The Middle Distance Thread

bagsy · 30-01-2014 1:00pm

HI all, great thread

I was just wondering how important others feel it is determining you r exact VO2 and LT via bloods for training purposes?

Any info would be great....

Cheers

ecoli · 30-01-2014 2:01pm

bagsy wrote: »

HI all, great thread

I was just wondering how important others feel it is determining you r exact VO2 and LT via bloods for training purposes?

Any info would be great....

Cheers

These tests can be a great tool if used correctly I have seen many coaches use them successfully with athletes of a wide variety of ability from Olympians to novice runners.

A word of caution though a singular test will not suffice to get proper benefit from and these tests must be performed between 4 and 5 times a year in order to amend training levels and monitor progress.

They are a handy tool but not essential for improvement (at any level)

ecoli · 30-01-2014 2:09pm

Letyourselfgo wrote: »

With regards to strength training, how often and when is the best day to do it, same day as a session?

Normally I stick to twice a week.

Regarding best days to do it I generally avoid the day before a session if possible (though get away with it to an extent at the moment as my sessions are of a more slow twitch fibre variety being in marathon training)
You also need to look to the dynamics of both the session and the strength training you are doing.

Speed development sessions and explosive resistance exercised (squats, cleans, deadlifts, lunges) are all aimed at developing fast twitch fibres. In order to gain these benefits reps should be low, weight high and you should be fresh going into the sessions.

If you are doing a more general strengthening resistance workout I would say aim to keep this on the day of a session to stick with the hard days hard ethos and allow yourself sufficient recovery in the days after. Again avoid speed development days but aim to do on session of +800m pace, with these style of strength workouts it is not uncommon to have these straight after your track work

Letyourselfgo · 30-01-2014 2:33pm

@ecoli
Thanks for that, just after the 200s the other night I just started thinking was it a good idea to have done the strength training earlier that day, was I getting the best out of the 200s.

Like this idea and it makes sense

ecoli wrote: »

If you are doing a more general strengthening resistance workout I would say aim to keep this on the day of a session to stick with the hard days hard ethos and allow yourself sufficient recovery in the days after. Again avoid speed development days but aim to do on session of +800m pace, with these style of strength workouts it is not uncommon to have these straight after your track work

RuinedEye · 04-02-2014 9:39am

Great thread! I am relatively new to MD as I am coming from the longer stuff 3000-10000m. I am currently nearing the end of phase 2 training which involves 50% areobic-50% anaerobic and I am feeling that I am getting quicker.

I am planning on hitting the track in the summer, would like to do both 800 and 1500, can anyone offer any advice on recovery after one for the other and which training should I be doing for both? I wont be doing both if the are very close in the schedule of events or if there are a few heats in one but I want to get set up to be able to do them if the chance arises. Thanks

Timmaay · 04-02-2014 11:07am

RuinedEye wrote: »

Great thread! I am relatively new to MD as I am coming from the longer stuff 3000-10000m. I am currently nearing the end of phase 2 training which involves 50% areobic-50% anaerobic and I am feeling that I am getting quicker.

I am planning on hitting the track in the summer, would like to do both 800 and 1500, can anyone offer any advice on recovery after one for the other and which training should I be doing for both? I wont be doing both if the are very close in the schedule of events or if there are a few heats in one but I want to get set up to be able to do them if the chance arises. Thanks

I've done both in the same meet before, you can get away with a 15, then an 8 say 3/4hrs later, but I fine it almost impossible to do anything following a 800.

RuinedEye · 06-02-2014 9:43am

I will keep that in mind, I may just concentrate on the 1500m.

Does anyone feel like their distance running suffers from concentrating on a shorter race? As I have seen some 1500m runners do very well in 5k-10k races including XC.

ecoli · 07-02-2014 6:11pm

While not strictly a training question always good to get peoples opinions on the qualities of a good middle distance runner?

