ASTI threaten strike action

portbilly · 19-03-2020 5:15pm

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:17pm

hardybuck wrote: »

You don't appear to have read my post properly - I said that I wouldn't waste my time on you, not that I couldn't find examples for you. I also think the Secret Teacher articles that the Irish Times ran a while back were great but haven't bothered listing them here - you can google them yourself if you're bothered.

Also, you sought evidence of articles that the media has generally supported the media on. Now you are changing the goal posts by trying to narrow your 'criteria' to matters involving industrial action.

If you're looking for something to do, you might consider reflecting on how a campaign of industrial action will reflect well upon the profession and generate a win for teachers in a year of unprecedented international crisis when:

- Our economy will slide into recession pretty shortly;
- Hundreds of thousands of workers will lose their jobs;
- When thousands, if not tens of thousands, of other public servants will be redeployed to assist with front-line efforts to tackle COVID-19;
- When schools will be shut for potentially be shut for six months

If you think a campaign of industrial action is worth pursuing in light of the above you've completely lost touch with reality.

The only timewasting would be the unions trying to win public favour. Ive read all the ST articles. They dont do that much for our PR tbh. Written by somebody who clearly has ambitions outside the classroom.

I declared I wanted to narrow the criteria. No need to point out what I already know. Fact remains only 1 article is relevent to my (revised) criteria and it hardly constitutes a genuine effort at portraying both sides of the story, as Ive already explained.

I also already pointed out that a campaign of industrial action is not going to happen. Where did I imply this was likely to happen?

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:23pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

I also already pointed out that a campaign of industrial action is not going to happen. Where did I imply this was likely to happen?

This comes back to an earlier post where a poster couldn't believe how anyone would vote no for strike action, in a thread entitled 'ASTI threaten strike action'.

If you're talking about something else you've gone off topic.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:27pm

portbilly wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

I have no doubt that the unions, and their members, would do the same all over again if it meant protecting their pay at someone else's (i.e. future colleagues) expense.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:27pm

hardybuck wrote: »

This comes back to an earlier post where a poster couldn't believe how anyone would vote no for strike action, in a thread entitled 'ASTI threaten strike action'.

If you're talking about something else you've gone off topic.

The optics of such a campaign was a topic you brought up my friend. Not me

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:28pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

The optics of such a campaign was a topic you brought up my friend. Not me

The optics, and the timing of the threatened action, would have a huge impact on the result.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:31pm

portbilly wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

Decision to cut new entrants pay was introduced unilaterally by the govt at bequest of the Troika and after unions had accepted the Croke Park agreement, binding them to industrial peace. There was no sell out.

This is exactly the kind of ignorance that is inevitable once you rely on the Irish Times, Indo, Newstalk for your information. Thank you for proving my point.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 5:32pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The optics, and the timing of the threatened action, would have a huge impact on the result.

Now youre moving the goalposts

Treppen · 19-03-2020 5:37pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The optics, and the timing of the threatened action, would have a huge impact on the result.

The last thing you want in an industrial action is the public honking horns in support. Only way you get government action is when the public get angry.

hardybuck · 19-03-2020 5:43pm

Treppen wrote: »

The last thing you want in an industrial action is the public honking horns in support. Only way you get government action is when the public get angry.

The nurses got fantastic support from the public and have huge admiration from them - and it made all the difference recently.

Benicetomonty · 19-03-2020 6:01pm

hardybuck wrote: »

The nurses got fantastic support from the public and have huge admiration from them - and it made all the difference recently.

No sane person would ever have a problem with nurses being paid more. And the papers know it. Any sustained negativity would probably see people boycott offending publications.

What upset me as a teacher was that the nurses signed up to the PPSA, which bound them to industrial peace for its duration, and went on strike anyway. Were they subjected to penalties under FEMPI? Like heck they were. Nope, they got more or less what they wanted. Because the govt, like the papers, know exactly how people wouldve responded if they hadv imposed financial penalties.

The ASTI on the other hand went on strike for a most justifiable cause, pay equality, and were destroyed by the media at every opportunity. To add insult to injury, they were savaged by FEMPI even though they didnt even sign up to the PPSA. Open and shut favouritism in the treatment of unions.

And people like you had no idea about any of this. Partly because of how astonishingly under reported it was and remains. But mostly because you dont want to know. Because teachers are fair game. Their jobs cant compare to nurses. They only educate our youth.

Chilli Con Kearney · 19-03-2020 10:49pm

portbilly wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, I firmly believe in equal pay for equal work, especially younger graduates, hopefully motivated to impart knowledge, and educate our young. The elephant in the room here is that older teachers sold out younger colleagues when during the crisis they said fair enough we'll keep what we have and to hell with the younger graduates, a common Public Service attitude (I believe nurses were the only group who didn't sell out to the same extent.). The public service in general and teaching unions in particular need to realise that the cake (public purse is only so big). It's morally unjust that a teacher can retire after 40 years, massive lump sum, and earn more from pension than younger teacher starting out coping with accomodation, rent, mortgage, childcare Etc. Don't say that teachers have paid for these pensions a tiny % compared to the external market value of these pension pots. I hate to be bashing teachers a good teacher is worth their weight in gold, a bad teacher a (I can't post) but it's my children's future. Of course the unions say there are no bad teachers. In the private sector well run companies strive for 10% attrition rate based on poor performance not so in the public service get increments and then cry when maxed out. As you can ascertain I work in the private sector lucky to still have a job during this C9 crisis, my pension pot-my own contributions no company contributions decimated in the last 2 weeks. Please don't post {should have been a teacher rhetoric it's so unimaginative and smug} Any teachers / Unions out there offer to help with contact tracing ??

I'm going to stop you there man. If you are going to wade in, at least get the facts right.

The teaching unions signed up to a collective agreement, which included no lay offs of staff, redeployment panels, additional pension related deductions, additional hours for meetings and planning as well as no entitlement to industrial action for the lifetime of the agreement.

After this, the government unilaterally changed the pay scales for new entrants and the unions/teachers could do nothing about it as the agreement had been signed.

That is what happened. I didn't like the agreement at the time, because of the lack of scope for industrial action. It says a lot about a government when they enforce rules like that, its very anti-worker. But hey, the majority of union members voted for it and so on we went

But that's not sexy enough, it doesn't sell papers or generate headlines, or give click bait for the lads commenting on the journal (frothing from the mouth at the chance to drag teachers over the coals again) or neighbours who can't wait to mention it to you about you selling their niece/nephew/son/daughter who is starting out in teaching down the river (as you said) or your mates from the private sector who just can't ever get past the "June, July and August" argument. But it IS what happened whether you like it or not. So please inform yourself before calling spades spades. Sometimes, just sometimes, it gets annoying hearing it again and again and abloodygain.

ASTI threaten strike action

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