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Bus Éireann to close 5 Expressway Routes
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And on top of that they could have used smaller buses as needed. Made no sense 4 people on a 50 seater for 90 kms0
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soundman45 wrote: »BE pay a composite rate, ie no Sunday premiums, flat hourly rate regardless of day, totally different structure to Dublin Bus.
BE also have an extremely high rate of staff turnover of drivers and is certainly not the dream job many think it to be.
Perhaps this explains why so many BE bus drivers could do with a refresher course in customer services. Many are unbelievably ignorant and buses are in a poor state. I was told they were incredibly well remunerated and often wondered why they seemed so grumpy. I compare this with UK operator National Express where drivers very helpful and actually help you with luggage and fares cheaper.
The unions should be got rid of.
I could never understand why CIE group didnt adopt Ryanair pricing model and sell cheap seats at off peak times to fill buses and trains and increase revenue. Also the BE website is difficult to navigate. I think the CIE group of companies are poorly managed and have been in financial difficulties for a very long time.0 -
Perhaps this explains why so many BE bus drivers could do with a refresher course in customer services. Many are unbelievably ignorant and buses are in a poor state. I was told they were incredibly well remunerated and often wondered why they seemed so grumpy. I compare this with UK operator National Express where drivers very helpful and actually help you with luggage and fares cheaper.
I could never understand why CIE group didnt adopt Ryanair pricing model and sell cheap seats at off peak times to fill buses.
Bad apples exist in every company public or private I've experienced rude drivers on private operators as well as public operators. Buses being in a poor state is the company's fault not the drivers and yes I agree that's unacceptable if it's true.
The drivers job is to drive the bus not help passengers with luggage if BE want to drivers help people with luggage then they should compensate drivers for it as it is an extra responsibility.0 -
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Bad apples exist in every company public or private I've experienced rude drivers on private operators as well as public operators. Buses being in a poor state is the company's fault not the drivers and yes I agree that's unacceptable if it's true.
The drivers job is to drive the bus not help passengers with luggage if BE want to drivers help people with luggage then they should compensate drivers for it as it is an extra responsibility.
I have seen multiple examples of poor customer service from BE drivers both Exprssway and City services. There is a problem. It would not be acceptable in many private operators. It seems BE is so highly unionised and I am assuming it's a far more secure job with BE than with a private operator.
Is it true BE drivers are highly remunerated?0 -
Story I heard is that before the private operators came alone, they pushed the line that no-one wanted to travel intercity after 6pm.jetfiremuck wrote: »Look Expressway inter city had the whole thing to themselves for years. They did shag all when it was opened up to private operators even attempting to compete. FFs how long did it take to put a jax in them ffs0 -
What sort of nonsense is that. Workers have a constitutional right to join a union. It is impossible to get rid of unions.
The likes of Michael O Leary should run the CIE group and refuse to engage with unions. Look at the dire financial state of the group which pre-dates covid. It may have to close entirely if its precarious financial position continues.0 -
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StreetLight wrote: »Why would he do that, when he is engaged with the unions in the airline industry?
He should do a Thatcher on it and refuse to engage.0 -
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When people start saying Michael O'Leary should run xyz I just stop listening.0
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The likes of Michael O Leary should run the CIE group and refuse to engage with unions. Look at the dire financial state of the group which pre-dates covid. It may have to close entirely if its precarious financial position continues.
Why? Ryanair run purely commercial routes and don't operate anything PSO. Staff turnover would go through the roof and service will deteriorate as a result.0 -
The unions should be got rid of.
so how do you think that would happen exactly?
clue, it's not possible as the union is the staff.I have seen multiple examples of poor customer service from BE drivers both Exprssway and City services. There is a problem. It would not be acceptable in many private operators. It seems BE is so highly unionised and I am assuming it's a far more secure job with BE than with a private operator.
Is it true BE drivers are highly remunerated?
be isn't highly unionised but has the same level of union activity as any other unionised transport company.
be drivers are decently payed, yes .
any of the issues with be are down to management, unions can't do anything to stop management disciplining staff who do not operate to the terms of their employment.The likes of Michael O Leary should run the CIE group and refuse to engage with unions. Look at the dire financial state of the group which pre-dates covid. It may have to close entirely if its precarious financial position continues.
Michael O Leary started engaging with unions a few years ago now.
anyway, there is nothing he could do to change the fact that a company who mostly runs non-financially viable but socially necessary routes will be loss making.He should do a Thatcher on it and refuse to engage.
thatcher had to engage with unions in the end, the transport unions ironically enough.I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.
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Wonder if there are some wintry smiles at IE given that the X51 came into being a mere four months after the Ennis-Athenry railway returned to passenger service0
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Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Another article and some interesting tidbits:
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0929/1168142-ryan-bus-cut/He said that Bus Éireann's board had made the decision to manage resources by pulling out of four routes and consolidating 14 routes.
We know about the 4 routes they are pulling out of, but that leaves another 14 routes impacted we have yet to hear about.
I'd be a bit more worried about those other 14 routes, then the 4 routes that already have competitors.He said other operators are on the routes they have pulled out of and the Government support for Bus Éireann and other public transport operators will not preclude it supporting other services who need licenses.
With Aircoach, GoBus, Dublin Coach and Citylink all having operations in both Cork and Dublin. I can't see at least one of them not jumping at the x8 license. I'd also expect JJ Kavangh and Citylink to expand their routes as things pick up.
But some good news too for BE:He said that the company is committed to expanding and has plans to introduce new services in Galway, Limerick, Cork, Navan and parts of Meath as well as to hire more drivers.0 -
No harm to lose some of the dinosours in Bus Eireann.
Fresh blood might improve their reputation.
And those "dinosaurs" would have to be given redundancy packages plus the the cost of training up new staff. It makes more sense to keep the current staff.I don't think anyone would notice if the service deteriorates further.
And you can blame that on the government for not giving the right amount of investment in the service for the poor service. The only way to improve public transport is to invest in it.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22580
And you can blame that on the government for not giving the right amount of investment in the service for the poor service. The only way to improve public transport is to invest in it.
But that isn't the case for these services. We are talking about Expressway here, the commercial arm of BE.
They are no different then any other commercial company. That means they don't get any investment from the government. If they want to improve services, then they go get business loans from a bank just like any of the other commercial operators.
