Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

road_high · 10-07-2020 10:59pm

GT89 wrote: »

Already has capacity was 25% until masks became mandatory now 50%. For example it was 17 people on a double decker bus a few weeks ago it's now 37.

Surely still not viable for private operators. They can’t make money on those kind of numbers

GT89 · 10-07-2020 11:06pm

road_high wrote: »

Surely still not viable for private operators. They can’t make money on those kind of numbers

Wexford Bus, Swords Express, Asbourne Connect and Matthews. Aircoach and Citylink are due to be coming back late July/early August.

road_high · 10-07-2020 11:19pm

https://www.facebook.com/209087559173226/posts/3008465702568717/

People are at their whits end with them now. DC are the only and major service to many towns and it’s really effecting some people that use them for work and travel

GT89 · 10-07-2020 11:22pm

road_high wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/209087559173226/posts/3008465702568717/

People are at their whits end with them now. DC are the only and major service to many towns and it’s really effecting some people that use them for work and travel

If that's the case should a case not be made to the NTA to provide a PSO service rather than a commercial service to those areas

road_high · 10-07-2020 11:27pm

GT89 wrote: »

If that's the case should a case not be made to the NTA to provide a PSO service rather than a commercial service to those areas

I don’t know tbh. Surely it suits the state to allow private operators just run a service without any taxpayer commitments. It’s now the areas served are feeling the pinch

bk · 10-07-2020 11:29pm

Ohmeha wrote: »

And Gardaí still won't have any legally enforceable powers on Monday so don't expect the many who haven't been wearing masks to suddenly change their attitude on Monday

Signed into law tonight. Gardai now have enforceable powers.

€2,500 fine and/or 6 months in jail. Pretty surprising and serious stuff.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0710/1152583-public-transport-masks-compulsory/

GT89 · 10-07-2020 11:43pm

bk wrote: »

Signed into law tonight. Gardai now have enforceable powers.

€2,500 fine and/or 6 months in jail. Pretty surprising and serious stuff.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0710/1152583-public-transport-masks-compulsory/

That's up to €2.5k fines/6 months in jail. I somehow cannot see too many of those fines being dished down. The max fine on Luas/DB/IE/BE is €1k and a district court appearance. The same standard fare for travelling without a valid ticket of €100 or €50 if paid before 21 days would be more appropriate here.

Afaik an inspector can only notify AGS in cases of non compliance but cannot issue a fine.

devnull · 10-07-2020 11:44pm

road_high wrote: »

Surely still not viable for private operators. They can’t make money on those kind of numbers

It's a terrible commercial environment out there.

Whilst there are schemes to help pay the wages of their staff, all of these companies will still be making payments on various other providers, fleet rental payments, technology licenses, utilities and all the other day to day stuff that still has a bill every month regardless of whether there are running services or not, whilst having not a cent coming through the door for the last few months.

Then even when they start operating there's not going to be the student demand, the demand for services to Dublin Airport has gone through the floor, people are not taking holidays, the leisure market has collapsed, event related traffic is gone as they've been cancelled and work related travel is at an all time low as things are increasingly being done remotely.

I would imagine that in the next few weeks we will be seeing some operators come back but it's not going to be anything like a full timetable. If a company did that they'd effectively be signing their own death warrant in the present trading environment. Any company reliant on commercial routes would be acting recklessly if they started business as usual tomorrow.

punisher5112 · 10-07-2020 11:45pm

GT89 wrote: »

Wexford Bus, Swords Express, Asbourne Connect and Matthews. Aircoach and Citylink are due to be coming back late July/early August.

Wexford bus never stopped but did cut back, I've seen swords express back a good while now too.

ressem · 11-07-2020 12:27am

GT89 wrote: »

I still can't see how it will be enforceable as this doesn't apply to everyone. Unless Gardai are really going to be out in force on every bus, train and Luas.

Even if bus drivers do want to enforce this how are they going to argue with someone who claims they Astma, COPD or any other breathing difficulty even if it is complete bs. If they are refused then someone could claim discrimination or harrassment I suspect.

As a disclaimer this isn't me being anti mask or just being controversial for the sake of it. I'm simply looking at the practicalities of it.

