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Stealing Jet fuel ffs !

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    #2
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    Could you really put aviation fuel into a Firebird boiler?
    Asking for a friend!!


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Could you really put aviation fuel into a Firebird boiler?
    Asking for a friend!!

    Jet fuel is just kerosene but produced to a higher standard than home heating oil.

    This guy on Quroa gives a much better answer than me.

    https://www.quora.com/Is-jet-fuel-the-same-as-kerosene


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    #4
    SAM SO NITE
    Site Banned Posts: 221 ✭✭SAM SO NITE


    A disgruntled co-worker shopped them id say. It's way more common practice than you think . Much easier and cheaper to let the boys take it home for the tank than have it disposed of by the appropriate channels.

    It would be a daily occurrence in smaller companies and smaller airports. But someone marked their cards for them id say.


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    #5
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    SAM SO NITE wrote: »
    A disgruntled co-worker shopped them id say. It's way more common practice than you think . Much easier and cheaper to let the boys take it home for the tank than have it disposed of by the appropriate channels.

    It would be a daily occurrence in smaller companies and smaller airports. But someone marked their cards for them id say.
    If that's true then I hope they have a good solicitor or union rep on their case.


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    #6
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    It's totally normal to drain fuel from an aircraft on maintenance, it's part of the daily check on the aeroplane to drain a couple of gallons from the sump drains to prevent water building up and interfering with the fuel quantity indication probes in the tanks. On other occasions you might have to drain the fuel to enter the tank or to weigh the aircraft. Once you drain it off you can't put it back in so you have to pay to have the waste fuel collected and environmentally "disposed of". Some companies actually use this waste fuel to heat the hangars and some companies don't mind the employees unofficially "disposing" of the fuel for them. Unless these guys are going in draining the fuel unnecessarily for their own benefit they're not really hurting anyone (although the customs and excise people might not agree).
    Although it's not something I'd do myself I know for a fact it can be used in home central heating systems and people have been known to put it in their diesel cars with no ill effects (allegedly).


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    #7
    Tenger
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Could this be a situation where drained fuel being “disposed of”by staff has been ignored by mgmt for years. But perhaps is now being used as an excuse to get rid of 2 specific staff?



    I can remember a farcical situation about 17-18 years ago where EI were targeting some cabin crew. They stopped an crew off an A330 arrival and suspended them all. One guy has a 2 single serve packets of biscuits in their bag, others had bottles of water (both biscuits and water were provided onboard for the crew)
    In the end the targeted staff weren’t caught out and continued in employment.


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    #8
    ruwithme
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭ruwithme


    Is it a whole pile different than folk who get the use of a works vehicle and drive it all over creation out of work hours?


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    #9
    triggermortis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭triggermortis


    It can definitely be used in home heating systems and older diesel cars, so with the price of buying this through the normal channels always rising, it's no wonder people do it if they can. One place I worked in the past, every connie ran their car on it and we even bought specific cars that would run well on it. Some people drove halfway across Europe on it every week.


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    #10
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,807 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    SAM SO NITE wrote: »
    A disgruntled co-worker shopped them id say. It's way more common practice than you think . Much easier and cheaper to let the boys take it home for the tank than have it disposed of by the appropriate channels.

    It would be a daily occurrence in smaller companies and smaller airports. But someone marked their cards for them id say.

    Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.


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    #11
    Astral Nav
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Astral Nav


    Strumms wrote: »
    Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.

    It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
    Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....


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    #12
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,807 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Astral Nav wrote: »
    It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
    Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....

    Look up a safety data sheet, it’s considered flammable, by IATA, the people who would know, and whose standards I was trained to, in this industry.

    UN1863 Fuel, Aviation, Turbine Engine.

    Class 3 (Flammable Liquid)

    Look up an MSDS, and get somebody qualified, ie. an IATA DG specialist to explain it to you... it may be LESS flammable than other class 3 liquids but that is still going up if ignited, and fast.

    You can watch videos online of it being ignited and you can indeed formulate any opinion based on highly, not so highly or otherwise based on what you see.

    Fill in forms ?


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    #13
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    I think the point is that the company likely would be held liable if something was to occur involving their fuel off the premises, irrespective of the specifics. If an employees house burned down for any reason and there was traces of jet fuel in the house it would certainly be noted in a report on the matter. Now the company is being questioned about their handling and control procedures in what’s supposed to be a highly secure facility. Tut tut at least as far as the average non-aviation person is concerned reading about it. And even if nothing does occur, I assume the relevant environmental authority (the EPA?) will be rightly unhappy that the stuff is sloshing around somewhere it shouldn’t be, creating undue risk of a leak somewhere there shouldn’t be one.