And if anything they have an advantage over the others, being a semi-state I'm sure they could get loans more easily and at better rates.
Over the past 15 years we have seen the commercial operators invest 10's of millions in improving their services. New routes, more departures, new coaches, wifi, toilets, modern ticketing, etc.
In the same period we saw very little in the way of investment or innovation from BE. No new routes, little in the way of improvements in schedules, dragging their feet on innovations like toilets, wifi, etc.
Frankly BE's issues go much deeper. The old excuse of the government didn't give us enough money is an excuse used by poorly run and managed companies IME.0 -
But none of them pay as well as state owned operatorsWhich one? It's not only basic pay there's other benefits too mind you with CIE companies like pensions, sick pay, overtime rates and sunday premium, free GP etc.
So on one hand you're saying that the state operators pay better and have benefits such as pensions, sick pay, overtime rates and sunday premium, free GP etc and you are lauding them for this,.....And you can blame that on the government for not giving the right amount of investment in the service for the poor service. The only way to improve public transport is to invest in it.
....but on the other hand you complain that they do not have enough money in which to fund their daily operations, without recognising that there might be a connection.
You appear to be suggesting that when it comes to a choice to giving the staff the things you mention or funding the operations of a quality public transport service, that the company has chosen to spend it's money on staff rather than spend the money on the services they are paid to provide.
Any company in any industry who is paying it's staff over market rate and is also offering them more perks than the rest of the market, that then says they do not have enough money to actually spend on it's day to day operations needs to examine how they are spending their money.
The problem with CIE companies is that if the companies were given even more investment is that a lot of that money sloshing around would end up in employees back pockets rather than being used to improve services. You can be sure that the unions would want a slice of that pie and already their wages and perks are way above the market rate.
The other ironic thing is when you see the left and certain union figures come out with the usual soundbites, often they mention how Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have a modern fleet and was way ahead of the game in relation to converting to a fully wheelchair accessible fleet. With the next breath they state that there has been a 'lack of investment' which is a massive contradiction.
It's a simple equation really, the more you spend on staff and wages, the less you have to spend on the service itself. The problem with BE has always seemed to be that the balance between how much is spent on staff terms and conditions and how much is spent on the service is wrong.0 -
How is this a costly mistake?!
As I detailed above, most of these routes already have other companies serving them, so they won't need much in the way of any extra PSO subsidy or services to serve them.
The only one that doesn't have service is some of the towns on the X8. And frankly if I was the NTA I'd just offer a license to Aircoach/Gobus or any other company who might want the route. I suspect it is a busy enough route that some one will be willing to make a go at it, even without PSO money.
The private operators increased capacity on our intercity routes 5 to 6 fold and did it at zero cost to the taxpayer. It has been a major win both for the taxpayer and the users of these services.
I don't see the benefit in allowing private operators to come in and pick the low lying fruit while the tax payer covers the costly parts. BE services wouldn't need to be PSO routes if the NTA limited the number of non stop services on a route.
There is also the huge reduction in capacity and frequency of services should BE exit the markets. Private operators will be very selective of what additional, if any, capacity/frequency they will want to include. Again it doesn't take much for a private operator to withdraw services like we've seen during covid. A large percentage of their business relies on airport passengers. I think we'll see a considerable amount of scaling back of their services also until air travel picks back up.
The more revenue earning services BE lose out on the more costly operating costs become for them which results in other PSO routes becoming more costly. I can't see any benefit in shrinking or limiting BE routes.0 -
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As we've seen with Bus Eireann strikes, they don't hang around to act as a "service to the community" when time comes to try line their own pockets with unjustifiable pay claims.
Nothing to prevent other companies going on strike either. Luas (private operator) would be a good example.0 -
I don't want to go down an endless private v public rabbit hole but; The privateers got out as soon as covid hit and the fares dried up. BE kept their show on the road on a reduced schedule through emergency funding. Now the funding is stopping and BE are getting out too. So what's the difference?
It wasn't done on a route by route basis.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22580
I don't see the benefit in allowing private operators to come in and pick the low lying fruit while the tax payer covers the costly parts. BE services wouldn't need to be PSO routes if the NTA limited the number of non stop services on a route.
I'm sorry but that is a nonsense argument. Again these are Expressway routes. They are run on a commercial basis, no different then any other commercial operator.
Money from these Expressway routes don't subsidise PSO services. BE are supposed to keep them as completely separate operations, with separation of accounting, etc.
As a commercial operator BE were entitled to go for the direct, non-stop route licenses and invest in those new routes, the same as any other operator. But instead they sat around, did nothing and left more innovative companies come in.
BTW are you really suggesting that after the government spent 10 billion building the new motorways, that they should have refused to issue any direct licenses, despite the obvious massive demand for it, just because it would impact BE's slow, indirect routes?!
That would have been insane!
The reality is once the motorways were built, there was always going to be new direct routes started up to use those motorways, that could never have been avoided. Public demand for them was too strong. And once started, they were obviously going to impact the now less popular stopping service.
BE had the opportunity to go for those same direct licenses, but they never showed any interest in them.
Though I'd point out Citylink, JJ Kavangh and DC all operate stopping services too and in some cases right beside their direct non stop services. So clearly such services can work, it is just that BE are a very inefficient, top heavy, operator and they don't seem to be able to make more marginal routes work.0 -
Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22580
I don't see the benefit in allowing private operators to come in and pick the low lying fruit while the tax payer covers the costly parts. BE services wouldn't need to be PSO routes if the NTA limited the number of non stop services on a route.
And to be clear about this. Of the 5 routes BE are pulling out of. 4 of them already have an alternative operator, so there will be no PSO costs at all related to these 4 routes.
The 5th, the x8 is the only one with no alternative, but as I mentioned earlier, I'd suspect one of the 4 private operators in Cork will probably be very interested in taking it over, even without PSO subsidy.
So really I don't see any extra PSO costs coming out of this change.0 -
But that isn't the case for these services. We are talking about Expressway here, the commercial arm of BE.
They are no different then any other commercial company. That means they don't get any investment from the government. If they want to improve services, then they go get business loans from a bank just like any of the other commercial operators.
And if anything they have an advantage over the others, being a semi-state I'm sure they could get loans more easily and at better rates.
