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Is there anyway out ?

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    #62
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Why? Because we live in a society where 96% of primary schools have a religious 'ethos' yet are funded by the taxpayer
    Where religious discrimination is legal, even against kids of the age of 4 trying to get into a school
    Where some hospitals, also funded by the taxpayer, refuse to provide legal reproductive health services
    Where the consititution is openly theistic and certain offices of state require religious oaths
    Where those who choose not to swear on a bible in court are regarded as oddballs at best
    Where the politicians with rare exceptions kowtow to religious leaders at all times
    Where crimes committed by the leaders of religious orders and bishops go uninvestigated, never mind charged and convicted
    Where a yard containing hundreds of human corpses whose deaths were never properly recorded, placed there within living memory, is not regarded as a crime scene
    Where our national broadcaster carries calls to prayer every day
    Where our national broadcaster asserts religious claims as fact on a frequent basis and these claims are rarely if ever challeged
    Where a statement of non-belief on the TV is still regarded as shocking by some on here :rolleyes:

    etc.etc.

    How can we leave religion alone when religion will not leave us alone?

    If you feel persecuted by 90 seconds or so of a volunteer showing a woman with special needs how to make brown bread then you definitely need to get out more.
    Any complaints you have about the national broadcaster you should take to BAI
    The 4 primary schools in our medium sized country town are full of kids of all faiths and none, so that's nonsense plus there's obviously no appetite within the vast majority of parents to change something that's not broken or we'd have heard about it by now.
    Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.


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    #63
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #64
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    infogiver wrote: »
    If I'd cut my ties with something, divorced myself so to speak, left it all behind etc
    I'd imagine I'd be actively avoiding becoming involved in any discussions, cyber or real life on that subject
    Life's too short and all that
    I'm interested in the psychology of it I suppose
    It's like "I'm leaving...but one last thing..."
    I've left things behind me in my time, with good reasons, like you.
    Men, jobs, friendships etc and once I've made up my mind there's no turning back. It's as if that person that job that relationship never existed.
    I don't properly understand the born again atheists continually returning to the subject that caused them so much pain and anger. That's all

    I'm not sure where you're getting this idea from. My deconversion as it were had nothing to do with pain and anger. In fact I found the experience quite positive. The decision to go through the countmeout process was motivated by the church's response (or lack thereof) to the abuse scandal. I'll admit there was an element of anger there but that was/is a feeling shared by more than just atheists. Many Catholics I know are also deeply angered about the abuse scandal.
    Secondly, it's not as if I'm continually returning to the subject, I doubt if all the posts I've made about my deconversion/apostasy would come even close to 1% of all the posts I've made here. Most of my posts have been taken up with discussions on evolution, cosmology, LGBT rights, abortion, the linguistics of atheism etc.
    Finally, there will always be new people coming in here who have just abandoned their faith and have questions to be answered. Those of us who have already been through that experience can and IMHO should help these people out by sharing our experiences and what we've learned along the way.

    infogiver wrote: »
    If you feel persecuted by 90 seconds or so of a volunteer showing a woman with special needs how to make brown bread then you definitely need to get out more.
    Any complaints you have about the national broadcaster you should take to BAI
    The 4 primary schools in our medium sized country town are full of kids of all faiths and none, so that's nonsense plus there's obviously no appetite within the vast majority of parents to change something that's not broken or we'd have heard about it by now.
    Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.

    I've struggled in vain to find anything in Hotblack's post which infringes or wants to infringe on a person's right to practice their religion. Saying that the state should not have a preferred religion or saying that the state should not give preferential treatment to one sect of one religion has no impact on people's religious rights e.g.(Why? Because we live in a society where 96% of primary schools have a religious 'ethos' yet are funded by the taxpayer;Where religious discrimination is legal, even against kids of the age of 4 trying to get into a school)

    Saying that publicly funded organisations should not engage in discrimination also has no impact on people's religious rights (Where some hospitals, also funded by the taxpayer, refuse to provide legal reproductive health services)

    Calling for the removal of religious requirements for public office also does not impact people's religious rights (Where the consititution is openly theistic and certain offices of state require religious oaths)

    Perhaps you'd like to cite some examples of where you think people's right to practice their religion would be affected if any or all of Hotblack's ideas were implemented.