(please don't just say speed (or if you have to try and elaborate a little bit on it)

)

Timmaay · 09-02-2014 9:40pm

ecoli wrote: »

Your what I would call the exception that proves the rule. I can't remember the last time you came into a season off a decent base for one reason or another all way through college but managed to race yourself into shape. Normally common sense would suggest you should forget it but knowing your history I would say go for it

2.05, left wayyy too much on the track however! I suppose the 1st 800 race of the season I was always going to be abit rusty, but the lack of sessions left me with no edge at at, and I really wasn't prepared for the mental toughness from 400-600m. Still can't complain too much about the time (esp as it was a 60sec 1st 400), I know what to do now, and it was great being back racing on the track, with all the nerves/adrenaline etc ha! And it was also my very 1st indoor race, veey deception how short the track is, its lap after lap, the race flies by!

pconn062 · 10-02-2014 12:27am

Timmaay wrote: »

2.05, left wayyy too much on the track however! I suppose the 1st 800 race of the season I was always going to be abit rusty, but the lack of sessions left me with no edge at at, and I really wasn't prepared for the mental toughness from 400-600m. Still can't complain too much about the time (esp as it was a 60sec 1st 400), I know what to do now, and it was great being back racing on the track, with all the nerves/adrenaline etc ha! And it was also my very 1st indoor race, veey deception how short the track is, its lap after lap, the race flies by!

Think I caught your race today, nicely done and a good way to kick off the season!

pconn062 · 10-02-2014 12:29am

One thing I was querying about and I thought it might be interesting to discuss here is quality work at race pace and how much to do. For example, if you are doing 1500m pace work I've read that you should limit the amount of quality work to 2-2.5k, which seems a little low to me (10x400m is a pretty standard mile workout and involves 4k of quality work). So how do you decide how much is enough for 800/1500/3000m work? Curious to hear peoples opinions.

oldrunner · 10-02-2014 2:00pm

Joe Gough ran an o60s 800m world record yesterday in the Leinster Indoors in 2:14.06 (with me as the accidental pacemaker).

dna_leri · 10-02-2014 2:10pm

oldrunner wrote: »

Joe Gough ran an o60s 800m world record yesterday in the Leinster Indoors in 2:14.06 (with me as the accidental pacemaker).

Nice going. Did you go under 2:15 yourself ?

oldrunner · 10-02-2014 2:12pm

Should be - results weren't available yesterday but I was only 2 or 3 steps back.

dna_leri · 10-02-2014 2:21pm

pconn062 wrote: »

One thing I was querying about and I thought it might be interesting to discuss here is quality work at race pace and how much to do. For example, if you are doing 1500m pace work I've read that you should limit the amount of quality work to 2-2.5k, which seems a little low to me (10x400m is a pretty standard mile workout and involves 4k of quality work). So how do you decide how much is enough for 800/1500/3000m work? Curious to hear peoples opinions.

Definitely 2-2.5K at 1500 pace is low.
It would not be unreasonable to do that at 800m pace, with something like 10-12x200.
It really will depend on your overall level of fitness and what recoveries you take.
I think you have to be a bit flexible in a session like that too if you have not done it before.
I remember planning a 10x400 @ 1500 pace on a hot day last summer (seems a distant memory now) but with tired legs I was fading on the 8th one so cut it short rather than do them slower.
I think Daniels has a formula for % of total mileage to be done at certain paces and that's probably the right way to approach it but then customise for the individual.

ecoli · 10-02-2014 4:06pm

pconn062 wrote: »

One thing I was querying about and I thought it might be interesting to discuss here is quality work at race pace and how much to do. For example, if you are doing 1500m pace work I've read that you should limit the amount of quality work to 2-2.5k, which seems a little low to me (10x400m is a pretty standard mile workout and involves 4k of quality work). So how do you decide how much is enough for 800/1500/3000m work? Curious to hear peoples opinions.

I would say general rule of thumb would be as

800m - roughly double distance (i.e 1600)
1500m - Roughly treble distance
3000m - slightly above double

I think this sort of workload is achieveable to get best benefits provided the recoveries is appropriate. I am a big fan of running sets when it comes to middle distance work.

Taking the classic 10-12 x 400m @ 1500m pace normally run with recoveries of anything from 60-90 second recovery (depending on the time of season and the coach) for me I would prefer to break this up into sets with very short recovery in sets and longer recovery in between sets.

