Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

ED E · 17-01-2018 2:22am

Fann Linn wrote: »

Be fair. The Aer Corp provides a good ambulance service here in the west, and can be seen occasionally flying overhead on a Thursday when large amounts of cash is being transported from bank to bank.

No it doesnt, the EAS is an office hours photo op. If the Aer Corps shut down all other ops and devote the manpower to a 24/7 EAS that'd be a start.

The smaller fixed wings are useless, the Cessenas are being replaced with the PC12s. Keep them, drop the rest, keep the AWs. Devote at least 2 to permanent EAS, do some good for society.

sparky42 · 17-01-2018 2:37pm

ED E wrote: »

No it doesnt, the EAS is an office hours photo op. If the Aer Corps shut down all other ops and devote the manpower to a 24/7 EAS that'd be a start.

The smaller fixed wings are useless, the Cessenas are being replaced with the PC12s. Keep them, drop the rest, keep the AWs. Devote at least 2 to permanent EAS, do some good for society.

Or perhaps the department whose budget dwarfs the entire DF budget might spend the money on the service, of give the DF the money to support the EAS 24/7.

The AC does plenty of "good for society", the "smaller aircraft" are the trainers needed for the pilots, the CASA's work day in day out with the NS (to the point that we've worn them out twice). Frankly the AC should drop the EAS unless Health gives the funding to dedicate airframes/people without impacting the needs of the rest of the AC.

Uinseann_16 · 17-01-2018 5:37pm

Why not buy Russian MiGs?
And the air corp badly needs some blackhawks

sparky42 · 17-01-2018 6:56pm

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Why not buy Russian MiGs?
And the air corp badly needs some blackhawks

Because we're a NATO standard country.
And Blackhawks were on the list when the 139's were bought, wasn't there some reporting that Bertie thought them too "military" given Iraq 2 was happening at the time. Instead we got civie airframes painted Green.

In terms of future buys something is going to have to be got for the EPV as the 139's aren't rated for maritime operations, if the rumours of the UK defence cuts coming up are true the Wildcats are going to be going to be available.

roadmaster · 17-01-2018 7:41pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Because we're a NATO standard country.
And Blackhawks were on the list when the 139's were bought, wasn't there some reporting that Bertie thought them too "military" given Iraq 2 was happening at the time. Instead we got civie airframes painted Green.

In terms of future buys something is going to have to be got for the EPV as the 139's aren't rated for maritime operations, if the rumours of the UK defence cuts coming up are true the Wildcats are going to be going to be available.

Would wildcats not be a waste of time interms of size and what could be used for?

sparky42 · 17-01-2018 8:04pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Would wildcats not be a waste of time interms of size and what could be used for?

Depends, it would get us a helicopter that could actually be deployed in hostile areas unlike our own, or with the naval ones it gets us an airframe ready for sea operations (and capable of carrying a full range of weapons if we funded it). The other option is of course buying new but either way unless something starts soon we'll have the same as Eithne in having a hull capable of helicopter usage but not having anything to use it.

Psychlops · 17-01-2018 11:52pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not 100% true. The Eurofighters always go up first. On some training flights as you see daily off North Norfolk, the tanker is up for hours at a time.

The Eurofighter only needs its afterburner briefly as it can supercruise so by the time it has intercepted the target and shadowed it, the tanker will be on station to refuel.

There would be nothing quick about QRA if the waited for a tanker to get from Brize to near Lossie. By that time it would all be over.

Its not like the old days when a EE Lightning would burn its fuel in 30 mins.

My apologies, I was going from the view of UK Spotter/Scanner heads on twitter that know more than me, they say if its the Russians they get a heads up most likely from Norway, plenty of time to prepare, tanker goes up then the Typhoons.

They say if its a different QRA where they have no notice then 100% you are correct it is the Typhoons most definitely first.

prinzeugen · 18-01-2018 1:07am

Psychlops wrote: »

My apologies, I was going from the view of UK Spotter/Scanner heads on twitter that know more than me, they say if its the Russians they get a heads up most likely from Norway, plenty of time to prepare, tanker goes up then the Typhoons.

They say if its a different QRA where they have no notice then 100% you are correct it is the Typhoons most definitely first.

If it was a TU95 and they had the heads up then a tanker could get there in plenty of time. The recent incident was a blackjack which is a supersonic plane.

They have come down between Iceland and Norway before, out the range of Norway.

