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Intoxicated in charge of a vehicle

  • 24-01-2020 3:55pm
    #1
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭


    Does anyone know what the possible penalties are for being in drunk in charge of the vehicle? These are the facts of the case:
    • The person was three times over the limit
    • They were at a house party, were thrown out and were attempting to sleep it off in the car
    • Garda say on the charge sheet - not driving or attempting to drive

    The problem I see with is that they probably would have woken up in the morning still drunk, and attempted to drive home.


«134

Comments

  • #2
    Uncle Pierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,550 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    Drunk in charge is basically treated the very same as actual drink driving. There'll be a fine and a mandatory disqualification.

    I believe the actual test of whether or not a person was 'in charge' is whether or not the keys were in the ignition, but am not 100% sure of this. But I do know that being asleep at the time is not a defence.


  • #3
    randomrb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭randomrb


    Get a solicitor immediately, this is one of the most nuanced areas of law when it comes to road traffic offences and it carries basically the same punishments.

    The gist of the charge is that the individual was not driving at the time but the guard reasonably believed that the person was going to drive.


  • #4
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    It does say that the person wasn't driving and wasn't attempting to drive. Not sure it would make much of a difference though.


  • #5
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    There is no requirement to have keys in the ignition, here's a post where I detailed the principle authority on the charge:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103234878


  • #6
    randomrb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 351 ✭✭randomrb


    Lux23 wrote: »
    It does say that the person wasn't driving and wasn't attempting to drive. Not sure it would make much of a difference though.

    Thats the whole point of the charge, they weren't doing anything at the time but that it is reasonable to believe that they would. It stops someone who is drunk simply pulling the car over before they are seen by the guard and claiming that they have no proof he was driving


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  • #7
    DesperateDan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,587 ✭✭✭DesperateDan


    Wow. Wonder if it would make any difference if he was on the back seat or passenger seat instead of driver's seat?


  • #8
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    DesperateDan wrote: »
    Wow. Wonder if it would make any difference if he was on the back seat or passenger seat instead of driver's seat?

    There is no requirement to be in any particular seat.


  • #9
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    randomrb wrote: »
    Thats the whole point of the charge, they weren't doing anything at the time but that it is reasonable to believe that they would. It stops someone who is drunk simply pulling the car over before they are seen by the guard and claiming that they have no proof he was driving

    +1, there is a statutory presumption of intent to drive (and not even at that time, it can be in the future) which the accused must rebut.


  • #10
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    GM228 wrote: »
    There is no requirement to have keys in the ignition, here's a post where I detailed the principle authority on the charge:-

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103234878

    I don't understand. Would it be an offence to sleep in the car if you intended to drive the next day when sober.? Would that be the same circumstance as going to the boot of the car?

    And is intent assumed. If someone is asked by garda does he intend to drive the next day sober and he said no?


  • #11
    mickdw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,465 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I think its an outrageous law.
    What if the car wasn't able to be started.
    Do the gardai check to see that its a functioning car? If the person stood up in court and argued that there was no intent to drive as the car couldn't be started due to xyz failure, would that be a valid defence?


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  • #12
    fatherted1969
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,286 ✭✭✭fatherted1969


    Seems to be a strange law, if the person in the car hadn't the keys in ignition how can a guard assume anything ?


  • #13
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,038 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    mickdw wrote: »
    I think its an outrageous law.
    What if the car wasn't able to be started.
    Do the gardai check to see that its a functioning car? If the person stood up in court and argued that there was no intent to drive as the car couldn't be started due to xyz failure, would that be a valid defence?

    That's why you have to hire a solicitor. It's very easy to make a car not start and even easier to make it start later, it's why UI in charge is the offence not DUI.


  • #14
    Jurgen Klopp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭Jurgen Klopp


    Surely if it came in front of a judge the fact it's down as not driving or attempting to drive could go in your defence saying they were thrown out and sleeping it off in the car?


  • #15
    UrbanFox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 472 ✭✭UrbanFox


    I presume that the car was in a public place as per RTA ?

    Public place as per RTA 1994. S.49.