So 12x400m off 60-75 then becomes 3x4x400 with 45-60 sec between reps and 3-5 min between sets. This for me provides a more specific stimulus as you are effectively running race pace for 1600m off very short recoveries but by able to still get the required volume in for the aerobic gains. Your body gets more efficient at running at race pace as you are maintaining race pace in a more comfortable state (when I say comfortable I mean as close to race conditions as possible within training) as opposed to hanging on for the last few reps of a straight 10-12 reps

Larry Brent · 10-02-2014 5:01pm

10 x 400 at 1500 pace is a very hard session for me, probably too hard, takes too much out of me. But I know it’s a classic that many people like.

Just looking over my training from last year. Ran an April marathon, and decided to get back to the track. Ran 4:30 3 times about 5 years ago, so was keen to try to beat that, but had done very little short distance racing since. Started in May, race was early July. Training was usually Tues and Saturday, was doing about 40-50m a week.

Kicked off with a couple of races to see where I was and then got down to some sessions.

7 weeks out
1m race 5:04. a bit disappointed not to get under 5, but had no speed at all, no turnover and no power output. Followed up with 15min tempo Salazaar style!!

6 weeks out
Mon - 3000m race 9:58. Happy with this, job done, splits 3:18/3:24/3:16.

Sat - 1200 @ 5k, 2x600 @ 3k, 2x400 @ 1500, 5x200 fast all off 90s = 4:05/1:56/1:56/75/73, fekt hamstring 1st 200 so bailed there.

5 weeks to go
Tues
5x500 @ 1500 off 2mins, 8x150 fast = 95/94/93/92/92

Sat - 5min pickup during w/u (coach does this a fair bit, 5mins tempo towards the end of the warm up),
5x300 @ 1500 off 2mins = 53/52/52/52/51, 5mins rest,
5x200 @ 800 off 2mins = 35/33/34/33/32, 5mins rest
fast 400 (‘feel like the 2nd 400 in an 800 race’ we were instructed) = 66
4x150 accelerations

4 weeks to go
Tweaked hamstring during drills on Tuesday, so no sessions this week.

3 weeks to go
Tues - 12x400 2x2 relay (i.e. you do 400, then your similar level partner does 400 while you recover, then you go again and so on) = 80/77/76/77/76/75/76/76/75/77/74/73
4x100m strides

Sat
Missed session, was away

2 weeks to go

Tues
3x400 off 90s = 73/71/70, 4mins rest
4x800 off 2mins = 2:37/2:37/2:38/2:35
6x100m strides

Sat
10x400 off 60s = 78/77/77/78/78/77/78/78/78/79, was about 35 degrees

1 week to go
Tues
5x800 off 2mins = 2:37/2:40/2:38/2:38/2:37
6x100m strdies

Fri - 8k race, 29:07 (probably shouldn’t have done this but it was a race in a 6 race series with a good money prize that I was in a battle to win my age group)

Race week
Tues
2 x (400 @ 1500, 300 @ 800, 200 @ 95% whatever that means). 2mins between reps, 4 mins between sets = 71/50/32, 69/51/32
4x100m strides

Fri
Race
4:28, 2s PB. Splits 72/72/71/53. Delighted with this. Showed that with a good base (from marathon training) and a small bit of faster work I could run well, but that there was a lot of room for improvement. A few build up races would have helped a lot (I just couldn’t get to any the way things worked out and there were no more after this one). I knew from training that I was getting used to 72s a lap, but any time I had tried anything faster (not often but the odd sub 70 400 or 50/51 300) I was really, really struggling. So I knew I had to go off steady enough, a big gap built up and I had to work very hard 3rd lap to try to make it up (that was the plan anyhow). Legs failed me at 80m to go and just about managed to hold it together. A few build up races, a little bit of sharpening work at the faster paces and hopefully I’ll be able to go out with the leaders (seeded races, everyone in the race will have a SB, seed time within 2secs of each other) the next time and race it rather than time trial it. Roll on the summer.

ecoli · 10-02-2014 5:24pm

Interesting to see how you laid things out Larry after Marathon considering this will be my approach also. I noticed a few hamstring tweaks in the early weeks, did you do any transition work and what is your strength and conditioning work like or do you do any?