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    #65
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    infogiver wrote: »
    Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.

    Yes, people can practice their religion. But never at the expense of other people's rights and freedoms.

    - If as part of your belief you believe use of condoms was wrong so you believed the government should ban them then you are effecting people who don't share your belief. If you believe condom use is wrong then its very simple. Don't use them.

    - If you believe marriage equality is wrong then simple continue to ban same sex marriages within your religion....nobody has an issue with that. But don't expect the Irish state to share this same ban and don't expect people who do not share your belief to agree with it.

    If you want to pray your life away you are most certainly welcome to do that every day for whats remaining in your life, but anytime you try and limit other people's beliefs or freedoms by pushing your religious beliefs on them then you can very much expect to be pushed back.

    You may believe this is us being unreasonable but imagine for a second that Muslims started to limit your life, they looked for pork to be banned but you love pork. They looked for dogs to be banned but you love dogs. You don't share their belief in relation to those things so why should you be effected?

    Logically I'm sure you'd come to the conclusion that if you don't like pork or dogs then don't eat pork and don't own a dog.


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    #66
    Walter H Price
    Registered Users Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭Walter H Price


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    As TheChizler and others have pointed out there is an argument to be made here about validating the church's rules by buying into them. However, as an ex-Catholic who has been through the countmeout process, there was a certain element of closure in telling the church that not only did you no longer believe their teachings but that you were sufficiently repulsed by their behaviour that you formally signalled your intention to sever all ties. It's not just about not believing but letting the church know that you don't believe.

    to this point , i think that's what he's really looking for to be honest when i read that it kinda clicked for me why hes been trying to do something formal or semi formal , the revelations about what happened to his uncle had a real affect on him and i think hes probably looking for some sort of closure.

    Personally i have no time for the Church it's BS teachings , all of the wars suffering and misery it and all other organised religions have caused but when you find out that a member of your family was actually abused it must be really hard to swallow still being considered a member of that religion even if your not practicing.


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    #67
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    do you deny/disbelieve the basis for the existence of the british state though?
    I don't deny their basis for existence. I just deny they have any right to tell me what to do or claim me as one of their own.
    infogiver wrote: »
    He nor the priest nor anyone can't make it "unhappen". What is it ideally you would like to happen? Get a time machine and go back?
    Baptism annulled was a good one.
    infogiver wrote: »
    If I'd cut my ties with something, divorced myself so to speak, left it all behind etc
    I'd imagine I'd be actively avoiding becoming involved in any discussions, cyber or real life on that subject
    Life's too short and all that
    I'm interested in the psychology of it I suppose
    You have no experience with ex-smokers then and that psychology. Or even ex fat people. They're usually the most vocal and they have good reason to be, they're exactly the people you want to talk to because they were successful. They had a starting point that was bad, they set a goal, they achieved the goal. It only makes sense to listen to them.


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    #68
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,911 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    infogiver wrote: »
    If you feel persecuted by 90 seconds or so of a volunteer showing a woman with special needs how to make brown bread then you definitely need to get out more.
    Any complaints you have about the national broadcaster you should take to BAI
    The 4 primary schools in our medium sized country town are full of kids of all faiths and none, so that's nonsense plus there's obviously no appetite within the vast majority of parents to change something that's not broken or we'd have heard about it by now.
    Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.