Over the past 15 years we have seen the commercial operators invest 10's of millions in improving their services. New routes, more departures, new coaches, wifi, toilets, modern ticketing, etc.
In the same period we saw very little in the way of investment or innovation from BE. No new routes, little in the way of improvements in schedules, dragging their feet on innovations like toilets, wifi, etc.
Frankly BE's issues go much deeper. The old excuse of the government didn't give us enough money is an excuse used by poorly run and managed companies IME.
I was responding to a post which more seemed to give a general viewpoint on Bus Eireann rather than one that is specifically talking about Expressway services. Remember BE provide both commercial and PSO services it isn't just commercial services they are providing.
There has been a lack of investment in Bus Eireann services. With PSO services the blame falls on the government and with Expressway services the blame falls on Bus Eireann themselves. However that's not taking from the point that some Expressway routes should really be PSO services due to a lack of alternatives. That's where there's an issue with a lack of investment.
The issue is more so that on some Expressway routes BE have to go it alone and lose money when really there should be government support. This not just an issue with Expressway but also some other private operators.0 -
There has been a lack of investment in Bus Eireann services. With PSO services the blame falls on the government and with Expressway services the blame falls on Bus Eireann themselves. However that's not taking from the point that some Expressway routes should really be PSO services due to a lack of alternatives. That's where there's an issue with a lack of investment.
You claim there hasn't been enough investment in Bus Eireann but at the same time you state that Bus Eireann and other state companies offer better terms, conditions and perks than other operators, all of which doesn't come cheap. A normal, functioning healthy business in any industry does not spend so much money on wages at the expense of being unable to properly conduct their everyday operations.
Also as stated previously, the unions have been on record as stating that Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus were way ahead of the game when it comes to having a wheelchair accessible fleet. I assume that you disagree with the unions stance on this, because no company lacking in investment could hope to have such a modern fleet as to have such a modern fleet it would require heavy investment.
Also the Government and the NTA cannot license a PSO service to compete with a commercial service as to do so would breach both the conditions under which commercial licenses were issued as well as being considered as a breach of state aid since the government would be funding competition against a commercial enterprise which is not allowed under EU law. All they can do is license PSO routes where this is not the case, which will obviously apply to some areas when the commercial routes no longer exist, but until then, they cannot do anything.
The simple fact is if Bus Eireann received a 20% investment increase tomorrow you can be sure that the NBRU and SIPTU would want a piece of that pie and would not accept not getting a slice of that pie. If they did not get it they would strike. We've all heard the noises about not having a pay rise in x years that come up every no and then, for workers who are already paid a very generous wage, especially those at the top of their grades. You'd then have people a year or two later claiming the company is underfunded again and the cycle will repeat.0 -
So on one hand you're saying that the state operators pay better and have benefits such as pensions, sick pay, overtime rates and sunday premium, free GP etc and you are lauding them for this,.....
....but on the other hand you complain that they do not have enough money in which to fund their daily operations, without recognising that there might be a connection.
You appear to be suggesting that when it comes to a choice to giving the staff the things you mention or funding the operations of a quality public transport service, that the company has chosen to spend it's money on staff rather than spend the money on the services they are paid to provide.
Any company in any industry who is paying it's staff over market rate and is also offering them more perks than the rest of the market, that then says they do not have enough money to actually spend on it's day to day operations needs to examine how they are spending their money.
The problem with CIE companies is that if the companies were given even more investment is that a lot of that money sloshing around would end up in employees back pockets rather than being used to improve services. You can be sure that the unions would want a slice of that pie and already their wages and perks are way above the market rate.
The other ironic thing is when you see the left and certain union figures come out with the usual soundbites, often they mention how Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann have a modern fleet and was way ahead of the game in relation to converting to a fully wheelchair accessible fleet. With the next breath they state that there has been a 'lack of investment' which is a massive contradiction.
It's a simple equation really, the more you spend on staff and wages, the less you have to spend on the service itself. The problem with BE has always seemed to be that the balance between how much is spent on staff terms and conditions and how much is spent on the service is wrong.
The drivers are not highly paid in most cases they get a fair days wage for a fair days work. Other operators have much more of an issue with staff retention than Bus Eireann. If BE were to pay their staff less and give less benefits then staff turnover would go up meaning the money they save by paying staff less would have to be spent on recruitment and training.
Do you have evidence that CIE companies are giving money to staff ahead of investing in services. Especially now that on PSO services the NTA give operators money and in return certain minimum standards have to be met.
There are problems with under investment on BE services look at the issues with service cancellations on Dublin commuter routes. There is obivously an issue with poor management in Bus Eireann and that's not to do with unions or the like as the same issues do not exist to the same extent with Dublin Bus services.
In general Dublin Bus appear to provide services to a higher standard than Bus Eireann. DB have less issues with unreliability, don't have to replace services with hire ins, buses generally seem to be in a better shape than BE buses and better RTPI.0 -
I don't see the benefit in allowing private operators to come in and pick the low lying fruit while the tax payer covers the costly parts. BE services wouldn't need to be PSO routes if the NTA limited the number of non stop services on a route.
There is also the huge reduction in capacity and frequency of services should BE exit the markets. Private operators will be very selective of what additional, if any, capacity/frequency they will want to include. Again it doesn't take much for a private operator to withdraw services like we've seen during covid. A large percentage of their business relies on airport passengers. I think we'll see a considerable amount of scaling back of their services also until air travel picks back up.
The more revenue earning services BE lose out on the more costly operating costs become for them which results in other PSO routes becoming more costly. I can't see any benefit in shrinking or limiting BE routes.
At the end of the day it really boils down to what you care about, some people are more interested in the survival and future of one company, whilst others are more interested in the greater good of public transport overall. I've always been in the later camp because personally I don't care about history, nostalgia or any one particular company, I've always been about the service offered to the public and that will always remain the case.
Nobody can deny that whilst the non stop services have had some effect on the services that have called in the smaller towns and villages on the way, the number of people who have been inconvenienced by this has been very small compared to the number who have benefitted from them. Also Bus Eireann themselves played down the demand for these services. If they had better management 10 years ago, maybe they would be the ones operating such services now, but because their poor management structure at the time, full of career CIE staff with no commercial experience, they missed the boat. BE management get a lot of bad press, but the current bunch I have to say are far more commercially aware and I give credit to them for that.