I do agree regardig more build up races always find you are talking 4-5 races before you fully get going in any middle distance season

Larry Brent · 10-02-2014 7:39pm

ecoli wrote: »

did you do any transition work

No, I missed all the preparatory work with the April marathon. Compact season where I am - 1st race early May, last race early July. So I just dove in and had a bit of fun with it. This year I will be more prepared. Doing a kind of HM block till early March even though I probably won’t even race one. Then after a small break into track preparation work, with a few races in May/June to get ready for the big one in July. Just doing 2 workouts, Thurs and Sunday. Thursday is a 3 week cycle of:

1) 20-30mins at 10m-HM effort
2) hill session
3) 60-80mins steady/marathon effort.

After this we go to an indoor track where we do either:

1) Texan strides (10x150 @ 800/1500 pace off 150 jog in 50-60s)
2) 10x200 off 60s stand (start at 3000m pace, work down to 800)
3) 200/300/400/300/200 cut downs (build up on the 200 and 300 so that you’re ready for the 400 @ 1500 pace, then the 300 and 200 progressively faster). I’m really enjoying these, even after the preceding work, it’s nice to get the legs going.

Sunday then is marathon type long runs.

ecoli wrote: »

strength and conditioning work like or do you do any?

I injured my hamstring on New Years eve 2012. That hampered my marathon build, so I started working on some S and C then. I wasn’t too good at doing it consistently enough, so this year I have made a better effort. I have some weights in my basement and do the following 3 times a week (or just twice if I feel the Thursday night faster stuff in the legs):

Squats
Deadlifts
Super Achilles Strengthener
Single Leg Deadlift
Plyo Intro - hopping

As the weeks go on, I’ll graduate to more running specific weights like the stuff in the Galen Rupp Workout of the Week, or the New Zealand brothers weight training in Kenya clip (basically incorporating running movements whilst ding the weights) and start doing more plyometric work. I was doing push ups and chin ups also, but knocked these on the head due to time constraints for now. Wouldn’t be a fan of typical ‘core’ exercises.

pconn062 · 22-02-2014 11:09pm

Thought this might be of interest to some.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5068941

ecoli · 23-02-2014 12:28pm

ecoli wrote: »

Looking at your race report I still reckon you have a 2.10-2.12 in you. Personally I think you might be running your first 200 a little too hard given that you are relying on your ability over shorter distances.

Generally strength based runners tend to go hard from the gun while more speed based runners aim to try and wind it up in the second half of the race. Running 31-32 opening is hard and is gonna to be very difficult for you to maintain and could even negate the effect of a kick (Either by not having one or slowing too much in the 3/4 that it cancels out the time made with winding it up) I reckon your speed would stand to you more by going out in 33-34 pace and trying to up it from there (thats still close PB pace or quicker)

(Just an opinion)

dna_leri wrote: »

I would disagree with 800m strategy for 400m runners. Speed based runners will not have the aerobic strength to wind it up in the 2nd half. A 64-65s opening lap will be relatively easy for a 55s 400m guy and could still do a 68 2nd lap. Whereas a distance runner should go closer to even splits since he has the strength to finish without slowing down as much as the sprinter.

Following on from a discussion the was starting in the training logs I thought it made sense to move it here.

While I would agree with regards the strength runner aiming to even splits I think a more 200-400 speed based runner aiming to run 800 probably won't five a 65 as relatively easy as it should be and as a result lose a significant amount of time in the 400-600m split. In terms of winding it up in the second half I think with a conservative first lap they still should be able to manage a negative split. For me running a harder first lap will cause an aerobically weak athlete to wilt more significantly event if it is significantly slower than 400m capability, to the point where the first lap really does need to feel like a jog for the athlete.