The Local Link driver just asked passengers if they had a mask, they have a sign up offering disposable masks for €1.50, and advised the reluctant passengers to bring a mask for the next journey. No aggression or prohibition, just making the policy clear that going without a mask is not acceptable behaviour.

Irish rail station staff in contrast say out loud that they won't enforce it, even though throughout the quarantine they've been hanging around in groups of 3-4 at the doors having a natter between themselves, while passengers are expected to walk between them.

GT89 · 11-07-2020 12:36am

ressem wrote: »

The Local Link driver just asked passengers if they had a mask, they have a sign up offering disposable masks for €1.50, and advised the reluctant passengers to bring a mask for the next journey. No aggression or prohibition, just making the policy clear that going without a mask is not acceptable behaviour.

Irish rail station staff in contrast say out loud that they won't enforce it, even though throughout the quarantine they've been hanging around in groups of 3-4 at the doors having a natter between themselves, while passengers are expected to walk between them.

Bit of a difference between Local Link and Dublin Bus. A lot more interaction between the driver and the passengers on those types of services and in a much more informal manner.

stephenjmcd · 11-07-2020 2:15am

Transport Unions saying tonight that none of their members will enforce it

Tzardine · 11-07-2020 6:44am

I bet if I tried to get on a bus without paying the driver would challenge me and not let me on.

Funny how they pick and choose what rules to enforce.

I expect a pay claim to come from the unions soon. Usually when unions are this vocal about something it is not far behind.

GT89 · 11-07-2020 9:23am

Tzardine wrote: »

I bet if I tried to get on a bus without paying the driver would challenge me and not let me on.

Funny how they pick and choose what rules to enforce.

I expect a pay claim to come from the unions soon. Usually when unions are this vocal about something it is not far behind.

There are numerous medical reasons to not wear a mask which are considered legit. How is a bus driver supposed to know who has a medical reason not to wear a mask and who doesn't.

Everyone has to pay their fare or scan their pass so that's relatively straightforward to enforce but not everyone has to wear a mask.

StreetLight · 11-07-2020 10:13am

Tzardine wrote: »

Usually when unions are this vocal about something it is not far behind.

Or it could be just vocal about their members concerns about not wishing to contract the virus from doing a day's essential work and bringing it home to their families.

ExMachina1000 · 11-07-2020 10:15am

A bus driver in France has died after being beaten by passengers who refused to wear masks.

Sad story. This is why bus drivers shouldn't have to enforce

road_high · 11-07-2020 10:41am

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A bus driver in France has died after being beaten by passengers who refused to wear masks.

Sad story. This is why bus drivers shouldn't have to enforce

Bus drivers have enough to do without having to enforce this too. It’s a legal matter for AGS. Another example of why we need a dedicated transport police

Midnight_EG · 11-07-2020 11:38am

Tzardine wrote: »

I bet if I tried to get on a bus without paying the driver would challenge me and not let me on.

Funny how they pick and choose what rules to enforce.

What a stupid comparison. We're fare collectors until you get past the white line, not medical practitioners or a guard :rolleyes:

Tzardine · 11-07-2020 12:14pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

What a stupid comparison. We're fare collectors until you get past the white line, not medical practitioners or a guard :rolleyes:

So if I jump and a bus and breeze past the driver and the white line what happens?

Bloody sure the driver will challenge me and tell me to pay or get off the bus. This is not their job. Same argument applies, they are not security, revenue protection or garda. But they will do it anyway.

How hard is it for a driver to tell somebody they need to wear a mask? If they say they have a medical condition then wave them by, no further questioning needed. But the very fact that the bus driver will have this interaction with passengers will make compliance with mask wearing much greater. We need everybody to play their part. Its not a big ask for drivers. But as usual the unions will make a mountain out of it and a non issue will turn into an ordeal. I bet if an allowance was offered it would suddenly be no issue at all.

Midnight_EG · 11-07-2020 12:24pm

Tzardine wrote: »

So if I jump and a bus and breeze past the driver and the white line what happens?

Bloody sure the driver will challenge me and tell me to pay or get off the bus. This is not their job. Same argument applies, they are not security, revenue protection or garda. But they will do it anyway.

