Arcadia group collapse.

anewme · 01-12-2020 11:36am

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Look maybe I've worded this poorly or something - i'm not in any way discounting the people involved, it's terrible for them and their families especially at this time of year.

I'm talking about the companies, not their employees. It makes no difference in the scheme of things if there's a top shop or not, if there's a debenhams or not, there will be some other shop selling some other shíte, that's my point.

I get your point re Companies.

And also the retail model. There are people here saying they hope people go for more sustainable clothes. I would love that to be the case. But given the amount of crap people are getting sent by Wish etc from China, I cant see that being the case unfortunately. The high street as it stands though is more or less gone.

Same as people saying Philip Green deserves everything he gets. He does, but the fact is he wont, he will ride off into the sunset and not give a ****.

The bottom line is there are people depending on the income at the end to pay their bills. Not all of those workers are students.

The pension situation for staff in the UK is shocking too. Whether you work in a shop or not, losing your future security in old age is very worrying.

Not many of us, me included are lucky enough to work in a job that makes a real difference. Bigger argument. I would love to. But for the moment, it pays the bills.

ted1 · 01-12-2020 11:39am

anewme wrote: »

As hes transferred out more money than he can ever spend in this lifetime, he wont be the one suffering though, the employees will.

A business is meant to deliver a profit for its owner, as soon as its stopped then its not longer viable. no point thrown money at it.

anewme · 01-12-2020 11:55am

ted1 wrote: »

A business is meant to deliver a profit for its owner, as soon as its stopped then its not longer viable. no point thrown money at it.

Maybe the current model is not viable, or the current management have not the skills to adapt or develop the business in line with market conditions.

That's very different than saying the business is not viable.

Libb1964 · 01-12-2020 12:03pm

Gregor Samsa wrote: »

Sleaford Mods. Poets and prophets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQZN01Cqzek

I am one of the employees about to lose my job. This genuinely put a smile on my face. Thankyou ☺️

sbsquarepants · 01-12-2020 12:03pm

anewme wrote: »

Maybe the current model is not viable, or the current management have not the skills to adapt or develop the business in line with market conditions.

That's very different than saying the business is not viable.

It's hard to see how any retail business can pay high street rents / insurance etc and still compete with the likes of amazon. The gig may well just be up for these sort of places....but then again look at the ques outside pennys, who the hell knows!

silver2020 · 01-12-2020 12:03pm

Debenhams UK now being wound up.

I reckon the Irish workers will now wish they took the little extra that was offered and also blows a complete hole in mandate's and the workers assertion that Debenhams had plenty of cash.

anewme · 01-12-2020 12:17pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's hard to see how any retail business can pay high street rents / insurance etc and still compete with the likes of amazon. The gig may well just be up for these sort of places....but then again look at the ques outside pennys, who the hell knows!

The upward only rent reviews in places like Liffey Valley has a lot to answer to as well.

The growth of Amazon, Wish, Shein etc show how the market is trending.

But yet you've only got to go to Kildare Outlet to see the money changing hands on the likes of handbags etc.

It looks like the top end thriving, very bottom end thriving Pennys etc but the mid range struggling.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 12:17pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I meant i couldn't give a shít about the shops themselves, not the people who work in them.

I don't, someone mentioned Grafton street i was just using it as an example.

Fashion, by it's very nature is fickle. Shops come, shops go - it was always that way, will always be that way. How is anyone surprised by this.

Clothes shops are not great whales, they don't have some divine right to exist. There's no real need to mourn their extinction.

More shops close, less people will go to city centres. Shopping centres will have every second outlet closed, when there is less footfall and restaurants and cafes start to close. There will be less employment for workers who worked in those outlets. Less people travelling to town centres less need for public transport or taxis and less jobs for that. Less rates collected and more neglect in towns and cities. Online is changing how we live and Covid speed up the change. Maybe it was inevitable but I don't particularly rejoice looking at empty neglected buildings until someone figures out how repurpose cities and towns to something people will want to live in. Nobody wants to live on the streets full of empty premises. And maybe the less paid people will be hit first but those who paid 500k for a house close to the city centre might not be far behind when their neighbourhoods get run down and value of their property falls so they can't even move..

I never shopped in Debenhams and I haven't been to Top Shop in the last 10 years but people who think some other shop will easily replace them are deluding themselves.

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 12:33pm

silver2020 wrote: »

Debenhams UK now being wound up.

