Cycle Lanes in Phoenix Park

magicbastarder · 31-05-2016 11:15am

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

Break out the tins of pain.

this sounds like a weak threat from a pro-wrestler.

beauf · 31-05-2016 11:20am

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

The lanes are poorly designed - thats a given. Rather then look at how we could restrict the movements of cyclists and pedestrians we need to look at how the park treats cars. If the purpose of the park is for leisure usage then the car should be accommodated but not prioritized. I do remember a proposal from the OPW to close the park to through traffic back in the late 90’s which was vigorously opposed by the local TDs. I don’t think that we need to go that far but we could
Make the speed limit in the park 20 kph for all traffic including bikes and strictly enforce it - including the use of average speed camera’s across the junctions.
Extend the hours where the main avenue to closed to traffic between Mountjoy / Phoenix roundabouts. Diverting the traffic via the North road.
Break out the tins of pain. Make the main avenue the bike lane that cars can “share” . Its common enough in Baltimore to see the bike lane markings on the center section of the road

It’ll never happen of course….

Your completely forgetting its a park. All levels of people use those cycle lanes very small kids, families on bikes etc.

Its a park, when its busy you won't be able to cycle freely, threes too many pedestrians. Use the side roads or the main road if you want to cycle fast.

GasBrakeHonk · 31-05-2016 11:29am

buffalo wrote: »

How do you expect people on bikes to be able to tell when they're speeding?

Most people tip along at that sort of pace on the cycle lanes as it is. Anyone capable of going significantly faster is probably fully aware of the pace that their going at. So say 30 kph instead - the point is that for a shared road space 50 kph is too high.

GasBrakeHonk · 31-05-2016 11:35am

beauf wrote: »

Your completely forgetting its a park. All levels of people use those cycle lanes very small kids, families on bikes etc.

Its a park, when its busy you won't be able to cycle freely, threes too many pedestrians. Use the side roads or the main road if you want to cycle fast.

I think that you've not understood my post. My suggestion is that we use the road and reduce the speed limit precisely because we have very small kids , families on bikes etc.

beauf · 31-05-2016 11:36am

You want small kids to use the road? Why?

Fast cyclists can already use the road.

No point reducing the speed limit as they don't enforce any limits. I've never seen a speed check in the park.

GasBrakeHonk · 31-05-2016 11:53am

beauf wrote: »

You want small kids to use the road? Why?

Fast cyclists can already use the road.

No point reducing the speed limit as they don't enforce any limits. I've never seen a speed check in the park.

At no point have I suggested that small kids use the road. Yes, fast cyclists can already use the road but again I have not made any reference to fast cyclists. The issue is the mixing of cyclists who are not "fast" but still fast enough to cause injury in a collision with a pedestrian. This is the majority of cyclists using the park. So how do we solve that problem ? My suggestion is that we reduce the speed limit to the median speed of those cyclists to create a shared space on the roads that all cyclists can use. Its about changing the mind set of drivers.

Tenzor07 · 31-05-2016 12:06pm

The OPW could do a lot to improve Cycle facilities for all cyclists, commuters, tourists and leisure cyclists..
The current situation where we have people who have died using the cycle paths must be setting off alarm bells in some OPW manager's head?

Reduce speed by introducing traffic calming measure, lane narrowing, chicanes, and a GoSafe van placed around the park...North road from Ashtown gate down ordnance survey road can turn into a race track at times, would be a good place to park it.

Sweep the cycle paths! Around by the north road heading away from the GHQ is usually full of small stones.. or parked cars... also widen and segregate it in order to make it 2-way, coming down the other side the road surface is a disaster..

Fattes · 31-05-2016 12:10pm

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

The lanes are poorly designed - thats a given. Rather then look at how we could restrict the movements of cyclists and pedestrians we need to look at how the park treats cars. If the purpose of the park is for leisure usage then the car should be accommodated but not prioritized. I do remember a proposal from the OPW to close the park to through traffic back in the late 90’s which was vigorously opposed by the local TDs. I don’t think that we need to go that far but we could

Sadly the park serves a pretty important role in minimizing traffic in both the city center and on the M50 by taking a certain volume of through traffic for areas Kilmainham, Inchicore,Cabra and castelnock. It would be great to see traffic, removed from it but the public transport infrastructure, and road network do not really allow for it right now.

