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If you are driving for work, you’re at work ?
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Wishbone Ash wrote: »I'm a bit puzzled by the comments regarding workplace location being on a contract.
I'd imagine thats reasonably rare. Every contact I've ever signed (government agency, multinational and SME) has had something along the lines of 'your employer's place of business is xxx (address of the specific office if the employer had multiple, even in Dublin). You may be required to travel to alternative locations at the request of your employer and will be reimbursed for this'
Quite a few of them have also had 'Your employer may decide to move you to another reasonable location. If this happens, you are not entitled to compensation'0 -
I've previously rung a company to complain their driver behaviour - gave them reg details and where and when incident happened and asked they speak to the driver. I know they probably rolled their eyes and had a laugh when I hung up but on the other hand that driver may already had a warning 're driving so this may have had an impact - I will never know but felt better after reporting it. He very nearly caused a horrible accident all for want of trying to rush ahead in rush hour traffic- it made no difference in the end to whether he saved time or not but I will never forget the utter stupidity and selfishness of his dangerous overtakingAndrewJRenko wrote: »I'm frequently amazed by the businesses who invest big money in branding their vans and trucks, but don't seem to give a thought to driver behaviour. So you have drivers bombing around with the company name writ large on the side, with the phone in one or two hands or held to the ear as they speed around cutting up other drivers.0 -
Sorry to resurrect but does anyone know if the government have done anything about the ECJ decision, as far as I now some of our laws disagreed with it. I know our courts have to interpret our laws with regard to European rulings, just wondering if there was something 'official'.0
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Sorry to resurrect but does anyone know if the government have done anything about the ECJ decision, as far as I now some of our laws disagreed with it. I know our courts have to interpret our laws with regard to European rulings, just wondering if there was something 'official'.
There was no need for Irish laws to be amended to comply with the Tyco case as they didn't conflict with it.0 -
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I understood (internet research only) that there was an issue with the wages act and calculating working hours.
The RSA campaign which spurred this thread,arose from the increasing concerns regarding Class 2 (Vocational) drivers using their work vehicles for commuting.
A Truck driver parking up in a Depot,dropping the Trailer,and then commuting home in the Tractor Unit,usually Off The Tacho.
With the ever increasing sprawl of Irish Cities,this "Out-Of-Scope" driving,when added to the actual days driving work,could see a Driver heading in the direction of Fatigue,particularly if repeated over a prolonged period.
With most Operators actively seeking to maximize Driver productivity,dressed up under terms such as "Driver Optimization","Lean Management", or "Continuous Improvement",the actual hours when Drivers are required to be behind the wheel have rocketed.
This,without doubt,is leading to the types of Dangerous Driving issues often raised on this forum and elsewhere.
Regularly rostering Truck,Bus & Coach drivers to spread their Driving day over 11-14 hour durations,may well make excellent sense to the Company's Chief Financial Officer,but will inevitably lead to ever more serious accidents,and high Staff turnover.
This accountancy-driven attitude towards Commercial Driving,flies in the face of well known Human Factor issues,particularly relating to fatigue and pressure management.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVVVFXfJo0
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5536135/Passengers-stage-mutiny-Greyhound-bus-driver-falls-asleep.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/traumatised-bus-driver-fell-asleep-7705335
The types of Rotas now widespread across the Irish Transport Industry,are virtually all now created from a Management Efficiency perspective,and have little or no concern for the fact that the Drivers concerned could be hauling 40+ tonnes or up to 80+ Human Passengers.
The RSA and other relavant authorities are well aware of the situation,but remain unwilling to take any action which could be seen as "increasing costs".
It is a very serious situation...a real ticking timebomb :mad:Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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The RSA and other relavant authorities are well aware of the situation,but remain unwilling to take any action which could be seen as "increasing costs".
It is a very serious situation...a real ticking timebomb :mad:
This is my area of concern, working in sales in service, we have an office but I'm mostly road based - direct from home to customer covering the country, not unusual to drive from Navan to Cork and back same day, could be off to Donegal the next, workload has increased dramatically of late and I'm often on the road 5 days (or 6) per week, long days sometimes 7am to 8pm (or later), was just wondering where I stood.0 -
I understood (internet research only) that there was an issue with the wages act and calculating working hours.