The other problem with having the tanker in position first is where should it go?

The Russians don't file flight plans, don't have transponders switched on, don't talk to ATC and don't even talk to the fighters that intercept them.

They could be going anywhere. Sometimes the go down the west coast of the UK/Ireland and as per the other day, they go down the east, turn around and head back.

If Ireland needed QRA jets, I think they would be more for chasing civil aircraft with lost com's etc.

Psychlops · 18-01-2018 11:36pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

If it was a TU95 and they had the heads up then a tanker could get there in plenty of time. The recent incident was a blackjack which is a supersonic plane.

But she was hardly supersonic the entire way.

prinzeugen wrote: »

They have come down between Iceland and Norway before, out the range of Norway.

That's why NATO still perform air policing from Iceland since 2008 at the request of Icelands Govt due to Russian interference.

prinzeugen wrote: »

The other problem with having the tanker in position first is where should it go?

The Russians don't file flight plans, don't have transponders switched on, don't talk to ATC and don't even talk to the fighters that intercept them.

Well as I said its been seen ahead of QRA over Scotland on the west and eastern coasts, in the lost comms type QRA im as sure as you that she would get airborne after the Typhoons.

Primary radar picks up these aircraft regardless.

prinzeugen wrote: »

If Ireland needed QRA jets, I think they would be more for chasing civil aircraft with lost com's etc.

I don't think we need them, if anything we need a proper rotary force, the the RAF do the QRA as they are now.

preacher2 · 27-03-2018 12:25am

Lets be real, neutral or not we need some sort of actual defense otherwise we are not a defense force but a ceremonial military at best. Our navy's job is basically to make sure there arent foreign fishing trawlers in our seas and the Navy is the only branch that actually does anything.

We control a very important airspace and sea (we COULD control but dont have the equipment to do so).

The North Atlantic into Europe is ours to defend. It is our duty. Neutral or not evil doesnt go away. We need to un-neutral ourselves, fight terrorism, fight evil, deploy troops, deploy our SOF to do special operations, we need jets that can actually go faster than an airliner.

Now I understand we cant have a massive military, however we can have around 3 to 4 jets.

I personally dont see why its so hard. We have a duty to do as a member of the UN Nordic Battlegroup. We need to make sure that our airspace and seas are controlled at all times.

thomil · 27-03-2018 11:47pm

preacher2 wrote: »

Now I understand we cant have a massive military, however we can have around 3 to 4 jets.

.

While I agree with the general tenor of your post, I have to disagree with this, 3-4 jets are not enough to ensure even a rudimentary intercept capability. Let me explain why.

First of all, modern air combat tactics are generally geared towards two-aircraft formations as the basic element of most tactics and procedures, including intercepts. The FAA procedures below are an example:

https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2015/media/Intercept-Procedures.pdf

So, going from that, any scramble & intercept would have to be done by two aircraft, one to conduct the actual signalling, and another to stay back, monitor the situation, and cover the first aircraft if needed. However, with two aircraft already engaged on an intercept, you would need two more to take their place, in case another situation comes up, until the two active aircraft have returned, and have been serviced, and refuelled. You could spin this further, but for the sake of simplicity, lets work with four aircraft always ready to go. Given that the serviceability of modern fighters rarely exceeds 50-60% from what I've read in multiple sources, you'd need at least eight aircraft just in order to have four aircraft ready to go at any time.

Then there's the issue of pilots, and ensuring that they have enough flight time in whatever fighter aircraft would be used to be of use in any intercept situation that happens to turn "hot". First of all, having one pilot per aircraft is not enough. You can't just have a pilot sitting on standby next to his or her aircraft 24 hours a day, day in day out. So, by necessity, there's going to be more pilots per airplanes. The interceptors are going to be on stand-by 24/7, so we're going to have a crew change at least every 24 hours. In order to allow sufficient rest times, we should look at 3 pilots per interceptor, so for two active and two spare interceptors, we're at 12 pilots, to ensure proper staffing and proper rest.