ThisRegard · 31-05-2016 12:16pm

Tenzor07 wrote: »

The OPW could do a lot to improve Cycle facilities for all cyclists, commuters, tourists and leisure cyclists..
The current situation where we have people who have died using the cycle paths must be setting off alarm bells in some OPW manager's head?

Reduce speed by introducing traffic calming measure, lane narrowing, chicanes, and a GoSafe van placed around the park...North road from Ashtown gate down ordnance survey road can turn into a race track at times, would be a good place to park it.

Sweep the cycle paths! Around by the north road heading away from the GHQ is usually full of small stones.. or parked cars... also widen and segregate it in order to make it 2-way, coming down the other side the road surface is a disaster..

The last development plan I saw for the park, edit: here http://www.phoenixpark.ie/media/Phoenix%20Park%20Conservation%20Management%20Plan%20Final%208%209%2011.pdf
touches on all of these. Page 69 mentions that cyclists are forced into conflict with heavy traffic, along with the reasons for there being such traffic.

Section 9, Access and Movement, and the actions at the end of that section, are worth a read. It covers a lot of the issues that have come up on this thread, such as enforcement of the road traffic laws in liaison with the Gardai, the plan to create a circular cycle and walking routes for families and young users of the park, increased bike parking etc.

beauf · 31-05-2016 12:26pm

GasBrakeHonk wrote: »

At no point have I suggested that small kids use the road. Yes, fast cyclists can already use the road but again I have not made any reference to fast cyclists. The issue is the mixing of cyclists who are not "fast" but still fast enough to cause injury in a collision with a pedestrian. This is the majority of cyclists using the park. So how do we solve that problem ? My suggestion is that we reduce the speed limit to the median speed of those cyclists to create a shared space on the roads that all cyclists can use. Its about changing the mind set of drivers.

None of what you say will work, because there is ZERO enforcement of any rules. Creating rules is pointless if they are not enforced. Like new speed limits.

Pedestrian and Cyclists and Drivers are using the paths without consideration of each other. Unless they are penalised for it. They will continue to be morons no matter which they are.

The only think that might work is better signage and a better physical design that influences human behaviour.

They have spent almost nothing on the infrastructure, for example the cycle lane at the parkgate end has been left unsurfaced for about 2yrs at this point. So many cyclist leave the cycle lane and use the road.

The impression is just neglect from the OPW at this point. Perhaps due to lack of funds. I don't think they are keen on any commuting traffic even cyclists. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Fattes · 31-05-2016 12:35pm

beauf wrote: »

None of what you say will work, because there is ZERO enforcement of any rules. Creating rules is pointless if they are not enforced. Like new speed limits.

The impression is just neglect from the OPW at this point. Perhaps due to lack of funds. I don't think they are keen on any commuting traffic even cyclists. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Spot on with enforcement! I think a lot of people forget how old and historic the park is, a lot of its features are unique and authentic and the OPW tries to maintain them where possible.

GasBrakeHonk · 31-05-2016 12:50pm

beauf wrote: »

None of what you say will work, because there is ZERO enforcement of any rules. Creating rules is pointless if they are not enforced. Like new speed limits.

Pedestrian and Cyclists and Drivers are using the paths without consideration of each other. Unless they are penalised for it. They will continue to be morons no matter which they are.

The only think that might work is better signage and a better physical design that influences human behaviour.

They have spent almost nothing on the infrastructure, for example the cycle lane at the parkgate end has been left unsurfaced for about 2yrs at this point. So many cyclist leave the cycle lane and use the road.

The impression is just neglect from the OPW at this point. Perhaps due to lack of funds. I don't think they are keen on any commuting traffic even cyclists. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I pretty much agree with everything that you said above. Enforcement is absolutely necessary. Which is why I originally suggested average speed cameras. (See http://www.speedcamerasuk.com/specs.htm if you like that sort of thing).

As they roll out 30 kph zone's across Dublin they'll have to do something like this IMHO. Camera van's and Gardai rarely change peoples behavior for more than a couple of hundred metres.

