Clamped in my own parking space

goz83 · 15-08-2012 2:38pm

Keep your receipts on the rental car. Seek every penny back (including the cost of motor tax). Don't let a cent slip.

Dionysius2 · 15-08-2012 3:01pm

galwaytt wrote: »

OP, enlist the help of the Motors section, and get the clamp off yourself. Do not pay APCOA a cent. Take pictures. If anyone turns up, take their picture, and get their names/badge/id numbers, and make a note of time and date of all and everything. If they mention 'getting the Garda', then offer to call them yourself, because I can guarantee you, that when AGS come out, and see you remove the clamp without damaging it, that they will tell APCOA to be on their merry way as it is a 'Civil Matter'.

I'd also send a letter to the MC telling them they are operating outside the law, and that any further attempt to interfere with your vehicle, on any grounds, will result in legal action.

This is very sound advice and if followed will pay dividends. Data protection comes into it too.

Victor · 16-08-2012 12:35am

Folks, boards.ie can't stand by advice to damage clamps or other property, so please don't make such suggestions.

RATM · 16-08-2012 12:32pm

jd wrote: »

This is a bit mad. The clampers shouldn't clamp cars parked in assigned spaces unless
a) car is parked in another's assigned space (and a complaint has been made)
b) licence to park has been withdrawn due to refusal to pay service charges..

That's actually a good point because APCOA have a contract to clamp in my own complex but ONLY in spaces marked V for Vistor, I even have a letter from the management company (Fisher) that they won't clamp assigned spaces. It could vary complex to complex though

Mikros · 16-08-2012 7:51pm

I think I've watched too many Hollywood glossed legal dramas where the law is some instrument that is there to right the wrongs done to you. After seeking legal advice the general consensus was I would be exposing myself to considerable financial risk with no guarantee of retrieving my costs. The law in the area has not been properly tested in Ireland which makes any case potentially complicated. And paying a solicitor €150-€200 an hour would be demented given the cost of the release fee.

Also any legal action would likely drag the management company into it and every cent they spend will affect my fees and my neighbours fees. It would be shooting myself in the foot in more ways than one.

So I might win eventually but it would be a long expensive road. Winning wouldn't be much use if I'm broke at the end of it. And it could go as simple as "did you have a permit displayed?" "No" "Then tough".

Different people can weigh up risks and rewards differently but talk is cheap on the internet. Removing the clamp myself I don't consider an option - while the likelihood is probably low of anything coming from it, I'm not in a position where I can gamble with it for various reasons.

€120 into the coffers of the clamping company. Humble pie is hard to eat. I'm sure plenty of people will think I'm an idiot but it is because the system is so stacked against you that the clamping companies can get away with it.

Regulation is long overdue in the area because at the moment they can make it up as they go along.

Mikros · 16-08-2012 7:53pm

Thanks though for the input and for the people who PM'd me ideas! Boards is a great community for that.

fasttalkerchat · 16-08-2012 8:08pm

The fact that people are afraid to remove something someone illegally attached to their car for fear of repercussions shows how much this country has gone down hill. I heard about an aul' fella in the Cooley mountains who had 5 clamps in his garage, when asked about them he said that one was on his car and that he went round the town that night and removed all the clamps he could find to teach them a lesson.

rat_race · 16-08-2012 8:26pm

I was driving down the M50 the other day. It was raining. There was a car in the hard shoulder and the owner was standing there, holding a pink umbrella as he watched an AA employee put on his spare wheel.

I remember thinking to myself: "that guy needs to take a long hard look at himself".

I'm thinking something similar here!

fasttalkerchat · 16-08-2012 8:35pm

rat_race wrote: »

I was driving down the M50 the other day. It was raining. There was a car in the hard shoulder and the owner was standing there, holding a pink umbrella as he watched an AA employee put on his spare wheel.

I remember thinking to myself: "that guy needs to take a long hard look at himself".

I'm thinking something similar here!