How hard is it for a driver to tell somebody they need to wear a mask? If they say they have a medical condition then wave them by, no further questioning needed. But the very fact that the bus driver will have this interaction with passengers will make compliance with mask wearing much greater. We need everybody to play their part. Its not a big ask for drivers. But as usual the unions will make a mountain out of it and a non issue will turn into an ordeal. I bet if an allowance was offered it would suddenly be no issue at all.

Fare collection is the very first part of our job before we even contemplate getting you to your destination. If you walk past me without a screed of respect and dodging the fare then you can be sure I'm calling you out and having 30-60 sets of eyes on you. It's in the job description and it's one of our duties as a driver, so yes it IS our job.

Forming a medical opinion based on what a passenger says (I have asthma, I have whatever other breathing difficulty) is not part of our job description and it certainly isn't a qualification we need or have to do the job. Therefore, I won't be the person throwing people off for wearing, or indeed not wearing a mask.

Until you're in the position, your opinion is baseless.

GT89 · 11-07-2020 12:37pm

Tzardine wrote: »

So if I jump and a bus and breeze past the driver and the white line what happens?

Bloody sure the driver will challenge me and tell me to pay or get off the bus. This is not their job. Same argument applies, they are not security, revenue protection or garda. But they will do it anyway.

How hard is it for a driver to tell somebody they need to wear a mask? If they say they have a medical condition then wave them by, no further questioning needed. But the very fact that the bus driver will have this interaction with passengers will make compliance with mask wearing much greater. We need everybody to play their part. Its not a big ask for drivers. But as usual the unions will make a mountain out of it and a non issue will turn into an ordeal. I bet if an allowance was offered it would suddenly be no issue at all.

And that may happen since drivers are capable of making their own decisions they don't need a union making it for them. That's what happens in the UK already some drivers point it out and advise passengers that wearing a mask is requirement but can't enforce.

dashcamdanny · 11-07-2020 1:24pm

Tzardine wrote: »

I bet if I tried to get on a bus without paying the driver would challenge me and not let me on.

Funny how they pick and choose what rules to enforce.

I expect a pay claim to come from the unions soon. Usually when unions are this vocal about something it is not far behind.

Collecting fares is the bus drivers job.

Enforcing public health issues is not.

If you feel so strongly about it, you challenge people over it.

You have as much authority as the bus driver. (none)
See how you get on.

Im betting you would have a black eye by the end on the day.

ExMachina1000 · 11-07-2020 1:32pm

If its government signed off legislation then it's up to the Gardai to enforce. Nobody else

GT89 · 11-07-2020 2:26pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A bus driver in France has died after being beaten by passengers who refused to wear masks.

Sad story. This is why bus drivers shouldn't have to enforce

RIP no one shouldn't come home from a days work

Charles Babbage · 11-07-2020 2:34pm

GT89 wrote: »

There are numerous medical reasons to not wear a mask which are considered legit. How is a bus driver supposed to know who has a medical reason not to wear a mask and who doesn't.

Everyone has to pay their fare or scan their pass so that's relatively straightforward to enforce but not everyone has to wear a mask.

These reasons not to wear a mask do not make the person less infectious, so some people will have a free pass to spread infection, which is hardly fair either to staff or other public transport customers.

There may be valid reasons for people not to wear masks, but that should mean that they are not permitted to use public transport. The present proposition is ridiculous, as usual.

thenightman · 11-07-2020 3:14pm

We're the best country at legislating, and worst country for enforcement! If AGS were to stick a few plain clothes guards on the buses over next fortnight and fine everyone not masked up, I'm sure compliance would be near enough to full fairly quickly. But that would make too much sense, AGS time is far better spent checking to see if restaurants have a few cans of Guinness stashed in the back or making sure people have paid €9 for a bowl of chicken wings in a pub.

bk · 11-07-2020 3:22pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Collecting fares is the bus drivers job.

Enforcing public health issues is not.

In the past it wasn't the job of people working in shops to stand outside, enforcing queues and making people wearing masks before entering, yet here we are, they have been doing it for months now.

Before the smoking ban, it wasn't the job of publicans and restaurant/cafe workers to tell smokers to stop, yet now here we are...

Jobs change over time as new requirements come up.