Call me Al · 31-05-2016 1:12pm

The cycle lanes in the park aren't suitable for speeding bikes, even without pedestrians using them. The very nature of the park means there are a lot of sightseeing tourists sauntering along on two wheels.
Then you have pedestrians who get out of cars close to the zoo and see a low fence blocking them from the proper pedestrian path. My own toddler almost collided with a cyclist after he bolted across the path away from me (despite having been told not to move a muscle while I got his brother from the car, before anyone jumps to attack my parenting skills l).
Signage and layout is poor.
I think they should relay a new cycle path inside the barrier. Raise it so that it's less likely to flood and move it well away frotmwhat would then be a footpath. You will still have the issue with speedy commuters v daydreaming tourists, and pedestrians crossing to go and see the deer or run in towards the pitches etc but it's much less cross traffic.
If imagine something will change now though in light of the cyclist's death

Roadhawk · 31-05-2016 1:19pm

There is more than enough space in the park to have a good two way cycle lane on each side of the road (on the inside track away from pedestrians). It would make clear sense to have this raised as i believe many part of the current inside track floods at certain times of the year. I also agree that the speed of some cyclists coming through the park currently is crazy. Its not a place for high speed racers to be bombing through.

Carawaystick · 31-05-2016 3:47pm

Call me Al wrote: »

The cycle lanes in the park aren't suitable for speeding bikes, even without pedestrians using them. The very nature of the park means there are a lot of sightseeing tourists sauntering along on two wheels.
Then you have pedestrians who get out of cars close to the zoo and see a low fence blocking them from the proper pedestrian path. My own toddler almost collided with a cyclist after he bolted across the path away from me (despite having been told not to move a muscle while I got his brother from the car, before anyone jumps to attack my parenting skills l).
Signage and layout is poor.

The solution is to ban car parking on the north side of the chesterfield road here. From the Zoo up to where the rail fence ends.

The rail fence separating where people park and cross a cycle track to get to the footpath is never going to be taken down until it degrades in many years from now. People are going to see a path and block cyclists.

Roadhawk · 31-05-2016 4:04pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

The solution is to ban car parking on the north side of the chesterfield road here. From the Zoo up to where the rail fence ends.

The rail fence separating where people park and cross a cycle track to get to the footpath is never going to be taken down until it degrades in many years from now. People are going to see a path and block cyclists.

I cant see parking being removed from anywhere around the Zoo area unless they have an alternative. It would be pretty convenient for cyclists though.

Fireball XL5 · 31-05-2016 9:05pm

An interesting debate. My own meagre two pence worth is to wonder if in the short term it might be better simply switch the cycle path and the footpath so that people existing their cars are not required to cross the cycle path.

Alternatively it would not seem to me impossible to keep the existing inside foot path for the "slow" cyclists, to ban all parking on the main road (and provide a decent perking space somewhere in the park) and restrict the existing hard shoulders to "serious" cyclists. I hate the terms "slow" and "serious" here and hope people know what I mean in the context of the discussion thus far.

My own experience of cycling in the park is that I am always happy to use the hard shoulder on the road - when it is available - but feel forced into the inadequate cycle path because of the cars parked in the hard shoulder. It seems to me that if parking in the hard shoulder was completely banned and alternative parking provided a lot of cyclists would be happier to use the main road.(?)

ThisRegard · 31-05-2016 9:26pm

Switching the lanes is unworkable really.

beauf · 31-05-2016 10:35pm

Most of the people parking are recreational park users. They will get priority.

I don't see why they cant switch the lanes for the summer anyway. I think they've done that temporarily in the past. Maybe I'm mistaken

CramCycle · 01-06-2016 12:32am

What if they made the park unidirectional for motorised traffic depending on the time off day.

Reduce parking to one side only.
Make the traffic lane townward in the morning, and outbound in the evening.
Give over the other lane to a large two way cycle track and previous cycle track to pedestrians and slow moving cyclists eg children with parents.
The other option is to make the other lane public transport only (buses only) and the parking section for cyclists.

beauf · 01-06-2016 12:54am

That would be chaos. Most can't even use a roundabout.

CramCycle · 01-06-2016 8:46am

beauf wrote: »

That would be chaos. Most can't even use a roundabout.

