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Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail

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    #2972
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    serfboard wrote: »
    There is no late night bus service to Tuam. And if you want a late night service to Athenry, a bus is your only bet.
    There could be late night bus service to Tuam.
    serfboard wrote: »
    This works - but only for journeys to the City Centre. If you work in Galway, you are more likely to work in Parkmore/Ballybrit/Mervue, and the train is no good to you. If you work in any of the hospitals on the east of the city (Galway Clinic, Merlin Park and the Bons), the train is no good. If you study in GMIT, the train is no good. And so on.
    If you live in Tuam and take the bus to Galway, you likely have a 15+ minute onward journey if your destination is Parkmore, GMIT, MPUH, or UHG. The proposed train station at Murrough would help some of these destinations.
    serfboard wrote: »
    Any other town? How about if I live in Athenry and work in Loughrea? Should we be building a train line for that?
    Car is your only option. Interestingly, there was a Loghrea spur from Attymon, and the north half of the way still legally exists. But the south half was used for the N65.
    serfboard wrote: »
    If I lived in Athenry and worked in Ballinasloe or Athlone, the train would be handy. But that would be on a line that is already built. We are not going to build train infrastructure for the very small number of inter-town passengers.
    The WRC is already "built" to a certain extent. That is, the land is owned, the embankment exists, and the structures (sans the N63 bridge) are existing. Modern railbuilding techniques can lift the rails, recycle the ballast, and re-lay the track inexpensively. The costs lie at level crossings, agricultural overpasses, and station refurbishment (Tuam).
    serfboard wrote: »
    For instance, the three people a day who use the train from Ardrahan are presumably happy to use that service. Should we have spent all the money on the train station that we did, just for those three people?
    Time will tell, but Ardahan has other problems, such as the lack of a sewerage scheme. A proposal to build 23 homes there was refused about a year ago; would any used the station? For the Craughwells, Ardrahan's, and Gort's, modal shift will be extremely slow, at the rate of property turnover. For Tuam commuters, there is a critical mass there.
    serfboard wrote: »
    For sure, trains are better for disabled people. How do you get to the train station from rural County Galway, though? If you drive, then you are most likely to drive to Oranmore P&R and get the train from there - without any additional infrastructure needing to be built.
    In Athenry, the disabled can walk one km (to the degree they can), or they can use a wheelchair, or they can rely on friends, family, and services to give them a five minute lift to the station. That's what we do.


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    #2973
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    If there was a plan to connect the 56th largest urban centre to the 4th largest by rail, there should be a route selection process, I mean the new N17 doesnt follow the old n17 route, why should we expect a new railway to use a route picked fadó fadó?

    I'd prefer to see the 7th or 28th largest urban centres (Swords & Carrigaline) get rail first though.


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    #2974
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    If there was a plan to connect the 56th largest urban centre to the 4th largest by rail, there should be a route selection process, I mean the new N17 doesnt follow the old n17 route, why should we expect a new railway to use a route picked fadó fadó?

    I'd prefer to see the 7th or 28th largest urban centres (Swords & Carrigaline) get rail first though.

    If you live in Swords, I would lobby for any airport link to be extended to your community, as it was in earlier proposals. Rail service to Carrigaline or Passage would appear quite difficult.

    For the Tuam line, the route selection process would be driven by cost, and the savings of €2m/km for using the existing alignment will dominate.

    Strangely, the "new M17" follows the old rail line closely and connects to the M6 at Rathmorrisy. This generated a lot of criticism from those that thought the M17/M18 should connect closer to Galway. I don't pretend to understand the logic of the route, except that perhaps there was some deference given to eastbound traffic on the M6 - to keep it on the motorway rather than local roads. And perhaps the same logic can be applied to the Athenry-Tuam railway.


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    #2975
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    ezstreet5 wrote: »

    Time will tell, but Ardahan has other problems, such as the lack of a sewerage scheme. A proposal to build 23 homes there was refused about a year ago; would any used the station? For the Craughwells, Ardrahan's, and Gort's, modal shift will be extremely slow, at the rate of property turnover.

    .

    I live 1.5km from Craughwell, on the Athenry road. There are 2 people in our house working in Galway city centre, one in Eyre Square itself.

