Stealing Jet fuel ffs !

Wtf ?

I am sure they can afford to heat their homes, Silly way to lose your job !
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-investigating-theft-of-aviation-fuel-from-dublin-airport-982294.html

Fann Linn

Could you really put aviation fuel into a Firebird boiler?
Asking for a friend!!

Fann Linn

Fann Linn wrote: »

Could you really put aviation fuel into a Firebird boiler?
Asking for a friend!!

Jet fuel is just kerosene but produced to a higher standard than home heating oil.

This guy on Quroa gives a much better answer than me.

https://www.quora.com/Is-jet-fuel-the-same-as-kerosene

SAM SO NITE

A disgruntled co-worker shopped them id say. It's way more common practice than you think . Much easier and cheaper to let the boys take it home for the tank than have it disposed of by the appropriate channels.

It would be a daily occurrence in smaller companies and smaller airports. But someone marked their cards for them id say.

plodder

SAM SO NITE wrote: »

A disgruntled co-worker shopped them id say. It's way more common practice than you think . Much easier and cheaper to let the boys take it home for the tank than have it disposed of by the appropriate channels.

It would be a daily occurrence in smaller companies and smaller airports. But someone marked their cards for them id say.

If that's true then I hope they have a good solicitor or union rep on their case.

billy few mates

It's totally normal to drain fuel from an aircraft on maintenance, it's part of the daily check on the aeroplane to drain a couple of gallons from the sump drains to prevent water building up and interfering with the fuel quantity indication probes in the tanks. On other occasions you might have to drain the fuel to enter the tank or to weigh the aircraft. Once you drain it off you can't put it back in so you have to pay to have the waste fuel collected and environmentally "disposed of". Some companies actually use this waste fuel to heat the hangars and some companies don't mind the employees unofficially "disposing" of the fuel for them. Unless these guys are going in draining the fuel unnecessarily for their own benefit they're not really hurting anyone (although the customs and excise people might not agree).
Although it's not something I'd do myself I know for a fact it can be used in home central heating systems and people have been known to put it in their diesel cars with no ill effects (allegedly).

Tenger

Could this be a situation where drained fuel being “disposed of”by staff has been ignored by mgmt for years. But perhaps is now being used as an excuse to get rid of 2 specific staff?



I can remember a farcical situation about 17-18 years ago where EI were targeting some cabin crew. They stopped an crew off an A330 arrival and suspended them all. One guy has a 2 single serve packets of biscuits in their bag, others had bottles of water (both biscuits and water were provided onboard for the crew)
In the end the targeted staff weren’t caught out and continued in employment.

ruwithme

Is it a whole pile different than folk who get the use of a works vehicle and drive it all over creation out of work hours?

triggermortis

It can definitely be used in home heating systems and older diesel cars, so with the price of buying this through the normal channels always rising, it's no wonder people do it if they can. One place I worked in the past, every connie ran their car on it and we even bought specific cars that would run well on it. Some people drove halfway across Europe on it every week.

Strumms

SAM SO NITE wrote: »

A disgruntled co-worker shopped them id say. It's way more common practice than you think . Much easier and cheaper to let the boys take it home for the tank than have it disposed of by the appropriate channels.

It would be a daily occurrence in smaller companies and smaller airports. But someone marked their cards for them id say.

Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.

Astral Nav

Strumms wrote: »

Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.

It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....

Strumms

Astral Nav wrote: »

It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....

Look up a safety data sheet, it’s considered flammable, by IATA, the people who would know, and whose standards I was trained to, in this industry.

UN1863 Fuel, Aviation, Turbine Engine.

Class 3 (Flammable Liquid)

Look up an MSDS, and get somebody qualified, ie. an IATA DG specialist to explain it to you... it may be LESS flammable than other class 3 liquids but that is still going up if ignited, and fast.

You can watch videos online of it being ignited and you can indeed formulate any opinion based on highly, not so highly or otherwise based on what you see.

Fill in forms ?

Nijmegen

I think the point is that the company likely would be held liable if something was to occur involving their fuel off the premises, irrespective of the specifics. If an employees house burned down for any reason and there was traces of jet fuel in the house it would certainly be noted in a report on the matter. Now the company is being questioned about their handling and control procedures in what’s supposed to be a highly secure facility. Tut tut at least as far as the average non-aviation person is concerned reading about it. And even if nothing does occur, I assume the relevant environmental authority (the EPA?) will be rightly unhappy that the stuff is sloshing around somewhere it shouldn’t be, creating undue risk of a leak somewhere there shouldn’t be one.