However, pilots can't actually get any flying time during intercept duty, except during an actual intercept. Ideally, a pilot should be looking at flying at least 150 hours a year to retain his combat proficiency, as stated in the article below:

http://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2016/11/fighter-pilots-arent-flying-enough-hone-skills-full-spectrum-war/133328/

That works out to about three sorties per week. Anything less, and pilots tend to loose their skills. Sure, some flying can be done in simulator, but there's no substitute for actual flying. Given what we've learned above with regards to fighter tactics, you'd want at least enough aircraft for some 2-on-2 training dogfights, which means another four aircraft, now we're up to twelve in total. These don't need to be active 24/7, so I'm not calculating in any additional spares. However, we should calculate at least some rudimentary CAP (Combat Air Patrol) capability for high profile events, as well as for training with the other components of the Defence Forces, the army, and the navy. Let's be a bit miserly and calculate two for each, and we're up to 16 fighters, which is the approximate size of your average fighter squadron.

Now bear in mind that this squadron is actually quite rudimentary in its capabilities, it is geared towards interceptions and combat air patrols, with only very limited availability for air-to-ground operations, and little to no power projection ability. In addition, I'd advise against basing such a squadron at Baldonnel, for no other reason than that the noise of two fighter aircraft with afterburners conducting a nighttime scramble would probably wake up half of Dublin, so ideally, we'd be looking at a completely new base as well, or at least at grafting an airbase onto an existing airport such as Knock.

Still, I'd love to see something like this implemented, if for no other reason than for watching a certain section of the Daíl get a heart attack once the plans are revealed.

prinzeugen · 28-03-2018 12:52am

Pilots could train/exchange (secondment) with other air forces to keep hours up and learn.

For example, some Royal Navy ex-harrier crew deployed with the US Navy and flew F-18s from carriers and are now trainers on the F-35 for UK pilots.

Irish crew could go on secondment to a air force that uses the same equipment that the Air Corp was intending to use.

If it was to happen, it would take years.

Ireland might get away with 7 leased F-16. (2 flights of 3 + 1 maintenance spare)

thomil · 28-03-2018 4:59pm

Exchange postings will certainly take place, but that is not a solution to keep all pilots up to date. Remember that article I posted. Three sorties a week per pilot, 150 hours per year, that's what is needed to keep pilots trained and operating at the top of their game. To ensure that, Irish pilots would have to spend most of their flying lives apart from sitting on Interceptor duty abroad, and that is something that is just not going to happen.

The Royal Navy example you mentioned is not a valid model for Ireland. It is only meant as a temporary measure while the Fleet Air Arm and Royal Air Force get their F-35 squadrons up to speed, and the US Navy and Marines agreed to it on this basis. Besides, the amount of pilots taking part in this exchange is relatively low, sending almost one squadron's worth of pilots to another Air Force is just not going to fly, pardon the pun.

As for the F-16, despite the ongoing production, the basic frame is getting on in years, it's almost forty years old by now. While the design itself is pretty solid, it won't be able to keep up much longer. If we were to go for a fighter, my money would be on the Saab Gripen, Saab certainly has enough experience providing a baseline intercept capability to countries, they're doing it for the Czech Republic and Hungary respectively. If Ireland does decide to go down that path, that model should be one to emulate. I agree, it will take years even in the best of circumstances, though.

jonnybigwallet · 28-03-2018 7:27pm

Good posts coming through now. Thanks all....and bring on the Gripens or maybe the Scorpions?

thomil · 28-03-2018 8:49pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Good posts coming through now. Thanks all....and bring on the Gripens or maybe the Scorpions?

Gripen all the way for me please

Seriously though, you'll need an aircraft that'll be able to get up to altitude and to an unidentified aircraft within the shortest possible time, and the Scorpion just doesn't have the performance for that. I wouldn't mind seeing a squadron of those complement the PC-9s as an advanced trainer aircraft/light attack aircraft, but that would REALLY be cloud cuckoo land

sparky42 · 28-03-2018 8:50pm

Lads, as I've said before there is a crap load of areas that the AC needs to deal with long before FJ's are even on the menu (from the Helicopters, to the MPA, to just the cultural issues that has created historic issues), and there's nothing in the budget for the rest of the WP period.

Mahony0509 · 28-03-2018 9:06pm

Our airspace is some of the most important in the world. Almost every single flight from Europe/Northern Asia to America flies over Ireland. God forbidding if anything ever happened to any of those airliner overhead, what're we gonna do? Send a little propeller plane 40,000 feet upwards or depend on the Brits ffs. One or two jets would be plenty for us.

jonnybigwallet · 28-03-2018 9:07pm

I blame it all on Ryanair...for stealing all our best pilots

sparky42 · 28-03-2018 10:27pm

Mahony0509 wrote: »

Our airspace is some of the most important in the world. Almost every single flight from Europe/Northern Asia to America flies over Ireland. God forbidding if anything ever happened to any of those airliner overhead, what're we gonna do? Send a little propeller plane 40,000 feet upwards or depend on the Brits ffs. One or two jets would be plenty for us.