Not sure why. Already lights at both ends for the switch over. ANPR for queue skippers. Only issue is turning across the bus and bike lane which would be minimal.

Solves the concern of increased traffic load, removes the pedestrian issue. Provides a great potential through way for PT. You cold even have two way PT with minimal changes.

Fattes · 01-06-2016 8:52am

CramCycle wrote: »

Not sure why. Already lights at both ends for the switch over. ANPR for queue skippers. Only issue is turning across the bus and bike lane which would be minimal.

Solves the concern of increased traffic load, removes the pedestrian issue. Provides a great potential through way for PT. You cold even have two way PT with minimal changes.

The park will always have pedestirans and their numbers will sky rocket on sunny days, unless you ban pedestrians from the park :rolleyes:

beauf · 01-06-2016 9:06am

They close a section of Chesterfield at weekends why not extend it and make it permanent. Lol.

ThisRegard · 01-06-2016 9:09am

CramCycle wrote: »

What if they made the park unidirectional for motorised traffic depending on the time off day.

Reduce parking to one side only.
Make the traffic lane townward in the morning, and outbound in the evening.
Give over the other lane to a large two way cycle track and previous cycle track to pedestrians and slow moving cyclists eg children with parents.
The other option is to make the other lane public transport only (buses only) and the parking section for cyclists.

OPW don't want the park to be used as a commuter route so if they were to move anywhere on that direction they'd have the traffic outbound in the morning and vice versa in the evening to discourage its use.

And they definitely don't want it as a public transport route, I know I don't want to see parades of buses bisecting it.

I think the problem with the cycle lanes is exaggerated, they're really just an amenity for sauntering around on, the vast majority of people out for a spin have no issues with using the road.

CramCycle · 01-06-2016 9:17am

Fattes wrote: »

The park will always have pedestirans and their numbers will sky rocket on sunny days, unless you ban pedestrians from the park :rolleyes:

I think you missed my point, they would not be on a cycle lane anymore as the cycle lane will be moved closer to the road. Maybe keep it as a shared space for slow moving cyclists eg kids with parents.

One main traffic lane that switches direction about half way through the day, after lunch maybe.

Removal of parking along the road, only in car parks, and priority given to blue badges and full cars. Maybe some car parks outside the park with free access to the park via PT or reduced rate fares into the park.

Red lane is private traffic, that is into the city from 7am until 2pm, closes until 3pm and then reopens to go outbound from 3pm until 10pm.

Blue lines are super wide lanes for public transport and bicycles. Green lines are pedestrian with accomodation for children and family members on bicycles.

If there is no want for huge investment, just either priority to the PT lanes at the roundabouts or if there is some cash, triggered lights to favour the PT lane.

PP%2Bplan.jpg

CramCycle · 01-06-2016 9:24am

ThisRegard wrote: »

I think the problem with the cycle lanes is exaggerated, they're really just an amenity for sauntering around on, the vast majority of people out for a spin have no issues with using the road.

I don't think there is a problem at all, only for those who want to make it a problem. I use the road all the time, rarely an issue. I also use the bike path, meet loads of pedestrians, never an issue. People who think that it is appropriate to belt along the cycle lanes in the park are deluded and need a slap in the face. People who can't see the issues with the layout and learn to accept that it is a de facto shared space should head in after a heavy fall of rain, bring kids with them (nieces, nephews etc., small ones so they can see the issues).

The park is used as a commuter route at the minute. restricting access helps this, cutting it off completely will be met with too much resistance. I am not talking about parades of buses. Just a priority route, There certainly would not be the want for alot of them initially and I would not be pushing for DB to put on empty bus routes.

Personally, my little sketch was more a solution to a problem that some people believe exist. I don't see it myself but I can see benefits to other issues if implemented, increasing PT use, making cycling more attractive etc. Reducing private traffic flow or at least making it more unattractive.

beauf · 01-06-2016 9:55am

CramCycle wrote: »

I don't think there is a problem at all, only for those who want to make it a problem. I use the road all the time, rarely an issue. I also use the bike path, meet loads of pedestrians, never an issue. People who think that it is appropriate to belt along the cycle lanes in the park are deluded and need a slap in the face. People who can't see the issues with the layout and learn to accept that it is a de facto shared space should head in after a heavy fall of rain, bring kids with them (nieces, nephews etc., small ones so they can see the issues).