We just don’t live in a world anymore where these little things can slide by as old and accepted practices. Environment, security and general liability tolerances just ain’t what they used to be. Also doesn’t help the reputation management that the first thing that occurred to someone non-AV I know who mentioned this was “sure weren’t they sneaking people out of the airport last. What else are they up to...”

billy few mates

Without knowing the ins and outs or the specific details of the case I personally think putting waste fuel that would normally be dumped in the ground to more productive use but in the grand scheme of things this is pretty much a victimless crime. It's a pity the operator's themselves can't find a way to put it to good use instead of having to pay to have it disposed of, or even find a way to let the waste fuel be used to hear the homes of the elderly or needy in the community.
Also on the point of the dangers of carrying the stuff although all fuel is "inflammable" anyone who's ever worked with the stuff will tell you it's really quite difficult to light and a lot safer to carry around in the back of the car than the gallon of petrol you have for your lawnmower.
I'm also told it's very useful for cleaning stripped down motorbike engines apparently.

https://youtu.be/7nL10C7FSbE

Board Walker

Deleted User wrote: »

Jet fuel is just kerosene but produced to a higher standard than home heating oil.

This guy on Quroa gives a much better answer than me.

https://www.quora.com/Is-jet-fuel-the-same-as-kerosene

JetA1 is the exact same thing as Kerosene only HHO has a colour marker as obviously its priced about 30c a liter more than Jet. People think its highly flammable but its much closer to diesel than mogas. That said! if youput a match to it, its a lot easier to heat it to 32 degrees to its flash point to ignite it.

I used work in the whitegate refinery but i work in Rotterdam now at the Shell refinery but they dont refine kerosene in whitegate any more.

Nekarsulm

Strumms wrote: »

Look up a safety data sheet, it’s considered flammable, by IATA, the people who would know, and whose standards I was trained to, in this industry.

UN1863 Fuel, Aviation, Turbine Engine.

Class 3 (Flammable Liquid)

Look up an MSDS, and get somebody qualified, ie. an IATA DG specialist to explain it to you... it may be LESS flammable than other class 3 liquids but that is still going up if ignited, and fast.

You can watch videos online of it being ignited and you can indeed formulate any opinion based on highly, not so highly or otherwise based on what you see.

Fill in forms ?

How is it different to buying 20 litres of kerosene from a filling station?
Many garages sell 20 litre plastic drums of kerosene, usually under the signage "emergency heating oil".

billy few mates

Nijmegen wrote: »

Also doesn’t help the reputation management that the first thing that occurred to someone non-AV I know who mentioned this was “sure weren’t they sneaking people out of the airport last. What else are they up to...”

I don't think people are thinking that at all, it's two very different matters.

I'm wondering how they managed to get the stuff out through security so it must have been fairly small amounts.
I know theft of company property is a serious issue, especially when it comes to airlines, I've seen people sacked in the past for the "theft" of airline food that was destined for the skip.
In this case I'm guessing that the customs and excise people are more interested in this case than the gardai because of the duty implications of misusing aircraft fuel rather than the theft of waste fuel.

skallywag

Astral Nav wrote: »

It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't.

I recall a fire chief at an Irish airport giving us a training some years back, anyone airside had to undergo said training. He put out two metal trays on the ground, putting petrol into one, and JET A1 into another, and proceeded to throw a match into both. The petrol went up with a whoof, while the match went out in the JET A1. He could not get it to ingnite at all, much to our surprise, but not to his.

plodder

Astral Nav wrote: »

It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....

True. Petrol is highly volatile and highly flammable which is why it has to be transported in special containers, whereas Kero doesn't. You can buy it at filling stations (that sell it) in ordinary containers.

goingnowhere

You need to atomise Jet A1 (or diesel) add a spark and you get a bang, watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nL10C7FSbE

Throw a match into Jet A1/diesel/kerosene it almost certainly will go out.

tayto lover

Strumms wrote: »

Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.

Would it be a danger in an accident?
I see loads of people coming across the border every day with vans and car boots full of drums of kerosene. Cheaper in N. Irl.
I wonder would they be insured carrying it.

Strumms

Astral Nav wrote: »

It's not highly flammable. Jet A just isn't. You know that if you work above a certain level in aviation.
Of course I always fill out all the forms you mentioned whenever I fill up my car, buy paint thinner or a bottle of spirits and feel much safer that I have....

It has a flashpoint of 38 degrees centigrade, It’s rated as flammable liquid.

Flashpoint definition: Flash point is the lowest temperature at which a liquid can gives off vapor to form an ignitable mixture in air near the surface of the liquid. The lower the flash point, the easier it is to ignite the material

Nijmegen

Whether or not it lights afire better than petrol isn't really the issue. The the company must pay to dispose of the fuel in a controlled way; and it is allowing the fuel off the premises to who knows what and saving themselves a few quid in the process. They're abrogating their responsibility if in the past they turned a blind eye.