    Never said I felt 'persecuted' by the angelus, that's your invention.
    This has been raised before with the BAI and they refuse to take action, too hot a potato for them and RTE are far too afraid of the backlash from the (tiny minority) of ultra-catholics to remove it either.
    You can't claim that your town is perfectly representative of everywhere else in Ireland therefore a problem doesn't exist just because it isn't occurring where you happen to be.
    There is massive unmet demand for more Educate Together schools and it is almost impossible to get a place in the existing ones due to demand.

    As expected you've ignored entirely the thornier issues like our constitution's religious bias, our judiciary, the cover-up of institutional abuse and homicide, etc.

    Then a complete strawman about people's right to practice their religion. They have every right to practice their religion. What they do not have and should not have is the right to force that religion onto others against their will.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #69
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,330 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Marty Meany triggers GDPR probe into Catholic Church records in Dublin
    The Catholic Church in Ireland is facing a data protection inquiry over its failure to delete records under the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), as requested by people who have renounced the religion.
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/marty-meany-triggers-gdpr-probe-into-catholic-church-records-in-dublin-ssxnnmddd


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    #70
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    I don’t feel any need to “officially” leave the RCC as I have left it years ago. Their rites of baptism and confirmation and sacramental activity are simply grandiose mumbo jumbo that have no effect on anything. The organisation is a make believe entity. I left it officially when I decided to leave it and I don’t need any recognition from a farcical entity like it to say that I have left it.

    Now the legal side of such an entity holding data on me is interesting and GDPR might be a very useful route to explore. They may well have a legal right to hold information given to them to process as part of their operations but we have a legal right to inspect it. And that will take a lot of time on their part. :D


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    #71
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    I had thought about contacting the RCC (local priest and/or bishop) and seeking to formally leave, but quickly came to the conclusion that contacting such a vile, crooked organisation and expecting them to actually be honest and helpful would naive at best. How on earth could you trust them given their disgusting record of abuse across the globe.

    Also I don't want anything from them, their acknowledgement means nothing to me. I don't even view the RCC as a remotely legitimate organisation, therefore they have no legitimate claim over me or anybody else.

    So finally I just decided that I was no longer a member and that's it, that's good enough for me.


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    #72
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I don’t feel any need to “officially” leave the RCC as I have left it years ago. Their rites of baptism and confirmation and sacramental activity are simply grandiose mumbo jumbo that have no effect on anything. The organisation is a make believe entity. I left it officially when I decided to leave it and I don’t need any recognition from a farcical entity like it to say that I have left it.

    Now the legal side of such an entity holding data on me is interesting and GDPR might be a very useful route to explore. They may well have a legal right to hold information given to them to process as part of their operations but we have a legal right to inspect it. And that will take a lot of time on their part. :D
    I think the interesting question that this enquiry should (hopefully) resolve is whether they have an obligation under GDPR to delete baptismal records, etc, if the data subject requests it. We've had a couple of threads on boards where the question was explored (maybe in the Legal forum?) but an authorative ruling would be helpful.

    As for you inspecting the data they hold, they are set up to deal with that. They hold it mainly so that it can be inspected when required. You can obtain a baptismal certificate from the parish in which you were baptised which shows what data they hold about your baptism; there is no charge for this. And likewise the parish in which you were confirmed will give you a certificate about that. I don't know if they keep records about first commununions; they certainly do not about first confessions. They keep records of marriages and funerals, of course, and you can get details of that. There's generally no charge for any of this.

    You'll have to apply separately to each parish that holds a register entry about you - records are kept at the parish level; the diocese has no data about you (unless you are a priest of the diocese, but I'm guessing not :).)


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    #73
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    Marty Meany triggers GDPR probe into Catholic Church records in Dublin

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/marty-meany-triggers-gdpr-probe-into-catholic-church-records-in-dublin-ssxnnmddd

    The article is paywalled.

    Far be it from me to encourage copyright infringement, but anybody want to give us the gist of it?


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    #74
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I think the interesting question that this enquiry should (hopefully) resolve is whether they have an obligation under GDPR to delete baptismal records, etc, if the data subject requests it. We've had a couple of threads on boards where the question was explored (maybe in the Legal forum?) but an authorative ruling would be helpful.