I reckon the Irish workers will now wish they took the little extra that was offered and also blows a complete hole in mandate's and the workers assertion that Debenhams had plenty of cash.

Are Debenhams also owned by the guy with the €100m boat?

If a business goes bust cause it's not viable fine but when the owner has still being pulling out tonnes of money and said billionaire boss then claims there's no money for staff then there is a real problem.

I get it you don't like the unions but knobs like Greens are exactly why they are still sometimes needed

01-12-2020 12:33pm

In a years time the UK could be headed for Universal Basic Income.

With the impending Covid recession, coupled with the Brexit recession its hard to see how high street retailers will weather the storm. In fact the high street is becoming a thing of the past.

whisky_galore · 01-12-2020 12:35pm

the purple tin wrote: »

If the young ones got into it I reckon it could take off.
The cheapo clothes are a false economy anyway, after about a year they have either shrunk or lost their shape, the crappy stiching has come undone or they get that bobbling on them :mad:

Young ones want instant gratification and to keep up with their peers. They're not going to wear the same cardigan for years on end.

They might turn vegan and bring a handful of things to a recycling centre but the commitment ends there.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 12:38pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Are Debenhams also owned by the guy with the €100 boat?

No. However Arcadia collapse meant Top Shop and other Arcadia concessions in their stores will close so JD sports stepped away from rescue deal for Debenhams.

GarIT · 01-12-2020 12:41pm

anewme wrote: »

The Debenhams workers are still fighting for their rights.

The Debenhams workers are fighting for their wants not their rights.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 12:42pm

As for cheap clothes, Pretty Little Things were selling dresses for 8p this weekend. Top Shop going down and the likes of Boohoo and Pretty Little Things thriving is not good for environment either.

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 12:42pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Young ones want instant gratification and to keep up with their peers. They're not going to wear the same cardigan for years on end.

They might turn vegan and bring a handful of things to a recycling centre but the commitment ends there.

As opposed to all them thrifty auld ones going round Ireland that can't get by without a new urban tractor every few years and a constant need for whatever Celia Holman- Lee tells me is this years must have

JDxtra · 01-12-2020 12:44pm

I can’t understand how these very large companies operate with such monstrous levels of debt. Any wobble in market conditions and they are in trouble. Even pre-covid they were under pressure.

whisky_galore · 01-12-2020 12:48pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

As opposed to all them thrifty auld ones going round Ireland that can't get by without a new urban tractor every few years and a constant need for whatever Celia Holman- Lee tells me is this years must have

Well they're all in it together.
Let's not pretend "young ones" all worship at the church of Greta.

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 12:49pm

In pro cycling all teams have to put money into a special fund so that if they go bust half way through a season the riders will still get paid.
Business should be forced to do the same and none of this operating on pure debt crap anymore

anewme · 01-12-2020 12:50pm

GarIT wrote: »

The Debenhams workers are fighting for their wants not their rights.

In your view maybe.

GarIT · 01-12-2020 12:52pm

anewme wrote: »

In your view maybe.

If they were rights it would have been resolved in court by now.

GarIT · 01-12-2020 12:53pm

whisky_galore wrote: »

Well they're all in it together.
Let's not pretend "young ones" all worship at the church of Greta.

Point is young women were singled out but everyone is at it.

sbsquarepants · 01-12-2020 1:03pm

meeeeh wrote: »

I never shopped in Debenhams and I haven't been to Top Shop in the last 10 years but people who think some other shop will easily replace them are deluding themselves.

Why so? I'm not saying you're wrong, i just can't see why.

I'd only very occasionally shop in either, but that's about it. Debenhams was grand for grabbing a few last minute Christmas pressies, top shop would sometimes have something half decent, more often than not it wouldn't. It's just a sign of the times, if these places were really all that vital they'd be thriving not closing.

meeeeh wrote: »

As for cheap clothes, Pretty Little Things were selling dresses for 8p this weekend. Top Shop going down and the likes of Boohoo and Pretty Little Things thriving is not good for environment either.

I don't know about that, what are you basing that on?

