Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page

pedroeibar1 · 28-01-2016 1:04am

Finding it almost impossible to log on this evening. To add to PB's post, the C word is "Consensa" = agreed ("fuit" = has been). Not sure that it is Manchester either, will come back to it again.

Hermy · 28-01-2016 1:19am

The linked marriage record above is a new branch of my tree which has only come to light in the last few days so I had no hunches to go on. However I see that Brillianna's sister - also Alicia Sophia like her mother - married a man with an address in Manchester as per their marriage record so Manchester may well be correct.

pedroeibar1 · 29-01-2016 1:20am

Hermy wrote: »

The linked marriage record above is a new branch of my tree which has only come to light in the last few days

Love when that happens, warm feeling and shivers:)

Hermy · 29-01-2016 2:10am

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Love when that happens, warm feeling and shivers:)

Warm feeling indeed but I was supposed to be taking a break from it all in the New Year.:)
I had a bit of luck in that the newspaper record of that marriage states that the priest is the grooms brother, something I had long suspected but couldn't prove. That one little reference to them being siblings has opened all sorts of possibilities and will keep me busy for some time to come.

tabbey · 29-01-2016 11:37am

Hermy wrote: »

Warm feeling indeed but I was supposed to be taking a break from it all in the New Year.:)
I had a bit of luck in that the newspaper record of that marriage states that the priest is the grooms brother, something I had long suspected but couldn't prove. That one little reference to them being siblings has opened all sorts of possibilities and will keep me busy for some time to come.

A true family historian never gets to take a break.
One scrap of information always raises further questions, enigmas to be solved, questions to be answered, brick walls to be dismantled.

Hermy · 31-01-2016 9:34pm

Just looking for some opinions on a couple of records...

Firstly, the third entry on the left page for Mrs. Michael Moore Ballintrae - would it be reasonable to assume that this is the wife of Michael Moore?

Secondly, for the second last entry on the left for Edward Ignatius Moore - what do ye think is the mothers maiden name?

tabbey · 31-01-2016 11:32pm

Hermy wrote: »

Just looking for some opinions on a couple of records...

Firstly, the third entry on the left page for Mrs. Michael Moore Ballintrae - would it be reasonable to assume that this is the wife of Michael Moore?
Yes

Secondly, for the second last entry on the left for Edward Ignatius Moore - what do ye think is the mothers maiden name?

Could it be Roper?

Hermy · 31-01-2016 11:51pm

The best I could come up with is Hope.

P. Breathnach · 01-02-2016 1:56am

Hermy wrote: »

The best I could come up with is Hope.

I'd agree, tending towards 100%. The first letter is not "R", because that writer forms his "Rs" quite differently.

P. Breathnach · 01-02-2016 2:00am

Hermy wrote: »

...
Firstly, the third entry on the left page for Mrs. Michael Moore Ballintrae - would it be reasonable to assume that this is the wife of Michael Moore?...

Yes.

pedroeibar1 · 01-02-2016 11:18am

I wondered if Ballintrae was/is the name of a house and checked Lewis' Top Dict. - it has
"KILBRIDE, a parish, in the barony of DUNBOYNE, county of MEATH, and province of LEINSTER, 4 ½ miles (N. by E.) from Clonee, on the road from Dublin to Ratoath; containing 279 inhabitants. It is a chapelry, in the diocese of Meath, forming part of the union of Dunboyne, in which the tithes are included. The church is in ruins. In the R. C. divisions it forms part of the union or district of Dunboyne and Kilbride, and has a small chapel. There is a private school, in which are about 30 children. On the lands of Ballintra are the remains of a Danish fort."

shanew · 01-02-2016 11:54am

shown as Ballintry on the townland index and historic OSI

Hermy · 01-02-2016 12:59pm

That's the place all right. I have recently gone back a generation from Newcastle House, Co. Dublin to Ballintra/e/y House which is exciting.

