Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Why? Because we live in a society where 96% of primary schools have a religious 'ethos' yet are funded by the taxpayer Where religious discrimination is legal, even against kids of the age of 4 trying to get into a school Where some hospitals, also funded by the taxpayer, refuse to provide legal reproductive health services Where the consititution is openly theistic and certain offices of state require religious oaths Where those who choose not to swear on a bible in court are regarded as oddballs at best Where the politicians with rare exceptions kowtow to religious leaders at all times Where crimes committed by the leaders of religious orders and bishops go uninvestigated, never mind charged and convicted Where a yard containing hundreds of human corpses whose deaths were never properly recorded, placed there within living memory, is not regarded as a crime scene Where our national broadcaster carries calls to prayer every day Where our national broadcaster asserts religious claims as fact on a frequent basis and these claims are rarely if ever challeged Where a statement of non-belief on the TV is still regarded as shocking by some on here :rolleyes: etc.etc. How can we leave religion alone when religion will not leave us alone?
infogiver wrote: » If I'd cut my ties with something, divorced myself so to speak, left it all behind etc I'd imagine I'd be actively avoiding becoming involved in any discussions, cyber or real life on that subject Life's too short and all that I'm interested in the psychology of it I suppose It's like "I'm leaving...but one last thing..." I've left things behind me in my time, with good reasons, like you. Men, jobs, friendships etc and once I've made up my mind there's no turning back. It's as if that person that job that relationship never existed. I don't properly understand the born again atheists continually returning to the subject that caused them so much pain and anger. That's all
infogiver wrote: » If you feel persecuted by 90 seconds or so of a volunteer showing a woman with special needs how to make brown bread then you definitely need to get out more. Any complaints you have about the national broadcaster you should take to BAI The 4 primary schools in our medium sized country town are full of kids of all faiths and none, so that's nonsense plus there's obviously no appetite within the vast majority of parents to change something that's not broken or we'd have heard about it by now.Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.
infogiver wrote: » Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.
oldrnwisr wrote: » As TheChizler and others have pointed out there is an argument to be made here about validating the church's rules by buying into them. However, as an ex-Catholic who has been through the countmeout process, there was a certain element of closure in telling the church that not only did you no longer believe their teachings but that you were sufficiently repulsed by their behaviour that you formally signalled your intention to sever all ties. It's not just about not believing but letting the church know that you don't believe.
magicbastarder wrote: » do you deny/disbelieve the basis for the existence of the british state though?
infogiver wrote: » He nor the priest nor anyone can't make it "unhappen". What is it ideally you would like to happen? Get a time machine and go back?
infogiver wrote: » If I'd cut my ties with something, divorced myself so to speak, left it all behind etc I'd imagine I'd be actively avoiding becoming involved in any discussions, cyber or real life on that subject Life's too short and all that I'm interested in the psychology of it I suppose
infogiver wrote: » If you feel persecuted by 90 seconds or so of a volunteer showing a woman with special needs how to make brown bread then you definitely need to get out more. Any complaints you have about the national broadcaster you should take to BAI The 4 primary schools in our medium sized country town are full of kids of all faiths and none, so that's nonsense plus there's obviously no appetite within the vast majority of parents to change something that's not broken or we'd have heard about it by now. Wether you like it or not people have the right to practice their religion and that will never change.
The Catholic Church in Ireland is facing a data protection inquiry over its failure to delete records under the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), as requested by people who have renounced the religion.
KWAG2019 wrote: » I don’t feel any need to “officially” leave the RCC as I have left it years ago. Their rites of baptism and confirmation and sacramental activity are simply grandiose mumbo jumbo that have no effect on anything. The organisation is a make believe entity. I left it officially when I decided to leave it and I don’t need any recognition from a farcical entity like it to say that I have left it. Now the legal side of such an entity holding data on me is interesting and GDPR might be a very useful route to explore. They may well have a legal right to hold information given to them to process as part of their operations but we have a legal right to inspect it. And that will take a lot of time on their part.
magicbastarder wrote: » Marty Meany triggers GDPR probe into Catholic Church records in Dublinhttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/marty-meany-triggers-gdpr-probe-into-catholic-church-records-in-dublin-ssxnnmddd
Peregrinus wrote: » I think the interesting question that this enquiry should (hopefully) resolve is whether they have an obligation under GDPR to delete baptismal records, etc, if the data subject requests it. We've had a couple of threads on boards where the question was explored (maybe in the Legal forum?) but an authorative ruling would be helpful. As for you inspecting the data they hold, they are set up to deal with that. They hold it mainly so that it can be inspected when required. You can obtain a baptismal certificate from the parish in which you were baptised which shows what data they hold about your baptism; there is no charge for this. And likewise the parish in which you were confirmed will give you a certificate about that. I don't know if they keep records about first commununions; they certainly do not about first confessions. They keep records of marriages and funerals, of course, and you can get details of that. There's generally no charge for any of this. You'll have to apply separately to each parish that holds a register entry about you - records are kept at the parish level; the diocese has no data about you (unless you are a priest of the diocese, but I'm guessing not .)
KWAG2019 wrote: » You are confused about a copy of information and a RCC certificate. As you well know Churches hold far more information that that. You’ve got me thinking about their certificates of nothingness. I’m laughing at the thought. Thank you.
Peregrinus wrote: » What information do you think the church holds about you apart from sacramental records? Serious question.