One night I was coming out of work and saw a woman in the car park with a flat tyre. I asked if she needed help and she said she had already called someone. I said if she had a spare tyre I could change it for her and save someone coming. She didn't want me to incase I did it wrong... a few mins later a recovery vehicle pulls up, my mate was in the passenger seat. It later transpired that she had called 118118 and got put through to the recovery company and whatever she told them they thought the wheel had come off.

Luckily they only charged her a tenner to change the wheel and gave her the number of a tyre place - the AA would have taken £50 just for the call out!

Pawwed Rig · 16-08-2012 8:44pm

Well in fairness maybe you would have done it wrong. Tricky business those wheel changes. Better to leave it to the professionals:D

Mikros · 16-08-2012 9:15pm

rat_race wrote: »

I was driving down the M50 the other day. It was raining. There was a car in the hard shoulder and the owner was standing there, holding a pink umbrella as he watched an AA employee put on his spare wheel.

I remember thinking to myself: "that guy needs to take a long hard look at himself".

I'm thinking something similar here!

Man up right? There is a post from a mod just up the page saying that boards.ie can't stand over advice to damage property. That is the real world. You don't know me or what I do for a living, but some of us have to stay within the law as it stands. I'm working with the management company to try and make sure a similar situation doesn't arise again. How about you write a letter to the Minister for Transport asking him to regulate private clamping? Might be a damn side more useful than laughing at pink umbrellas. No offence like.

fasttalkerchat · 16-08-2012 9:20pm

Mikros wrote: »

Man up right? There is a post from a mod just up the page saying that boards.ie can't stand over advice to damage property. That is the real world. You don't know me or what I do for a living, but some of us have to stay within the law as it stands. I'm working with the management company to try and make sure a similar situation doesn't arise again. How about you write a letter to the Minister for Transport asking him to regulate private clamping? Might be a damn side more useful than laughing at pink umbrellas. No offence like.

To be fair you could easily have found out how to get it off without damage. Several people here pointed out to you how to resolve the situation legally without funding the clampers. I'm sure you could have got someone here to do it for you for €50 if you didn't have the tools yourself.
I have no interest in regulating clamping as I believe it is a draconian measure and should be be unequivocally banned.

rat_race · 16-08-2012 9:29pm

Mikros wrote: »

Man up right? There is a post from a mod just up the page saying that boards.ie can't stand over advice to damage property. That is the real world. You don't know me or what I do for a living, but some of us have to stay within the law as it stands. I'm working with the management company to try and make sure a similar situation doesn't arise again. How about you write a letter to the Minister for Transport asking him to regulate private clamping? Might be a damn side more useful than laughing at pink umbrellas. No offence like.

I'm sorry, it just really bugs me when people get walked over and don't stand up for themselves. I know it is a tough situation, but you were totally in the right...you did absolutely nothing wrong. Forgetting the permit is not parking illegally. It's a nuisance to them, and one they should have dealt with swiftly, by removing the clamp.

And I hate the expression "only in Ireland", I really really do. But, on average, we don't have enough balls in this country...

I bought a set of lockpics and 2 books, and learned how to lockpick, after the last time I was clamped...realising I didnt have the patience to practise enough to be able to open any pin & tumbler lock, I decided I'd use a grinder time next I am unethically clamped. I'm talking about the real world here, too.

I've got two friends who have removed clamps (by damaging them), one guy did it twice -- he was in the right. The other guy was just obnoxious and didnt want to pay. Nothing ever happened to either of them.

Next time it happens to me, I will give one warning, inform them what I am going to do. Wait and then remove.

But if I'm a jackass who was clearly parked irresponsibly & illegally, I will pay the fine.

Mikros · 16-08-2012 9:46pm

rat_race wrote: »

I'm sorry, it just really bugs me when people get walked over and don't stand up for themselves. I know it is a tough situation, but you were totally in the right...you did absolutely nothing wrong. Forgetting the permit is not parking illegally. It's a nuisance to them, and one they should have dealt with swiftly, by removing the clamp.