I'd imagine there has to be some environmental bonus to a centralised distribution warehouse model rather than hundreds of spread out high street shops all requiring individual deliveries, heating / cooling, requiring customers to travel to and from shops etc.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 1:04pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

In pro cycling all teams have to put money into a special fund so that if they go bust half way through a season the riders will still get paid.
Business should be forced to do the same and none of this operating on pure debt crap anymore

As far as I know quite a few pro cycling teams are struggling so while they might pay the riders till the end of the season they won't get any more. It's not like riders can switch teams mid season while those who lose their job can look for another employment straight away.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 1:07pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Why so? I'm not saying you're wrong, i just can't see why.

I'd only very occasionally shop in either, but that's about it. Debenhams was grand for grabbing a few last minute Christmas pressies, top shop would sometimes have something half decent, more often than not it wouldn't. It's just a sign of the times, if these places were really all that vital they'd be thriving not closing.

I don't know about that, what are you basing that on?

I'd imagine there has to be some environmental bonus to a centralised distribution warehouse model rather than hundreds of spread out high street shops all requiring individual deliveries, heating / cooling, requiring customers to travel to and from shops etc.

Actually the packaging and transport to the customeris causing extra damage. If you add returns there is no way that's more sustainable model.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/27/critics-slam-pretty-little-things-8p-black-friday-dress-deal

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 1:08pm

meeeeh wrote: »

As far as I know quite a few pro cycling teams are struggling so while they might pay the riders till the end of the season they won't get any more. It's not like riders can switch teams mid season while those who lose their job can look for another employment straight away.

Riders can switch teams if they're contract is terminated but there are only so many jobs to go round.

A bit like Ireland I suppose

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 1:09pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Riders can switch teams if they're contract is terminated but there are only so many jobs to go round.

A bit like Ireland I suppose

Mid season?

sbsquarepants · 01-12-2020 1:17pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually the packaging and transport to the customeris causing extra damage. If you add returns there is no way that's more sustainable model.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/27/critics-slam-pretty-little-things-8p-black-friday-dress-deal

The stuff is shipped in a plastic envelope. The packaging is very minimal - plus if you live in an urban area the post man / courier is probably going to go past your house anyway, even if he has nothing for you he'll likely have something for a neighbour, adding an extra stop is not the end of the world, and certainly far less damaging than hopping in your car and driving to Dundrum (even if you live in Dundrum!)

I'm not saying there is no environmental impact, but i don't think it's any worse than standard retail, and i wouldn't be at all surprised to hear it's actually better.

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 1:35pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Mid season?

Very rare but ya. Froome was offered one this year before the TdF

whisky_galore · 01-12-2020 1:40pm

GarIT wrote: »

Point is young women were singled out but everyone is at it.

But but de kids ar our future.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 1:46pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Very rare but ya. Froome was offered one this year before the TdF

He is starting next year though.

the purple tin · 01-12-2020 1:48pm

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Yes, however people don’t want to wear the same thing over and over again. They want cheap and disposable.

That's part of the problem. A lot of people will instantly go for the cheapest option even if it is junk. It's a false economy.

Christmas tree decorations for instance, flimsy crap made in the Chinese factories will sell like hotcakes. people will be replacing that stuff every couple of years when it breaks.
If they bought some good quality handmade wooden or wool decorations they could last a lifetime.

They would look at the price though and say 'no way' even though they will spend way more than that buying their Chinese junk every few years for the rest of their life.

MrMusician18 · 01-12-2020 2:04pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually the packaging and transport to the customeris causing extra damage. If you add returns there is no way that's more sustainable model.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/27/critics-slam-pretty-little-things-8p-black-friday-dress-deal

Don't understand this. There's some extra packaging I agree, but the product still has to be transported home, whether or not it's bought in a shop or online. The only difference is who does the transporting

A centralized distribution is likely far more efficient environmentally (certainly economically) than a distributed store network, which has light, heat and maintenance as well as staff transport emissions to consider.

GarIT · 01-12-2020 2:06pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Don't understand this. There's some extra packaging I agree, but the product still has to be transported home, whether or not it's bought in a shop or online. The only difference is who does the transporting

A centralized distribution is likely far more efficient environmentally (certainly economically) than a distributed store network, which has light, heat and maintenance as well as staff transport emissions to consider.

I've ordered a few things over the last few days and they have mostly arrived in separate unmarked vans, one in a jeep actually. Neighbours constantly having vans pull up outside too.

Things could be improved with one van coming through the estate once a day like the post.

freshpopcorn · 01-12-2020 2:09pm

the purple tin wrote: »

That's part of the problem. A lot of people will instantly go for the cheapest option even if it is junk. It's a false economy.

