Random thoughts on measuring Red Light Jumping

RayCun · 25-04-2019 10:56am

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't think licensing of cyclists is feasible or necessary but I do think that it should be mandatory for cyclists to carry a form if id. If someone is stopped for breaking the law guards should be able to establish the identity quickly and issue a fine.

There isn't a national ID card - and there would be a lot of resistance to introducing one, let alone making it a requirement to produce it on request. The same problem arises for littering, or other petty crimes where the punishment would be a fine rather than incarceration.

Easier to confiscate the bike.

meeeeh · 25-04-2019 10:56am

Rechuchote wrote: »

It's an offence to give a wrong name to a garda; so unusual an offence that I remember one prosecution of a cyclist for this in the last 20 years.

I'm sure nobody does it like nobody breaks the red lights.

Rechuchote · 25-04-2019 10:57am

My stupidometer has just broken; going out to get it mended now.

RayCun · 25-04-2019 11:00am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Otherwise you can just take your chances that the driver sitting up in a high vehicle can see you when he starts off at the green...

Either the driver in the high vehicle arrived at the lights after you, in which case they could see you as they drove up.
Or they arrived before you, so if you are worried about being invisible you could stay behind them.

Chips Lovell · 25-04-2019 11:03am

magicbastarder wrote: »

the law already states that if a garda stops a cyclist for a traffic violation, and the cyclist cannot prove their identity in a way that satisfies the garda, the garda is allowed confiscate the bike.

well, i have heard this several times, i must try to see if a primary source exists.

Road Traffic Act 2010
80.— The following section is substituted for section 108 of the Principal Act:
"108.— A member of the Garda Sh may demand of a person in charge of a pedal cycle whom the member suspects of having committed any crime or offence or of having been concerned or involved in a collision or other event in a public place causing injury to person or property, the name and address and date of birth of such person, and if such a person refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading, the member may take the cycle, by reasonable force if necessary, and retain it until such time as he or she is satisfied as to the identity of such person".

meeeeh · 25-04-2019 11:09am

RayCun wrote: »

There isn't a national ID card - and there would be a lot of resistance to introducing one, let alone making it a requirement to produce it on request. The same problem arises for littering, or other petty crimes where the punishment would be a fine rather than incarceration.

Easier to confiscate the bike.

It's a complete waste of time to try to confiscate the bike. Nobody is whinging about needing to produce a form of identification when in the car, or opening a bank account and so on. If people want to use the roads they should be able to produce an id. I know Irish aren't fond of national ids and I'm fine with that but it does mean people can do whatever they feel like on the roads and dump rubbish wherever they feel like it. (I'm not saying where I was doesn't have serious problems on the roads but frankly I don't like drivers behave towards cyclists in Ireland and I don't like how cyclists behave in the cities. Irish road safety stats are good but I can't help to feel they are slightly flattered by empty roads outside cities. )

Chips Lovell · 25-04-2019 11:13am

I think if the cops had a problem identifying lawbreaking cyclists, they'd say so. They've certainly had no issue handing out FCPNs since they were introduced.

Requiring cyclists to register themselves or carry ID is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Money down the drain, in other words.

Fighting Tao · 25-04-2019 11:14am

Charles Ingles wrote: »

I see it hundreds of times a Day.
Cyclists should to be licensed , insurance and have a licence plate visible on their bikes.
This would stop the lawlessness we see on the roads every day.

There is a strong smell of a farm right now. Anyone with a bull nearby?

If you are going to exaggerate at least make it plausible.

magicbastarder · 25-04-2019 11:16am

meeeeh wrote: »

Nobody is whinging about needing to produce a form of identification when in the car

no, because it's already explicit in law. you need to be able to produce a driving licence if requested.

RayCun · 25-04-2019 11:17am

meeeeh wrote: »

Nobody is whinging about needing to produce a form of identification when in the car, or opening a bank account and so on.

You don't need to have your licence with you when you're in the car. They'll tell you to bring it to the station next day.

Opening a bank account is a planned event.

The only forms of photo ID I own are my passport and driving licence. I don't usually carry either of them.

Tenzor07 · 25-04-2019 11:20am

magicbastarder wrote: »

no, because it's already explicit in law. you need to be able to produce a driving licence if requested.

I've heard that the Gardai are requesting drivers licenses from those they stop on eScooters, telling them they are using a vehicle without tax or insurance..