    As for you inspecting the data they hold, they are set up to deal with that. They hold it mainly so that it can be inspected when required. You can obtain a baptismal certificate from the parish in which you were baptised which shows what data they hold about your baptism; there is no charge for this. And likewise the parish in which you were confirmed will give you a certificate about that. I don't know if they keep records about first commununions; they certainly do not about first confessions. They keep records of marriages and funerals, of course, and you can get details of that. There's generally no charge for any of this.

    You'll have to apply separately to each parish that holds a register entry about you - records are kept at the parish level; the diocese has no data about you (unless you are a priest of the diocese, but I'm guessing not :).)

    You are confused about a copy of information and a RCC certificate. As you well know Churches hold far more information that that. You’ve got me thinking about their certificates of nothingness. I’m laughing at the thought. Thank you.


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    #75
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    You are confused about a copy of information and a RCC certificate. As you well know Churches hold far more information that that. You’ve got me thinking about their certificates of nothingness. I’m laughing at the thought. Thank you.
    What information do you think the church holds about you apart from sacramental records? Serious question.


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    #76
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    What information do you think the church holds about you apart from sacramental records? Serious question.

    “Do you think”. You sound like someone well versed in church matters and a bit of law.

    You know the old story about the woman who turns up at the priests house to get a Mass card signed and the housekeeper says that’ll be twenty euros. The woman says she thought it was a tenner. And the housekeeper says that’s for those who return their Sunday envelopes. So the answer to your question as you well know but for the benefit of others is that they know who lives where and who contributes and who doesn’t. They can tell you who’s at church and who isn’t.


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    #77
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    “Do you think”. You sound like someone well versed in church matters and a bit of law.

    You know the old story about the woman who turns up at the priests house to get a Mass card signed and the housekeeper says that’ll be twenty euros. The woman says she thought it was a tenner. And the housekeeper says that’s for those who return their Sunday envelopes. So the answer to your question as you well know but for the benefit of others is that they know who lives where and who contributes and who doesn’t. They can tell you who’s at church and who isn’t.
    I don't know that story; I've never heard it. But for the purposes of the discusison I'll take your word for it.

    I take the point that parishes will generally have records of financial contributions. While there may be a broad awareness of who is, and who is not, a regular attender I doubt very much that there are records kept on the subject of the kind that would be amenable to the requirements of GDPR.

    Similarly they know, more or less, who lives in the parish, but they don't keep comprehensive records on the subject. Why would they? If they want hard information they'll consult records kept by other people, like the phone book or the electoral register.


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    #78
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I don't know that story; I've never heard it. But for the purposes of the discusison I'll take your word for it.

    I take the point that parishes will generally have records of financial contributions. While there may be a broad awareness of who is, and who is not, a regular attender I doubt very much that there are records kept on the subject of the kind that would be amenable to the requirements of GDPR.

    Similarly they know, more or less, who lives in the parish, but they don't keep comprehensive records on the subject. Why would they? If they want hard information they'll consult records kept by other people, like the phone book or the electoral register.

    “General awareness”. They deliver boxes of numbered envelopes to named persons at specific addresses. GDPR data subject requests will tear lots of priests away from watching tv, golfing, writing alleluia verses, comparing designs of surplices, gossiping and posting on boards!


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    #79
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    “General awareness”. They deliver boxes of numbered envelopes to named persons at specific addresses. GDPR data subject requests will tear lots of priests away from watching tv, golfing, writing alleluia verses, comparing designs of surplices, gossiping and posting on boards!
    They may not now retain records of the addresses to which they delivered boxes more than a couple of years ago; why would they? They are more likely to retain records of who returned envelopes, but even these are of little use after people have left the parish (or ceased to return envelopes) and they are not records which anyone requires them to keep (in the way that they are required to keep, e.g., sacramental records). My guess is that they would be junked fairly quickly.