30 years ago I remember all sorts of shenanigans that just aren't kosher anymore. Chalk it up to "back in the day..."

I don't think people are thinking that at all, it's two very different matters.

As I say, I found it amusing that when someone sent this round one of the WhatsApp groups I'm in, that was the spontaneous comment. I'm sure it's not the general opinion.

TheBoyConor

The issue of liability and all that arises when something happens if it can be shown that the company officially knew about this and made accepted it happening or did not make any directing that it should not happen or do anything to stop it.

But the irish way around this is to have an official company policy and SOP prohibiting it..... but still unofficially let it happen anyway on the QT. Nobody asks no questions and nobody is told any lies, you just work away with a nod and wink and no-one says or knows anything as long as things are going OK.

Then in the event that there is a fire or a spill or something, the company can fall back on the official policy and the person who was taking the oil unofficially has to take the rap for breaking procedures etc.

Cute hurrism at it's most basic. Make no mistake, this kinda thing is going on left right and centre throughout the country in every industry.

In an industry I worked in, sometimes a site will have to be cleared and trees and bushes and waste bits of timber off custs are to be "removed, mulched and disposed of at a licenced facility" etc etc. However, some trees and boughs make excellent firewood and they "get chopped up so they are easier to load into the chipper". Then most if it just vanishes without going into the chipper.

It is not an official policy and it would technically prohibited and could be considered theft. However, "ask no questions, hear no lies".

The company and the person and the dogs on the street know the unofficial drill for these setups.......you take the waste oil on the QT, everyone happens to be looking the other direction when you put the drum into your boot, you get the benefit of using the oil, but you take on the risk of getting in some degree of trouble and diciplined if something goes wrong with a spill or fire or whatever.

super_furry

Jet fuel can't melt steal beams rads!

plodder

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-investigate-theft-of-jet-fuel-at-dublin-airport-1.4176711

€10,000 worth of fuel. So, it sounds like more than a bit of wastage. And the gardai involved.

dazed+confused

billy few mates wrote: »

I'm wondering how they managed to get the stuff out through security so it must have been fairly small amounts.

In this case I'm guessing that the customs and excise people are more interested in this case than the gardai because of the duty implications of misusing aircraft fuel rather than the theft of waste fuel.

One news source had it at 11,000litres, so the quantities were significant and there must have been a vehicle in use.

The company will also be concerned about the misuse of their equipment too.

And you're right, I bet customs are all over it. They don't take things like this lightly.

TheBoyConor

11,000 litres over a "period of time" that could be 10 or 12 years for all we know.
For that they probably get a slap on the wrist and a telling off and back to their jobs with a warning for first offence.

However, if it was 11,000 litres over a very short time then it is possible they got too big for their boots and got greedy and started taking the piss with it. Especially if they were selling it on for profit. No-body minds a bit for their own use but selling on is taking the piss and they need to be let know that they took it too far.

plodder

From the link in the OP

The fuel was drained from an Aer Lingus aircraft that was undergoing maintenance in a hanger in December.

Though that doesn't say whether it had been happening prior to that, or who if anyone knew about it.

Nijmegen

We won't know unless / until the investigation leads to charges and a case, but the Irish Times story indicates that Gardai are investigating one particular incident in December whilst also enumerating the amount of €10,000. It's unclear the relation between that one incident and the period of time amount of €10k.

Doing some scratch maths - oh ignore me entirely!

TheBoyConor

I'd say go back and have a look at your scratch maths again. I don't know where you are going with your €157 for a gallon of Jet A kerosene - not going very far at that rate.

242 litres is about a barrel and a quarter. It is nothing.

323

Wtf ? wrote: »

I am sure they can afford to heat their homes, Silly way to lose your job !
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gardai-investigating-theft-of-aviation-fuel-from-dublin-airport-982294.html

Betting if they dig a bit deeper, will find it was not just for their own home heating use. Been going on for years.



Few years ago arrived home late cold evening mid-winter to heating off/tank empty. On recommendation got delivery from a startup/one man show delivery business. Chancer, got 1100 litres of what turned out to be AvGas.
If had been Jet-A, would have been fine and probably wouldn't have noticed. But got up next morning to everything in the back yard black and boiler clogged full with fine soot.


Should have reported it, too much going on at the time.



Adjust/increase airflow and burned fine. Very clean.

Nijmegen

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd say go back and have a look at your scratch maths again. I don't know where you are going with your €157 for a gallon of Jet A kerosene - not going very far at that rate.

242 litres is about a barrel and a quarter. It is nothing.