Couldn't agree more. I rarely have an issue in the park. But then I'm happy to ask people to move aside, I use a bell and use the grass, or road if needs be. Almost never have an issue.

CramCycle wrote: »

The park is used as a commuter route at the minute. restricting access helps this, cutting it off completely will be met with too much resistance. I am not talking about parades of buses. Just a priority route, There certainly would not be the want for alot of them initially and I would not be pushing for DB to put on empty bus routes.

Personally, my little sketch was more a solution to a problem that some people believe exist. I don't see it myself but I can see benefits to other issues if implemented, increasing PT use, making cycling more attractive etc. Reducing private traffic flow or at least making it more unattractive.

While I don't agree with your solution. I think they could do more to facilitate commuting cyclists which would take some of the traffic out of the park. Also direct some sort of shuttle bus to get people from one end of the park to the other. People can hop on to other modes of transport at parkgate street. Perhaps tied into the park and ride at Navan Rd train station. Things like that.

tomasrojo · 22-11-2017 12:34pm

https://twitter.com/michaelcogley/status/933289955698331648

Thinking of switching the cycle track and the footpath on Chesterfield Ave.

magicbastarder · 22-11-2017 12:48pm

i think i had this wrong before - would this be the second time they switched?
i have a very vague memory of this.

Chips Lovell · 22-11-2017 12:49pm

Yeah, me too. I seem to recall they were switched before.

irishrover99 · 22-11-2017 1:02pm

If they do switch them around, the new cycle lanes would have to be resurfaced as they are in poor condition now.

magicbastarder · 22-11-2017 1:11pm

i guess the ones between the trees are more prone to being shifted by roots.

RobertFoster · 22-11-2017 1:25pm

Some parts are also prone to flooding. I wonder what they're like today

Annie get your Run · 22-11-2017 1:48pm

RobertFoster wrote: »

Some parts are also prone to flooding. I wonder what they're like today

I guess that means less for a cyclist then it does for a walker or runner though. I would kind of be in favour of the switch provided they did it properly i.e proper lighting & a complete resurace but I fear that won't happen and they will just switch them over. In which case I will use the road and to hell with the consequences....

They could just remove parking on one side of chesterfield ave completely and convert one of the hard shoulders into a two way cycle lane

. Not much cost involved in that!

Weepsie · 22-11-2017 1:50pm

From the article "Many pedestrians end up walking in the lane by mistake".

I don't think this is the case for the majority. It's fairly clearly marked that it's a cycle lane and some people still do it.

MayoSalmon · 22-11-2017 1:55pm

Cycle lane is nice and smooth to walk on whereas the pedestrian path is small, bumpy and uneven and closer to the road. May not be the case all over but I am speaking about the section towards the vistor center

beauf · 22-11-2017 2:06pm

Weepsie wrote: »

From the article "Many pedestrians end up walking in the lane by mistake".

I don't think this is the case for the majority. It's fairly clearly marked that it's a cycle lane and some people still do it.

Some are just unaware others just don't care. But that has to be taken into account in smart design choices.

They should really move the parking in about 3m and leave dooring space then a marked lane on the road for high speed commuters.

Then make the inside path a slow cycle lane. Because some cyclists are going way too fast on the cycle path. One cyclist hitting another going flat out on a racing bike is going to happen

beauf · 22-11-2017 2:07pm

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Cycle lane is nice and smooth to walk on whereas the pedestrian path is small, bumpy and uneven and closer to the road. May not be the case all over but I am speaking about the section towards the vistor center

Its bad in a quite a few places both sides of the road. Sometimes you are directed to use it when big events are on.

beauf · 22-11-2017 2:09pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

RobertFoster wrote: »

Some parts are also prone to flooding. I wonder what they're like today

I guess that means less for a cyclist then it does for a walker or runner though. I would kind of be in favour of the switch provided they did it properly i.e proper lighting & a complete resurace but I fear that won't happen and they will just switch them over. In which case I will use the road and to hell with the consequences....