And I hate the expression "only in Ireland", I really really do. But, on average, we don't have enough balls in this country...

There's nothing there I don't agree with and it's something I feel strongly about. But going legal made no sense - especially considering I would be suing myself (as I'm a member of the management company), not to mention the cost.

While everyone else seems to have angle grinders sitting in their boot I don't have any of the tools. Which means I have to buy or rent them. I also don't have the tools or knowledge to remove a wheel hub. I needed the car there and then leaving few options open. Maybe someone here could have helped me out, and that probably is my failing - being stupidly independent.

Look I'm not happy about it, but I took the only option I felt was open in the circumstances. I'm not lying down - I will keep following it through all the appeals and the management company have indicated they may refund me if I'm unsuccessful. The completley unreasonable actions of the clamping company have put me in this situation.

RATM · 16-08-2012 10:45pm

Your decision to pay them the €120 is your call at the end of the day. But if I was in your position I'd still be taking that legal case- the way to win it is all there in black and white in the link I posted- to repeat - there is no legal basis in Ireland for a person to enter into a contract with the use of a sign. The only way a contract can be entered into is verbally or by signature and that point is perfectly clear under Irish law but as yet no one has challenged the clampers on it, once they do then their days are numbered,

And if your solititor charges €200 an hour then I'd advise to find a different one- there are 4,000 unemployed solicitors in Ireland, many of whom would be glad to do it on a no win no fee (especially as the legislation all points towards a winning case). If you had him on a no win no fee then your financial risk is zero. The management company wouldn't be party to the action, only the champers who were the offenders in the first place.

Paulw · 16-08-2012 10:51pm

RATM wrote: »

But if I was in your position I'd still be taking that legal case- the way to win it is all there in black and white in the link I posted

The management company wouldn't be party to the action, only the champers who were the offenders in the first place.

So, why don't you put your money where your mouth is, and take a case? Easy to do. Find a development with clamping enforcement. Park there. Wait to get clamped, and then you can bring a case against them? But no, you'd prefer to hide behind a keyboard and advise others to do it. :rolleyes:

As for the management company, of course they are party to the action. They have to be. They are responsible for the parking. They have contracted the clampers to enforce parking. :eek:

In the end, the OP did what he thought was the most responsible course of action. I have sympathy for that. I was clamped incorrectly before in our development, but the management company quickly sorted the issue for me. Each circumstance is different though.

Mikros · 16-08-2012 11:48pm

RATM wrote: »

Your decision to pay them the €120 is your call at the end of the day.

The management company wouldn't be party to the action, only the champers who were the offenders in the first place.

A solicitor is not as quick to take on a "no win no fee" case on an area of untested law as you may think. Looking through other clamping cases in the UK it usually involved an appeal before the plaintiff was successful. I agree the linked article you showed (which was great btw) sets out a strong case.

However I am not a visitor - the case would likely rest on the conditions on the leasehold - there may be one in there that allows the MC introduce new regulations if agreed at the AGM. In that case my consent could be implied by membership of the MC. The point is barristers make a living debating back and forth these things, and in this case I would be the one paying by the hour.

And as Paulw has said the management company would almost definitely be involved. The clamping company is acting under their direction and could be considered their agents. I would not be surprised to find an indemnity clause in the contract between the MC and the clamping company. It would be a pyrrhic victory to be awarded damages and costs only to realise there is no money to collect the bins as a result.

Also a success for me would likely be the end of clamping in the development. The permit system has been successful in getting people to pay their fees and regulate parking, both of which we have had a lot of difficulty with. A common sense approach to these things would prevent all this hassle - "oh you have a valid permit - let me take that clamp off there, sorry". Sadly this seems to be lacking in my situation.

The realities of actually pursuing a case have been very sobering for me. Our legal system is slow, expensive and difficult to access. Life is too short sometimes.