    I/We would love to use rail, but the impediments are:
    1. Schedule: there is no train to get you into Galway before either 7am or 8am
    2. Parking - paying to park at (either) Irish Rail station is actually more expensive than renting a parking space on a full time basis in Galway
    3. Fares - completely out of whack with Dublin. For the same distance (Clonsilla-Dublin), you would pay 1/2 -1/3 the fare. It is cheaper to drive the car.
    4. Taxsaver - not available to anyone except PS and those whose employers sign up - and obviously manage the payment -for it. Why can't an individual taxpayer avail of taxsaver, even if only on redeem at end-of-year basis, from Revenue. Right now Taxsaver is for the select few

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #2976
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,845 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Every private sector employer I've ever been in does taxsaver - employer saves on PRSI so there's a benefit to them too


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    #2977
    Isambard
    Registered Users Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭Isambard


    galwaytt wrote: »
    I live 1.5km from Craughwell, on the Athenry road. There are 2 people in our house working in Galway city centre, one in Eyre Square itself.

    I/We would love to use rail, but the impediments are:
    1. Schedule: there is no train to get you into Galway before either 7am or 8am
    2. Parking - paying to park at (either) Irish Rail station is actually more expensive than renting a parking space on a full time basis in Galway
    3. Fares - completely out of whack with Dublin. For the same distance (Clonsilla-Dublin), you would pay 1/2 -1/3 the fare. It is cheaper to drive the car.
    4. Taxsaver - not available to anyone except PS and those whose employers sign up - and obviously manage the payment -for it. Why can't an individual taxpayer avail of taxsaver, even if only on redeem at end-of-year basis, from Revenue. Right now Taxsaver is for the select few

    there's a train arrives at 7.51 and another at 8.10. There isn't an earlier one though


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    #2978
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I'd prefer to see the 7th or 28th largest urban centres (Swords & Carrigaline) get rail first though.
    That's the thing. There's a list as long as your arm of rail money that needs to be spent, before anyone would begin to look at a WRC North.

    By then (2040s) we would have got two decades of a Greenway in the meantime.

    But no, railway advocates would rather it be left idle. "Railway or rot" is their mantra - thankfully, the public don't see it that way.


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    #2979
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    ezstreet5 wrote: »
    For the Tuam line, the route selection process would be driven by cost, and the savings of €2m/km for using the existing alignment will dominate.
    I said it in an earlier post in reply to Lord Glentoran. Costs, savings and viability should not be the main consideration post-Covid. This country needs a serious shot of public investment immediately or it will go tits up. Money is cheaper than free right now. Infrastructural investment saves money by creating jobs and generates revenue via taxable incomes and VAT. Viability as an argument is a dead duck. If the people in the West keep arguing about legacy, pinch-points, crossings, suitability, CPO's, onside, alongside over or under - the investment will be gladly received elsewhere while we continue to argue about what is essentially nothing more than a ditch. I hope Eamon Ryan brings a fresh globalist eco economical, out of the box, approach to this debate. I suspect he just might.


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    #2980
    Greaney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,247 ✭✭✭Greaney


    galwaytt wrote: »
    I live 1.5km from Craughwell, on the Athenry road. There are 2 people in our house working in Galway city centre, one in Eyre Square itself.

    I/We would love to use rail, but the impediments are:
    1. Schedule: there is no train to get you into Galway before either 7am or 8am
    2. Parking - paying to park at (either) Irish Rail station is actually more expensive than renting a parking space on a full time basis in Galway
    3. Fares - completely out of whack with Dublin. For the same distance (Clonsilla-Dublin), you would pay 1/2 -1/3 the fare. It is cheaper to drive the car.
    4. Taxsaver - not available to anyone except PS and those whose employers sign up - and obviously manage the payment -for it. Why can't an individual taxpayer avail of taxsaver, even if only on redeem at end-of-year basis, from Revenue. Right now Taxsaver is for the select few

    Yes to all of those things.

    *In Oranmore they introduced free parking and the car park is wedged now.
    *Athenry has mixed parking, most of it is 'paid' so within 1.5km a fair few folk cycle.
    *Alas only the daily or weekly tickets are tax deductible to self assessed but an annual ticket would be better for many.
    *The Difference between the return fare from Athenry to Galway, compared to from Ballinasloe is less than €3 which is very skewed!!
    *The commuter towns fares can be over €12 return, yet the annual ticket makes it around €3.50.

    Much to improve


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    #2981
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    serfboard wrote: »
    That's the thing. There's a list as long as your arm of rail money that needs to be spent, before anyone would begin to look at a WRC North.

    By then (2040s) we would have got two decades of a Greenway in the meantime.

    But no, railway advocates would rather it be left idle. "Railway or rot" is their mantra - thankfully, the public don't see it that way.

    There isn't really, You could say Naas should have rail, but Salins is nearby
    and Navan should have passenger rail, but thats it in terms of towns in pop size from Tuam up.

    Obviously there should be more, and better services, but if we want railways, we shouldnt restrict ourselves to the exact lines the victorians decided, before there was ever a rebar, let alone a Continuous welded rail.
    And there should be greenways linking towns and villages on routes also different to the routes the victorians picked.