They could just remove parking on one side of chesterfield ave completely and convert one of the hard shoulders into a two way cycle lane . Not much cost involved in that!

Without a resurface it won't work

Not a bad idea but they'll never do it...

average_runner · 22-11-2017 2:15pm

Weepsie wrote: »

From the article "Many pedestrians end up walking in the lane by mistake".

I don't think this is the case for the majority. It's fairly clearly marked that it's a cycle lane and some people still do it.

People have to walk across it to get to the footpath once you park the car.

I actually stopped using that park now for the kids on their bikes, they just don't enjoy it there or feel safe with the speed some go on the cycle lane.

AlanG · 22-11-2017 2:27pm

As a daily commuting user of the cycle lane and weekly family user of the footpath I would be against this. Our family's recreational enjoyment of the park would be greatly reduced by having the walking path close to the road - it would mean having to restrict the freedom of our kids to be more than a few feet from a parent as traffic would be so close. On the inner path they can scoot or run relatively freely and enjoy the facility.

I use a bell when cycling and don't have much problem with walkers on the cycle path. Almost all step off once I ring the bell in advance. Most cyclists I see don't seem to have a bell so encounter problems as they cannot alert people so easily.
There is clearly a problem caused by the fence and / or muddy ground between the roadside parking and the footpath which could be addressed by installing a number of gaps and paths through. I also know a lot of older people avoid the footpath during the winter as it floods and you can get stuck having to double back.

BowSideChamp · 22-11-2017 2:50pm

The OPW is encouraging walkers onto the cycle lane by their lack of care of the walking path - no lighting, no drainage, uneven surface.

Exactly the same is happening with the cycle lanes at the Parkgate St entrance. Surface so bad, no cyclists use it.

beauf · 22-11-2017 3:36pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

...Exactly the same is happening with the cycle lanes at the Parkgate St entrance. Surface so bad, no cyclists use it.

Does it actually have a surface. I thought it was stripped at one point and never put back.

Seth Brundle · 22-11-2017 3:52pm

Slightly off topic but I have two memorable experiences within the park that made me not want to cycle in the park...

The first was when I was marshaling during the Phoenix park Motor races maybe 20 or so years ago. Both pedestrians and joggers would climb over the barrier and cross the track because it was a public park and they walk/jog there every day and I can fupp off if I think I or any other knob in orange overalls will stop them.

The second was this picture I took in the park during the 2014 Phoenix Park Bikeweek Bike Festival...

Annie get your Run · 22-11-2017 4:12pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Exactly the same is happening with the cycle lanes at the Parkgate St entrance. Surface so bad, no cyclists use it.

No but motorbikes do :eek:. I got caught there a few weeks ago, I was on the road because as you say the cycle lane is in ribbons. I was nearing the gate so about to merge with ordinary traffic lane when a motorbike came barrelling down the cycle path on my left!!! Had a chat with him at the lights and he basically said it was my problem because I wasn't in the lane!!! Similar happened with a car there one morning too...

I've emailed the OPW on more than one occasion about the cycle paths there, about closing the lanes when events are on and about that damn ice cream van that's parked in the lane all summer long :rolleyes:. They have little or no interest in resolving issues.

magicbastarder · 22-11-2017 4:30pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

They have little or no interest in resolving issues.

i suspect 'staff and/or budget' could be swapped in for 'interest' there.

would be curious about what operating budget the PP gets.

ThisRegard · 22-11-2017 8:44pm

It's a bad idea to switch them for reasons I'm sure outlined already in this thread I'm sure.

ED E · 22-11-2017 8:45pm

Weepsie wrote: »

From the article "Many pedestrians end up walking in the lane by mistake".

I don't think this is the case for the majority. It's fairly clearly marked that it's a cycle lane and some people still do it.

Other parts of the city are the same, the signage is very clear but they just couldnt give a rats.

BowSideChamp · 22-11-2017 9:00pm

The generator lights currently in the Park for the Zoo's Wild Nights is an interesting experiment. It allows for walkers/runners to use the Park after dark. The lights though are pointed on the bike lane directing walkers onto it ðŸ€”

Cycle Lanes in Phoenix Park

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