Motorist · 17-08-2012 12:40am

Mikros wrote: »

Look I'm not happy about it, but I took the only option I felt was open in the circumstances. I'm not lying down - I will keep following it through all the appeals and the management company have indicated they may refund me if I'm unsuccessful. The completley unreasonable actions of the clamping company have put me in this situation.

As I said before, all those appeals will be a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.

Go through with them if you like, but just so you know what to expect from that bunch of APCOA scumbags.

Victor · 17-08-2012 3:34am

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I have no interest in regulating clamping as I believe it is a draconian measure and should be be unequivocally banned.

Realise that the alternatives that property owners will have to come up with may be even more draconian.

Victor · 17-08-2012 3:38am

Motorist wrote: »

scumbags.

Can everyone lay off the throwing of insults and badgering of users?

djimi · 17-08-2012 9:30am

Mikros wrote: »

Look I'm not happy about it, but I took the only option I felt was open in the circumstances. I'm not lying down - I will keep following it through all the appeals and the management company have indicated they may refund me if I'm unsuccessful. The completley unreasonable actions of the clamping company have put me in this situation.

If I were you I would continue to apply as much pressure as you can to the management company in an effort to get your money back. They are the ones who hire the clampers and they are the ones who have the power to get the issue sorted for you. Ask them to write to the clamping company threatening to pull the contract if the money is not returned; unless they are complete morons they are not going to risk losing a couple of grand in an effort to hold onto €120.

oppenheimer1 · 18-08-2012 12:12am

Mikros wrote: »

A solicitor is not as quick to take on a "no win no fee" case on an area of untested law as you may think. Looking through other clamping cases in the UK it usually involved an appeal before the plaintiff was successful. I agree the linked article you showed (which was great btw) sets out a strong case.

However I am not a visitor - the case would likely rest on the conditions on the leasehold - there may be one in there that allows the MC introduce new regulations if agreed at the AGM. In that case my consent could be implied by membership of the MC. The point is barristers make a living debating back and forth these things, and in this case I would be the one paying by the hour.

And as Paulw has said the management company would almost definitely be involved. The clamping company is acting under their direction and could be considered their agents. I would not be surprised to find an indemnity clause in the contract between the MC and the clamping company. It would be a pyrrhic victory to be awarded damages and costs only to realise there is no money to collect the bins as a result.

Also a success for me would likely be the end of clamping in the development. The permit system has been successful in getting people to pay their fees and regulate parking, both of which we have had a lot of difficulty with. A common sense approach to these things would prevent all this hassle - "oh you have a valid permit - let me take that clamp off there, sorry". Sadly this seems to be lacking in my situation.

The realities of actually pursuing a case have been very sobering for me. Our legal system is slow, expensive and difficult to access. Life is too short sometimes.

How can you say that when you didn't try the legal system route?

Pawwed Rig · 18-08-2012 10:39am

Victor wrote: »

Realsie that the alternatives that property owners will have to come up with may be even more draconian.

Is there any reason why the management company cannot apply their own clamps? I know where I work the company has no problem personally clamping cars.
Then in the even of unfairness as with the OP the Mgt company could remove the clamp.
Also it would mean only people genuinely causing a nuisance would actually be clamped.

Mikros · 18-08-2012 11:17am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

How can you say that when you didn't try the legal system route?

Again -

Expensive: the upfront cost of a solicitor would be in excess of the €120 release fee. If the case was to run on it could be many multiples of €120 with no guarantee of recovering your costs.

Slow: a case could take months to be heard in court, and only after plenty of trading of letters etc.

Difficult to access: there is no "small claims court" for civil torts. For a lay person the only realistic option is to go through a solicitor.

Yeah, I stand by what I said. Do you know some way to take a case that it is cheap, quick and easy? Please do share.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Is there any reason why the management company cannot apply their own clamps? I know where I work the company has no problem personally clamping cars.
Then in the even of unfairness as with the OP the Mgt company could remove the clamp.
Also it would mean only people genuinely causing a nuisance would actually be clamped.