    “‘public place’ means—

    (a) any public road, and

    (b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

    LINK http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/7/section/49/enacted/en/html#sec49


  • #16
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    Mckenna Scrawny Female wrote: »
    I don't understand. Would it be an offence to sleep in the car if you intended to drive the next day when sober.? Would that be the same circumstance as going to the boot of the car?

    Yes it would be an offence to sleep in the car with intent to drive the next day, there is no time limit on the intention to drive aspect of the offence.


    Mckenna Scrawny Female wrote: »
    And is intent assumed. If someone is asked by garda does he intend to drive the next day sober and he said no?

    Intent carries a statutory presumption, but it can be rebutted, but it's difficult to do so.


  • #17
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    GM228 wrote: »
    There is no requirement to be in any particular seat.

    Or in car car.

    Was once advised by a Guard that regardless if you were in the car or not or in a public place or not if they suspected that you were going to drive and thought you had a few drinks you would be arrested.

    His suggested was not to be in the car, failing that give the keys to some one else or take the battery out.


  • #18
    GM228
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,922 ✭✭✭GM228


    godtabh wrote: »
    Or in car car.

    Was once advised by a Guard that regardless if you were in the car or not or in a public place or not if they suspected that you were going to drive and thought you had a few drinks you would be arrested.

    His suggested was not to be in the car, failing that give the keys to some one else or take the battery out.

    No you must be in the car, i.e in charge of it with an intent to drive, of course you are said to be in charge of a vehicle even if not in the vehicle, but it's a two part charge where in charge is linked to the intent to drive, as shown by the Supreme Court you must essentially be in the car, they gave an example of someone going to their car, retrieving something and then leaving not been covered by the offence for example because there is no intent to drive presumption created when you don't remain with the vehicle.


  • #19
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    It was close to the house where the party was, so yes. The person is refusing to get a solicitor, I think the judge will throw the book at them for being so arrogant.
    UrbanFox wrote: »
    I presume that the car was in a public place as per RTA ?

    Public place as per RTA 1994. S.49.

    “‘public place’ means—

    (a) any public road, and

    (b) any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;”;

    LINK http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/7/section/49/enacted/en/html#sec49


  • #20
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    GM228 wrote: »
    Yes it would be an offence to sleep in the car with intent to drive the next day, there is no time limit on the intention to drive aspect of the offence

    Intent carries a statutory presumption, but it can be rebutted, but it's difficult to do so..

    Thanks for clarifying. Can you give an example of what would rebut the presumption


  • #21
    Heres Johnny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    Can't see the keys in ignition being of any importance in this case, there is no requirement to put keys in the ignition in many modern cars.

    My own car the keys just have to be inside the vehicle for it to start. They are usually in my pocket.

    Talk


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  • #22
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    GM228 wrote: »
    Yes it would be an offence to sleep in the car with intent to drive the next day, there is no time limit on the intention to drive aspect of the offence.

    Just playing devil's advocate here.

    Are different types of vehicles treated differently under the law? For example, what if the vehicle was a camper van or RV? It's hardly illegal to sleep in the back of one of those if you have a few drinks.


  • #23
    Pronto63
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 363 ✭✭Pronto63


    Mckenna Scrawny Female wrote: »
    I don't understand. Would it be an offence to sleep in the car if you intended to drive the next day when sober.? Would that be the same circumstance as going to the boot of the car?

    And is intent assumed. If someone is asked by garda does he intend to drive the next day sober and he said no?

    He was 3 times over the limit. Unlikely to be sober in the morning.


  • #24
    Vivienne23
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭Vivienne23


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Just playing devil's advocate here.

    Are different types of vehicles treated differently under the law? For example, what if the vehicle was a camper van or RV? It's hardly illegal to sleep in the back of one of those if you have a few drinks.


    Also interested to hear thoughts on this , own a motorhome and never dreamt of driving after a few , maybe having pyjamas on might convince them !

    This law is too vague you would think for punishment , if he was just sleeping in the car they should have left him alone but kept an eye to make sure he didn’t move it , if he did , then do him for the DUI and take his license !