Covid19 is caused most jobs to change (for those lucky enough to still have one) and yes it sucks.

But it is the right thing to do.

It is the right thing to do to protect your own health and the health of your family and friends.

It is the right thing to do to protect the other passengers on the bus.

It is the right thing to do for our entire country and economy.

Midnight_EG · 11-07-2020 3:36pm

bk wrote: »

In the past it wasn't the job of people working in shops to stand outside, enforcing queues and making people wearing masks before entering, yet here we are, they have been doing it for months now.

Before the smoking ban, it wasn't the job of publicans and restaurant/cafe workers to tell smokers to stop, yet now here we are...

Jobs change over time as new requirements come up.

Covid19 is caused most jobs to change (for those lucky enough to still have one) and yes it sucks.

But it is the right thing to do.

It is the right thing to do to protect your own health and the health of your family and friends.

It is the right thing to do to protect the other passengers on the bus.

It is the right thing to do for our entire country and economy.

Except an argument over compliance can stick in a drivers mind for far beyond the time it took to have that argument. That can lead to increased tension, and making rash judgments in the course of his duty and suddenly he's hit somebody/something because his mind was taken away by something stupidly unnecessary. A shopkeeper won't accidently drive over a motorbike because he had an argument, but a bus driver can. It's not our job, and it shouldn't be and it won't be.

ExMachina1000 · 11-07-2020 4:11pm

bk wrote: »

In the past it wasn't the job of people working in shops to stand outside, enforcing queues and making people wearing masks before entering, yet here we are, they have been doing it for months now.

Before the smoking ban, it wasn't the job of publicans and restaurant/cafe workers to tell smokers to stop, yet now here we are...

Jobs change over time as new requirements come up.

Covid19 is caused most jobs to change (for those lucky enough to still have one) and yes it sucks.

But it is the right thing to do.

It is the right thing to do to protect your own health and the health of your family and friends.

It is the right thing to do to protect the other passengers on the bus.

It is the right thing to do for our entire country and economy.

It's still not the bus drivers job. Nor should it be. The legislation means the garda must enforce it

GT89 · 11-07-2020 9:32pm

bk wrote: »

In the past it wasn't the job of people working in shops to stand outside, enforcing queues and making people wearing masks before entering, yet here we are, they have been doing it for months now.

Before the smoking ban, it wasn't the job of publicans and restaurant/cafe workers to tell smokers to stop, yet now here we are...

Jobs change over time as new requirements come up.

Covid19 is caused most jobs to change (for those lucky enough to still have one) and yes it sucks.

But it is the right thing to do.

It is the right thing to do to protect your own health and the health of your family and friends.

It is the right thing to do to protect the other passengers on the bus.

It is the right thing to do for our entire country and economy.

If they said back in March or April that we should all be wearing masks then I suspect the levels of compliance would be far higher by now. I have been impressed by the more level headed approach taken by the Scandinavian countries nobody wears in Denmark or Norway for example yet they've much fewer deaths than most European countries and were some of the first to come out of lockdown.

Look the fact of the matter is as long as the medical exemptions exist it will be unenforceable they hardly genuinely expect bus drivers to be reading out a medical certificate of everyone who travels without a mask. Those who do not want to wear a mask will find a way not too. You also cannot reasonably expect a bus driver to be checking the CCTV monitors constantly to make sure no one has removed their mask.

I'd also like to point out that on the buses, trains and Luas I have been on the majority of people were wearing masks and the same on the buses and trains I have seen passing. The majority of passengers don't put their feet on the seats, don't leave litter behind, don't play music without earphones or don't eat unpleasant smelling food. A minority of passengers not wearing masks are hardly the next lockdown waiting to happen.

thenightman · 11-07-2020 11:22pm

My X route bus in the mornings pretty much has 99% mask compliance and is mainly the same people every morning going to work. Regular bus I get home in the evenings though might have 1 in 5 wearing masks. This mix is generally teenagers, young families and people coming out of town with Pennys bags etc.

dashcamdanny · 12-07-2020 10:50am

bk wrote: »

In the past it wasn't the job of people working in shops to stand outside, enforcing queues and making people wearing masks before entering, yet here we are, they have been doing it for months now.