It's mainly a cost thing I'd say - the outside clamping companies are not paid a fee by the management company, they make their money on the release fees. For the management company to do it they would need to buy the clamps and employ someone to put them on and potentially be available 24 hours a day to take them off.

Pawwed Rig · 18-08-2012 11:33am

Mikros wrote: »

It's mainly a cost thing I'd say - the outside clamping companies are not paid a fee by the management company, they make their money on the release fees. For the management company to do it they would need to buy the clamps and employ someone to put them on and potentially be available 24 hours a day to take them off.

Not sure how it could be a cost thing. By the sound of your complex there are many members of the management company lining there. If there was an issue surely someone could contact any member of the company and the situation could be assessed from a non revenue raising perspective ie if there is an actual nuisance. No need to hire someone and no reason for innocent people to be clamped. The mgt company could contact residents if their car needs to be moved rather than having them clamped.
I am sure a clamp is not that expensive.
I think it is immoral of the mgt company to hire these guys to come in and extort money from residents and visitors.
Alternatively you could put into the contract of the clampers that they MUST realease a clamp on the orders of the mgt company. Who is hiring who here?

Mikros · 18-08-2012 11:59am

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Not sure how it could be a cost thing. By the ....
Alternatively you could put into the contract of the clampers that they MUST realease a clamp on the orders of the mgt company. Who is hiring who here?

Current cost to management company of contracting external clampers: €0
Cost of management company doing their own clamping: Some non zero amount

It might be different in other developments, but in ours the principle is keep the fees as low as possible.

Also as this is a first here, the MC have asked me to go through all the appeal hoops to see how it works. If the appeal is rejected they will consider directly refunding me and will take it up with the clamping company. Maybe some changes in the contract when it is renewed might be needed. It could be a change in the permit system - maybe a register of resident vehicles that the clamping company have instead of stickers. Will be working on it anyway.

Pawwed Rig · 18-08-2012 12:27pm

Mikros wrote: »

Current cost to management company of contracting external clampers: €0
Cost of management company doing their own clamping: Some non zero amount

You forgot the cost to poor unfortunate whose parking permit accidently falls off window - €300+ *
It is n ot just about the management company. The MC should be looking after the interests of the tenants too.

Also I would have reservations about a MC that invite companies with the reputation that these companies have onto the premisis and enable them to snoop about un supervised.

*I presume you didn't pay the €300+ that you mentioned earlier in the thread btw?

TheTurk1972 · 18-08-2012 1:26pm

I was clamped again yesterday.
Same situation as the OP. I drive different cars all the time when working, so cant really change the parking permit reg at 2am.
I get clamped because the reg doesnt match.
I just cut the chain with a nice big bolt cutter and throw it to the side of the road. I have a note attached to the parking permit telling them that anything attached to my car now belongs to me and I can do whatever I like with it. Its as legal as their clamping notices are.

They seem to have no problem identifying me when they want to call threatening me with all sorts of legal action, but it all comes to nothing. Funny though that they clamp me because they cant identify the car from the permit, yet they still manage to get my phone number using the permit.

Victor · 18-08-2012 2:15pm

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Is there any reason why the management company cannot apply their own clamps? I know where I work the company has no problem personally clamping cars.

Residents don't have training in when to / not clamp and more importantly don't know how to deal with people that have been clamped.

Based on the 'traffic cone in front of my house' brigade, those people would clamp people for parking in 'their' (not) parking spaces.

cookie1977 · 18-08-2012 2:46pm

Victor wrote: »

Based on the 'traffic cone in front of my house' brigade, those people would clamp people for parking in 'their' (not) parking spaces.

How I hate that! I pay my taxes like everyone else so the "road" is as much mine as it iss yours. Grrrr

Clamped in my own parking space

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