Can TV Licence inspectors check your bedroom?

Smashius_Clay · 14-07-2013 1:38pm #1

I received a letter recently saying that a TV licence was not registered for the apartment in which I live. I share an apartment with two other people.

We have no television in our living room, nor are we set up for Saorview, Sky or any of those things.

However, I am wondering, if a TV licence inspector calls around, are they allowed to check your bedroom?

Leaving aside whether or not any of us have a television any of our rooms, it does seem to be rather an invasion of privacy to ask to see someone's bedroom.

If a TV licence inspector called round, would I have the right to refuse him/her access to my bedroom?

djimi · 14-07-2013 1:41pm

I cant see you getting much joy from saying "sure you can come in and inspect my property, provided you dont look in that room over there"...!

Victor · 14-07-2013 1:41pm

You don't have to show them anything (unless they have a warrant / court order). However, that may arouse suspicions.

Smashius_Clay · 14-07-2013 1:44pm

Victor wrote: »

You don't have to show them anything (unless they have a warrant / court order). However, that may arouse suspicions.

What if I were to say, 'my housemates aren't home, and I wouldn't feel comfortable going into there rooms without their consent'.

Does that mean they'll come back again?

Doop · 14-07-2013 1:45pm

They cant enter your property atall!

Victor · 14-07-2013 1:47pm

Doop wrote: »

They cant enter your property atall!

They obviously can if they have your permission.

snubbleste · 14-07-2013 1:50pm

Depends if they are good looking or not

Grandpa Hassan · 14-07-2013 2:08pm

They're not allowed to enter your property at all without your permission, or a court order.

But the assumption is that you have a tv. So if you aren't prepared to invite them and show them every room in order to prove you havent, you'll be getting a demand for payment

Doop · 14-07-2013 2:12pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

So if you aren't prepared to invite them and show them every room in order to prove you havent, you'll be getting a demand for payment

Total BS, I do not have to invite anyone into my proeprty to prove I dont have something.

I have told the Tv inspector at my door that I dont have a tv, and i have not allowed him look around my private residance (nor did he ask needless to say) I recieved no 'demand for payment' ....for that yr anyway.

Grandpa Hassan · 14-07-2013 2:13pm

Doop wrote: »

Total BS, I do not have to invite anyone into my proeprty to prove I dont have something.

I have told the Tv inspector at my door that I dont have a tv, and i have not allowed him look around my private residance (nor did he ask needless to say) I recieved no 'demand for payment' ....for that yr anyway.

You're lucky. I've experienced the opposite

On what basis then does anyone ever get taken to court? If you can just say "I havent got a tv, mate", and they say "oh, that's ok then"

Smashius_Clay · 14-07-2013 2:17pm

Has anyone returned the letter saying they do not have a television set? Do you know if it is likely they'll call around to your house in that case?

Doop · 14-07-2013 2:24pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

You're lucky. I've experienced the opposite

On what basis then does anyone ever get taken to court? If you can just say "I havent got a tv, mate", and they say "oh, that's ok then"

good point, i dont honestly know. I guess you get taken to court for not having a licesnce when you do have a tv. How they prove that i dont know!

UDP · 14-07-2013 2:47pm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0146.html#sec146

Broadcasting Act 2009
146.— (1) An issuing agent may appoint persons to be officers of the issuing agent for the purposes of this Part.

(2) A person appointed under subsection (1) shall, on his or her appointment be furnished by the issuing agent with a certificate of his or her appointment and when exercising a power conferred by subsection (3) shall, if requested by any person thereby affected, produce such certificate to that person for inspection.

(3) An officer of an issuing agent may enter at any reasonable time any premises or specified place for the purposes of ascertaining whether there is a television set there and a television licence is for the time being in force in respect of the premises or specified place authorising the keeping of a television set at the premises or specified place.

(4) An officer of an issuing agent may request any person on the premises or at the place where he or she finds a television set or evidence of such to produce the television licence for the time being in force in respect of the premises or specified place for inspection by the officer.

reads to me that they can.

hadook · 14-07-2013 4:41pm

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Has anyone returned the letter saying they do not have a television set? Do you know if it is likely they'll call around to your house in that case?

I did in 2011 and called them to confirm they'd gotten it too. Offered to let them in whenever they wanted to see that we don't have a TV (we haven't had one since 2010) but haven't seen an inspector yet.

Our address is a townland though so it might be too much effort to visit us. Or they came by while we were in work and tried to look in the windows only to find either a great dane or a german shepherd staring back at them and decided not to bother.