KWAG2019 wrote: » “Do you think”. You sound like someone well versed in church matters and a bit of law. You know the old story about the woman who turns up at the priests house to get a Mass card signed and the housekeeper says that’ll be twenty euros. The woman says she thought it was a tenner. And the housekeeper says that’s for those who return their Sunday envelopes. So the answer to your question as you well know but for the benefit of others is that they know who lives where and who contributes and who doesn’t. They can tell you who’s at church and who isn’t.
Peregrinus wrote: » I don't know that story; I've never heard it. But for the purposes of the discusison I'll take your word for it. I take the point that parishes will generally have records of financial contributions. While there may be a broad awareness of who is, and who is not, a regular attender I doubt very much that there are records kept on the subject of the kind that would be amenable to the requirements of GDPR. Similarly they know, more or less, who lives in the parish, but they don't keep comprehensive records on the subject. Why would they? If they want hard information they'll consult records kept by other people, like the phone book or the electoral register.
KWAG2019 wrote: » “General awareness”. They deliver boxes of numbered envelopes to named persons at specific addresses. GDPR data subject requests will tear lots of priests away from watching tv, golfing, writing alleluia verses, comparing designs of surplices, gossiping and posting on boards!
Peregrinus wrote: » They may not now retain records of the addresses to which they delivered boxes more than a couple of years ago; why would they? They are more likely to retain records of who returned envelopes, but even these are of little use after people have left the parish (or ceased to return envelopes) and they are not records which anyone requires them to keep (in the way that they are required to keep, e.g., sacramental records). My guess is that they would be junked fairly quickly. But, yeah, by all means write to all the Parish Priest of all the Parished in which you have lived, giving them the relevant dates and details of your address in the parish and asking them for all the data they hold. You'll get your sacramental certificates, if any, plus any data they may have kept on any parish dues which you may have paid. My guess, though, is that you will spend more time on this exercise than any of them will.SFAIK, the purpose of the Data Commissioner's enquiry is not to establish what data dioceses hold, but whether they are entitled to hold data if the data subject objects. From the newspaper reports, the enquiry is into data held by dioceses, rather than parishes, and I don't know that dioceses do hold much or any data about individuals who are not clerics, employees, etc of the diocese.
KWAG2019 wrote: » A delightful three paragraphs of conjecture.
KWAG2019 wrote: » You’ll excuse me, my WhatsApp group is discussing the revolutionary idea of an extra pleat in a surplice.
Peregrinus wrote: » It's no more conjectural than yours, but my conjectures seem to me reasonable - and I offer some reasons for them - whereas your seem to be driven more by wishful thinking. Whatever turns you on, I guess. I myself prefer more manly pursuits, like, um ... football! Yes, football! And hurling!
KWAG2019 wrote: » Your “reasons” are more conjecture. I’m looking at the rest of a box of envelopes from the local RCC on my mantelpiece with my name and address on it that I’ve got left to burn. Never darkened their door. Yet they have my name address and it’s matched to an envelope number. Enjoy your manly pursuit.
smacl wrote: » To be fair, I get junk mail every day with my name and address on it most days. Theoretically, I should only be getting stuff from companies where I've expressly given them an opt-in notification. I'd guess the most the data protection commissioner is likely to do to the RCC is get them to send opt-in letters to parishioners and subsequently have them remove anyone not on them from their mailing lists. If it could be shown that they're actually using some kind of centralised database and feeding the results back to the Vatican for some kind of in-depth analysis there might be some cause for concern but I reckon its as likely some Mrs Doyle types with an Excel spreadsheet in a back room of the parochial house. I'd be far more concerned with what the externally funded pro-life groups and Iona type are at myself from a GDPR perspective.
KWAG2019 wrote: » You’re missing the point of data protection, GDPR and its use in forcing more compliance and more time spent in admin in the RCC. All filing systems manual or digital are under the remit of DP once you hold personal details. You must have a DP policy published. You must comply with a request from a data subject. It is utterly and completely irrelevant and erroneous to think it only applies to national or international bodies. It applies to the nosy housekeeper too. Now the point of this discussion wasn’t about “causes for concern”. It was about no longer being able to leave the church “officially”. A flood of DP requests and complaints about parishes and dioceses not complying would be a nice little rod on the back of a recalcitrant self righteous and absurd organization.
smacl wrote: » Not seeing it to be honest. For example, I was never Christened and have never been a member of any church but we still get a little envelope in the door every now and again looking for church dues. This goes in the bin along with the rest of the junk mail. Getting begging letters from the church is no more than getting begging letters from any other source, it doesn't imply you're in any way affiliated to them. I think for GDPR to be of any relevance in this context you'd need to show some kind of evidence that the RCC is asserting that you are a member of their church. As per Bannasidhe's post here I think being able to amend baptismal records to show you're no longer a member of the church makes more sense that demanding the records be purged via data protection rights.
KWAG2019 wrote: » I know you’re not. I’ve already pointed out the legal basis for compliance with DP legislation which you have set aside for your own invention of “affiliation”. I think we’re done.
smacl wrote: » Where exactly have you pointed out the legal basis for compliance?
smacl wrote: » Not seeing it to be honest. For example, I was never Christened and have never been a member of any church but we still get a little envelope in the door every now and again looking for church dues. This goes in the bin along with the rest of the junk mail. Getting begging letters from the church is no more than getting begging letters from any other source, it doesn't imply you're in any way affiliated to them.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Well, not really - the boxes of weekly donation envelopes each have a serial number on them which is associated with a particular house and they do keep records of how much is given. For a few years after we moved in to our current home, we kept getting them - binned them - but somewhere there was a record that house X on street Y used to be a donor and should keep getting the envelopes.