Before the smoking ban, it wasn't the job of publicans and restaurant/cafe workers to tell smokers to stop, yet now here we are...

Jobs change over time as new requirements come up.

Covid19 is caused most jobs to change (for those lucky enough to still have one) and yes it sucks.

But it is the right thing to do.

It is the right thing to do to protect your own health and the health of your family and friends.

It is the right thing to do to protect the other passengers on the bus.

It is the right thing to do for our entire country and economy.

I think there is a difference.

Places like Tesco , pubs and so on have to be compliant to stay open and survive. And they must enforce the guide lines to avoid being shut down.

The transport system is different. We are not being told we must enforce the rules to stay open for business.

As always the ball is firmly in our court.

If everyone else wants to survive, then they need us to stay open for business.

CIE will not employ any more security staff. Thats not going to happen.

We deal with the lowest form of life ( as well as the best) in our daily routine.
We are not security. Im not qualified to grab you and escort you out.

Tesco, pubs, big retail parks and places that deal with large amounts of public have ther own security as well as OCS and other security contractors to deal with di+kheads.

What do you expect me to do in the middle of the suburbs as night with a couple of people on. Knowing that the Garda will not arrive for 30 mins.

I can suggest you wear a mask. But I also want to go home without an injury and undue stress.

They can of course , train me, pay me more and ask if I want to take it on an extra massive duty that was not in my job description.

But thats not going to happen either.

Dravokivich · 13-07-2020 9:25am

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I can suggest you wear a mask. But I also want to go home without an injury and undue stress.

That guy in France didn't make it home and all he did was ask someone without a mask to get off the bus.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/philippe-monguillot-french-bus-driver-dies-following-attack-passengers-refused-wear-masks

(in case people didn't hear about it.)

dashcamdanny · 13-07-2020 9:49am

Dravokivich wrote: »

That guy in France didn't make it home and all he did was ask someone without a mask to get off the bus.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/philippe-monguillot-french-bus-driver-dies-following-attack-passengers-refused-wear-masks

(in case people didn't hear about it.)

Yeah. But that could happen over any reason in fairness. Over a fare or smoking for example. Plus he did not have a screen I believe.

There is going to be alot of confrontations this week over this . I have a few dodgy routes where im going to give them time to get used to the idea before asking/telling them to wear one. If at all.

I also expect alot of dropped laps on routes as drivers simply turn off the engine and wait for the garda.

interesting week ahead for sure

cherryghost · 13-07-2020 1:28pm

Lots of younger people without masks on buses today...

bk · 13-07-2020 2:05pm

Reports on reddit and twitter saying that most drivers are stopping people not wearing masks.

Brilliant, I'd like to say thanks to all of you who are doing the right thing.

I know it is hard dealing with some people and I hope you don't get too much agro, but I just want to say that the majority of regular commuters really appreciate you doing the right thing.

Also reports of DB inspectors out and about boarding buses and throwing people off.

Luas Security and Gardai doing the same on the Luas.

Also it sounds like most people are voluntarily wearing masks themselves. It sounds like most people wanted to wear masks all along, but were too worried to do so until their was some force of law behind it. Now the majority feel comfortable wearing their mask and the "people" who don't stick out like a sore thumb and hopefully feel the social pressure to do so too. It kind of reminds me of the smoking ban.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0713/1152904-covid19-coronavirus-ireland/

I'm really proud of all the people of Ireland who are doing the right thing for their community. The passengers wearing masks and the drivers, ticket inspectors, security and Gardai enforcing it. Each and everyone who is doing this are saving peoples lives.

Working class heroes · 13-07-2020 2:14pm

bk wrote: »

Reports on reddit and twitter saying that most drivers are stopping people not wearing masks.

Brilliant, I'd like to say thanks to all of you who are doing the right thing.

I know it is hard dealing with some people and I hope you don't get too much agro, but I just want to say that the majority of regular commuters really appreciate you doing the right thing.

Also reports of DB inspectors out and about boarding buses and throwing people off.

Luas Security and Gardai doing the same on the Luas.