Cuddlesworth · 14-07-2013 7:36pm

UDP wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0146.html#sec146
reads to me that they can.

Says to me that they can enter your house. Doesn't say to me that they can enter without your permission which would be a breach of other laws. They are bound to the same laws as other enforcement bodies.

I don't have a TV. At this stage I don't answer the door or talk to them. I get a notice once a year, that's about it. Not addressed to me either.

Grandpa Hassan · 14-07-2013 7:53pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Says to me that they can enter your house. Doesn't say to me that they can enter without your permission which would be a breach of other laws. They are bound to the same laws as other enforcement bodies.

I don't have a TV. At this stage I don't answer the door or talk to them. I get a notice once a year, that's about it. Not addressed to me either.

Fair enough. But once you've been visited in person I'd guess you're probably on their radar. I doubt they just give up!

And the OP is better off just showing them around to prove they haven't got a tv. I've no doubt that it started with s visit for all those currently in court for non payment

Smashius_Clay · 14-07-2013 9:19pm

UDP wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0146.html#sec146

Broadcasting Act 2009
146.— (1) An issuing agent may appoint persons to be officers of the issuing agent for the purposes of this Part.

(2) A person appointed under subsection (1) shall, on his or her appointment be furnished by the issuing agent with a certificate of his or her appointment and when exercising a power conferred by subsection (3) shall, if requested by any person thereby affected, produce such certificate to that person for inspection.

(3) An officer of an issuing agent may enter at any reasonable time any premises or specified place for the purposes of ascertaining whether there is a television set there and a television licence is for the time being in force in respect of the premises or specified place authorising the keeping of a television set at the premises or specified place.

(4) An officer of an issuing agent may request any person on the premises or at the place where he or she finds a television set or evidence of such to produce the television licence for the time being in force in respect of the premises or specified place for inspection by the officer.

reads to me that they can.

What's classed as any reasonable time? Can they visit weekends? After 8pm?

foggy_lad · 14-07-2013 10:17pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Says to me that they can enter your house. Doesn't say to me that they can enter without your permission which would be a breach of other laws. They are bound to the same laws as other enforcement bodies.

I don't have a TV. At this stage I don't answer the door or talk to them. I get a notice once a year, that's about it. Not addressed to me either.

They ask to be allowed in to search for any tv and if you refuse they just call the guards who will uphold the inspectors right to enter your property.

Cuddlesworth · 14-07-2013 11:29pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They ask to be allowed in to search for any tv and if you refuse they just call the guards who will uphold the inspectors right to enter your property.

So a an-post TV inspector has the power through the Gardai to force entry to a property without a warrant or permission?

Could you point me towards the relevant documentation that states when and where the inspectors were allowed break some of the most fundamental laws of our society?

Keeping in mind, if that was the case this forum would be filled with threads of people getting quite angry over the forced access, since there are plenty of threads on this subject.

The process for An-post is very simple.
They visit any property that doesn't have a license registered.
They knock/ring and ask to speak to a tenant.
They look into the property through windows in the Public areas(front gardens) to see if there is a TV visible, if there is no answer.
If a person answers, they take their name and ask for permission to enter and search.
If access is denied, they issue a summons to that name and take them to court.
If they have no name and no answer, they can't issue a summons.
If they see a TV, they go to lengths to retrieve a name like checking mail records to that house, signed for delivers etc and then issue a summons to that name.

At this stage, I'm sick of dealing with them and trying to explain why a 27 inch computer monitor is not a TV. So because I rent and move about a fair bit, if I get a knock and its the TV license inspector, I say "lovely to meet you, have a nice day" and close the door. They have heard all the excuses, so don't bother. Just don't talk to them.

djimi · 15-07-2013 7:59am

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

At this stage, I'm sick of dealing with them and trying to explain why a 27 inch computer monitor is not a TV.

Does it have SCART or HDMI input? If so then it is capable of receiving a TV signal and you would be liable to pay for a TV license.

Cuddlesworth · 15-07-2013 11:42am

djimi wrote: »

Does it have SCART or HDMI input? If so then it is capable of receiving a TV signal and you would be liable to pay for a TV license.

I work in AV. I could in theory place a TV signal onto your phone, laptop or tablet. That doesn't mean they are TV's. A TV in terms of this license is a device capable of decoding a TV signal. Which none of my electronics are.

djimi · 15-07-2013 12:04pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I work in AV. I could in theory place a TV signal onto your phone, laptop or tablet. That doesn't mean they are TV's. A TV in terms of this license is a device capable of decoding a TV signal. Which none of my electronics are.