Saying Bus Eireann are suffering because of the non stop services and therefore they should be scrapped is simply sour grapes, nothing else. It's effectively saying that because something isn't in the interests of Bus Eireann, then hundreds if not thousands of people should lose out by having their journeys extended just to please Bus Eireann. Anyone who doesn't see a problem with that, really doesn't have the interests of public transport users at heart, since no company, no matter who they are should come before the greater good.
Does that mean that we should abandon the people in Towns? Absolutely not but the only reason these services have ever been sustainable before the non stop services is because the end to end passengers have made the services pay and provided the volume that has allowed the intermediate small towns and villages to be served. What is needed is the government and the NTA to step up and provide proper services for these small Towns that reflect the demand from these smaller places. It should not be something that Bus Eireann is having to fund itself like it has been doing, this is wrong and I have always stated that.
Personally though, I can't imagine these things will come to pass. Until their is a vaccine demand for all commercial bus services, whether public or private, is going to be deflated and I can see all of them will be on government support until the loadings pick up similar to what they were pre-covid. The Government and the NTA will have to treat all operators the same or face claims of illegal state aid from others and I firmly believe that this whole exercise from Bus Eireann is simply political posturing, especially when there is a budget just around the corner. If the government do not support the commercial bus sector further than the unions need to kick up a fuss and I would fully support that.0 -
The drivers are not highly paid in most cases they get a fair days wage for a fair days work. Other operators have much more of an issue with staff retention than Bus Eireann. If BE were to pay their staff less and give less benefits then staff turnover would go up meaning the money they save by paying staff less would have to be spent on recruitment and training.
Where would these staff go to? If they are career or long serving bus drivers and Bus Eireann are paying the most and they tone down the packages so BE were still offering the best package but less than they are now, then they are not going to get a better paid job elsewhere? I assume you would suggest that they would leave the industry?
I know of plenty of privates who pay less than Bus Eireann (but still well above minimum wage) who have no real problems holding onto staff. If BE were still offering a better package and a better work environment and higher pay, then surely they would have an even better chance of holding onto their staff than the companies who pay less who have no real staff turnover problem?Do you have evidence that CIE companies are giving money to staff ahead of investing in services. Especially now that on PSO services the NTA give operators money and in return certain minimum standards have to be met.
If any business in a commercial environment in any industry is unable to fund daily operations then it needs to take a look at it's spending and compare that to other companies in the same industry and see if it is overspending anywhere. This is basic business finance management and is nothing like rocket science.
By your own admission Bus Eireann are able to pay their staff higher wages and give them vastly more perks than anyone else yet according to you they cannot afford to run their services properly. For every single cent on staff costs, that is a cent less to be spend on other areas of the business so of course staff costs come into how much investment they need, it's basic economics.
If you look across the CIE companies and their accounts, the one cost that looks completely out of whack with their competitors is staffing costs. The higher your staff costs, the bigger chunk of your income that goes on them, which reduces the money for everything else, which means that you require extra investment to cover the shortfall.
As I said though a lot of the discussion on this topic is going to be moot anyway, because the whole thing is almost certainly political posturing ahead of the budget. That's why they're talking about withdrawing the services when the government support runs out. If it wasn't about political posturing they'd be withdrawing them already or have waited until much nearer the time.0 -
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Where would these staff go to? If they are career or long serving bus drivers and Bus Eireann are paying the most and they tone down the packages so BE were still offering the best package but less than they are now, then they are not going to get a better paid job elsewhere? I assume you would suggest that they would leave the industry?
I know of plenty of privates who pay less than Bus Eireann (but still well above minimum wage) who have no real problems holding onto staff. If BE were still offering a better package and a better work environment and higher pay, then surely they would have an even better chance of holding onto their staff than the companies who pay less who have no real staff turnover problem?
But many drivers leave the private operators to join the likes of BE and DB or even the better paying private operators with better conditions. Also many drivers do leave the industry aswell. It is well known across the transport industry as a whole that there is a shortage of drivers across the board that's in both the bus and truck industry and that includes CIE companies.
That can be put down a number of issues such as long hours, the costs assoicated with training and poor conditions. Some companies are better than others at recruiting and retaining staff.If any business in a commercial environment in any industry is unable to fund daily operations then it needs to take a look at it's spending and compare that to other companies in the same industry and see if it is overspending anywhere. This is basic business finance management and is nothing like rocket science.
By your own admission Bus Eireann are able to pay their staff higher wages and give them vastly more perks than anyone else yet according to you they cannot afford to run their services properly. For every single cent on staff costs, that is a cent less to be spend on other areas of the business so of course staff costs come into how much investment they need, it's basic economics.
If you look across the CIE companies and their accounts, the one cost that looks completely out of whack with their competitors is staffing costs. The higher your staff costs, the bigger chunk of your income that goes on them, which reduces the money for everything else, which means that you require extra investment to cover the shortfall.
As I said though a lot of the discussion on this topic is going to be moot anyway, because the whole thing is almost certainly political posturing ahead of the budget. That's why they're talking about withdrawing the services when the government support runs out. If it wasn't about political posturing they'd be withdrawing them already or have waited until much nearer the time.
You have to take other things in to consideration some companies can get away with having high staff turnover but others less so. Bus Eireann have a different business model than most private operators as they are providing PSO services in which they can be fined for not operating. Other operators don't have this issue to the same extent.0 -
I'm sorry but that is a nonsense argument. Again these are Expressway routes. They are run on a commercial basis, no different then any other commercial operator.
Money from these Expressway routes don't subsidise PSO services. BE are supposed to keep them as completely separate operations, with separation of accounting, etc.
As a commercial operator BE were entitled to go for the direct, non-stop route licenses and invest in those new routes, the same as any other operator. But instead they sat around, did nothing and left more innovative companies come in.
BTW are you really suggesting that after the government spent 10 billion building the new motorways, that they should have refused to issue any direct licenses, despite the obvious massive demand for it, just because it would impact BE's slow, indirect routes?!
That would have been insane!
The reality is once the motorways were built, there was always going to be new direct routes started up to use those motorways, that could never have been avoided. Public demand for them was too strong. And once started, they were obviously going to impact the now less popular stopping service.