No it wouldn't, any basic knowledge would tell you that, to maintain any level of a QRA Ireland would need the better part of 12-16, this is to take into account those that are in the hanger in maintenance, those that are being used for training and certification and then those that maybe used. That's on top of the need for actual Active Radar systems so we'd know about anyone being of the West Coast. Also add in needing to increase the AC numbers by at least half if not doubling the manpower levels...

Take a look at the DF budget as % of GDP (and the Capital Spend within that) and realise that what's being suggested here is a none runner.

roadmaster · 28-03-2018 10:54pm

sparky42 wrote: »

No it wouldn't, any basic knowledge would tell you that, to maintain any level of a QRA Ireland would need the better part of 12-16, this is to take into account those that are in the hanger in maintenance, those that are being used for training and certification and then those that maybe used. That's on top of the need for actual Active Radar systems so we'd know about anyone being of the West Coast. Also add in needing to increase the AC numbers by at least half if not doubling the manpower levels...

Take a look at the DF budget as % of GDP (and the Capital Spend within that) and realise that what's being suggested here is a none runner.

I think getting a more substantial helicopter wing and expanding MPA aircraft are a lot more important

sparky42 · 28-03-2018 11:07pm

roadmaster wrote: »

I think getting a more substantial helicopter wing and expanding MPA aircraft are a lot more important

Totally agree with you, more helicopter capability to both be used out of the State on UN/EU missions and to be able to support a large enough lift of the Rangers for terror situations we might face (and enough to have one based at the Curragh full time), and yeah MPA's (ideally I'd have 4-6 both to be able to carry out more effective MPA of the coast and also be able to have a unit available for International operations...

roadmaster · 28-03-2018 11:25pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Totally agree with you, more helicopter capability to both be used out of the State on UN/EU missions and to be able to support a large enough lift of the Rangers for terror situations we might face (and enough to have one based at the Curragh full time), and yeah MPA's (ideally I'd have 4-6 both to be able to carry out more effective MPA of the coast and also be able to have a unit available for International operations...

Are large helicopters needed for rangers. When you see other special forces being deployed in urban areas they seem to use small enough helicopters. The British last year in London used a dauphin I think

sparky42 · 28-03-2018 11:37pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Are large helicopters needed for rangers. When you see other special forces being deployed in urban areas they seem to use small enough helicopters. The British last year in London used a dauphin I think

I suppose it depends, I'd guess for instance you have a lot more armed officers in London as a baseline over what the Gardaí could field in Dublin on an emergency situation, but to me just being able to move several squads in one lift to say Baldonnel and then redeploy rather than the limited lift we have with the 139's as is (I mean from memory don't the SAS have some troops based around London for a quick response reaction rather than coming from further out like the Rangers would have to do?). And for regular Army usage something heavier would be more useful across the board.

jonnybigwallet · 31-03-2018 9:04am

A small fleet of Apache attack helicopters would come in a bit handy for exercises in the Glen of Imall and could be useful on overseas ops ad well.

Atoms for Peace · 31-03-2018 9:12am

ted1 wrote: »

You clearly have no ideas of the role of the Aer corp.

Flying Leo to Brussels?

jonnybigwallet · 31-03-2018 1:34pm

Of course I do. Look at the title of this thread. What is under discussion is giving the boys a meaningful role, because their equipment is rather simple at present. My proposal is a gradual upgrading of the capability.
Phase 1. Acquire 8 jet trainers / ground attack aircraft...such as Hawk or Scorpion or that Italian jobby. This provides an upgrade path for skill set.
Phase 2. New powerful radar equipment and establish a bolt on base at Knock Airport complete with bomb proof aircraft shelters. Also needed at Baldonnel.
Phase 2 b & c. Acquire 4 Apache attack helicopters to support army and one of them new Embraer troop transporters to support ops in the Lebanon. Could also be fitted with 30mm Cannon as a helicopter gunship.
Phase 4. Acquire 12 Gripen Intercepters once the lads have developed their skills on jets. To defend airspace post Brexit.

Might as well buy a decent replacement for the governments as well.