Also it sounds like most people are voluntarily wearing masks themselves. It sounds like most people wanted to wear masks all along, but were too worried to do so until their was some force of law behind it. Now the majority feel comfortable wearing their mask and the "people" who don't stick out like a sore thumb and hopefully feel the social pressure to do so too. It kind of reminds me of the smoking ban.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0713/1152904-covid19-coronavirus-ireland/

I'm really proud of all the people of Ireland who are doing the right thing for their community. The passengers wearing masks and the drivers, ticket inspectors, security and Gardai enforcing it. Each and everyone who is doing this are saving peoples lives.

Well said.

Tzardine · 13-07-2020 2:46pm

On the train as I type this.

Irish Rail staff stopping people from boarding without a mask in Heuston. Train was also boarded by IR staff in Clondalkin who went through the carriages and challenged anybody not wearing a mask.

No staff were killed during the process, despite the claims from the bus drivers on this thread to suggest otherwise.

Was on 3 buses today and did not see any intervention from DB staff. Nice to see reports above to suggest otherwise. Drivers need to cop on and get on with it.

Midnight_EG · 13-07-2020 3:20pm

Lol, put half of the posters here on a 13, 27 or a 40 off peak and see how compliance goes. It's easy to say people are following the rules when ye're on the morning or evening rush with actual workers. No point in saying the majority of drivers are doing it when there's 1000+ of us and you're experiencing 2 drivers a day on an easy route at 8am and 6pm full of 9 to 5'ers.

ExMachina1000 · 13-07-2020 3:34pm

Tzardine wrote: »

Drivers need to cop on and get on with it.

Expand on this please.

Tzardine · 13-07-2020 3:36pm

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Expand on this please.

What would you like to know?

Midnight_EG · 13-07-2020 3:38pm

Tzardine wrote: »

What would you like to know?

Why you feel the duty of care is on us to police people's own stupidity and/or inherent behavioural issues?

Tzardine · 13-07-2020 3:43pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Why you feel the duty of care is on us to police people's own stupidity and/or inherent behavioural issues?

Because you have the ability to make a big impact for the greater good for little effort on your part.

Midnight_EG · 13-07-2020 3:45pm

Tzardine wrote: »

Because you have the ability to make a big impact for the greater good for little effort on your part.

We're not guards, we're not doctors and we're certainly not people's mammys. We drive busses, that's it.

Tzardine · 13-07-2020 3:49pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

We're not guards, we're not doctors and we're certainly not people's mammys. We drive busses, that's it.

Covid-19 has us all doing things we were not doing 6 months ago. So my point stands - cop on and get on with it.

Your union colleagues in Irish Rail are doing it. Not drivers granted, but the staff that are doing it are not "doctors or people's mannys" either.

Does not reflect well on bus drivers.

Midnight_EG · 13-07-2020 3:54pm

Tzardine wrote: »

Covid-19 has us all doing things we were not doing 6 months ago. So my point stands - cop on and get on with it.

Your union colleagues in Irish Rail are doing it. Not drivers granted, but the staff that are doing it are not "doctors or people's mannys" either.

Does not reflect well on bus drivers.

Not drivers... Crux of your point eh?

GT89 · 13-07-2020 3:55pm

Tzardine wrote: »

Drivers need to cop on and get on with it.

Get on with what. If you're talking about the job at hand driving the bus I think you'll find most drivers are doing just that.

Tzardine · 13-07-2020 3:59pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Not drivers... Crux of your point eh?

No not really. You missed the point, or have chosen to ignore it.

Irish Rail staff that are not doctors, and who are not specifically contracted to do so, are enforcing mandatory mask wearing.

As the only Dublin Bus staff member on a bus, why are drivers not doing so?

The reasons being touted are weak and frankly embarrassing. As I said, your other union colleagues have no issue doing these duties.

Tzardine · 13-07-2020 4:00pm

GT89 wrote: »

Get on with what. If you're talking about the job at hand driving the bus I think you'll find most drivers are doing just that.

Its quite clear what I am referring to. Get on with enforcing the mandatory mask wearing. But of course you knew that.

bk · 13-07-2020 4:01pm

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Not drivers... Crux of your point eh?

But the job is not just driving the bus. It is also taking fares and enforcing the bye-laws of the company. There has always been more to the job then just driving the bus. You know and we all know it.

Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

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