    But, yeah, by all means write to all the Parish Priest of all the Parished in which you have lived, giving them the relevant dates and details of your address in the parish and asking them for all the data they hold. You'll get your sacramental certificates, if any, plus any data they may have kept on any parish dues which you may have paid. My guess, though, is that you will spend more time on this exercise than any of them will.

    SFAIK, the purpose of the Data Commissioner's enquiry is not to establish what data dioceses hold, but whether they are entitled to hold data if the data subject objects. From the newspaper reports, the enquiry is into data held by dioceses, rather than parishes, and I don't know that dioceses do hold much or any data about individuals who are not clerics, employees, etc of the diocese.


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    #80
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    They may not now retain records of the addresses to which they delivered boxes more than a couple of years ago; why would they? They are more likely to retain records of who returned envelopes, but even these are of little use after people have left the parish (or ceased to return envelopes) and they are not records which anyone requires them to keep (in the way that they are required to keep, e.g., sacramental records). My guess is that they would be junked fairly quickly.

    But, yeah, by all means write to all the Parish Priest of all the Parished in which you have lived, giving them the relevant dates and details of your address in the parish and asking them for all the data they hold. You'll get your sacramental certificates, if any, plus any data they may have kept on any parish dues which you may have paid. My guess, though, is that you will spend more time on this exercise than any of them will.

    SFAIK, the purpose of the Data Commissioner's enquiry is not to establish what data dioceses hold, but whether they are entitled to hold data if the data subject objects. From the newspaper reports, the enquiry is into data held by dioceses, rather than parishes, and I don't know that dioceses do hold much or any data about individuals who are not clerics, employees, etc of the diocese.

    A delightful three paragraphs of conjecture. You’ll excuse me, my WhatsApp group is discussing the revolutionary idea of an extra pleat in a surplice.


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    #81
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,911 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    My cynical hat on says this GDPR thing is doomed to go nowhere, but...there is the delicious possibility that it will go somewhere :)

    Then again, if they can cover up 800 politically awkward illegal burials they can cover up anything.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #82
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    A delightful three paragraphs of conjecture.
    It's no more conjectural than yours, but my conjectures seem to me reasonable - and I offer some reasons for them - whereas your seem to be driven more by wishful thinking.
    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    You’ll excuse me, my WhatsApp group is discussing the revolutionary idea of an extra pleat in a surplice.
    Whatever turns you on, I guess. I myself prefer more manly pursuits, like, um ... football! Yes, football! And hurling!


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    #83
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    It's no more conjectural than yours, but my conjectures seem to me reasonable - and I offer some reasons for them - whereas your seem to be driven more by wishful thinking.


    Whatever turns you on, I guess. I myself prefer more manly pursuits, like, um ... football! Yes, football! And hurling!

    Your “reasons” are more conjecture. I’m looking at the rest of a box of envelopes from the local RCC on my mantelpiece with my name and address on it that I’ve got left to burn. Never darkened their door. Yet they have my name address and it’s matched to an envelope number.

    Enjoy your manly pursuit.


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    #84
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    Your “reasons” are more conjecture. I’m looking at the rest of a box of envelopes from the local RCC on my mantelpiece with my name and address on it that I’ve got left to burn. Never darkened their door. Yet they have my name address and it’s matched to an envelope number.

    Enjoy your manly pursuit.

    To be fair, I get junk mail every day with my name and address on it most days. Theoretically, I should only be getting stuff from companies where I've expressly given them an opt-in notification. I'd guess the most the data protection commissioner is likely to do to the RCC is get them to send opt-in letters to parishioners and subsequently have them remove anyone not on them from their mailing lists.