That seems like a reasonable amount for a small nation to have as an Air Force that is more than a gentleman's flying club. Even Zimbabwe has a better Air Force than Ireland.

jonnybigwallet · 31-03-2018 1:39pm

Correction...meant to say gunship....not helicopter gunship. By the way. I like the kit they have just purchased. The PC 12's. And the new CASA 's as well. Time to spend some decent cash to restore national pride and morale in the Corps. There should be plenty of money coming down the track now that the Barryroe Offshore Oil and Gas field is finally going forward.

4068ac1elhodqr · 31-03-2018 2:33pm

Surely a few UAVs would be the cheapest option, 24/7 availability just a bit of training on the joystick.

dasa29 · 31-03-2018 3:15pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Of course I do. Look at the title of this thread. What is under discussion is giving the boys a meaningful role, because their equipment is rather simple at present. My proposal is a gradual upgrading of the capability.
Phase 1. Acquire 8 jet trainers / ground attack aircraft...such as Hawk or Scorpion or that Italian jobby. This provides an upgrade path for skill set.
Phase 2. New powerful radar equipment and establish a bolt on base at Knock Airport complete with bomb proof aircraft shelters. Also needed at Baldonnel.
Phase 2 b & c. Acquire 4 Apache attack helicopters to support army and one of them new Embraer troop transporters to support ops in the Lebanon. Could also be fitted with 30mm Cannon as a helicopter gunship.
Phase 4. Acquire 12 Gripen Intercepters once the lads have developed their skills on jets. To defend airspace post Brexit.

Might as well buy a decent replacement for the governments as well.

That seems like a reasonable amount for a small nation to have as an Air Force that is more than a gentleman's flying club. Even Zimbabwe has a better Air Force than Ireland.

some of this seems good but in phase 2 i would not establish a bolt on base at knock, instead i would buy the closed galway airport and turn it in to a new base. I would buy 12 jet fighters plus 4 trainer versions, i would also buy 4 casa and base all 6 in the new base. we also buy 2 to 4 transports to be based between the new base and Baldonnel.

In regards the jet fighters i would buy twin engined jets or ones with good range. don't forget unless we get aircraft that can do inflight refueling or buddy tanks used by trainers.

jonnybigwallet · 31-03-2018 3:26pm

Interesting idea that. Of course the Scorpion is twin engined but sub mach speed. Maybe a half dozen CASA would work better than the 2 CASA already on order and my proposed Embraer heavy lifter transport. Waterford airport is almost shut down to commercial traffic these days as well but I agree a base on the West coast is needed.

Reati · 31-03-2018 3:39pm

Winter Melodic Beehive wrote: »

Surely a few UAVs would be the cheapest option, 24/7 availability just a bit of training on the joystick.

Drones are not that easy to fly but yes they should be where the Air Corp go. The cost is in the systems to fly them and keep them up in the air. Example, they use secure Satellites for the video, telemetry and control feeds. Those are not something we have so we'd need to invest or rent or whatever others do.

Reati · 31-03-2018 3:47pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

That seems like a reasonable amount for a small nation to have as an Air Force that is more than a gentleman's flying club. Even Zimbabwe has a better Air Force than Ireland.

But we don't need any of this. We don't need to protect our airspace militarily post brexit the same as we don't need to protect it now. The only country that has and might again come into our airspace is Russia who have about 400 - 500 jets. I don't think 12 Gripen Intercepters will be much use if they decide to attack. Indeed, even post Brexit, the Brits would get involved very quickly as it would be in their interest too. Outside of all that, the if's and but's it takes to get to a point where an attack is launched against us that justifies the costs of what would be a ceremonial attempt at air defence using jets just don't line up.

The air corps have a small mission set that doesn't require jets. It's just fantasist to justify wasting money on new toys when they have well documented manpower issues. The DOD need to figure out what we need to keep the air corp for and then re-structure around those key operational needs. Then discuss the airframe needs.

4068ac1elhodqr · 31-03-2018 4:08pm

Reati wrote: »

Drones are not that easy to fly but yes they should be where the Air Corp go. The cost is in the systems to fly them and keep them up in the air. Example, they use secure Satellites for the video, telemetry and control feeds. Those are not something we have so we'd need to invest or rent or whatever others do.

Seems to be the way forward, as with most things the auto-pilot auto-bots will do a better job than humans in the future.

The big ones can go up (and stay there) for about 8 days, ideal for surveillance (without coffee, or toilet breaks). Even the smaller ones have a range of 1,800miles.