A TV is determined as a device that is capable of receiving a television signal through aerial, satellite, cable or other means. Basically, any device that is capable of displaying video and sound through SCART, HDMI or RF input would fall under this as they would all be capable if receiving a television signal.

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/media/tv_licences.html:

Every household, business or institution in Ireland with a television or equipment capable of receiving a television signal (using an aerial, satellite dish, cable or other means) must have a television licence.

djimi · 15-07-2013 12:07pm

From http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0140.html:

“ television set ” means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception (whether or not its use for that purpose is dependent on the use of anything else in conjunction with it) and any software or assembly comprising such apparatus and other apparatus;

cypressg · 15-07-2013 12:23pm

What happens if you simply never answer the door to them?

Cienciano · 15-07-2013 12:29pm

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

What's classed as any reasonable time? Can they visit weekends? After 8pm?

I'd assume it's whenever someone is at home.

Smashius_Clay wrote: »

Has anyone returned the letter saying they do not have a television set? Do you know if it is likely they'll call around to your house in that case?

I have the letter, about to return it. Seems to me that if you don't return it, they assume you have a tv. So if you dont have the licence you get fined. If you return it saying you don't have a TV, they'll send someone around to check. If you lie on the form, it's a grand fine.
Now, when the TV licence guy knocks you could either just never answer, or refuse to let him in. Not sure how far it has to go before the gardai are involved. Would be interesting to know the details of what they need to forcably enter your house. I doubt a search warrent would be issued for a TV licence. But there's probably some clause in the law that says if you don't let the guy into your house for a visual inspection, it's assumed you have a tv, and court procedings will happen unless you get your licence.
I'm in the same boat btw, have the letter and wondering what to do. Haven't watched RTE in 2 years and don't intend on doing so.

Pawwed Rig · 15-07-2013 12:29pm

cypressg wrote: »

What happens if you simply never answer the door to them?

It depends.
If they have your name they will keep sending letters.
If they can see in your window that you have a TV you will evetually get a summons.
If you live in an apartment and they don't know what your name then nothing happens and you will get away with it indefinitely.

I for one never answer my door unless I am expecting someone. If a person that I want to talk to calls unexpectedly then they will call or text me. Otherwise it is someone selling airtricity/vodafone/some other crap who I have no interest in talking to. I have yet to answer the door to a stranger and get good news.

and to answer the OPs question, No I would not let them in my bedroom or even into my house.

cypressg · 15-07-2013 12:45pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

It depends.
If they have your name they will keep sending letters.
If they can see in your window that you have a TV you will evetually get a summons.
If you live in an apartment and they don't know what your name then nothing happens and you will get away with it indefinitely.

I for one never answer my door unless I am expecting someone. If a person that I want to talk to calls unexpectedly then they will call or text me. Otherwise it is someone selling airtricity/vodafone/some other crap who I have no interest in talking to. I have yet to answer the door to a stranger and get good news.

and to answer the OPs question, No I would not let them in my bedroom or even into my house.

They have my name and have sent lots of letters and a registered letter which I never picked up.
I never answer the door and they can't see into my apartment.

mathepac · 15-07-2013 12:46pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

... And the OP is better off just showing them around to prove they haven't got a tv. ...

Sounds to me like the OP has TVs, just not in the communal living areas; have a read of the strangely worded post again.

Corkbah · 15-07-2013 12:55pm

cypressg wrote: »

They have my name and have sent lots of letters and a registered letter which I never picked up.
I never answer the door and they can't see into my apartment.

registered letter is usually a court date .... so you may have a judgement against you in the district court.

cypressg · 15-07-2013 1:07pm

Corkbah wrote: »

registered letter is usually a court date .... so you may have a judgement against you in the district court.

How does that work when I never picked up the letter?The post office only holds it for 5 days and I wasn't able to pick it up as-insert excuse here.

Lemming · 15-07-2013 5:03pm

djimi wrote: »

Does it have SCART or HDMI input? If so then it is capable of receiving a TV signal and you would be liable to pay for a TV license.

Simply saying "Oh your TV has a Scart connector therefore it is capable" is not good enough, and it's lazy, cynical painting of the regulations that makes people think that is the case. Technically - using the interpretation you are applying djimi, every man, woman, and child in possession of a smart phone needs a TV license.