BE had the opportunity to go for those same direct licenses, but they never showed any interest in them.
Though I'd point out Citylink, JJ Kavangh and DC all operate stopping services too and in some cases right beside their direct non stop services. So clearly such services can work, it is just that BE are a very inefficient, top heavy, operator and they don't seem to be able to make more marginal routes work.
Nothing nonsensical about it. Why should the state allow a private come in and take all the profits while leaving the costly scraps for the state to worry about. Its exactly the same thing we done with the NBP. Sell or kill off all the state assets and pay a fortune at a later date restoring them or to private operator.
Do you honestly believe BE as a semi state operator would of been allowed to freely cull services to introduce non stop services without political or public outrage?
As I said before, the issue is not about who runs the service but rather the type of service been allowed to run.
I'm not against non stop services but there needs to be a balance. Allowing non stop services to freely compete against stopping services is ridiculous. Should Irish Rail be allowed bring in their own separate non stop Dublin - Cork trains and scale back the current service or maybe Dublin Bus run all their Swords/North Dublin services via the port tunnel.0 -
And to be clear about this. Of the 5 routes BE are pulling out of. 4 of them already have an alternative operator, so there will be no PSO costs at all related to these 4 routes.
The 5th, the x8 is the only one with no alternative, but as I mentioned earlier, I'd suspect one of the 4 private operators in Cork will probably be very interested in taking it over, even without PSO subsidy.
So really I don't see any extra PSO costs coming out of this change.
Oh the private operators are going to take on and cover all the services BE are dropping.0 -
You have to take other things in to consideration some companies can get away with having high staff turnover but others less so. Bus Eireann have a different business model than most private operators as they are providing PSO services in which they can be fined for not operating. Other operators don't have this issue to the same extent.
Which would suggest that Bus Eireann are trying to be a bit of a hybrid company and it might be worth the DB and BE commercial services being spun off into a new commercial arm of CIE with it's own infrastructure etc in much the same way that DB and BE are seperate companies.
This would also help non regular bus users who do not know what the difference is between commercial services that are operated by Bus Eireann and the PSO services that are operated by them, because whilst the majority of frequent posts on this forum may know, your average person on the street may not.
On the other hand Bus Eireann having a PSO side has probably been a big part in why the Expressway services kept running during COVID-19. If you've already got a depot open for the maintenance of PSO vehicles and PSO staff, running commercial vehicles out of that same depot is cheaper rather than than having to open the depot just for those routes.0 -
Do you honestly believe BE as a semi state operator would of been allowed to freely cull services to introduce non stop services without political or public outrage?
Much of this comes down to the fact that Bus Eireann is seen as one company by much of the population, rather than a commercial and a PSO division. There is a lack of understanding of the differences between these two types of operation with the public at large and whilst many of us who post here will know the differences, your average bus user is unlikely to. I think that certainly plays into this. The public may well be outraged and the politicians too, but there is nothing in the licensing law that stops BE from taking commercial decisions of that kind.
But Bus Eireann's commercial services should be treated the same as any other providers commercial service. There should be no fear or favour either way. One of the biggest problems is that BE management generally have shrieked away from the big decisions when they needed to be made and have ran their commercial arm with too much consideration for the people who will lose out from running it like a commercial business. It's quite commendable that BE have done this, but in a cold, hard marketplace you need to be ruthless and ignore the protestors and get on with it.I'm not against non stop services but there needs to be a balance. Allowing non stop services to freely compete against stopping services is ridiculous. Should Irish Rail be allowed bring in their own separate non stop Dublin - Cork trains and scale back the current service or maybe Dublin Bus run all their Swords/North Dublin services via the port tunnel.
That's a massive red-herring and completely irrelevant to the discussion here and it is highly misleading to bring such invalid arguments into this debate. All Irish Rail services are PSO services, all Dublin Bus regular services are PSO routes and Bus Eireann Expressway routes are commercial ventures, So I'm afraid your point pretty much holds no water at all here.
The thing is that if there was enough demand through the towns for a regular service as they have now, we would not be having the discussion that we are today as the routes would not be under threat. The simple fact was that the services through the small towns was only ever viable because the huge number of passengers who were going end to end were contributing the vast majority of fare revenue for those services that made what would otherwise would need to be a PSO service, commercially viable.
It is clear that there are probably even up to 10x more people going end to end on some city to city flows than are going through the towns and forcing large numbers of people to go through the towns for a vastly smaller number of people to be accommodated is pretty ridiculous and sounds like a desperate attempt to help Bus Eireann and a comparatively small number of people whilst disadvantaging a greater number of people all in the name of ideology.
What really needs to happen is that these towns need to have a local service or a PSO service that meets both local needs and is sufficient for level of demand that there is from these towns. The Localink project is a very good one and if these services are done right, they could add extra stops in some of the larger towns, that would also allow them to act as town services as well as connecting to the longer distance services. Many larger towns in Ireland could benefit from these services to local hospitals etc, where there are no other options right now.
But also there needs to be a realisation that if a bus is running between two big cities and stopping at a small village half-way, the village cannot expect to have exactly the same level of services as between the two cities. If you live in a rural area you should not expect the same services as in a big city. This is a trade off that you take from living in the countryside. You cannot have your cake and eat it. But as I said, at the same time, these places need services and leaving them abandoned is simply not acceptable, but there has to also be a realistic debate over what level of service these places require. Initiatives such as multiple stops in some Towns on new PSO service sto generate extra traffic also should be looked at.
And lastly, if these cuts do go ahead, which I have serious doubts about, the first thing that Bus Eireann needs to do, along with the unions and the communities in these areas is to ensure they lobby the Government and theNTA to make sure that they are not cut off and there are replacement PSO services. I will happily join NBRU and SIPTU on the protest march front and centre if this does not happen because totally abandoning people is not acceptable and we must never accept it.0 -
Which would suggest that Bus Eireann are trying to be a bit of a hybrid company and it might be worth the DB and BE commercial services being spun off into a new commercial arm of CIE with it's own infrastructure etc in much the same way that DB and BE are seperate companies.
This would also help non regular bus users who do not know what the difference is between commercial services that are operated by Bus Eireann and the PSO services that are operated by them, because whilst the majority of frequent posts on this forum may know, your average person on the street may not.