Haha, cents cents! How embarrassing, the child had me up several times last night is my excuse

donkey balls

Strumms wrote: »

Prob for the company would be if say if in ok, in very unlucky situation an employee was in a crash on the way home with 10 liters of jet a1, highly, highly flammable liquid, from a legal standpoint are they ADR qualified to carry it ? Highly unlikely... will they have the required accompanying MSDS (material safety data sheet) in case of accident, not likely, so the company would be correct in their willingness to see the fuel destroyed properly over handing out buckets of the stuff to employees.

Jet A1 while a flammable liquid has a HIN nbr of 30 Hazard identification number petrol has a HiN nbr of 33, If you look at the orange plates on a tanker the top nbr is the class so 3 is a flammable liquid 33 means that it is highly flammable.
As for being ADR trained as long as the container is not over 5 liters they are classed as accepted qty.

Nekarsulm

plodder wrote: »

True. Petrol is highly volatile and highly flammable which is why it has to be transported in special containers, whereas Kero doesn't. You can buy it at filling stations (that sell it) in ordinary containers.

Sitting between a two pair of pumps at our local station...

plodder

A dog wash... I've seen it all now.

That's what I call a "service station" ^

Stovepipe

When airlines drain large quantities of fuel for a maintenance check that involves access to the inside of the tanks, that fuel will not go back into the aircraft as it may have water or other contaminants in it,so the fuel company drains it and takes it away for recycling and gives the airline a credit of a few cents per litre of the waste fuel. It is then filtered to clear it of contaminants and dyed and sold as home heating oil. I confirmed that with both the refuellers I meet every day in work and the oil delivery guy at home.
Now, if you are prepared to risk putting it in a car engine, it wont work on modern fuel injectors as, it has been said, the engine computer is programmed to refuse anything that is not road diesel. Older larger diesel injectors will happily drink it, but the critical difference is that, unlike road diesel, it has no sulphur,so therefore it will not lubricate the diesel injection pump and you risk ruining an expensive pump, so, allegedly,you mix two-stroke with the Avtur and it'll run just fine. Revenue and Customs take a dim view of this, of course and if you are dipped, you will get caught as they are able to detect the presence of kero in your fuel tank. They have also been known to test the fuel pump to see if kero has passed through it.

donkey balls

Are you sure about the refueling company defueling and then disposing it themselves, From memory if just say the company defueled just say either an FR or EI aircraft.
That fuel can only go back into the same aircraft/fleet and not another carrier.

Stovepipe

When I last was involved in a full defueling, the fuel company tanker drained the aircraft and left and did not put the stuff back into an aircraft, as there was a suspicion of microbiological contamination, so there was no way it was ever going into an aircraft again.

donkey balls

Yep I know about the possibility of bacteria build up that's why if an EI aircraft was defueled the fuel could only go back into an EI aircraft.

smurfjed

I have watched excess fuel getting pumped straight back into the top of the fuel truck.

donkey balls

Again I've never seen it happen as the 2 fuel companies would each have a tanker just for defueling.

smurfjed

I seen it done for 100 kgs off a small jet and 100,000 kgs off a 747.

Hotblack Desiato

323 wrote: »

Few years ago arrived home late cold evening mid-winter to heating off/tank empty. On recommendation got delivery from a startup/one man show delivery business. Chancer, got 1100 litres of what turned out to be AvGas.

Avgas, the cheaper alternative to home heating oil... heard it all now! :rolleyes:

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070222003036AAaVU1i&guccounter=1

Hotblack Desiato

Tenger wrote: »

Could this be a situation where drained fuel being “disposed of”by staff has been ignored by mgmt for years. But perhaps is now being used as an excuse to get rid of 2 specific staff?

Sure and then they win their unfair dismissal case when others doing the same thing were not disciplined. There was a case very similar to that in Bank of Ireland some years back over smutty emails which were circulating around.

Man fired over ‘inappropriate’ emails must be reinstated

Despite uncontradicted evidence of a widespread practice within the bank of sending inappropriate emails, the bank hierarchy decided early in 2009 to “make an example” of Mr Reilly to deter others from similar behaviour, the judge found.

While “lip service” was paid to observance of procedures, it was “clear there was only going to be one outcome”. The manner in which the bank predetermined this matter and “manipulated” the entire process from the outset reflected little credit on it and visited a “very grave injustice” on Mr Reilly.

The “only appropriate remedy” was reinstatement, the judge told Roughan Banim SC, with Johanna Ronan–Mehigan BL, for Mr Reilly.

donkey balls

smurfjed wrote: »

I seen it done for 100 kgs off a small jet and 100,000 kgs off a 747.

100.000kgs off a 747 ? I find that hard to believe that's over 3 tanker loads not a hope that either refueling companies could handle that.
And dispose of it.