RayCun · 25-04-2019 11:20am

RayCun wrote: »

You don't need to have your licence with you when you're in the car. They'll tell you to bring it to the station next day.

I see that's changed now... will need to start leaving my licence in the car

RayCun · 25-04-2019 11:21am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I've heard that the Gardai are requesting drivers licenses from those they stop on eScooters, telling them they are using a vehicle without tax or insurance..

Legally they are.
eScooters are powered vehicles, and don't fall under the exemption for pedelecs.

magicbastarder · 25-04-2019 11:23am

RayCun wrote: »

I see that's changed now... will need to start leaving my licence in the car

and just beware that if you *are* stopped in a car and do not have your licence on you, and are breathalysed - you will need to blow under the limit for learner drivers.
as you are not able to prove you are a fully qualified driver, the unqualified limit is applied, so the garda may order you out of the car.

Tenzor07 · 25-04-2019 11:26am

RayCun wrote: »

Legally they are.
eScooters are powered vehicles, and don't fall under the exemption for pedelecs.

Is it not the case that because you have to push them to start them off and the motor assistance kicks in after that, then they aren't solely powered vehicles?

magicbastarder · 25-04-2019 11:29am

failing that test means you fail.
passing that test does not however qualify it as a pedelec, it's just one of the basic tests they can apply.

buffalo · 25-04-2019 11:30am

meeeeh wrote: »

I know Irish aren't fond of national ids and I'm fine with that but it does mean people can do whatever they feel like on the roads and dump rubbish wherever they feel like it.

Do you think flytippers will leave their ID card at the scene of the crime?

plodder · 25-04-2019 11:34am

RayCun wrote: »

I see that's changed now... will need to start leaving my licence in the car

That's been the (letter of the) law for a long time. It's a bit of an annoyance for two car families when you might end up driving the other car, and you still have the old style license. So, I think there is often a bit of latitude given. I was accompanying my daughter once when she was a learner, and we were stopped. So, by rights the guard needed to see the license, rather than just proof of identity but he let us go.

I wasn't aware of that provision where a guard could confiscate a bike if not satisfied about a cyclist's identity. I think it's quite reasonable and if anything, deals with this notion that cyclists are unaccountable.

meeeeh · 25-04-2019 11:39am

buffalo wrote: »

Do you think flytippers will leave their ID card at the scene of the crime?

There is plenty of scum who drop their cigarette buds, chewing gums, wrappings or their dog waste anywhere and in full view of wardens. Ireland is terribly littered and similar to red light jumping it is just accepted and dealt with a shrug. Because apparently nothing can be done.

RayCun · 25-04-2019 11:39am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Is it not the case that because you have to push them to start them off and the motor assistance kicks in after that, then they aren't solely powered vehicles?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vatJ4NiglA

not solely powered, guv!

buffalo · 25-04-2019 11:53am

meeeeh wrote: »

There is plenty of scum who drop their cigarette buds, chewing gums, wrappings or their dog waste anywhere and in full view of wardens. Ireland is terribly littered and similar to red light jumping it is just accepted and dealt with a shrug. Because apparently nothing can be done.

https://www.thejournal.ie/over-7000-litter-fines-were-issued-around-the-country-last-year-4394105-Dec2018/

How many littler wardens have we got in the country?

meeeeh · 25-04-2019 12:03pm

buffalo wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/over-7000-litter-fines-were-issued-around-the-country-last-year-4394105-Dec2018/

How many littler wardens have we got in the country?

I don't know but anyone who hiked anywhere in Central or Northern Europe will notice the difference and how certain things just aren't accepted.

Seth Brundle · 25-04-2019 12:05pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Is it not the case that because you have to push them to start them off and the motor assistance kicks in after that, then they aren't solely powered vehicles?

They are still regarded as mechanically propelled vehicles regardless of how someone sets off!

buffalo · 25-04-2019 12:17pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I don't know but anyone who hiked anywhere in Central or Northern Europe will notice the difference and how certain things just aren't accepted.

Do you think it's the ID cards that make the difference?

Tenzor07 · 25-04-2019 12:23pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They are still regarded as mechanically propelled vehicles regardless of how someone sets off!

The road traffic act 1961 needs to be updated so as to classify eScooters as not being vehicles equivalent to motor cars etc.

meeeeh · 25-04-2019 12:25pm

buffalo wrote: »

Do you think it's the ID cards that make the difference?

I don't know maybe Irish people are just filthy?