  • #25
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Vivienne23 wrote: »
    Also interested to hear thoughts on this , own a motorhome and never dreamt of driving after a few , maybe having pyjamas on might convince them !

    This law is too vague you would think for punishment , if he was just sleeping in the car they should have left him alone but kept an eye to make sure he didn’t move it , if he did , then do him for the DUI and take his license !

    Don't know about here, but the UK have special exemptions for motor caravans, and they're legally defined as accommodation.

    So you can drive faster in a van conversion than a van and you can smoke inside one if it's stationary. I presume it's much easier to argue against drink driving if youre parked up in a camper, but you may still need to argue.


  • #26
    80j2lc5y7u6qs9
    Closed Accounts Posts: 957 ✭✭✭80j2lc5y7u6qs9


    GM228 wrote: »
    No you must be in the car, i.e in charge of it with an intent to drive, of course you are said to be in charge of a vehicle even if not in the vehicle, but it's a two part charge where in charge is linked to the intent to drive, as shown by the Supreme Court you must essentially be in the car, they gave an example of someone going to their car, retrieving something and then leaving not been covered by the offence for example because there is no intent to drive presumption created when you don't remain with the vehicle.
    Yes you can be in charge with out being in it. So isn't godtabh right

    Originally Posted by godtabh viewpost.gif
    Or in car car.

    Was once advised by a Guard that regardless if you were in the car or not or in a public place or not if they suspected that you were going to drive and thought you had a few drinks you would be arrested.

    His suggested was not to be in the car, failing that give the keys to some one else or take the battery out.


    The supreme court case said all circumstances would be taken into account like the exmple of the man who comes out to get something from the boot of his car which is on public road


  • #27
    The chan chan man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 824 ✭✭✭The chan chan man


    Maybe he was going to speed and run a red light on the way too. Why not do him for that as well...?


  • #28
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    Pronto63 wrote: »
    He was 3 times over the limit. Unlikely to be sober in the morning.

    Exactly. And 9 times out of 10, if you have alcohol on board you are guilty, that's just the way the guards and judge see it. Not just for driving but anything they arrest you for, if you werent 100% sober at the time, you were on a drunken rampage and did whatever it is.


  • #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This happened a neighbour of mine a few years back. He was out, on foot, for a few drinks in the afternoon. Walked home, discovered he'd forgotten his house keys, and his wife was out shopping. While he was waiting he got into his car, put the key in the ignition (his big mistake!) so he could turn on the radio, and went to sleep off the alcohol for an hour or two while waiting for his wife.

    Got woken up by a guard tapping on the window, and got charged and convicted. Argument being he was in charge of the vehicle while drunk, despite not driving it and it remaining parked in his private driveway at all times.


  • #30
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This happened a neighbour of mine a few years back. He was out, on foot, for a few drinks in the afternoon. Walked home, discovered he'd forgotten his house keys, and his wife was out shopping. While he was waiting he got into his car, put the key in the ignition (his big mistake!) so he could turn on the radio, and went to sleep off the alcohol for an hour or two while waiting for his wife.

    Got woken up by a guard tapping on the window, and got charged and convicted. Argument being he was in charge of the vehicle while drunk, despite not driving it and it remaining parked in his private driveway at all times.

    The offence can only be committed in a public place.
    A camper van would have to be in a private place to avoid conviction for being i charge while over the limit.


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  • #31
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    If I have a blow up bed and blankets in the back of a car and sleep in it can I be done. I actually do this a couple of times a year and the places are semi public.

    How can I avoid this - If myself and a friend go surfing can we give each other the keys of our cars/van are we in the clear.


  • #32
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,696 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    If I have a blow up bed and blankets in the back of a car and sleep in it can I be done. I actually do this a couple of times a year and the places are semi public.

    How can I avoid this - If myself and a friend go surfing can we give each other the keys of our cars/van are we in the clear.
    If you're each sleeping in your own vehicle, and you each have keys to the other vehicle but not to the one you're sleeping in, you're fine.