If you have a TV (or other device) that is - at the moment in time we are discussing - not able to receive a broadcast signal then the argument falls flat on its face. You do not receive a broadcast signal via any sort of cable; cables are nothing but a medium. You receive a broadcast signal by another piece of equipment. If you are lacking that equipment (or the cables to connect it all up for that matter) to receive a broadcast signal, well then again, the argument again falls flat on its face.

The important words are "broadcast signal". That means live TV, now.

Granted, the above does not apply to a TV that has built in capability to receive broadcast signals. Same for having your tv/video/pctv-card plugged into an active, working wall socket of some sort, as again you are able to receive a broadcast signal because you are physically able (i.e. you are in possession of the physical cable needed) to do so.

The TV licensing people are a law unto themselves and will tell you fib after fib to paint themselves as an imposing authority figure. Some of the tactics & letter content they use here in the UK is outrageous and they are notorious for being highly selective with the truth and aggressive & intimidating in the contents of their letters in an effort to simply scare people into submission. It's very much a case of assumed guilt, prove innocence.

Bottom line, it's not about owning x, y, or z; it's about whether or not x, y, or z is able (not designed, but able) to receive a broadcast (as in "live") signal. If you can receive that signal, get yourself a license because otherwise you're taking the p1ss.

Pawwed Rig · 15-07-2013 5:21pm

Lemming wrote: »

If you have a TV (or other device) that is - at the moment in time we are discussing - not able to receive a broadcast signal then the argument falls flat on its face. You do not receive a broadcast signal via any sort of cable; cables are nothing but a medium. You receive a broadcast signal by another piece of equipment. If you are lacking that equipment (or the cables to connect it all up for that matter) to receive a broadcast signal, well then again, the argument again falls flat on its face.

The Irish law is different to the UK law and encompasses more. In UK you must be able to watch live TV. In Ireland you just have to have the apparatus.
Also the Inspectors are not as aggressive or frequent here as they are in UK. We also have a constitution that protects a persons home which the TV license law seems to be in breach of but afaik this has never been tested as the TV inspectors are wiser than to try to enter someones property without permission.

Lemming · 15-07-2013 5:32pm

I stand corrected Pawwed Rig. I had incorrectly assumed that Irish licensing law would be roughly similar to the UK given how much of the law apparatus was inherited in the first place.

So, disregard much of what I've written then folks!

djimi · 15-07-2013 5:47pm

Lemming Im going to assume that you read none of what I posted below the quote you took, nor did you look at either of the links I posted. Suffice to say I dont appreciate having my opinion being called lazy or cynical when Im basing my opinion on what is a pretty clear definition.

zenno · 15-07-2013 6:15pm

So if i only have a desktop pc with monitor and internet, i still have to have a tv license ?. It's not a TV it's a computer. If i did let the inspector in to my abode would they still say i need a license if i only have a pc ?.

Lemming · 15-07-2013 6:19pm

djimi wrote: »

Lemming Im going to assume that you read none of what I posted below the quote you took, nor did you look at either of the links I posted. Suffice to say I dont appreciate having my opinion being called lazy or cynical when Im basing my opinion on what is a pretty clear definition.

I wasn't saying that you were being lazy or cynical djimi; rather that those who would place themselves in position of authority do so by claiming that that is how the regulations should be accepted as interpreted.

Regardless, my reading of what you wrote was based on incorrect assumption so it's moot.

Cuddlesworth · 15-07-2013 6:43pm

I'm on a tablet so excuse the lack of direct quotes, but end of page.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0319.html

djimi · 15-07-2013 7:17pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I'm on a tablet so excuse the lack of direct quotes, but end of page.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0319.html

A standalone monitor is not a computer if thats what youre getting at.

djimi · 15-07-2013 7:18pm

zenno wrote: »

So if i only have a desktop pc with monitor and internet, i still have to have a tv license ?. It's not a TV it's a computer. If i did let the inspector in to my abode would they still say i need a license if i only have a pc ?.

Provided the monitor doesnt have HDMI input you would be fine.

zenno · 15-07-2013 7:47pm

djimi wrote: »

Provided the monitor doesnt have HDMI input you would be fine.

I see. My monitor has a hdmi input connection. A bit of black insulation tape comes to mind to hide it

Faith · 15-07-2013 9:01pm

What happens if they knock on the door and you just admit to not having a licence? Do they just tell you to buy one or what?

zenno · 15-07-2013 9:18pm

Faith wrote: »

What happens if they knock on the door and you just admit to not having a licence? Do they just tell you to buy one or what?