The future is all about very high altitude and space itself. Lasers, pulses and everything generally happening at hypersonic speeds.

Even a basic UAV may be able to spot something fishy sailing in, then introduce the human aspect via chopper to board it. If it's something more significant, send out an low energy pulse or sub-launch a swarm, to photograph and buzz it.

roadmaster · 31-03-2018 4:15pm

I am going to go out on a limb here but before we go getting gunships how about we pay the men and women of Óglaigh na hÉireann a proper wage first, it’s just a silly idea I have!

Reati · 31-03-2018 4:15pm

Winter Melodic Beehive wrote: »

Seems to be the way forward, as with most things the auto-pilot auto-bots will do a better job than humans in the future.

The big ones can go up (and stay there) for about 8 days, ideal for surveillance (without coffee, or toilet breaks). Even the smaller ones have a range of 1,800miles.

The future is all about very high altitude and space itself. Lasers, pulses and everything generally happening at hypersonic speeds.

Even a basic UAV may be able to spot something fishy sailing in, then introduce the human aspect via chopper to board it. If it's something more significant, send out an low energy pulse or sub-launch a swarm, to photograph and buzz it.

Totally, in fact in the US the DHS use unarmed drones to policing of the border along Mexico. It's exactly where they should be going for the maritime patrol and surveillance roles they do.

Psychlops · 31-03-2018 8:40pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

And the new CASA 's as well.

There are as yet NO Casa's on order, the Casa's are due to be replaced but there is nothing on order.

Psychlops · 31-03-2018 8:43pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

than the 2 CASA already on order and my proposed Embraer heavy lifter transport.

NO Casa's on order....

Why do you want that Embraer? Just because it did a PR flight at Bal? The KC390 is not a heavy lifter either, it is the heaviest aircraft Embraer have though.

sparky42 · 31-03-2018 8:43pm

This thread is the gift that keeps on giving at this stage.

jonnybigwallet · 01-04-2018 5:41am

Drones only have a top speed of about 250 mph. They are only useful for surveillance and for taking pot shots at them Taliban / Isis / Al Quada fellahs scarpering along in the desert in a land cruiser. By comparison the PC9m aircraft does about 350 to 400 mph. The Scorpion about 450 to 500 mph and the Gripen about Mach2...ie around 1400 to 1500 mph. So something like a Scorpion of Hawk is capable of ground attack in a military theatre. The Gripen is the sort of aircraft you need to see off any hostile foreign military aircraft because it's high speed can get it there quickly.

jonnybigwallet · 01-04-2018 5:49am

By the way...I didn't realize the KC 390 did a demo at Baldonnel. Impressive bit of kit imo. I've flown quite a lot on the Embraer passenger airliners that BA operate out of London City Airport. Great plane! And their Tucano trainer / light attack plane has been a great success. The KC 390 is picking up quite a few orders in South America and Boeing are very interested in getting involved in the programme.

Reati · 01-04-2018 11:45am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Drones only have a top speed of about 250 mph. They are only useful for surveillance and for taking pot shots at them Taliban / Isis / Al Quada fellahs scarpering along in the desert in a land cruiser. By comparison the PC9m aircraft does about 350 to 400 mph. The Scorpion about 450 to 500 mph and the Gripen about Mach2...ie around 1400 to 1500 mph. So something like a Scorpion of Hawk is capable of ground attack in a military theatre. The Gripen is the sort of aircraft you need to see off any hostile foreign military aircraft because it's high speed can get it there quickly.

Yes, because drones are used for surveillance. They don't need to be that fast.

Anyway, where are all these hostile foreign aircraft that are a constant threat to neutral Irish airspace coming from? Russia? because again 12 jet's isn't going to be much of a threat to an airforce with over 500 jets and 3200 airframes in total.

You seem to be convinced that we need expensive jets because one can buy expensive jets and we need to "give the boys something interesting to do" ignoring there is little desire from the Irish public on a wider scale to pay for these kinds of things given the fact we can't get our **** together in housing, education and health.

Aren't they even struggling to keep the people in the AC who want to be there due to wages? Most of the lads I know fecked off to commercial airlines or fly film drones now.

jonnybigwallet · 01-04-2018 1:19pm

Interesting point of view!

sparky42 · 01-04-2018 1:42pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

By the way...I didn't realize the KC 390 did a demo at Baldonnel. Impressive bit of kit imo. I've flown quite a lot on the Embraer passenger airliners that BA operate out of London City Airport. Great plane! And their Tucano trainer / light attack plane has been a great success. The KC 390 is picking up quite a few orders in South America and Boeing are very interested in getting involved in the programme.

