiming they knew nothing, another whopper.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #52
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Colonel Claptrap wrote: »
    Then why name this thread - The NPHET Leakgate?

    Could you come up with a better discription? If so, please start a Thread accordingly.

    We will clearly disagree but if you have an alternative discription as to what has occurred, please enlighten us. I've explained the facts as they've been reported and confirmed as of now, if the facts change, I'll eat humble pie.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #53
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Varadkar never denied they were informed on Sunday night. The letter is public in fact.


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    #54
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,653 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    He openly admitted twice on Wed he was angry, very angry actually.

    The lie is him clearly justifying his outburst on false information, namely...

    Government were informed on Sunday night

    Before or after the leak, we dont know that yet and like it or not its significant.

    Also the idea as you previously posted that the Government could just issue a brief statement on the Level 5 issue on Sunday night is absurd after the nation had been told 3 days prior there wasn't even enough evidence to move to a nationwide level 3 status. It would need careful planning and prep so it could be received in the best way as possible and people wouldnt panic which is what happened thanks to the leak.

    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Tony Holohan did not go on a solo run

    If NPHET leaked it its very possible he did
    Dempo1 wrote: »
    NPHET did consider all the facts

    Do NPHET have access to all the economic data and numbers the dept of finance does?

    Dempo1 wrote: »
    NPHET did as it turns out put quite alot of thought into their decision.

    Its still governments job to weigh everything
    Dempo1 wrote: »
    I'm not bothered by the leak or indeed the decision but am at what transpired afterwards, namely government claiming they knew nothing, another whopper.

    But some people are bothered by the leak and it very much reads as your choosing to not be bothered by it so you can grind your axe against the FF/FG government over whatever chip you have on your shoulder.

    Again i say you are jumping to an awful lot of conclusions to support what is now a very clear bias.


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    #55
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    Varadkar never denied they were informed on Sunday night. The letter is public in fact.

    Are you being serious, really? The entire narati from government from Sunday afternoon, right up to Wednesday was they were not informed, no communication, leaks etc, seriously, he then goes on national TV and claims NPHET put no thought into their decisions.

    I personally think level 3 was the sensible decision, the point I'm making is why did government portray a false narrative that NPHET were essentially a loose cannon and then make it worse by being less than forthcoming about what actually happened. The truth makes Leo's behaviour on Monday evening all the more disgraceful.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #56
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Are you being serious, really? The entire narati from government from Sunday afternoon, right up to Wednesday was they were not informed, no communication, leaks etc, seriously, he then goes on national TV and claims NPHET put no thought into their decisions.

    I'm genuinely struggling to understand what you're alleging or whether you've just misunderstood the chain of events. Do you accept that they got the letter on Sunday night?


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    #57
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    VinLieger wrote: »
    Before or after the leak, we dont know that yet and like it or not its significant.

    Also the idea as you previously posted that the Government could just issue a brief statement on the Level 5 issue on Sunday night is absurd after the nation had been told 3 days prior there wasn't even enough evidence to move to a nationwide level 3 status. It would need careful planning and prep so it could be received in the best way as possible and people wouldnt panic which is what happened thanks to the leak.




    If NPHET leaked it its very possible he did



    Do NPHET have access to all the economic data and numbers the dept of finance does?




    Its still governments job to weigh everything



    But some people are bothered by the leak and it very much reads as your choosing to not be bothered by it so you can grind your axe against the FF/FG government over whatever chip you have on your shoulder.

    Again i say you are jumping to an awful lot of conclusions to support what is now a very clear bias.

    Well see later but I should note, I was one of those people who actually emailed Leo to congratulate his initial handling of the crisis, I even have a response which wouldn't be appropriate to share, I continued that support but something changed when the new government formed and I'll freely admit I've become very dissapointed as what I rightly or wrongly see as Leo and in particular FG TD'S undermining the very government they set up and are part of.

    Prior to this crisis, I had zero interest in politics and have absolutely no affiliation to any political party and continue not to have any such affiliations.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #58
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    I'm genuinely struggling to understand what you're alleging or whether you've just misunderstood the chain of events. Do you accept that they got the letter on Sunday night?

    What do you think happened after Minister Donnelly spoke to Holohan after the meeting?? I'd doubt they discussed the latest story line of fair City. We know they spoke, we know the Taoiseach and party leaders were then informed so I think it's a safe bet government knew what was being recommended on Sunday evening. It's also curious the leak occurred on Sunday evening. I don't think a degree in quantum physics is required to work out what happened.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #59
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    What do you think happened after Minister Donnelly spoke to Holohan after the meeting?? I'd doubt they discussed the latest story line of fair City. We know they spoke, we know the Taoiseach and party leaders were then informed so I think it's a safe bet government knew what was being recommended on Sunday evening. It's also curious the leak occurred on Sunday evening. I don't think a degree in quantum physics is required to work out what happened.

    In that case I think you've misunderstood things. The letter was sent on Sunday evening. It's dated Sunday. Varadkar said they got it on Sunday.


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    #60
    Dempo1
    Registered Users Posts: 26,924 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    In that case I think you've misunderstood things. The letter was sent on Sunday evening. It's dated Sunday. Varadkar said they got it on Sunday.

    Does it really matter about when letter sent, that's not the issue, the issue remains why did government spend three days denying they had any knowledge of the level 5 recommendations. Again, it's clearly admitted Holohan communicated NPHET concerns twice on Sunday and that was relayed to the three leaders, it's simply absurd for Leo to claim he and government were in the Dark, which is the narrative spun for three days.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    Does it really matter about when letter sent, that's not the issue, the issue remains why did government spend three days denying they had any knowledge of the level 5 recommendations. Again, it's clearly admitted Holohan communicated NPHET concerns twice on Sunday and that was relayed to the three leaders, it's simply absurd for Leo to claim he and government were in the Dark, which is the narrative spun for three days.

    All this hooha is just politics at play. Alan Kelly and Róisín Shorthall seem to be leading the charge of the opposition.

    We’re living through fast moving, unprecedented times. Difficult decisions have to be made which balances the needs of those affected by Covid and those who aren’t.


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