That was sarcasm btw but if fines were issued to correct names and addresses and collected at the source by revenue (wages, welfare) it might make a difference.

rubadub · 25-04-2019 1:15pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

So that's one "safety" issue. Have you any more?

I break 2 lights regularly for safety, taking off just before they turn green. It is very common, loads of other cyclists do the same on one of the lights at whites cross on the N11. This is for safety to get ahead of the traffic from behind which can be right up behind you, I had my chain snap a few times taking off and was glad I was that bit ahead. I doubt many are doing it to save the 1-2seconds.

Most RLJ I see is to save time or not break momentum though, and the vast majority of it I see is done safely.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The road traffic act 1961 needs to be updated so as to classify eScooters as not being vehicles equivalent to motor cars etc.

they pretty much equate them to low power lightweight motorbikes.

Some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh and claim they are not MPVs
https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/

What is the legal status of electric/battery powered scooters, unicycles and skateboards in Ireland?

Electric vehicles or any other Mechanically Propelled Vehicles (MPV) do not need to be taxed or insured in Ireland as long as they don’t go over 45 mph. All our products travel below 45 mph. However, if any electric vehicles go over 45 mph, then those would need to get tax and insurance like a regular car or motorbike.

Tenzor07 · 25-04-2019 1:25pm

rubadub wrote: »

.Some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh and claim they are not MPVs
https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/

I'm almost sure that's a misprint and they mean 45kph.

RayCun · 25-04-2019 1:32pm

rubadub wrote: »

Some sellers are telling customers

gosh, I wonder why?

Seth Brundle · 25-04-2019 2:24pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The road traffic act 1961 needs to be updated so as to classify eScooters as not being vehicles equivalent to motor cars etc.

Have you raised this with your TDs?

rubadub wrote: »

I break 2 lights regularly for safety, taking off just before they turn green. It is very common, loads of other cyclists do the same on one of the lights at whites cross on the N11. This is for safety to get ahead of the traffic from behind which can be right up behind you, I had my chain snap a few times taking off and was glad I was that bit ahead. I doubt many are doing it to save the 1-2seconds.

Understood but I don't believe that this is what was being referred to.

rubadub wrote: »

they pretty much equate them to low power lightweight motorbikes.

Some sellers are telling customers the limit is 45mph/72.4kmh and claim they are not MPVs
https://gyrowheel.ie/faq/

...but the sellers are (AFAIK) mis-selling as a max speed isn't listed within the Road Traffic Acts.
The 1961 Act states:

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—
(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,
(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,
but not including a tramcar or other vehicle running on permanent rails;

(2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

I'm not aware if this was updated.

Tenzor07 · 25-04-2019 2:31pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Have you raised this with your TDs?
.

Start a one man campaign? Nah.

cdaly_ · 25-04-2019 4:17pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The 1961 Act states:

(2) Where a vehicle, which, apart from this subsection, would be a mechanically propelled vehicle, stands so substantially disabled (either through accident, breakdown or the removal of the engine or other such vital part) as to be no longer capable of being propelled mechanically, it shall be regarded for the purposes of this Act as not being a mechanically propelled vehicle.

This suggests that removal of the battery from your scooter renders it no longer an MPV. So you could: remove the battery, place it in a backpack and run wires to the soles of your shoes and stand on suitable contact points on the scooter plate. "No Guard, it's just a scooter. Try it out yourself"...

Effects · 25-04-2019 8:12pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i posted this over on the commuting and transport forum earlier, was a slightly odd situation to see a driver berating a cyclist for *not* breaking a red:

Yeah, people break that one all the time. I can't understand why it's not a solid green with a filter at the end. There's often nothing coming from the inbound direction, you can see for a few hundred meters straight ahead, yet you have to wait for the filter.

plodder · 25-04-2019 9:25pm

Effects wrote: »

Yeah, people break that one all the time. I can't understand why it's not a solid green with a filter at the end. There's often nothing coming from the inbound direction, you can see for a few hundred meters straight ahead, yet you have to wait for the filter.

I either cycle or drive through there every day. It has to be one of the most lawless junctions in the city. The reason it's a filter I think, is that while there might not be traffic coming straight across from Howth direction, there is nearly always traffic turning left onto Alfie Byrne (that has to yield) so the filter gives them some priority but they end up having to yield to the illegally right-turning cars. A while back I reported a lunatic who was doing this but additionally by driving up the inside lane and cutting into the top of the turn right turn lane at the last second.

plodder · 25-04-2019 9:44pm

Rechuchote wrote: »

I see plenty of people doing this. Oddly, a garda fined someone for wheeling his bicycle across the lights - "evading traffic lights" when the lights were green for walking but red for traffic recently. I thought it was a crazy, spiteful fine.