The KC 390 is getting orders in South America because it's a South American project, but given Brazil's economic issues who knows what the end order will be or the development (do remember building commercial aircraft doesn't mean much see A400). Moreover just like the suggestion of the Scorpion, NO. No part of the DF should ever be thinking about being one of the first users of a platform EVER.

If we wanted airlift, there's plenty of options C130 for example, or just buying into the common airlift program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Air_Transport_Command

Your suggestion of the Apache's is another no runner for many reasons that shouldn't need to be pointed out.

Idbatterim · 01-04-2018 1:47pm

I jumped from the first page to here. This “more taxes” bull*. The government have billions to send up in smoke for budget 2019. There is no need for extra taxes ...

twinytwo · 01-04-2018 2:00pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Of course I do. Look at the title of this thread. What is under discussion is giving the boys a meaningful role, because their equipment is rather simple at present. My proposal is a gradual upgrading of the capability.
Phase 1. Acquire 8 jet trainers / ground attack aircraft...such as Hawk or Scorpion or that Italian jobby. This provides an upgrade path for skill set.
Phase 2. New powerful radar equipment and establish a bolt on base at Knock Airport complete with bomb proof aircraft shelters. Also needed at Baldonnel.
Phase 2 b & c. Acquire 4 Apache attack helicopters to support army and one of them new Embraer troop transporters to support ops in the Lebanon. Could also be fitted with 30mm Cannon as a helicopter gunship.
Phase 4. Acquire 12 Gripen Intercepters once the lads have developed their skills on jets. To defend airspace post Brexit.

Might as well buy a decent replacement for the governments as well.

That seems like a reasonable amount for a small nation to have as an Air Force that is more than a gentleman's flying club. Even Zimbabwe has a better Air Force than Ireland.

But can you justify the above? Cost benefit analysis would say not.

Buying the aircraft is the cheap part.

8 Scorpions = aprrox 150 million
4 apache = somewhere between 100 and 240 million
12 gripens = somewhere between 360 and 720 million

All this against a defense budget of about 900 million (of which half is gone on pay and pensions) And that is just the initial cost. The 4 apaches alone would cost in the region of 200,000 euro per hour to operate.

Think about that - even if the apaches were only run 10 hours a week for 50 weeks of the year - thats 100 million.

sparky42 · 01-04-2018 2:00pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I jumped from the first page to here. This “more taxes” bull*. The government have billions to send up in smoke for budget 2019. There is no need for extra taxes ...

Which department (and the far more powerful lobbies they have) are you going to take the money from?

Idbatterim · 01-04-2018 2:46pm

sparky42 wrote: »

Which department (and the far more powerful lobbies they have) are you going to take the money from?

I’m not taking it. They would simply receive less of a budget increase. Ireland is a rich country. We have world class welfare, pensions, ps pay and pensions. Can’t even defend our own airspace however. The way it’s portrayed here, you’d swear it it was famine times and a few jets was going to result in starvation for the masses ...

sparky42 · 01-04-2018 2:54pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

I’m not taking it. They would simply receive less of a budget increase. Ireland is a rich country. We have worked class welfare, pensions, ps pay and pensions. Can’t even defend our own airspace however. The way it’s outraged here, you’d swear it it was famine times and a few jets was going to result in starvation for the masses ...

Again, all the sectors you are dismissing have a vastly larger lobby group and public support than the DF, no Irish politician will lose votes ignoring the DF, they will lose votes on education, health, welfare, pay. That's the reality, to bring the DF up to even 1% means over a billion extra spending (above the planned Capital spend already planned), finding that without paying a political price will still be hard.

Leonidas BL · 05-04-2018 7:23pm

Why not lease aircraft like Czech Republic and Hungary?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/czech-government-signs-gripen-lease-extension-399415/

sparky42 · 05-04-2018 7:40pm

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Why not lease aircraft like Czech Republic and Hungary?

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/czech-government-signs-gripen-lease-extension-399415/

While that would handle the upfront costs, I would think we'd face a lot more costs than they did, remember they are just replacing Soviet Union hardware with Western systems, were as we'd have to create all that, I mean how much would the manpower/training have to increase just to sustain any reasonable level of readiness in the planes?

Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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