The Chieftain · 08-02-2016 12:35am

Would appreciate it if people could help with the 24 February, 1792 marriage entry for Anne Magil and Patrick (Peter?) Crean ("Crane" in register) of Rahennaskeagh (OS spelling), visible towards the bottom, right at
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634089#page/47/mode/1up
- Could the groom's name be Peter, rather than Patrick? That would make much more sense to me, based on other factors.
- Many parts of the entry are obscure, can anyone assist? In particular, what comes after the bride's name? What is the sentence at the end?
What is the meaning of "Odibus"?
Thanks

P. Breathnach · 08-02-2016 1:12am

The Chieftain wrote: »

Would appreciate it if people could help with the 24 February, 1792 marriage entry for Anne Magil and Patrick (Peter?) Crean ("Crane" in register) of Rahennaskeagh (OS spelling), visible towards the bottom, right at
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634089#page/47/mode/1up
- Could the groom's name be Peter, rather than Patrick? That would make much more sense to me, based on other factors.
- Many parts of the entry are obscure, can anyone assist? In particular, what comes after the bride's name? What is the sentence at the end?
What is the meaning of "Odibus"?
Thanks

- I'm pretty sure the groom is Patri., which is clearly an abbreviated form of Patricius. The Latin form for Peter is Petrus, and I can't see that in the entry.
- It looks to me as if the bit after the bride's name is also Patri. which I take to be her father's name. There is a blank that suggests that the person making the record did not know her mother's name.
- Then testis (witness): ??? Laffin, Thos. Donnelly.
- The last one is difficult! Odibus patris ??? Magil. Beats me!

The Chieftain · 08-02-2016 1:54am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

- I'm pretty sure the groom is Patri., which is clearly an abbreviated form of Patricius. The Latin form for Peter is Petrus, and I can't see that in the entry.

I agree that it looks like Patri/Patrick. I just don't want it to be!

P. Breathnach wrote: »

- It looks to me as if the bit after the bride's name is also Patri. which I take to be her father's name.

I think it should be a location or parish name, given other examples. Either way, it is not Patri - compare to the grooms name.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

- Then testis (witness): ??? Laffin, Thos. Donnelly.

I mainly agree. First witness is ?? Redmond, then ?? Laffin, then Thos. Donnelly.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

- The last one is difficult! Odibus patris ??? Magil. Beats me!

I think it reads "Odibus fratris eius ??? Magil,", which I would take to mean " ?? of her brother ?? Magil".
The word "Odibus" recurs over and over again in this register. Yet I can't seem to find it in any Latin-English dictionary.

Hermy · 08-02-2016 2:01am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

...Odibus patris...

Could it mean the father is dead.
From the Family Search quick guide to Latin I see obitus means dead.

The Chieftain · 08-02-2016 2:06am

Hermy wrote: »

Could it mean the father is dead.
From the Family Search quick guide to Latin I see obitus means dead.

I don't think so. Also on the page is "Odibus meis" with the name of the priest, which would then translate to "my death", if your suggestion were true. As I just mentioned (in previous response), the word "Odibus" occurs frequently in this register - yet no obvious sign in dictionaries.
I wonder if the first letter might not be a simple "O", but some sort of ligature?
From the context, I suspect that it somehow means location, place, or dwelling.

Hermy · 08-02-2016 2:10am

The Chieftain wrote: »

..."Odbius"...

Yes, I see now it's definitely 'o-d' rather than 'o-b'.

The Chieftain · 08-02-2016 6:30am

The Chieftain wrote: »

"Odibus" occurs frequently in this register - yet no obvious sign in dictionaries.
I wonder if the first letter might not be a simple "O", but some sort of ligature?
From the context, I suspect that it somehow means location, place, or dwelling.

Well, I think I have solved the mystery term "Odibus". Given the different usages, such as "my...", "mothers...", "brothers...", "parish church...") it simply has to be "Aedibus" - which translates to house or home. This is either a simple spelling error by the priest (but one he consistently makes), or it is an obscure contraction or ligature. With this interpretation, the last sentence would read, "[Married] at the house of her brother ?? Magil."

That still leaves the following that I could do with input on
- The placename after the bride's name (should be a placename).
- Christian names of the first two witnesses
- Christian name of the bride's brother.

And as for my desire that the Groom should be named Peter, rather than Patrick, well, if the priest went around spelling Aedibus as Odibus, then it should be possible..

P. Breathnach · 08-02-2016 11:03am

The Chieftain wrote: »

... I think it should be a location or parish name, given other examples. Either way, it is not Patri - compare to the grooms name.

I compared, and still think it is Patri. I missed the Do (ditto) for the surname. It's the same pattern as the entry immediately above.

I mainly agree. First witness is ?? Redmond, then ?? Laffin, then Thos. Donnelly.

I see the Redmond now. I have never before seen 3 witnesses recorded for a wedding, but that seems to be the case here.

I think it reads "Odibus fratris eius ??? Magil,", which I would take to mean " ?? of her brother ?? Magil".
The word "Odibus" recurs over and over again in this register. Yet I can't seem to find it in any Latin-English dictionary.

I'm wondering about yet another Patri!