Christmas tree decorations for instance, flimsy crap made in the Chinese factories will sell like hotcakes. people will be replacing that stuff every couple of years when it breaks.
If they bought some good quality handmade wooden or wool decorations they could last a lifetime.

They would look at the price though and say 'no way' even though they will spend way more than that buying their Chinese junk every few years for the rest of their life.

Even when people buy good quality stuff they want something new and the good quality item is just thrown out or shoved in the corner in my experience.

freshpopcorn · 01-12-2020 2:13pm

I know a lady who banned online shopping due to the packaging. She was very into environmental issues and sustainable products.
When the kids grew up they rebelled on her big time.

MrMusician18 · 01-12-2020 2:20pm

GarIT wrote: »

I've ordered a few things over the last few days and they have mostly arrived in separate unmarked vans, one in a jeep actually. Neighbours constantly having vans pull up outside too.

Things could be improved with one van coming through the estate once a day like the post.

I somehow doubt they are just journeying from the distribution center to you and heading home for the day. They have other parcels obviously on route

If you had gone and bought those in a shop, you'd have had to make that journey, perhaps several times, if you couldn't do it in the one trip.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 2:22pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Don't understand this. There's some extra packaging I agree, but the product still has to be transported home, whether or not it's bought in a shop or online. The only difference is who does the transporting

A centralized distribution is likely far more efficient environmentally (certainly economically) than a distributed store network, which has light, heat and maintenance as well as staff transport emissions to consider.

Every package is sent from distribution centre unless you are buying from small local online business all the stuff is flying in from distribution centres in another country. Sports supplier for example would before send stock to their shops in big batches where would be bought by people doing shopping and more often than not buying a few things at once. Now individual boxes are collected by courier, driven to sorting centre, sent to different countries in individual packaging and sorted and individually delivered to customers. The process is repeated whenever the item needs to be sent back.

I have nothing against online shopping, I mostly shop online. However let's just not pretend that flying individual packages around is good for environment, when before stuff would be kept in local warehouses and delivered to shops.

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 2:32pm

meeeeh wrote: »

He is starting next year though.

Yes you a re correct but the rules allowed for it if he wanted to.

Rohan Dennis actually did do it in 2015

riclad · 01-12-2020 2:34pm

hopefully in a years time ,the pandemic will be over,
People will go back to shopping ,browsing and buying things in a real shop
is better than clicking on amazon .they call it retail therapy ,not everyone wants to just buy the cheapest item online.
people have been saying retail is over for years .
landlords will have to compromise regarding reducing rents or else they may find it hard to find a client for large buildings in certain areas

atilladehun · 01-12-2020 2:52pm

Having worked in multiple shops the packaging most items arrived to the shop is on par if not worse than current home delivery. Each item was always individually wrapped with extra needless paper and clips. Quite often a hanger was included to be binned immediately as the store had reusable ones. If the hanger was kept it was binned at till.

Then a completely new piece of branded packaging was used for the customer to take it home in.

Vast majority of shops were open on Monday Tuesday Wednesday when shops would make a dramatic loss. They were over lit and over heated to have gaping big doorways.

Customers who have to arrive in their thousands of inefficient engines to make the store viable.

The past was no nirvana.

4-5 vans making deliveries to ten estates a day is better than all those cars going out just to pick up something or have a browse.

The current situation isn't the answer either. We're stuck in a situation where we need consumerism to fund millions of jobs.

It is human nature to trade however. We just need much better international laws that forces successful companies to contribute to society.

MrMusician18 · 01-12-2020 2:53pm

riclad wrote: »

hopefully in a years time ,the pandemic will be over,
People will go back to shopping ,browsing and buying things in a real shop
is better than clicking on amazon .they call it retail therapy ,not everyone wants to just buy the cheapest item online.
people have been saying retail is over for years .
landlords will have to compromise regarding reducing rents or else they may find it hard to find a client for large buildings in certain areas

I've made a conscious decision to support local this Christmas, and so far it has cost me €250 in additional expense over and above what I could get it from from the cheapest online retailer. I'm fortunate in that I don't have money worries, but not everyone is.

Making a genuine attempt to support local retailers is a lot like unrequited love. There appears to be no genuine effort to be close to competitive (generally).