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    #2982
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Obviously there should be more, and better services, but if we want railways, we shouldnt restrict ourselves to the exact lines the victorians decided, before there was ever a rebar, let alone a Continuous welded rail.
    And there should be greenways linking towns and villages on routes also different to the routes the victorians picked.

    You are right in that we shouldn't restrict ourselves to where new rail routes should go but the hard fact is that Irish government policy has for years actively encouraged road development whereas with rail the attitude has been to not allow new lines to be developed other than along existing routes.

    It's down to money and budgets. Until the government gives rail the same priority as road and actively encourages rail development we will be stuck where we are.


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    #2983
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Isambard wrote: »
    there's a train arrives at 7.51 and another at 8.10. There isn't an earlier one though

    the arrival at 07:51 isn't reliable enough to ensure on-time arrival at work, needs an earlier window -say, in at 07:40 latest.

    08:10 is obviously too late.

    Not sure who the existing timings are aimed at tbh.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #2984
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    There isn't really, You could say Naas should have rail, but Salins is nearby
    and Navan should have passenger rail, but thats it in terms of towns in pop size from Tuam up

    Its not about adding new towns to the rail network, first and foremost we need to up the efficiency and effectiveness of the network. There are many investments in the network which will bring more benefits than a service to Tuam. Just look at the line into Galway, there is no point in laying track to Tuam as all you will get is a shuttle to Athenry until Galway - Athenry is doubletracked. Such a shuttle can be provided by bus immediately and at negligible cost if there is such a pressing need for it.

    Saying Tuam is almost the biggest town in the country without a train station is meaningless, there are plenty of towns with a train station but are woefully underserved and have the potential to add more passengers than Tuam. Tuam is way down the list of projects to be funded and rightly so.


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    #2985
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    River Suir wrote: »
    You are right in that we shouldn't restrict ourselves to where new rail routes should go but the hard fact is that Irish government policy has for years actively encouraged road development whereas with rail the attitude has been to not allow new lines to be developed other than along existing routes.

    It's down to money and budgets. Until the government gives rail the same priority as road and actively encourages rail development we will be stuck where we are.

    Government funding is one thing but development partners as facilitated by Local Authorities in Galway has been focused on individuals driving rather than effective public transport.


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    #2986
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Tuam is way down the list of projects to be funded and rightly so.
    What "list of projects to be funded" are you talking about?


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    #2987
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Its not about adding new towns to the rail network, first and foremost we need to up the efficiency and effectiveness of the network. There are many investments in the network which will bring more benefits than a service to Tuam. Just look at the line into Galway, there is no point in laying track to Tuam as all you will get is a shuttle to Athenry until Galway - Athenry is doubletracked. Such a shuttle can be provided by bus immediately and at negligible cost if there is such a pressing need for it.

    Saying Tuam is almost the biggest town in the country without a train station is meaningless, there are plenty of towns with a train station but are woefully underserved and have the potential to add more passengers than Tuam. Tuam is way down the list of projects to be funded and rightly so.


    I don't understand how Tuam has become the focus of this discussion as it is only an intermediate station on the route the same as Ballyglunin - bigger but an intermediate stop nonetheless. The route is Limerick/Claremorris with all that that entails e.g. onward connections to and from places like Westport, Castlebar and Ballina. The Western Rail Corridor not the Athenry/Tuam shuttle.

    ****



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    #2988
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    The route is Limerick/Claremorris with all that that entails
    Why connect the rail lines at Claremorris?
    A Galway to Boyle rail route could be better.


    There should be a railway strategy, based on potential useage, not based on what was grand over a century ago. Even the 1920s railway map had huge gaps in the network; Look at that, and the current map of public transit and see where rail should be used to improve it.

    And if it's too hard to justify railways, we should provide an alternative good asccessible public transit system anyway.


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    #2989
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    ezstreet5 wrote: »
    What "list of projects to be funded" are you talking about?

    Project Ireland 2040.


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    #2990
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I don't understand how Tuam has become the focus of this discussion as it is only an intermediate station on the route the same as Ballyglunin - bigger but an intermediate stop nonetheless. The route is Limerick/Claremorris with all that that entails e.g. onward connections to and from places like Westport, Castlebar and Ballina. The Western Rail Corridor not the Athenry/Tuam shuttle.

    Because there is a lack of ambition and vision. This thread, and most of the recent decisions around the WRC, is made up of dug in deep fanatics, self-interests and nostalgics (I include myself). Bull McCabes and Yanks. The widow will get her fifty pound but the cattle will get driven into the sea. Entropy will have the field.