  • #33
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,818 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If you're each sleeping in your own vehicle, and you each have keys to the other vehicle but not to the one you're sleeping in, you're fine.
    Fine might be overstating it. If the two cars are parked beside each other, the practical difference between that situation and your keys being in the boot is fairly negligible. Both are a better defence than having your keys on you, but I'd be looking for a better solution

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  • #34
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,562 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Leave the actual keys with the bar staff in a friendly pub and get yourself a beach/swimming/surfing key (every manufacturer has a different name for this)?

    Basically its a plastic keyblade that can open the doors, sometimes the fuel cap but NOT start the engine. Except weirdly new VW ones can start the engine, so be careful there. Inert metal keys are also available for makes that don't have these; again they can't start the engine as they don't have a transponder in them

    If its an old or Japanese import vehicle with no immobiliser/transponder setup, you're out of luck - if this would even be a convincing argument to begin with!


  • #35
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    L1011 wrote: »
    Leave the actual keys with the bar staff in a friendly pub and get yourself a beach/swimming/surfing key (every manufacturer has a different name for this)?

    Basically its a plastic keyblade that can open the doors, sometimes the fuel cap but NOT start the engine. Except weirdly new VW ones can start the engine, so be careful there. Inert metal keys are also available for makes that don't have these; again they can't start the engine as they don't have a transponder in them

    If its an old or Japanese import vehicle with no immobiliser/transponder setup, you're out of luck - if this would even be a convincing argument to begin with!
    I have one of those keys already.
    So basically it's obvious enough; you have to make it well nigh impossible; fair enough.

    By the way I'm not looking for an excuse to give the Garda ;

    Itsh not da key , da key of thish car ,
    itsh the key of hish van


  • #36
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If you're each sleeping in your own vehicle, and you each have keys to the other vehicle but not to the one you're sleeping in, you're fine.

    not according to the Supreme Court. If you have an intention to drive your own vehicle when you get your keys back, then you are caught.


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  • #37
    srfc d16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭srfc d16


    Pronto63 wrote: »
    He was 3 times over the limit. Unlikely to be sober in the morning.


    This is slightly off topic but what constitutes 3 times the limit?
    If the limit is a glass of beer would someone having 2 or 3 pints be considered 3 times the limit? I freely admit I have never understood the x times the limit equation so I would appreciate a pointer here.
    I could be completely wrong on what 3 times the limit means but I would expect someone that had 3 pints of beer to be under the limit the following day.


  • #38
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,818 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    srfc d16 wrote: »
    This is slightly off topic but what constitutes 3 times the limit?
    If the limit is a glass of beer would someone having 2 or 3 pints be considered 3 times the limit? I freely admit I have never understood the x times the limit equation so I would appreciate a pointer here.
    I could be completely wrong on what 3 times the limit means but I would expect someone that had 3 pints of beer to be under the limit the following day.
    A glass is half a pint. Generally speaking, one standard drink is a glass of beer, a small glass of wine, or a single measure of spirits. An average body can process approximately one standard drink an hour. If you had three pints (6 standard drinks), 6 hours is a decent guess at how long it would take to be alcohol-free.

    However, it's just a guess. The legal limits don't take any of that into consideration:
    The legal limits for fully licenced drivers in Category B are:
    50 milligrammes (mg) of alcohol per 100 millilitres of blood
    67 milligrammes (mg) of alcohol per 100 millilitres of urine or
    22 microgrammes of alcohol per 100 millilitres of breath
    If you're over those, it's not a defence to say it was more than 6 hours since you had 6 standard drinks. The one hour guideline can be affected by lots of things, like weight, gender, personal metabolism, food consumption.

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  • #39
    srfc d16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 331 ✭✭srfc d16


    28064212 wrote: »
    A glass is half a pint. Generally speaking, one standard drink is a glass of beer, a small glass of wine, or a single measure of spirits. An average body can process approximately one standard drink an hour. If you had three pints (6 standard drinks), 6 hours is a decent guess at how long it would take to be alcohol-free.

    However, it's just a guess. The legal limits don't take any of that into consideration:If you're over those, it's not a defence to say it was more than 6 hours since you had 6 standard drinks. The one hour guideline can be affected by lots of things, like weight, gender, personal metabolism, food consumption.