Was the cyclist walking their bike? If you dismount and walk around the red light, that's perfectly legal, is it not?

storker · 25-04-2019 9:55pm

07Lapierre wrote: »

At the same time I suspect the number of cyclists RLJ’ing will be quite small anyway.

I did a quick tally at 4 or 5 junctions on my way home one evening just out of curiosity. 50%.

Anecdotally, when I cross roads in town as a pedestrian, cyclists that actually stop and wait for the green light are the exception, not the rule.

uck51js9zml2yt · 25-04-2019 11:53pm

I don't break red lights on my daily 80 km round trip..... there are none!!

Effects · 26-04-2019 10:01am

Rechuchote wrote: »

I see plenty of people doing this. Oddly, a garda fined someone for wheeling his bicycle across the lights - "evading traffic lights"

I do this all the time at Georges St/Dame St junction. If you on Dame St as the lights go red you have to deal with pedestrian lights, then traffic from Georges St.
Much easier to just get off and walk across, yielding to pedos.

clod71 · 26-04-2019 11:33am

Deleted User wrote: »

It comes down to the person, though. If I'm gonna jump red lights, then I'll do it whether im on a bike or in a car.

That's nonsense...

EDIT: I often break lights while walking or when on the bike, but I never do with a car... I'm the same person, but it's not the same thing.

smacl · 26-04-2019 11:45am

Ryland Hissing Tailwind wrote: »

I don't break red lights on my daily 80 km round trip..... there are none!!

That's a fair old distance on the bike you're getting.

Rechuchote · 27-04-2019 10:13am

Effects wrote: »

I do this all the time at Georges St/Dame St junction. If you on Dame St as the lights go red you have to deal with pedestrian lights, then traffic from Georges St.
Much easier to just get off and walk across, yielding to pedos.

Also at that scary turn at Christ Church - I'll often walk across one side with the bike, then cycle or walk across the other side.

Charles Ingles · 27-04-2019 10:17am

Stuck behind a bunch of cyclists this morning, three abreast wouldn't move for cars to pass for miles, eventually get to the set of ref lights the whole group of about 10 cyclists ran straight through the red light and nothing can be done.
No way to report them

magicbastarder · 27-04-2019 10:22am

may i remind you again that this forum is provided for cyclists to talk about cycling, not for people to come in and have a pop at cyclists about tired old topics.

also, if you couldn't pass the cyclists for 'miles' there clearly was not a passing opportunity available, even if they were two abreast, rather than your claimed three abreast.

magicbastarder · 27-04-2019 10:24am

Charles Ingles · 27-04-2019 10:27am

magicbastarder wrote: »

may i remind you again that this forum is provided for cyclists to talk about cycling, not for people to come in and have a pop at cyclists about tired old topics.

also, if you couldn't pass the cyclists for 'miles' there clearly was not a passing opportunity available, even if they were two abreast, rather than your claimed three abreast.

I am a cyclist

Fighting Tao · 27-04-2019 10:37am

Charles Ingles wrote: »

I am a cyclist

Can I play too? I have my bingo card at the ready and it's filling up from your posts on this thread.

467b4c0394ffdddcb1df06415949a248--bicycle-art-bicycle-design.jpg

467b4c0394ffdddcb1df06415949a248--bicycle-art-bicycle-design.jpg

Shai · 27-04-2019 10:39am

Ryland Hissing Tailwind wrote: »

I don't break red lights on my daily 80 km round trip..... there are none!!

what route is that?

Charles Ingles · 27-04-2019 10:39am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Can I play too? I have my bingo card at the ready and it's filling up from your posts on this thread.

You really don't like cyclists do you?

Fighting Tao · 27-04-2019 10:46am

Charles Ingles wrote: »

You really don't like cyclists do you?

You might want to re-read your own posts in this thread. Anyone that has to qualify so many posts with "I'm a cyclist" is not a cyclist. They are an angry motorist as your posts show.

Charles Ingles · 27-04-2019 10:49am

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You might want to re-read your own posts in this thread.

I am a cyclist for over 50 years, I have a problem with the lack of respect for the rules of the road in the recent years by cyclist's.

Random thoughts on measuring Red Light Jumping

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