Looking at the likes of Billy Ryan, Niall Tuohy and internationally Borzakovskiy I have often found that some of their best races (in terms of times not just tactical affairs for the win) have been at the result of such tactics.

pconn062 · 23-02-2014 1:00pm

I've often heard it said that there's no such thing as a true 400/800m runner, that the training required for both events is so differing to ever be truly successful at both events. Even trying to run reasonably decent times for 800m for a 400m runner seems a little pointless, other than for social reasons.

ecoli · 23-02-2014 1:18pm

pconn062 wrote: »

I've often heard it said that there's no such thing as a true 400/800m runner, that the training required for both events is so differing to ever be truly successful at both events. Even trying to run reasonably decent times for 800m for a 400m runner seems a little pointless, other than for social reasons.

One word..... Juantorena

. I think the term is more based around a way of categorizing the type of runner (Speed based or endurance based). You don't have to look far to see this type of categorizations - English (Speed based) Robinson (Strength based), Rudisha (Speed), Kaki (Strength)

I would disagree with the idea of over distance for a 400m runner (and most runners in general) being pointless and think that it serves a great purpose in boosting the likes of lactic tolerance and other physiological stimulii (under distance) as well as aerobic capacity (Over distance)

This country doesn't have much of this tradition (Big Red Dave Mac being one example) but in the US 400/800m doubles are fairly common at high school and collegiate level

dna_leri · 23-02-2014 10:46pm

Juantorena - for those of you too young to remember:

Split 50.85 on way to 1:43.50 gold
44.26 in 400m a few days later
So first lap was 115% of 400m time.
For a 55s 400m runner, 115% would be a 63s opener.

I rest my case.

ecoli · 24-02-2014 8:16pm

dna_leri wrote: »

Juantorena - for those of you too young to remember:

Split 50.85 on way to 1:43.50 gold
44.26 in 400m a few days later
So first lap was 115% of 400m time.
For a 55s 400m runner, 115% would be a 63s opener.

I rest my case.

Point taken. I have had a closer look at splits and there would be a good bit more evidence to back up your approach (the 400-600 split usually being the determining factor moreso than the 400 splits)

ecoli · 06-03-2014 11:04pm

Don't like to see this thread fall as low as it is. How is everyone's training going? After packing in the marathon training in early due to circumstances (although looking at my result from the weekend was a little premature but how in ever) I have transitioned back to 10k style work for the next 8 weeks with slowly incorporating a little bit more paced stuff after which plan to give track a decent go so it could be a nice old fashioned periodized approach.

Next 8 weeks are going to be hills, tempos/ cruise intervals, and a 5k paced session every second week. Proper track work will start early may.

Interested to hear where people are in there training. A post indoor season aerobic phase or transitioning out of base/strength training at this stage?

Timmaay · 06-03-2014 11:38pm

Back into more of a distance focus here for the next few weeks also, after my very short lived indoor season (one 800 race ha). Will do afew 5k road races, and hopefully the raheny road relays, maybe a track 3k if I find one.

dna_leri · 06-03-2014 11:43pm

ecoli wrote: »

Don't like to see this thread fall as low as it is. How is everyone's training going?

...

Interested to hear where people are in there training. A post indoor season aerobic phase or transitioning out of base/strength training at this stage?

After a very short indoor season, I'm building a bigger base.
Average mileage for last 4 weeks is higher than my peak mileage last year and looking good for this week. Trying to keep in touch with speed as well. Will do a 5K this weekend as a tester, and again in early May.

I'll be in no hurry to start competing on track - looking to peak late in August.

ecoli · 06-03-2014 11:44pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Back into more of a distance focus here for the next few weeks also, after my very short lived indoor season (one 800 race ha). Will do afew 5k road races, and hopefully the raheny road relays, maybe a track 3k if I find one.

Probably my next race to. Was looking at the BHAA 10k th day before but somehow I can't see me getting away with that if needed for a team.

Usually the gradeds kick off a week or two after that (though no sign of the booklet yet this year)

dna_leri · 06-03-2014 11:44pm

Timmaay wrote: »

Back into more of a distance focus here for the next few weeks also, after my very short lived indoor season (one 800 race ha). Will do afew 5k road races, and hopefully the raheny road relays, maybe a track 3k if I find one.

snap

The Middle Distance Thread

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