    We just don’t live in a world anymore where these little things can slide by as old and accepted practices. Environment, security and general liability tolerances just ain’t what they used to be. Also doesn’t help the reputation management that the first thing that occurred to someone non-AV I know who mentioned this was “sure weren’t they sneaking people out of the airport last. What else are they up to...”


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    #14
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Without knowing the ins and outs or the specific details of the case I personally think putting waste fuel that would normally be dumped in the ground to more productive use but in the grand scheme of things this is pretty much a victimless crime. It's a pity the operator's themselves can't find a way to put it to good use instead of having to pay to have it disposed of, or even find a way to let the waste fuel be used to hear the homes of the elderly or needy in the community.
    Also on the point of the dangers of carrying the stuff although all fuel is "inflammable" anyone who's ever worked with the stuff will tell you it's really quite difficult to light and a lot safer to carry around in the back of the car than the gallon of petrol you have for your lawnmower.
    I'm also told it's very useful for cleaning stripped down motorbike engines apparently.

    https://youtu.be/7nL10C7FSbE


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    #15
    Board Walker
    Registered Users Posts: 770 ✭✭✭Board Walker


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Jet fuel is just kerosene but produced to a higher standard than home heating oil.

    This guy on Quroa gives a much better answer than me.

    https://www.quora.com/Is-jet-fuel-the-same-as-kerosene

    JetA1 is the exact same thing as Kerosene only HHO has a colour marker as obviously its priced about 30c a liter more than Jet. People think its highly flammable but its much closer to diesel than mogas. That said! if youput a match to it, its a lot easier to heat it to 32 degrees to its flash point to ignite it.

    I used work in the whitegate refinery but i work in Rotterdam now at the Shell refinery but they dont refine kerosene in whitegate any more.


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    #16
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,191 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Strumms wrote: »
    Look up a safety data sheet, it’s considered flammable, by IATA, the people who would know, and whose standards I was trained to, in this industry.

    UN1863 Fuel, Aviation, Turbine Engine.

    Class 3 (Flammable Liquid)

    Look up an MSDS, and get somebody qualified, ie. an IATA DG specialist to explain it to you... it may be LESS flammable than other class 3 liquids but that is still going up if ignited, and fast.

    You can watch videos online of it being ignited and you can indeed formulate any opinion based on highly, not so highly or otherwise based on what you see.

    Fill in forms ?

    How is it different to buying 20 litres of kerosene from a filling station?
    Many garages sell 20 litre plastic drums of kerosene, usually under the signage "emergency heating oil".


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    #17
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Also doesn’t help the reputation management that the first thing that occurred to someone non-AV I know who mentioned this was “sure weren’t they sneaking people out of the airport last. What else are they up to...”
    I don't think people are thinking that at all, it's two very different matters.

    I'm wondering how they managed to get the stuff out through security so it must have been fairly small amounts.
    I know theft of company property is a serious issue, especially when it comes to airlines, I've seen people sacked in the past for the "theft" of airline food that was destined for the skip.
    In this case I'm guessing that the customs and excise people are more interested in this case than the gardai because of the duty implications of misusing aircraft fuel rather than the theft of waste fuel.


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    #18
    skallywag
    Registered Users Posts: 2,987 ✭✭✭skallywag


    Astral Nav wrote: »
    It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't.

    I recall a fire chief at an Irish airport giving us a training some years back, anyone airside had to undergo said training. He put out two metal trays on the ground, putting petrol into one, and JET A1 into another, and proceeded to throw a match into both. The petrol went up with a whoof, while the match went out in the JET A1. He could not get it to ingnite at all, much to our surprise, but not to his.


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    #19
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    Astral Nav wrote: »
    It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
    Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....
    True. Petrol is highly volatile and highly flammable which is why it has to be transported in special containers, whereas Kero doesn't. You can buy it at filling stations (that sell it) in ordinary containers.


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    #20
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    You need to atomise Jet A1 (or diesel) add a spark and you get a bang, watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL10C7FSbE

    Throw a match into Jet A1/diesel/kerosene it almost certainly will go out.


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    #21
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,485 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Strumms wrote: »
    Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.

    Would it be a danger in an accident?
    I see loads of people coming across the border every day with vans and car boots full of drums of kerosene. Cheaper in N. Irl.
    I wonder would they be insured carrying it.