I think you have cracked the "Obidus" problem,

Hermy · 08-02-2016 11:45am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

...I see the Redmond now. I have never before seen 3 witnesses recorded for a wedding, but that seems to be the case here...

For what it's worth I have two parish marriage records both with three witnesses.

pedroeibar1 · 08-02-2016 12:06pm

24. Anna Magil ????? [ space ] et Patri Crane
Rahanasche testres Ml Redmond Ml Laffin & Thos. Donn
olly Ædibus fratris ejus Ml Magil

The ????? would usually be « filia » i.e. daughter but it does not look like that. Usually the bride’s name is followed by the name of her father and mother; the [space] was left to infill the mother’s name and the father clearly is Patri (Patricius) Crane. But why the inversion?
Testres is an abbreviated form of testatores – witnesses.
I’d accept Ml as the Christian names of witnesses Redmond and Laffin, and that of the brother Magil. (But why three witnesses?)
On Odibus / ødibus / Ædibus - the Ae is a grapheme/ligature and ∅ is the clerk’s manner of writing it.

pedroeibar1 · 08-02-2016 12:06pm

duplicate

The Chieftain · 08-02-2016 5:27pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

24. Anna Magil ????? [ space ] et Patri Crane
Rahanasche testres Ml Redmond Ml Laffin & Thos. Donn
olly Ædibus fratris ejus Ml Magil

The ????? would usually be « filia » i.e. daughter but it does not look like that. Usually the bride’s name is followed by the name of her father and mother; the [space] was left to infill the mother’s name and the father clearly is Patri (Patricius) Crane. But why the inversion?

The inversion is perhaps because Anna Magil was the one from the parish (Litter, i.e. Kilmuckridge), while Patrick Crean was from Raheennaskeagh (OS spelling) in the parish of Oulart. Patrick Crean was the groom, not her father.

The Chieftain · 08-02-2016 9:06pm

Thanks to everyone who commented on the 1792 Magil/Creane marriage entry - deciphering the register entries is challenging, and I always find all suggestions useful, even if not all of them pan out.

The Chieftain · 09-02-2016 3:18am

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I compared, and still think it is Patri. I missed the Do (ditto) for the surname. It's the same pattern as the entry immediately above.

The above is with regard to the wording after Anna Magil's name in the 1792 Litter marriage entry I posted.
A problem with this interpretation is that there is a very clear "i" before the "t" (or what may be a t). If so, the word would then read as "Paitri" - clearly different from Patri (Patrick), which is what is used elsewhere, and is the correct abbreviation.
Also, the entry immediately above does seem to have parents names - thanks, I had not noticed! - but this is not the usage for other entries, where addresses are given.
So, any further thoughts, anyone?

tabbey · 11-02-2016 2:16pm

Hermy wrote: »

For what it's worth I have two parish marriage records both with three witnesses.

This was quite common in early registers, sometimes all male, rarely all female, mostly two men and a woman, the idea of a second man being to save the woman having to give evidence in case of dispute.

Personally, I think the more the merrier.

montgo · 13-02-2016 9:37am

Hi, can someone have a look at this baptism record on this link close to bottom of page, left hand side on 21 Nov 1834. I'm not convinced of baby's name, it has been transcribed as Ellen by everyone who has seen it:)

21 E??? of Michael Blackburn, etc

pinkypinky · 13-02-2016 9:54pm

I can't even figure out which line it is! That is dreadful handwriting and a dreadful microfilm.

pedroeibar1 · 13-02-2016 11:45pm

It is awful - the line is 9th up from the bottom. It really is too unclear to even hazard a guess.

pinkypinky · 14-02-2016 12:13am

Could it be John? The first letter looks like it has a loop at the top.

KildareFan · 14-02-2016 12:50am

I would suggest John as well - if you look at the John two lines above, there are similarities in the way J & H are written.

montgo · 14-02-2016 7:55am

Thanks for attempting this one.

I see a high loop after the the first letter so to me it looks like El. I'm hoping it is Eliza.:)

P. Breathnach · 14-02-2016 10:36am

montgo wrote: »

Thanks for attempting this one.

I see a high loop after the the first letter so to me it looks like El. I'm hoping it is Eliza.:)

I think that you are right: no doubt about the initial "E"; no doubt about the size of the word; lots of doubt about what follows the initial letter - but I more easily see a terminal "a" rather than "n".

Both "Ellen" and "Eliza" can be found on the page for comparison, and the handwriting, while difficult, is very consistent.