    If it could be shown that they're actually using some kind of centralised database and feeding the results back to the Vatican for some kind of in-depth analysis there might be some cause for concern but I reckon its as likely some Mrs Doyle types with an Excel spreadsheet in a back room of the parochial house. I'd be far more concerned with what the externally funded pro-life groups and Iona type are at myself from a GDPR perspective.


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    #85
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    smacl wrote: »
    To be fair, I get junk mail every day with my name and address on it most days. Theoretically, I should only be getting stuff from companies where I've expressly given them an opt-in notification. I'd guess the most the data protection commissioner is likely to do to the RCC is get them to send opt-in letters to parishioners and subsequently have them remove anyone not on them from their mailing lists.

    If it could be shown that they're actually using some kind of centralised database and feeding the results back to the Vatican for some kind of in-depth analysis there might be some cause for concern but I reckon its as likely some Mrs Doyle types with an Excel spreadsheet in a back room of the parochial house. I'd be far more concerned with what the externally funded pro-life groups and Iona type are at myself from a GDPR perspective.

    You’re missing the point of data protection, GDPR and its use in forcing more compliance and more time spent in admin in the RCC. All filing systems manual or digital are under the remit of DP once you hold personal details. You must have a DP policy published. You must comply with a request from a data subject. It is utterly and completely irrelevant and erroneous to think it only applies to national or international bodies. It applies to the nosy housekeeper too.

    Now the point of this discussion wasn’t about “causes for concern”. It was about no longer being able to leave the church “officially”. A flood of DP requests and complaints about parishes and dioceses not complying would be a nice little rod on the back of a recalcitrant self righteous and absurd organization.


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    #86
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    You’re missing the point of data protection, GDPR and its use in forcing more compliance and more time spent in admin in the RCC. All filing systems manual or digital are under the remit of DP once you hold personal details. You must have a DP policy published. You must comply with a request from a data subject. It is utterly and completely irrelevant and erroneous to think it only applies to national or international bodies. It applies to the nosy housekeeper too.

    Now the point of this discussion wasn’t about “causes for concern”. It was about no longer being able to leave the church “officially”. A flood of DP requests and complaints about parishes and dioceses not complying would be a nice little rod on the back of a recalcitrant self righteous and absurd organization.

    Not seeing it to be honest. For example, I was never Christened and have never been a member of any church but we still get a little envelope in the door every now and again looking for church dues. This goes in the bin along with the rest of the junk mail. Getting begging letters from the church is no more than getting begging letters from any other source, it doesn't imply you're in any way affiliated to them.

    I think for GDPR to be of any relevance in this context you'd need to show some kind of evidence that the RCC is asserting that you are a member of their church. As per Bannasidhe's post here I think being able to amend baptismal records to show you're no longer a member of the church makes more sense that demanding the records be purged via data protection rights.


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    #87
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    smacl wrote: »
    Not seeing it to be honest. For example, I was never Christened and have never been a member of any church but we still get a little envelope in the door every now and again looking for church dues. This goes in the bin along with the rest of the junk mail. Getting begging letters from the church is no more than getting begging letters from any other source, it doesn't imply you're in any way affiliated to them.

    I think for GDPR to be of any relevance in this context you'd need to show some kind of evidence that the RCC is asserting that you are a member of their church. As per Bannasidhe's post here I think being able to amend baptismal records to show you're no longer a member of the church makes more sense that demanding the records be purged via data protection rights.

    I know you’re not. I’ve already pointed out the legal basis for compliance with DP legislation which you have set aside for your own invention of “affiliation”. I think we’re done.


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    #88
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I know you’re not. I’ve already pointed out the legal basis for compliance with DP legislation which you have set aside for your own invention of “affiliation”. I think we’re done.

    Where exactly have you pointed out the legal basis for compliance?


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    #89
    KWAG2019
    Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    smacl wrote: »
    Where exactly have you pointed out the legal basis for compliance?