On the other hand Bus Eireann having a PSO side has probably been a big part in why the Expressway services kept running during COVID-19. If you've already got a depot open for the maintenance of PSO vehicles and PSO staff, running commercial vehicles out of that same depot is cheaper rather than than having to open the depot just for those routes.
I agree however the thing is that Expressway services as a separate distinction from PSO Bus Eireann services is only afaik a relatively recent development and in the past BE would have gotten a subsidy which included all services including Expressway.
I agree that Expressway should be spun off separately but consideration would have to given to the fact that alternative PSO services may have to provided in order to fill in gap left by Expressway services like the way M+A coaches were contracted to operate route 828 PSO to replace Bus Eireann's route 8.
The other about Expressway services is that as BE are a state owned company there is politics at play aswell as pure commercial motives. If BE were to break off the Expressway element as separate entity. The new entity would likely be commercial driven meaning it could be more likely to go out of business entirely or be changed majorly and likely sold off.
Political reasons is also likely the reason as to why Expressway continued to operate throughout lockdown but then again there were also some privates that kept going such as Matthews and Wexford Bus.
If say Expressway were to shut down in may cases alternarive PSO services would have to provided likely in the form of a more local based connecting a more rural area aith smaller towns and villages to the nearest large town where people can connect to trains and other bus services rather than having a direct Expressway service to Dublin. This would likely be unpopular as was bus connects as changing modes does not appear to go down well politcally as could be seen with bus connects in Dublin.0 -
Oh the private operators are going to take on and cover all the services BE are dropping.
But this comes back to the point, that these routes, despite being commercial routes, are serving all these small places where there is so little traffic that it is not commercially viable to do so and never has been. Instead this has been disguised by the fact the end to end traffic has kept them going for years which has made them commercially viable, but they are not on their own.
Many of these Expressway services were good routes when they were first established but they were operating in a time where the public transport landscape was very different, we did not have the motorways that we do now and we did not have so many people who were traveling city to city as often as they did now. This is just what modern Ireland is about.
Expecting Bus Eireann to run these services out of the kindness of their heart when they are losing money is folly and no business whoever they are should be expected to do that. If Bus Eireann does service official notice that they are looking to relinquish these licenses, then the NTA needs to fund an appropriate level of service for these towns because these Towns are exactly the kind of routes that a PSO fund should be supporting. Expecting a commercial operator to fund them itself is ridiculous and if (and that's a big IF) the government and NTA really think that they should then the Government and the NTA really are wrong and they should reconsider their views immediately.0 -
It’s fairly sad when the national bus carrier is cancelling routes between the big cities. The private operators all paying drivers minimum wage . We will be a nation of minimum wage employees soon . Everyone will need the government to provide housing for them as they’ll have no money to buy their own houses .
Yeap. Race to the bottom for that industry and many others in last few years. All businesses will suffer from that in the long run.0 -
I agree that Expressway should be spun off separately but consideration would have to given to the fact that alternative PSO services may have to provided in order to fill in gap left by Expressway services like the way M+A coaches were contracted to operate route 828 PSO to replace Bus Eireann's route 8.
But at the end of the day on some of these routes the argument is that the services are perhaps closing because they are not commercially viable due to the low number of passengers traveling through the towns. That in itself pretty much suggests that these routes should be the exact kind of routes that should be getting PSO funding, since servicing such places is exactly the whole idea behind having PSO bus services.The other about Expressway services is that as BE are a state owned company there is politics at play aswell as pure commercial motives. If BE were to break off the Expressway element as separate entity. The new entity would likely be commercial driven meaning it could be more likely to go out of business entirely or be changed majorly and likely sold off.
But this is the harsh realities of operating in a commercial environment. It comes back to what I've said previously, namely that at times it feels like Bus Eireann want the benefits of being a commercial company and also the benefits of being a PSO company to apply to it's overall business. You cannot have your cake and eat it, as the Brits are finding out with Brexit.Political reasons is also likely the reason as to why Expressway continued to operate throughout lockdown but then again there were also some privates that kept going such as Matthews and Wexford Bus.
At the end of the day since Bus Eireann depots and facilities were already open for PSO services it helps in relation to costs for running the commercial routes. If you have everything closed and you only have commercial routes, the cost of having things open is going to be fully weighed against the commercial operations as there re no other reasons to open the place up.If say Expressway were to shut down in may cases alternarive PSO services would have to provided likely in the form of a more local based connecting a more rural area aith smaller towns and villages to the nearest large town where people can connect to trains and other bus services rather than having a direct Expressway service to Dublin. This would likely be unpopular as was bus connects as changing modes does not appear to go down well politcally as could be seen with bus connects in Dublin.
Sure and I understand that, but as stated previously you cannot expect a small town with a couple of thousand people to have the same service as a city. I have family in rural Ireland, I love rural Ireland, but people have to accept that if you live in the middle of the countryside and you are not close to any city, you are not going to get the same service as a city does. You for sure deserve a service, and every town deserves a service where there is demand for such service but we also have to be realistic with what level of service that is.
Localink has been a tremendous success in most places that it operates. Using local link as a feeder to longer distance routes, perhaps even making those routes town also stop at places such as hospitals en-route, opening up journey opportunities that currently don't exist (there are so many smaller places in Ireland where people have to get a taxi to the other end of the Town or the nearest hospital because there is no public transport) is also something that I would be very fond of.0 -
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But at the end of the day on some of these routes the argument is that the services are perhaps closing because they are not commercially viable due to the low number of passengers traveling through the towns. That in itself pretty much suggests that these routes should be the exact kind of routes that should be getting PSO funding, since servicing such places is exactly the whole idea behind having PSO bus services.
Yes I would agree they absolutely should be getting PSO funding and many including the NBRU would make that point also.But this is the harsh realities of operating in a commercial environment. It comes back to what I've said previously, namely that at times it feels like Bus Eireann want the benefits of being a commercial company and also the benefits of being a PSO company to apply to it's overall business. You cannot have your cake and eat it, as the Brits are finding out with Brexit.