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    #2991
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    I don't understand how Tuam has become the focus of this discussion as it is only an intermediate station on the route the same as Ballyglunin - bigger but an intermediate stop nonetheless. The route is Limerick/Claremorris with all that that entails e.g. onward connections to and from places like Westport, Castlebar and Ballina. The Western Rail Corridor not the Athenry/Tuam shuttle.

    Phase 2 is from Athenry to Tuam, Phase 3 to Claremorris. If anything is to happen, it will be Phase 2, doing Phase 3 first and leaving a gap wouldn't make a lot of sense.

    Those onward connects will be via interchange with other trains. There isn't capacity for services from WRC Phase 2/3 on the existing lines. This was my point, we need to invest in upgrading the existing network first. Spending €150m reopening Tuam - Claremorris to connect into at capacity single track lines is putting the cart before the horse. That money would be better spent on the existing network first.


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    #2992
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Government funding is one thing but development partners as facilitated by Local Authorities in Galway has been focused on individuals driving rather than effective public transport.

    Of course - motoring contributes €6.2Bn to the exchequer every year, and the LA's want their slice of it. It's all down to money.

    That and they can make all the developers do the heavy lifting and funding: e.g making school projects include for road, footpath and public lighting upgrades to get there. And a school is a very civic amenity. Ditto for housing: make developers provide all the roads, services and public housing (at their expense) - LA's want all the benefits and none of the costs - and to do none of the work.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #2993
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Whatever happened to that rail report then? Just wondering.


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    #2994
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    westtip wrote: »
    Whatever happened to that rail report then? Just wondering.

    Nothing new from the following PQ asked in the Dáil yesterday:

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-06-09/583/?highlight%5B0%5D=western&highlight%5B1%5D=rail&highlight%5B2%5D=corridor


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    #2995
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    ezstreet5 wrote: »
    Nothing new from the following PQ asked in the Dáil yesterday:

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-06-09/583/?highlight%5B0%5D=western&highlight%5B1%5D=rail&highlight%5B2%5D=corridor

    That's from a month ago, when the Minister for Stepaside was very clearly intent on passing the buck to the incoming Govt.


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    #2996
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    blackwhite wrote: »
    That's from a month ago, when the Minister for Stepaside was very clearly intent on passing the buck to the incoming Govt.

    Sorry, you are correct. There was a more recent question asked by Marian Harkin:

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-06-30/664/?highlight%5B0%5D=rail&highlight%5B1%5D=western&highlight%5B2%5D=rail&highlight%5B3%5D=corridor#pq-answers-664


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    #2997
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    blackwhite wrote: »
    That's from a month ago, when the Minister for Stepaside was very clearly intent on passing the buck to the incoming Govt.

    Both Ciaran Cannon and Marian Harkin have had written PQ's answered from the new lad - but no shmoke yet.


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    #2998
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Both Ciaran Cannon and Marian Harkin have had written PQ's answered from the new lad - but no shmoke yet.

    In all fairness, he'll want to read it carefully himself. He also has a right to seek specific clarifications from both the authors and Irish Rail. As soon as it's published he'll be pinned to the wall looking for his next move, so I think we'll be waiting a while.


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    #2999
    ezstreet5
    Registered Users Posts: 356 ✭✭ezstreet5


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    In all fairness, he'll want to read it carefully himself. He also has a right to seek specific clarifications from both the authors and Irish Rail. As soon as it's published he'll be pinned to the wall looking for his next move, so I think we'll be waiting a while.

    There was also the following related question asked by Sean Canney. I did not immediately spot any questions asked by Ciarán Cannon.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-07-07/110/?highlight%5B0%5D=ten&highlight%5B1%5D=t&highlight%5B2%5D=maps


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    #3000
    Muckyboots
    Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    ezstreet5 wrote: »
    There was also the following related question asked by Sean Canney. I did not immediately spot any questions asked by Ciarán Cannon.

    https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-07-07/110/?highlight%5B0%5D=ten&highlight%5B1%5D=t&highlight%5B2%5D=maps

    Ciaran's question https://www.facebook.com/groups/213079802087801/permalink/3430912553637827/

    The Minister could deflect until November when the Ten-T consultations are expected to be completed? God help us!


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    #3001
    River Suir
    Closed Accounts Posts: 71 ✭✭River Suir


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Ciaran's question https://www.facebook.com/groups/213079802087801/permalink/3430912553637827/

    The Minister could deflect until November when the Ten-T consultations are expected to be completed? God help us!

    I would expect there to be no movement until the Ten-T consultations are complete. And the report will no doubt be ready when its ready. You wouldn't pull a half baked loaf of bread out of the oven so to speak.


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