Have a look here:-
https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2017-02-28a.21370 -
This is my area of concern, working in sales in service, we have an office but I'm mostly road based - direct from home to customer covering the country, not unusual to drive from Navan to Cork and back same day, could be off to Donegal the next, workload has increased dramatically of late and I'm often on the road 5 days (or 6) per week, long days sometimes 7am to 8pm (or later), was just wondering where I stood.
If you are going to the office you are travelling to work, if you are visiting a client even when leaving from your home you are travelling for work.0 -
Ah sure, what are you moaning about? Sure isn't Verona Murphy on the case of the really important safety issues - pushing for the group of road users that don't kill people to get penalty points and hi-vis jackets? Sure that's almost certain to save at least zero lives in the coming year - what more would you want?The RSA campaign which spurred this thread,arose from the increasing concerns regarding Class 2 (Vocational) drivers using their work vehicles for commuting.
A Truck driver parking up in a Depot,dropping the Trailer,and then commuting home in the Tractor Unit,usually Off The Tacho.
With the ever increasing sprawl of Irish Cities,this "Out-Of-Scope" driving,when added to the actual days driving work,could see a Driver heading in the direction of Fatigue,particularly if repeated over a prolonged period.
With most Operators actively seeking to maximize Driver productivity,dressed up under terms such as "Driver Optimization","Lean Management", or "Continuous Improvement",the actual hours when Drivers are required to be behind the wheel have rocketed.
This,without doubt,is leading to the types of Dangerous Driving issues often raised on this forum and elsewhere.
Regularly rostering Truck,Bus & Coach drivers to spread their Driving day over 11-14 hour durations,may well make excellent sense to the Company's Chief Financial Officer,but will inevitably lead to ever more serious accidents,and high Staff turnover.
This accountancy-driven attitude towards Commercial Driving,flies in the face of well known Human Factor issues,particularly relating to fatigue and pressure management.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAVVVFXfJo0
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5536135/Passengers-stage-mutiny-Greyhound-bus-driver-falls-asleep.html
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/traumatised-bus-driver-fell-asleep-7705335
The types of Rotas now widespread across the Irish Transport Industry,are virtually all now created from a Management Efficiency perspective,and have little or no concern for the fact that the Drivers concerned could be hauling 40+ tonnes or up to 80+ Human Passengers.
The RSA and other relavant authorities are well aware of the situation,but remain unwilling to take any action which could be seen as "increasing costs".
It is a very serious situation...a real ticking timebomb :mad:
A cynic might think that it is a 'Look Over There' diversionary PR tactic, but I'd never believe anything like that.0 -
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There are several different issues about here, and they don't all have the same legal or practical answers.
1) Total hours behind the wheel for commercial drivers (ie people who drive all day) are increasing with urban sprawl: a bus driver may be rostered to drive for 11 (or whatever) hours, but have another hour on each end to get to/from home. Easy fix is to require drivers to live within Nkm of their depot or to not drive themselves to/from work - but it would make the labour supply tighter and so put wages up.
2) The stress of driving for people who do work at sites some distance from their home - eg technicians, property managers, housing officers, social workers, sales reps, area managers - lots of roles. Employers should have policies and training in place to make sure that such people travel safely back to their base - and that they are covered by appropriate insurance when driving.
3) Also for the group in 2), there's a question of what allowances can be paid. This where the Revenue rules may be different from the Health and Safety ones, eg Revenue says you cannot claim an overnight stay within Xkm of home, H&S says you cannot drive home within Y hours of doing certain traumatic jobs. [I have no idea if that's a real example - but I'm sure there are ones like that.]
4) Also there's the question of total working hours vs paid working hours. You're considered to be "at work" while driving from a customer site back to base - but not all employment contracts pay you for those hours. This isn't necessarily illegal - it depends if the rate for your paid hours is high enough to average out to more than the minimum wage for actual hours.An extreme case is cabin crew who are only paid while their plane is actually in the air.
5) There are limits on the number of hours you are allowed to work on average, too, and even time "at work" which isn't specifically paid may be counted. Also, these rules may contradict H&S: if may be safer for someone to take a break for an hour before driving home - but doing so may mean their "at work" hours go too high.