The same though could be said about many private operators too though as there are numerous operators across Ireland and Europe as well that operate both state funded and commercial services. In Ireland we see this with operators like JJ Kavanagh who operate purely commercial services and PSO routes. In the UK this would be even more common as many operators operate commercial services and services on behalf of the local council or TFL.Sure and I understand that, but as stated previously you cannot expect a small town with a couple of thousand people to have the same service as a city. I have family in rural Ireland, I love rural Ireland, but people have to accept that if you live in the middle of the countryside and you are not close to any city, you are not going to get the same service as a city does. You for sure deserve a service, and every town deserves a service where there is demand for such service but we also have to be realistic with what level of service that is.
Localink has been a tremendous success in most places that it operates. Using local link as a feeder to longer distance routes, perhaps even making those routes town also stop at places such as hospitals en-route, opening up journey opportunities that currently don't exist (there are so many smaller places in Ireland where people have to get a taxi to the other end of the Town or the nearest hospital because there is no public transport) is also something that I would be very fond of.
That is true and Eamonn Ryan has said that no area will be left behind. Local Link has been a good developemnt in recent and I'm pleased that it is growing and significant investment is being made in it.0 -
Bus Eireann are wanting to pull out of the x1 but want to keep there share of the money and let ulsterbus do all the work they have also refused to increase the service from the March timetable also they would not let ulsterbus put extra timetable service on the X10
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Why? Ryanair run purely commercial routes and don't operate anything PSO. Staff turnover would go through the roof and service will deteriorate as a result.
The service is poor as it is. Many drivers could do with a customer service refresher course, many routes have run down coaches running half empty. The staff costs in Bus Eireann are apparently high relative to other bus operators and this is affecting their services. Their costs, particularly staff costs, therefore should be tackled by the CIE group even if this results in higher staff turnover. How is it many private operators I have travelled with hire highly enthusiastic motivated drivers with excellent customer service skills yet are apparently on less favourable terms and conditions compared to BE and with a higher staff turnover compared to BE. BE should use smaller buses where less demand eg routes with a reduced service to Public Service obligation could be considered. The company should offer reduced priced seats to increase demand at off peak times where buses are running half empty. This has been sucessfully adopted by National Express in the UK. There seem to be a serious problem with management at BE. Are BE staff permanent? Dinosaurs was a apt term used by another poster to describe many drivers. If drives are so well remunerated I can not understand why so many of them seem so miserable.0 -
Much of this comes down to the fact that Bus Eireann is seen as one company by much of the population, rather than a commercial and a PSO division. There is a lack of understanding of the differences between these two types of operation with the public at large and whilst many of us who post here will know the differences, your average bus user is unlikely to. I think that certainly plays into this. The public may well be outraged and the politicians too, but there is nothing in the licensing law that stops BE from taking commercial decisions of that kind.
But Bus Eireann's commercial services should be treated the same as any other providers commercial service. There should be no fear or favour either way. One of the biggest problems is that BE management generally have shrieked away from the big decisions when they needed to be made and have ran their commercial arm with too much consideration for the people who will lose out from running it like a commercial business. It's quite commendable that BE have done this, but in a cold, hard marketplace you need to be ruthless and ignore the protestors and get on with it.
That's a massive red-herring and completely irrelevant to the discussion here and it is highly misleading to bring such invalid arguments into this debate. All Irish Rail services are PSO services, all Dublin Bus regular services are PSO routes and Bus Eireann Expressway routes are commercial ventures, So I'm afraid your point pretty much holds no water at all here.
The thing is that if there was enough demand through the towns for a regular service as they have now, we would not be having the discussion that we are today as the routes would not be under threat. The simple fact was that the services through the small towns was only ever viable because the huge number of passengers who were going end to end were contributing the vast majority of fare revenue for those services that made what would otherwise would need to be a PSO service, commercially viable.
It is clear that there are probably even up to 10x more people going end to end on some city to city flows than are going through the towns and forcing large numbers of people to go through the towns for a vastly smaller number of people to be accommodated is pretty ridiculous and sounds like a desperate attempt to help Bus Eireann and a comparatively small number of people whilst disadvantaging a greater number of people all in the name of ideology.
What really needs to happen is that these towns need to have a local service or a PSO service that meets both local needs and is sufficient for level of demand that there is from these towns. The Localink project is a very good one and if these services are done right, they could add extra stops in some of the larger towns, that would also allow them to act as town services as well as connecting to the longer distance services. Many larger towns in Ireland could benefit from these services to local hospitals etc, where there are no other options right now.
But also there needs to be a realisation that if a bus is running between two big cities and stopping at a small village half-way, the village cannot expect to have exactly the same level of services as between the two cities. If you live in a rural area you should not expect the same services as in a big city. This is a trade off that you take from living in the countryside. You cannot have your cake and eat it. But as I said, at the same time, these places need services and leaving them abandoned is simply not acceptable, but there has to also be a realistic debate over what level of service these places require. Initiatives such as multiple stops in some Towns on new PSO service sto generate extra traffic also should be looked at.
And lastly, if these cuts do go ahead, which I have serious doubts about, the first thing that Bus Eireann needs to do, along with the unions and the communities in these areas is to ensure they lobby the Government and theNTA to make sure that they are not cut off and there are replacement PSO services. I will happily join NBRU and SIPTU on the protest march front and centre if this does not happen because totally abandoning people is not acceptable and we must never accept it.
Well it's something that needs to be accepted. BE is viewed by the vast majority as the national bus company and I've no doubt if private operators where to pull out of such markets it would be widely expected that BE would just jump in and take over no questions asked. Ironically all the legislation and licensing laws would be thrown out the window by politicians, NTA and even the BE haters if such circumstances where to arise. Whether people like it or not BE is semi state and it's not going to go away nor is any government in their right mind going to let it go bust or collapse. It needs to be paid for and running bus routes is the cheapest way of running it.
I don't believe and I'm sure anyone on here genuinely doesn't believe that BE would've simply been allowed to move away from a "National provider" into a non stop intercity express service without major uproar and consequences. For example, the Galway route has an hourly departure, even moving half of these to a non stop service would of been unthinkable in political and public eyes.
I don't believe so, Dublin Bus effectively do this already with Airlink. I'm pretty sure the rail network is now set up in away to allow competition to enter. Of course IE would need purchase a separate fleet and pay a access charge.