I'd say they would just say to you.... that you will receive a reminder letter informing you that you have 10 working days to get one ? maybe.

shruikan2553 · 16-07-2013 1:27am

To require a TV licence you must have a TV (doesnt matter if it can pick up saorview or not) or a TV tuner in PC/laptop.

PC monitors do not count towards this, even if you could hook up a saorview box to it.

A registered letter from them is a summons, if you dont accept the letter they are a bit stuck and I have no idea what happens then. So far I havent seen anything since not accepting a letter for a former housemate that moved out.

They will just tell you to get one and if you dont they'll start sending letters threatening court action

An Ri rua · 17-07-2013 2:17am

I have received a letter three residences in a row now: over the last four years.

The 1st 2 to the 'resident', the last to me directly, as I hd ordered a setanta card for my mother's Sky Box, to my address. Nothing illegal there, but enough to set their geiger counters agog....

I simply emailed back, following up on the previous 2 email correspondences, advising that I do not have a television at my current residence. When, in 2009, I advised the same office that I watched only catch-up services on laptop, he advised me that if I was watching live broadcasts via IP, I needed a licence. I sent him a link of a press release from Minister Eamonn Ryan detailing specifically that that was allowed under the updated 2009 Broadcasting Act and he duly put it on file and let me be. That is the correct state of affairs as we stand.
Regarding a TV licence inspector entering your home, neither he nor a Garda nor any other state agent have any right to enter your home except in exceptional circumstances. A TV licence would not be one of those moments. Suspected child abuse is one, among other heinous crimes.
What I would advise, no matter what situation you are in, whether in the right or in the wrong, record your conversations. Its too easy not to; with modern tech. TV licence inspectors have been known to tell blatant lies in court; with the result that decent people I know have had no televisions for years (hippies) but have a licence because the Irish State peddles fear.

Know your rights. Whether you are an upstanding citizen or a crook, know your rights. If not, you will be manhandled by thugs.

Victor · 17-07-2013 2:53am

shruikan2553 wrote: »

A registered letter from them is a summons,

Might be a summons.

if you dont accept the letter they are a bit stuck and I have no idea what happens then.

The simply ask the judge if they can do a substitued service and send it by oprdinary post.

Bozo Skeleton · 17-07-2013 3:07am

The age old solution is not to answer your door if you're not expecting anyone.

TheChizler · 17-07-2013 3:20am

It's the 'whether or not a device is dependent on other equipment to receive the signal' bit that confuses me. I reckon that was put in to cover subscription services and things, but on a technicality could that cover just about every component in a tv? As in if you had a tablet you COULD modify it in order to display a tv broadcast. Or even just an electron gun and silvered vacuum tube? You could use other equipment to make a tv out of it. Hell a cardboard box could be a tv if you get the right equipment.

Grandpa Hassan · 17-07-2013 7:53am

Bozo Skeleton wrote: »

The age old solution is not to answer your door if you're not expecting anyone.

^^ This! I never answer the door in my gaff. If it is a friend outside, they will phone or text me to suggest polictely that I get my ass off the sofa and open the door. Otherwise, I'm not interested

djimi · 17-07-2013 8:03am

TheChizler wrote: »

It's the 'whether or not a device is dependent on other equipment to receive the signal' bit that confuses me. I reckon that was put in to cover subscription services and things, but on a technicality could that cover just about every component in a tv? As in if you had a tablet you COULD modify it in order to display a tv broadcast. Or even just an electron gun and silvered vacuum tube? You could use other equipment to make a tv out of it. Hell a cardboard box could be a tv if you get the right equipment.

I think thats overcomplicating it just a little! The device has to be capable of receiving a television signal; its a fair assumption that it means it must be capable in its current state, and not just because it can be modified to receive a signal.

Cuddlesworth · 17-07-2013 10:51am

djimi wrote: »

Provided the monitor doesnt have HDMI input you would be fine.

HDMI, DVI-D and Displayport are effectively interchangeable.

By your definition a laptop screen, tablet screen or phone screen are also capable of receiving a TV signal since they have the ability to receive video inputs.

Cuddlesworth · 17-07-2013 10:55am

djimi wrote: »

I think thats overcomplicating it just a little! The device has to be capable of receiving a television signal; its a fair assumption that it means it must be capable in its current state, and not just because it can be modified to receive a signal.

But you need a device capable of decoding and sending the TV signal. So you need a second device to make a monitor capable of showing video, which is effectively modifying it.

Can TV Licence inspectors check your bedroom?

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