GarIT · 01-12-2020 3:01pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I somehow doubt they are just journeying from the distribution center to you and heading home for the day. They have other parcels obviously on route

If you had gone and bought those in a shop, you'd have had to make that journey, perhaps several times, if you couldn't do it in the one trip.

Absolutely. I'm just saying that 5 vans each driving to 5 estates is less efficient than 5 vans driving to one estate each. I actually did my thesis on this.

GarIT · 01-12-2020 3:04pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I've made a conscious decision to support local this Christmas, and so far it has cost me €250 in additional expense over and above what I could get it from from the cheapest online retailer. I'm fortunate in that I don't have money worries, but not everyone is.

Making a genuine attempt to support local retailers is a lot like unrequited love. There appears to be no genuine effort to be close to competitive (generally).

Or have good customer service. With Amazon, customer says something is broken Amazon replace it without questioning the customer and often tell the customer to keep the item. With a local company they will fight to the death to get out of replacing it. And they want the return sent by insured registered post that costs €30.

GarIT · 01-12-2020 3:07pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Every package is sent from distribution centre unless you are buying from small local online business all the stuff is flying in from distribution centres in another country. Sports supplier for example would before send stock to their shops in big batches where would be bought by people doing shopping and more often than not buying a few things at once. Now individual boxes are collected by courier, driven to sorting centre, sent to different countries in individual packaging and sorted and individually delivered to customers. The process is repeated whenever the item needs to be sent back.

I have nothing against online shopping, I mostly shop online. However let's just not pretend that flying individual packages around is good for environment, when before stuff would be kept in local warehouses and delivered to shops.

That's not how it works. Everything is done by boat and it's quite efficient. Only the likes of UPS will transport things by plane and you pay a premium for it. Sure stuff to the US is often sent by plane but it's incredibly rare and low volume.

The transport process is virtually the exact same until it gets to the local distribution centre. Previously goods are collected by the truck off the boat and sent to the retailer, now they are collected by the truck and brought to the distribution centre.

breezy1985 · 01-12-2020 3:36pm

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I've made a conscious decision to support local this Christmas, and so far it has cost me €250 in additional expense over and above what I could get it from from the cheapest online retailer. I'm fortunate in that I don't have money worries, but not everyone is.

Making a genuine attempt to support local retailers is a lot like unrequited love. There appears to be no genuine effort to be close to competitive (generally).

A lot of small business can't afford to be competitive price wise because they can't take the hit on sales or loss leaders

sbsquarepants · 01-12-2020 4:07pm

GarIT wrote: »

The transport process is virtually the exact same until it gets to the local distribution centre. Previously goods are collected by the truck off the boat and sent to the retailer, now they are collected by the truck and brought to the distribution centre.

And the final leg of the journey has to be a lot more efficient than countless individual journeys into a host of shops.

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 4:27pm

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/02/26/tech/greenhouse-gas-emissions-retail/index.html

This is on the subject. Click and collect is the most effective but it depends from country to country.

Geuze · 01-12-2020 4:39pm

riclad wrote: »

landlords will have to compromise regarding reducing rents or else they may find it hard to find a client for large buildings in certain areas

Yes, retail rents are way too high.

MrMusician18 · 01-12-2020 5:31pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

A lot of small business can't afford to be competitive price wise because they can't take the hit on sales or loss leaders

Until they can be competitive we will just see businesses like Arcadia continue to collapse. That means massive rent reductions are required. That said, rural based business online in Ireland isn't competitive either and they don't have such rent pressures. When it comes to bricks and mortar stores, there just isn't the margins available anymore to sustain these kinds of business, unless you are service orientated retail, e.g. selling makeup and applying it to the customer. That's what Arcadia has found out, and Debenhams etc.

While I can choose to pay €60 more for a pair of hiking boots local online/in store vs international online specialist, most people won't. Indeed I wouldn't only I know local business has suffered heavily during the pandemic and I'm luck to be in the position to be able to do so.

Does that make me a sucker, I don't know tbh. One of my more sarcastic friends suggested that I should just buy online from the seller with the best price and customer service and just post a cheque with the difference to my chosen retailer if I wanted to feel better about myself...

meeeeh · 01-12-2020 5:39pm

It's very hard to be price competitive with the likes of Boohoo, Amazon or whatever other cheap online retailer. And even if they are competing for less price conscious consumer they can't compete with brand range. Majority of stuff I buy online isn't even available in Ireland let alone in local shops.

Arcadia group collapse.

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