I don't think it questionable that end to end passengers are the ones funding these buses, in fact its clearly obvious that they are. That doesn't render the route unprofitable. The routes via the towns along the way are commercially viable but heavily relies on the end to end passengers. BE were willing to serve these towns commercially but yet the NTA allowed the main source of income to evaporate into competitors who are ultimately allowed to cherry pick the valuable parts.
As I've said a simple restriction or compromise which requires private operators to run a balanced number of stopper and non stopper services should of been incorporated from the beginning. A equal playing field for all.0 -
But this comes back to the point, that these routes, despite being commercial routes, are serving all these small places where there is so little traffic that it is not commercially viable to do so and never has been. Instead this has been disguised by the fact the end to end traffic has kept them going for years which has made them commercially viable, but they are not on their own.
Many of these Expressway services were good routes when they were first established but they were operating in a time where the public transport landscape was very different, we did not have the motorways that we do now and we did not have so many people who were traveling city to city as often as they did now. This is just what modern Ireland is about.
Expecting Bus Eireann to run these services out of the kindness of their heart when they are losing money is folly and no business whoever they are should be expected to do that. If Bus Eireann does service official notice that they are looking to relinquish these licenses, then the NTA needs to fund an appropriate level of service for these towns because these Towns are exactly the kind of routes that a PSO fund should be supporting. Expecting a commercial operator to fund them itself is ridiculous and if (and that's a big IF) the government and NTA really think that they should then the Government and the NTA really are wrong and they should reconsider their views immediately.
I disagree, there not viable due to the fact that a large number of their passengers have been offered a faster non stop service that competes directly with a existing stopper service. It's not as if these towns have suffered mass emigration since the motorways have arrived. It's also telling that services such as Waterford, Sligo & Donegal ect where non stop services don't compete are the ones that remain.0 -
The non stop ones in Waterford compete with two other private companies, of which all three companies buses tend to leave full most times pre-covid. Also there is the train to compete with in Waterford, which is even quicker.I disagree, there not viable due to the fact that a large number of their passengers have been offered a faster non stop service that competes directly with a existing stopper service. It's not as if these towns have suffered mass emigration since the motorways have arrived. It's also telling that services such as Waterford, Sligo & Donegal ect where non stop services don't compete are the ones that remain.0 -
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The service is poor as it is. Many drivers could do with a customer service refresher course, many routes have run down coaches running half empty. The staff costs in Bus Eireann are apparently high relative to other bus operators and this is affecting their services. Their costs, particularly staff costs, therefore should be tackled by the CIE group even if this results in higher staff turnover. How is it many private operators I have travelled with hire highly enthusiastic motivated drivers with excellent customer service skills yet are apparently on less favourable terms and conditions compared to BE and with a higher staff turnover compared to BE. BE should use smaller buses where less demand eg routes with a reduced service to Public Service obligation could be considered. The company should offer reduced priced seats to increase demand at off peak times where buses are running half empty. This has been sucessfully adopted by National Express in the UK. There seem to be a serious problem with management at BE. Are BE staff permanent? Dinosaurs was a apt term used by another poster to describe many drivers. If drives are so well remunerated I can not understand why so many of them seem so miserable.
how do you know so many of them are miserable without doing a survey of every single driver?
personal experience in itself won't be enough to gauge anything more then the amount of individual drivers who one has had experience with which does not equate to proof of the same across the board.
between my time as a regular user of bus eireann, and the odd time i have had to use them since, between both usages i came across about maybe 2 3 rude drivers, now that doesn't mean there aren't more, there will be, but i could not make statements about every single driver based on my interactions because perceptions over various things will differ between individuals and experience of a certain amount of people is not enough to gauge any further then those who i have had interactions with.
there will be rude drivers in the privates as there will be decent staff within bus eireann, it's not the black and white nonsense of private good public bad, there are whole shades of gray in between where there will be private operators who are very good and ones who are rubbish, and there will be aspects of the public operator that are good and aspects of it that are bad and need improvement. but
the issue is that one's definition of miserable, customer focused and all else differs between individuals as we can see from the thread, with your mentioning of national express and how drivers will help people with luggage, whereas others will not expect a driver to do that because we believe they have enough to do in driving tunnes of vehicle with 40/50 people on board. not to mention that national express have operations across i believe europe and run only commercial routes, so they can afford to have cheaper fares since they are a much bigger operation then bus eireann could ever be.
as well as that people will have different perceptions as to what someone being rude and miserable may be, some people will come across as being rude and miserable on one's first interaction or first couple of interactions, but if you get to know them more it turns out they may be the complete opposite. an experience i have had throughout my life with a few individuals.
smaller buses on routes is an NTA decision now, bus eireann find it easier just to run coaches as it means fleet comonality and coaches can be redeployed across the various operations where required, whereas smaller buses have less redeployment possibilities and mean another fleet meaning the costs over all may not be as much lower as one may think.
i believe the nta have ordered smaller buses for bus eireann now but ultimately that's down to the nta now to sort out.I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.
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ExoPolitic wrote: »The non stop ones in Waterford compete with two other private companies, of which all three companies buses tend to leave full most times pre-covid. Also there is the train to compete with in Waterford, which is even quicker.
Which non stop buses on Waterford. I was only aware of BE, Kavanagh and Dublin Coach none of which solely provide non stop services direct to the city/airport that I'm aware off. Dublin Coach does Kilkenny and Redcow which seems to be the closest to a non stop service.
I'm sure if someone was to offer a Waterford - Dublin non stop it would likely kill off the profits on these routes.0 -
I foresee a lot of BE's problems being addressed with the introduction of autonomous buses. Would definitely take care of one of the biggest overheads.
Wouldn't even need to offer redundancy, just replacement through attrition0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »I foresee a lot of BE's problems being addressed with the introduction of autonomous buses. Would definitely take care of one of the biggest overheads.
Wouldn't even need to offer redundancy, just replacement through attrition
Not coming anytime soon0 -
Which non stop buses on Waterford. I was only aware of BE, Kavanagh and Dublin Coach none of which solely provide non stop services direct to the city/airport that I'm aware off. Dublin Coach does Kilkenny and Redcow which seems to be the closest to a non stop service.
I'm sure if someone was to offer a Waterford - Dublin non stop it would likely kill off the profits on these routes.
JJ Kavanagh does a non stop service, X4 from BE is non stop too. Dublin Coach is just a brief stop at Kilkenny.0 -
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