6) Paying the costs of travel is also interesting. Revenue have certain rules - sometimes payments are taxable, meaning that someone on more than 35k effectively gets paid lower expenses that someone on under that, for the same journey.
7) Smokefree workplaces also kick in here: if you're at work while travelling in your car between customer sites, it's illegal to be smoking in the car - even if it's safe to do so (eg you're parked somehwere). People really hate this rule.
I'm sure I've missed some .....0 -
I work in private sector and while my contract says my normal place of work is our Cork Office, the truth is as a consultant I'm either onsite in customer location or I work out of home. I only work out home with clients agreement and my manager has told me that he does not mind where I work, Starbucks, home, a cow shed. onsite as long as the work gets done. I have a company car given the large amount of travel I do and I rarely if ever go to our actual office that is stated on my contract as my normal place of work. The truth is if I did go there until some staff are on leave its quite likely there will be no desk for me. So I only go maybe once or twice per year for a meeting or company function.
Because my employer wants me to be clocking up billable hours it does mean they expect me to be onsite at the start of the business day and stay until COB. So for example if I have to work a day in Dublin I'm leaving home at 5:30, working a full day at a customer location and getting home at 9:00 or 10 at night. Or perhaps I travel the night before and they provide hotel accommodation. Would I be right in thinking that my travel time spent getting to customer sites should be considered towards clocking up my contracted 39 hour week? It seems to me that I may not be entitled to extra pay, i.e. overtime but I should be entitled to some time in lieu.0 -
I work in private sector and while my contract says my normal place of work is our Cork Office, the truth is as a consultant I'm either onsite in customer location or I work out of home. I only work out home with clients agreement and my manager has told me that he does not mind where I work, Starbucks, home, a cow shed. onsite as long as the work gets done. I have a company car given the large amount of travel I do and I rarely if ever go to our actual office that is stated on my contract as my normal place of work. The truth is if I did go there until some staff are on leave its quite likely there will be no desk for me. So I only go maybe once or twice per year for a meeting or company function.
Because my employer wants me to be clocking up billable hours it does mean they expect me to be onsite at the start of the business day and stay until COB. So for example if I have to work a day in Dublin I'm leaving home at 5:30, working a full day at a customer location and getting home at 9:00 or 10 at night. Or perhaps I travel the night before and they provide hotel accommodation. Would I be right in thinking that my travel time spent getting to customer sites should be considered towards clocking up my contracted 39 hour week? It seems to me that I may not be entitled to extra pay, i.e. overtime but I should be entitled to some time in lieu.
In my consulting days, it would have been a bit of give and take. I'd often have early starts 6am or 7am, but I wouldn't always be on site for 9am, or waiting till 5.30pm to leave. So the travel would often be split between personal time and work time.
It would be quite dangerous to have you doing long drives to/from sites on top of a full working day on a regular basis.0 -
I work in private sector and while my contract says my normal place of work is our Cork Office, the truth is as a consultant I'm either onsite in customer location or I work out of home. I only work out home with clients agreement and my manager has told me that he does not mind where I work, Starbucks, home, a cow shed. onsite as long as the work gets done. I have a company car given the large amount of travel I do and I rarely if ever go to our actual office that is stated on my contract as my normal place of work. The truth is if I did go there until some staff are on leave its quite likely there will be no desk for me. So I only go maybe once or twice per year for a meeting or company function.
Because my employer wants me to be clocking up billable hours it does mean they expect me to be onsite at the start of the business day and stay until COB. So for example if I have to work a day in Dublin I'm leaving home at 5:30, working a full day at a customer location and getting home at 9:00 or 10 at night. Or perhaps I travel the night before and they provide hotel accommodation. Would I be right in thinking that my travel time spent getting to customer sites should be considered towards clocking up my contracted 39 hour week? It seems to me that I may not be entitled to extra pay, i.e. overtime but I should be entitled to some time in lieu.
How far do you live from the Cork office? How long would your commute be if you were attending for work there? I would say you should allow that commute time as your own time and anything over that travelling to a client is work time. If your employer doesn't like that, you could say that working from home means you're on company time as soon as you cross your door.
Use those arguments to make a case for an agreed charging method...0
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