    All filing systems manual or digital are under the remit of DP once you hold personal details. You must have a DP policy published. You must comply with a request from a data subject.
    Post #85
    Or you could google if you think I’m making it up:

    Processing
    The term “processing” refers to any operation or set of operations performed on personal data. Processing includes storing, collecting, retrieving, using, combining, erasing and destroying personal data, and can involve automated or manual operations.

    You can find a wealth of information on www.dataprotection.ie. Or here’s a working link: http://www.dataprotection.ie

    I’m sure you’ll understand that copying and pasting is a nuisance for me and I’d be confident you can find that for yourself.


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    #90
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,911 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    smacl wrote: »
    Not seeing it to be honest. For example, I was never Christened and have never been a member of any church but we still get a little envelope in the door every now and again looking for church dues. This goes in the bin along with the rest of the junk mail. Getting begging letters from the church is no more than getting begging letters from any other source, it doesn't imply you're in any way affiliated to them.

    Well, not really - the boxes of weekly donation envelopes each have a serial number on them which is associated with a particular house and they do keep records of how much is given. For a few years after we moved in to our current home, we kept getting them - binned them - but somewhere there was a record that house X on street Y used to be a donor and should keep getting the envelopes.

    Back in my mam's house, we used to have disinterested female teens knocking on the door every week - "church k'lek'tion" - if I'd been a few years older and craftier I might have devised a revenue-sharing scheme - or something even more sinful :cool:

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #91
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Well, not really - the boxes of weekly donation envelopes each have a serial number on them which is associated with a particular house and they do keep records of how much is given. For a few years after we moved in to our current home, we kept getting them - binned them - but somewhere there was a record that house X on street Y used to be a donor and should keep getting the envelopes.
    What you describe here suggest that they don't have your name - or indeed anyone's name - associated with the house or the serial number on the envelope. Whereas what KWAG describes is envelopes with his name on them, as well as his address. Evidently, different parishes use different systems, involving the collection and retention of different data.

    KWAG, so far as I can make out, isn't actually interested in the details of the data held on him. His purpose is not so much to find out what data various parishes have about him as to annoy them and impose a burden on them by making them deal with and respond to requests about data. His point is that if lots of people did this, it would be a pain for the church, and presumably this would be so even if 95% of the responses were "we can't find that we hold any data about you".

    As to which I have two thoughts. First, yes, if lots of people did this it would be an annoyance and a pain for all the Mrs Doyles with their excel spreadsheets. But, secondly, good luck trying to get lots of people to do this.

    Remember countmeout? Who doesn't remember countmeout! They operated for a period of about 5 years from 2006 to 2011. At the time, Catholic canon law had a procedure for recording your "defection" from the Catholic church that you had to follow if you wanted the church to recognise your defection for certain purposes of Canon Law. Countmeout saw this - correctly, I think - as an opportunity for people to create a formal, church-recognised record of their departure, and they reckoned there was a demand for this from ex-Catholics who either felt the need for an acknowledgement from the church, or simply wanted to bear witness, to coin a prhase, to their rejection of the church. So they ran a website providing instructions, forms, etc to assist people in completing the process.

    The website published figures on useage and, before it disappeared, in my nerdish way I posted about the figures here. The first paragraph is the relevant bit.

    Right. I competely understand why people would want to record their departure from the church, and/or would want some kind of acknowledgement. And yet, at a time when that was easy, and was made easier by the support of countmeout, it seems that only a tiny number of people actually bothered to do it. Between the 2006 and 2011 censuses, the number of self-identifying Catholics (in the Republic) in Ireland fell by more than 100,000 (at a time when the total population rose by more than 160,000). But only 531 people (in the whole island) completed the countmeout process. While others may have completed the canonical process without using countmeout, I'm guessing that number was even smaller.

    Which makes me think that the number of people willing to complete the much more bothersome task of writing to every parish they have ever lived in and supplying their name, their address within the parish and the dates when they lived there in support of a GDPR data request in order to annoy the church is not going to be large.


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