    I understand that a glass is half a pint.
    I am just trying to understand what volume of alcohol equates to being 3 times over the limit. I appreciate that it will vary depending on the person. Again I could be incorrect but I believed that the limit is one glass (for the average person) what amount is 3 times the limit?


  • #40
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    srfc d16 wrote: »
    This is slightly off topic but what constitutes 3 times the limit?
    If the limit is a glass of beer would someone having 2 or 3 pints be considered 3 times the limit? I freely admit I have never understood the x times the limit equation so I would appreciate a pointer here.
    I could be completely wrong on what 3 times the limit means but I would expect someone that had 3 pints of beer to be under the limit the following day.

    The limit is measured by blood alcohol content or presumed blood alcohol content. It has nothing to of with quantities of any type of drink. Body weight is the biggest single factor in how much alcohol it would take to reach the limit . thereafter it is down to metabolism. There are tables used in America showing the progress of the blood alcohol ration over time as it can be a defence, in some states, to show that at the time of driving the alcohol level was below the limit and only rose above it after the arrest.


  • #41
    doiredoire
    Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭doiredoire


    What about sleeping in a camper van in a public place with a few drinks on you?


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  • #42
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,818 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    srfc d16 wrote: »
    I understand that a glass is half a pint.
    I am just trying to understand what volume of alcohol equates to being 3 times over the limit. I appreciate that it will vary depending on the person. Again I could be incorrect but I believed that the limit is one glass (for the average person) what amount is 3 times the limit?
    It's a direct correlation between alcohol consumed and blood-alcohol level, so if one glass put you at the limit, 3 glasses would put you at three times the limit, assuming no other variables (e.g. this would assume the 3 glasses were consumed in the same time-frame as the single glass)

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  • #43
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    doiredoire wrote: »
    What about sleeping camper vans in a public place with a few drinks on you?

    Drunk in charge. Prepare for court. it would be cheaper to stay in a hotel that pay for a drink driving defence.


  • #44
    AlfaZen
    Registered Users Posts: 423 ✭✭AlfaZen


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Drunk in charge. Prepare for court. it would be cheaper to stay in a hotel that pay for a drink driving defence.

    What about the case of a lorry driver who has just completed a delivery. He is away from home and his next pick-up is not until the following night. He goes for dinner and has a few beers/wine. He goes back to his cab for the night over the limit but not due to drive for next 15/20 hours?


  • #45
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Drunk in charge. Prepare for court. it would be cheaper to stay in a hotel that pay for a drink driving defence.

    I'm thinking that , might be more comfortable as well. But sleeping in the van is part of the crack.


  • #46
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    AlfaZen wrote: »
    What about the case of a lorry driver who has just completed a delivery. He is away from home and his next pick-up is not until the following night. He goes for dinner and has a few beers/wine. He goes back to his cab for the night over the limit but not due to drive for next 15/20 hours?

    He is committing the offence of being drunk in charge.


  • #47
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,295 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    marieholmfan wrote: »
    I'm thinking that , might be more comfortable as well. But sleeping in the van is part of the crack.

    Park the van in a private place.


  • #48
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Park the van in a private place.

    They aren't beside the beach and then I really would end up drink driving.

    The obvious alternative is to camp but that seems more obnoxious.

    Air BnB


  • #49
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    doiredoire wrote: »
    What about sleeping camper vans in a public place with a few drinks on you?

    As far as I'm aware, a camper or mobile caravan (not a van with a mattress in it, or a day van) is classed as mobile accommodation when it's parked.

    Open to contradiction though.


  • #50
    Queasy Tadpole
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Queasy Tadpole


    I've read this thread and it is mind blowing.

    Numerous times myself and the wife have gone car camping all over the country. Drunk as skunks sleeping away in the back of the car that's set up for car camping.

    You're telling me if the Gardai were to have walked by, seen us asleep in the back and woke me up I could have been done for drink driving?!

    Drunkenly asleep in a sleeping bag in the back of the car with zero intention of driving?


  • #51
    Padre_Pio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,352 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Queasy Tadpole wrote: »
    I've read this thread and it is mind blowing.

    Dems the rules unfortunately.

    Makes no sense to me.


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