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    #22
    Strumms
    Registered Users Posts: 24,807 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Astral Nav wrote: »
    It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
    Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....

    It has a flashpoint of 38 degrees centigrade, It’s rated as flammable liquid.

    Flashpoint definition: Flash point is the lowest temperature at which a liquid can gives off vapor to form an ignitable mixture in air near the surface of the liquid. The lower the flash point, the easier it is to ignite the material


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    #23
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Whether or not it lights afire better than petrol isn't really the issue. The the company must pay to dispose of the fuel in a controlled way; and it is allowing the fuel off the premises to who knows what and saving themselves a few quid in the process. They're abrogating their responsibility if in the past they turned a blind eye.

    30 years ago I remember all sorts of shenanigans that just aren't kosher anymore. Chalk it up to "back in the day..."
    I don't think people are thinking that at all, it's two very different matters.

    As I say, I found it amusing that when someone sent this round one of the WhatsApp groups I'm in, that was the spontaneous comment. I'm sure it's not the general opinion.


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    #24
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    The issue of liability and all that arises when something happens if it can be shown that the company officially knew about this and made accepted it happening or did not make any directing that it should not happen or do anything to stop it.

    But the irish way around this is to have an official company policy and SOP prohibiting it..... but still unofficially let it happen anyway on the QT. Nobody asks no questions and nobody is told any lies, you just work away with a nod and wink and no-one says or knows anything as long as things are going OK.

    Then in the event that there is a fire or a spill or something, the company can fall back on the official policy and the person who was taking the oil unofficially has to take the rap for breaking procedures etc.

    Cute hurrism at it's most basic. Make no mistake, this kinda thing is going on left right and centre throughout the country in every industry.

    In an industry I worked in, sometimes a site will have to be cleared and trees and bushes and waste bits of timber off custs are to be "removed, mulched and disposed of at a licenced facility" etc etc. However, some trees and boughs make excellent firewood and they "get chopped up so they are easier to load into the chipper". Then most if it just vanishes without going into the chipper.

    It is not an official policy and it would technically prohibited and could be considered theft. However, "ask no questions, hear no lies".

    The company and the person and the dogs on the street know the unofficial drill for these setups.......you take the waste oil on the QT, everyone happens to be looking the other direction when you put the drum into your boot, you get the benefit of using the oil, but you take on the risk of getting in some degree of trouble and diciplined if something goes wrong with a spill or fire or whatever.


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    #25
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Jet fuel can't melt steal beams rads!


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    #26
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-investigate-theft-of-jet-fuel-at-dublin-airport-1.4176711

    €10,000 worth of fuel. So, it sounds like more than a bit of wastage. And the gardai involved.


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    #27
    dazed+confused
    Registered Users Posts: 999 ✭✭✭dazed+confused


    billy few mates wrote: »
    I'm wondering how they managed to get the stuff out through security so it must have been fairly small amounts.

    In this case I'm guessing that the customs and excise people are more interested in this case than the gardai because of the duty implications of misusing aircraft fuel rather than the theft of waste fuel.

    One news source had it at 11,000litres, so the quantities were significant and there must have been a vehicle in use.

    The company will also be concerned about the misuse of their equipment too.

    And you're right, I bet customs are all over it. They don't take things like this lightly.


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    #28
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    11,000 litres over a "period of time" that could be 10 or 12 years for all we know.
    For that they probably get a slap on the wrist and a telling off and back to their jobs with a warning for first offence.

    However, if it was 11,000 litres over a very short time then it is possible they got too big for their boots and got greedy and started taking the piss with it. Especially if they were selling it on for profit. No-body minds a bit for their own use but selling on is taking the piss and they need to be let know that they took it too far.


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    #29
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭plodder


    From the link in the OP
    The fuel was drained from an Aer Lingus aircraft that was undergoing maintenance in a hanger in December.

    Though that doesn't say whether it had been happening prior to that, or who if anyone knew about it.


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    #30
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    We won't know unless / until the investigation leads to charges and a case, but the Irish Times story indicates that Gardai are investigating one particular incident in December whilst also enumerating the amount of €10,000. It's unclear the relation between that one incident and the period of time amount of €10k.

    Doing some scratch maths - oh ignore me entirely!


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    #31
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    I'd say go back and have a look at your scratch maths again. I don't know where you are going with your €157 for a gallon of Jet A kerosene - not going very far at that rate.

    242 litres is about a barrel and a quarter. It is nothing.


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