Jellybaby1 · 15-02-2016 12:40am

Dreadful image all right. I tried to compare it with the rest of the handwriting by the same writer. The inverse image makes me think it may start with 'L'. If you see the name directly under 'Eliza', looks like 'Looby', the 'L' of Looby looks similar to the first letter of the obliterated name. Any chance it could be Lisa? Might not be a name in use at that time though. You would need X-ray vision for this one! And a crystal ball!

montgo · 15-02-2016 1:52am

Many thanks for all those who had a look. I agree the quality of the image was very poor. Hopefully, some day, I might be able to view the original parish register and it might be easier to decipher:)

pinkypinky · 15-02-2016 10:26am

Lisa actually crossed my mind as well but I dismissed it as too modern a name.

L1011 · 15-02-2016 10:36am

As a name on its own its fairly recent but it was used as one of the many short version of Elizabeth in the distant past.

VirginiaB · 15-02-2016 3:47pm

Thanks to Kildare Fan for the reply to my query about a month ago. The site's tech problems prevented me from getting to it for quite awhile. I appreciate the answer.

The Chieftain · 16-02-2016 3:54am

montgo wrote: »

Hi, can someone have a look at this baptism record on this link close to bottom of page, left hand side on 21 Nov 1834. I'm not convinced of baby's name, it has been transcribed as Ellen by everyone who has seen it:)

21 E??? of Michael Blackburn, etc

It is unfortunate that the particular Christian name you are interested in is so obscure. As you say, an in-person visit to view the original registeris probably the way to go.

In terms of hard-to-read though, can I point to examples such as:
Wexford, 1672 http://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634134_003
- Ireland's oldest Catholic diocesan register, which really needs to be specially filmed
Kilmore, 1765 http://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634076_027
Castlebridge, 1837 http://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000634039_023

Alan259 · 25-02-2016 4:17pm

Hi,

Would anyone be able to make out the mortuary entry dated 8th July 1858 at this link: http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634151#page/109/mode/1up C,agh (abbreviation of the townland) ? of Mrs. Thos. Mulloy Thos.

Also, at the bottom of the page, some entries have "settled" written next to them, does anyone know what it means specifically?

Thanks in advance.

Hermy · 25-02-2016 4:21pm

I can only make out as much as you have yourself Alan.

The Chieftain · 25-02-2016 4:40pm

Alan259 wrote: »

Hi,

Also, at the bottom of the page, some entries have "settled" written next to them, does anyone know what it means specifically?

Settled means the account was paid.

spurious · 25-02-2016 5:01pm

Remembrance of Mrs. Thomas Mulloy.
If you go to the very top of the Mortuary entries you can see what they are abbreviating.

Hermy · 25-02-2016 5:59pm

spurious wrote: »

Remembrance of Mrs. Thomas Mulloy.
If you go to the very top of the Mortuary entries you can see what they are abbreviating.

What is a Mortuary entry as opposed to a parish death record?

Alan259 · 25-02-2016 6:16pm

The Chieftain wrote: »

Settled means the account was paid.

spurious wrote: »

Remembrance of Mrs. Thomas Mulloy.
If you go to the very top of the Mortuary entries you can see what they are abbreviating.

Thanks Chieftain and Spurious.

Hermy wrote: »

What is a Mortuary entry as opposed to a parish death record?

The only reason I called it a mortuary entry was because that's the name the Parish Registers Website calls them. I suppose it was because some priests recorded deaths while other priests recorded burials and to avoid confusion the designers of the Parish Registers Website just called them mortuaries. And thanks for attempting to read the entry as well.

P38Man · 01-03-2016 11:27am

Would appreciate some help please:
I'm looking at a marriage record (of James Lynch to Elizabeth Wallace) from 1820 and trying to figure out a few things:

1. if the last couple of names are the fathers of the happy couple or just witnesses?
2. If the words marked with question marks are occupations?

The text looks like:

In Mis. Canonise Conjuncti sunt a Revd. D O'Kennedy Jacobus Lynch et Elizabethae Wallace Cerion(?) Jacob Lynch Patritis Wallace orara(?) aliis(?)

See attachment for photo of the text in question.

Many thanks

shanew · 01-03-2016 11:30am

most likely names of witnesses. Occupations are rarely mentioned in Catholic registers

pedroeibar1 · 01-03-2016 3:20pm

It is always difficult to interpret from a couple of lines as the “norm” of the entries can often be inferred from earlier lines. In this case the usual format would suggest that Jacobo Lynch and Patritio Wallace are the respective fathers of the couple.

Handwriting decipher thread *must post link to full page*

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Handwriting decipher thread must post link to full page